Why do people hate Howard Dean?

[Cascadian]

Seriously. Why are there people who hate this man so much? I do not understand what the big problem is. He should be a dream candidate for the Democrats. Just like Clinton, he was a governor of a rural state, a Washington outsider, has an excellent track record as governor of Vermont, also is a straight shooter and stands up to George W. Bush. Is it the fact that he does not play the DNC and DLC line?


What gives?

John

[jpgray]

1. I don't know. Consult the 50,000 "I hate Kerry" threads for comparison?

[ibegurpard]

2. Here's a few reasons:

He has been able to amass support and funding outside of the party power-brokers. He came out of nowhere and stole the god-given right of John Kerry to be the nominee when he fully expected to garner Gore's support.

[leyton]

12. It could be that

he got grassroots support and lots of small donations and thus many (not all) of his supporters think that Dean is now entitled to the nomination yet. If Kerry is the nominee, it will be because he has gotten widespread support among the actual electorate (as opposed to those who devote the majority of their time/energy to political causes), which Dean hasn't matched.

[MaggieSwanson]

126. Dean's largest contributer is AOL/Time Warner.

That's enough reason to dislike him.

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?id=N00025663&cycle=2004

[wroberts189]

31. Haha

Good one.

[ShaneGR]

83. I don't hate or dislike Howard Dean.... but he can't beat Bush

So I won't support him. Plus I think he's hoodwinked a lot of his progressive supporters into thinking he's a liberal. He's not.

[blondeatlast]

109. That's why he is not my #1 choice; but, if he's the nominee, he gets

my vote.

[youngred]

113. Not quite

why don't you listen to what other people have to say about why they dislike your candidate rather than throwing down a everyone's jealous excuse for him. Perhaps you could learn how to fix his campaign constructively rather than hating everyone else

PS 'You' is general not specific

[ACPS65]

3. Simple.

Unelectable.

[pacifictiger]

100. unelectable?

by whose standards? Certainly not mine!! Or are you just parroting the media mantra. Before Bobby Kennedy was shot he was also being portrayed as angry, out of touch, etc. etc. because he meant change. This is a new era - don't by into "conventional" wisdom just because the pundits are not capable of doing anything else but making a career out of picking people apart.

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. JESUS

Nobody HATES Howard Dean. We just hate being invaded by his supporters in every thread and have them start trashing other candidates as if they think that really endears us to him.

Like, if you just tell us for the millionth time that he's the only one who stood up to Bush that'll make me fall in love with him.

Like if you just tell us one more time that Kerry voted for the IWR, we'll suddenly wake up and realize what horrible judgement we've used.

Like if you just tell us once more to not attack your candidate, while you simultaneously attack Kerry or Clark or Edwards.

It's just too much.

I like Dean, but his supporters are really making this process unenjoyable.

[Faygo Kid]

5. Where did this come from?

Who are you talking about "hating" Howard Dean, except the Repubs? He may not be first choice for everybody, but I respect the hell out of him for giving the Dems a good swift kick after the 2002 elections. Lots to like. He just isn't my top choice. That is a long way from "hatred."

[dawgman]

6. Don't like him because just like clinton he is a center to right of center

In liberal clothing. He is a candidate who got popular for taking a chance and saying what only two of the others were. He is stealing the newly invigorated Liberals away from the only TRUE lib in the race, DK.

on edit I really don't HATE him but think he is deceptively conservative.

[corporatewhore]

7. Ditto

[PROGRESSIVE1]

16. Agreed!

There are more liberal candidates in this race than Howard Dean and DK and Sharpton are the real liberals in this race.

[blm]

36. Bingo...but it was also his unfair attacks on the other candidates

and when he ramped up his attacks on Kerry while he was OFF the campaign trail dealing with his cancer.

The "Doctor" knew that stress is bad for recovery. He ramped UP his attacks then.

Dean's karma:

First phone attack

Straight-talking Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean is testing his attack message in Iowa. Political operatives say Dean's phone polling is probing for weaknesses in support for Sens. John Edwards and John Kerry and Rep. Dick Gephardt. For rookie pol Edwards, it's about experience. For Gephardt, it's his alliance with Bush on key issues. Questions about Kerry test Iowans' reaction to his vote backing the war in Iraq."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/archive/030512/12whisplead.php

From a USA Today, 4/29-29/03
Campaigns spar over remarks about military
By Jill Lawrence, USA TODAY

(full text at: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-04-28-dem-words_x.htm)

WASHINGTON — The only Democratic presidential candidate to regularly whack his rivals got a taste of his own tactics Monday and didn't like it...

...Until now, the competition has been relatively harmonious, at least for public consumption, with the exception of Dean. His attacks on fellow Democrats have been so cutting that sometimes the Republican National Committee e-mails them to party members. "Gephardt Plan: 'Pie-In-The-Sky Radical Revamping' " was the headline on one last week, quoting Dean.

Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina and Rep. Richard Gephardt of Missouri have been Dean targets in recent weeks. But Dean has reserved his sharpest thrusts for Kerry, repeatedly accusing him of selling out Democratic principles. The two men are virtually tied for the lead in polls in New Hampshire, which holds the critically important first primary election...

... Dean's remarks underscore his off-the-cuff style. In March, he accused Edwards and Kerry of softening their support for the Iraq war when they spoke to a dovish California crowd. But in reality, both had referred to their support and gotten booed. Edwards was furious and received an apology from Dean. Kerry said he deserved one but didn't get it.

After Gephardt proposed last week to roll back President Bush's tax cuts to pay for a major expansion of health coverage, Dean blasted him for wanting to repeal "huge tax cuts" he said Gephardt had supported. But Gephardt led the fight against the tax cuts passed in 2001.

The Gephardt campaign called Dean's release "factually incorrect." Thursday night, when both men were in Houston to address a black mayors group, Dean knocked on Gephardt's door. "I'm not going to go into what they said, but the governor did not apologize," Dean aide Kate O'Connor said.

***************************

[genius]

68. That's what upset me the most. But I didn't like his conservative

approach to issues.

[cushla_machree]

55. i agree

I do not "hate" howard dean. But how he continually says "Im the only canidate up here........" while conviently ignoring DK. Its insulting, the media all ready doesn't give the guy the time of day, a canidate to be doing it is almost too much.

I think he is more right of center than clinton ever was.

I think he is arrogant, and as far as electablility goes, that doesn't bode well for the south.

I don't like how he has sealed his records. it may be common practice, but it just reeks of something a republican would do. an honest politician should have no secrets. it appears to me he sealed them so bush couldn't get ammo at him, i think because hes not the liberal he pretends to be. but thats just my own opinion.

I don't like his environmental policy in vermont and how he was at odds with democrats.

i don't like his pro-business connections.

But I LOVE his ability to bring new democrats in and bring new life into the party. Democrats NEED him in that respect. but i wouldn't go so far as to say we need him as a president.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cushla_machree]

71. hahah

so true.

every dean supporter ive tried to argue with just gets vicious. just can't handle criticism at all. perhaps their support is all built up on illusions? The Dean supporter is a very curious thing.

[corporatewhore]

66. Yousummed up my feelings perfectly

[DemBones DemBones]

75. Very well said, and welcome to DU!

At first I thought Dean would be good for the party but he's truly been a divider not a uniter, except to unite his supporters against everyone else as if we are mere fleas in their universe.

Glad to have you here! :hi:

[DemBones DemBones]

74. Exactly! Dean has pretended to be far more liberal than he was

as governor of Vermont and he has lied, with collusion from the media, by saying he was the only candidate to speak out against the war. Dennis talked with Dean about it and Dean agreed not to do it anymore but soon was back at it.

I also dislike his cocksure arrogant manner. I know just what sort of doctor he was: the kind who makes a point of calling you by your first name and treats you like a not terribly bright child, even if you're older than he is, but would get very huffy with you if you called him "Howard." It's a bad attitude in a physician, worse in a politician. (He might allow you to call him DOCTOR Howard, since his wife is apparently called Dr. Judy by her patients.)

I always wondered why his supporters refer to him as "Governor Howard Dean, M.D." and finally found out that's how he signs letters. Now, I'm not positive, but I don't think it's correct to use both a title before your name and M.D. or Ph.D. or Esq. after your name.

[mitchum]

76. That's the one

and he's unelectable

[CTLawGuy]

92. so he is both too conservative and unelectable

:eyes: :eyes:

[mitchum]

97. You got it!

[corporatewhore]

107. unelectable to hardcore lefties

[youngred]

114. DING DING DING

we have a winner

[Freddie Stubbs]

124. Dean admits that he is a moderate (n/t)

[arewethereyet]

8. you're right, he should be a killer candidate

but he makes mistake after mistake, gaffe after gaffe. It all adds up and not in a good way.

By the way, its not "hate". Its either support or don't support and to what degree. Anyone talking hate should not be allowed to vote. And around here they probably are not allowed to vote. Lots of children around here.

[Julien Sorel]

9. I dislike people who allow propaganda

to do their thinking for them. Keep that thought in mind, re-read your post, and that's one reason I despise Dean: too many of his supporters accept Dean talking points as reality.

[Catholic Sensation]

10. Maybe when he calls other candidates "Republicans"

and refers to Democratic organizations as Republican organizations. Accusing someone of being a member of the GOP is simply mean and shouldn't be done.

[Hoppin_Mad]

11. Fear -nt-

[laruemtt]

17. i have to agree with fear.

i love dean, even though i'm for clark. he holds a very special place in my heart for the way he's energized this party and he's extremely courageous.

[dawgman]

21. you are darn right it is fear. Fear that we are being duped yet again.

An outsider who will end up just like the rest. How about some more helpings of the free trade and civil rights infringements that seem to follow these centrists around.

[youngred]

112. Afraid of what?

Howad Dean is not something to fear....George Bush is

[sasquatch]

13. Because the media tells them too

They reply BAH BAH BAH BAH, BAH BAH BAH. :eyes::evilgrin:

[AntiCoup2K4]

14. John, you answered your own question

...a Washington outsider, has an excellent track record as governor of Vermont, also is a straight shooter and stands up to George W. Bush. Is it the fact that he does not play the DNC and DLC line?

That's exactly why the 'Pukes and the DLC hate him. They have nobody to compete with him honestly, so they set up the media assassination.

And with Governor Dean's stated intentions on breaking up media monopolies, the corporate whores have their own reason to comply with the hit.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

63. Don't hate him but I don't think he's a straight shooter but pretends

to be one. He's a phony. He was one of the biggest corporate whores when he was Gov. of Vermont. It wouldn't bother me as much is he admitted to all this but he tries to pretend to be above it all.

[youngred]

116. and what about the real progressives?

why do they hate him? because they see a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Dean was DLC, and still shares their vision

[GreenArrow]

15. I dont hate him

I just think he's a phoney.

[lurk_no_more]

53. Bingo!

And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EllieDem]

20. People like Dean who insist everyone else be

"upfront and open" about everything.........then he turns around and won't unseal his own papers. That stuff makes our whole party look bad.

[asjr]

37. I am getting tired of

"won't unseal his papers." No governor does for years. When Shrub unseals his and his TANG papers then there can be a complaint. If that is all you have against Dean it pretty pathetic.

[zoeyfong]

58. And voting for an unjust, unwise war makes dems look good?

[ibegurpard]

24. As do some of the "followers" of any of the candidates.

I tried the high road for a while.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. I hear ya..as did I...

I fell off it this afternoon...can you help? :D

[ibegurpard]

46. Sorry, I can't

But I won't be attacking you anytime soon because you have a history of being very fair. :thumbsup:

[OKNancy]

40. You are too funny

and too right. I'm glad the mods are letting this go on.

[Peachhead22]

42. LOL!

I friggen love nothingshocksmeanymore's post!

[CWebster]

48. What was that?

That isn't allowed, is it?

[eileen_d]

19. "Dislike" is a more appropriate term

In general, I find his style and tone abrasive, which engenders my dislike. And to address your points:

he was a governor of a rural state
- so is Judy Martz. And this matters because...?

a Washington outsider
- the "insider/outsider" distinction is meaningless to me

has an excellent track record as governor of Vermont
- that's debatable. And it's Vermont, which also means nothing to me.

also is a straight shooter
- who doesn't think before he speaks. he may as well have a target painted on his back with some of the things he's said

and stands up to George W. Bush
- so do all of the Democratic candidates. Yes, even Lieberman.

Finally:
Is it the fact that he does not play the DNC and DLC line?
Funny how this is the ONLY reason people can come up with for not being in LOVE with Dean. I must be brainwashed by the DNC/DLC/corporate media if I don't love the guy! :eyes:

For the last time: I don't know what the DNC/DLC line is, and I don't care. I will vote for a Democrat, even if it's Howard Dean, but last time I checked I still have a chance to vote for someone else.

[CWebster]

"He should be a dream candidate for the Democrats"

IF the Democrats only wanted to be Democrats and not Republicans.

[Cascadian]

27. Harry Truman said it best....

"when voters are given the chance to vote for a Republican or someone acting like a Republican, they will vote for the Republican every time....."



Words to live by!


John

[Atlant]

82. Bingo.

Well, in November, I'll just find myself a candidate
who exemplifies democratic, liberal, and progressive
ideals without regard for whether they are a member
of the "Democratic" party.

Atlant

[NNN0LHI]

22. I think it is more a lack of familiarity than hate. That is my take anyway

Since 9/11 people are scared. They want someone who they know and are familiar with as president right now because of that. People are fearful of the unknown. His obscurity has not helped Dean this election cycle. It is not his or his supporters fault. It is just the way things turned out this election. People just don't know him well enough to trust him yet.

Don

[EllieDem]

23. I think of Dean like a good "cheerleader"

for the democrat party ....getting people all fired up......and cheering for the quarterback of the football team......John Kerry!!!!!

[Clark Can WIN]

25. I've never hated Howard Dean

I just don't believe he's our best option for beating Bush. I think people that genuinely "hate" democratic candidates need therapy.

Jeez, I don't even hate Joe. I just really really really really really really really want him to go home already.

[ModerateMiddle]

26. What I have against him

is his complete and utter dismissal of all of the hard working Democrats in this country who have been working hard to do the right thing in this country, to get Dems elected vs. right wingers, etc.

His blanket accusations about ALL Dems was awful, as were his pretty nasty attacks on the other candidates early.

[EllieDem]

28. yes and calling all the washington

people "cockroaches" didn't help. And enough with the bragging about what you did in Vermont. Its about 600,000 people total. C'mon!!

[Cascadian]

32. Arkansas population....2,673,400 (2000)

Small rural state. Must I say more?


John

[union_maid]

60. One more word

"Arkansas population....2,673,400 (2000)" Small rural *SOUTHERN* state. Must I say more? Big, big difference in how that's going to play around the country.

[Cascadian]

65. Since when has do you have to be a Southerner to president?

I did not see it in the requirements to run for president. I guess that leaves those of us in the Northeast and West out of the picture.

John

[youngred]

118. that's still 3x the size of Vermont

and a Southern State.

[pacifictiger]

29. just came across this great read

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17512

[patricia92243]

30. The front runner gets all the bad press. Kerry is the front runner now

and now he will be the one getting the "media treatment".

[madrchsod]

33. i don`t like his campaign music

that`s why. actually i don`t hate him, i just don`t like his choice in music.

[anti-NAFTA]

35. What's his campaign music.

I hate Edwards's, though. "I was born in a small town."

[Cascadian]

39. I like Dean's campaign music better John Edwards'

I was never a fan of John Cougar Mellencamp.


John

[Peachhead22]

38. Personally speaking:

For me it's the behavior of some of Dean's supporters that turned me off to their candidate. Illogical I know, but that's the way it is.

It's like when a sports team is doing well and the team's fans start trashtalking the fans of all other teams mercillesly. Many fans of the sport in general start disliking that team simply because they're tired of it's fans being such arrogant weinies.

On edit: It was the use of the perjorative "Clintonista" by some Dean supporter to describe someone who supported another Dem candidate. That was the final straw for me. Clintonista?! That's straight out of FP.

[isbister]

41. I don't hate him

I just think we shouldn't try to replace one dishonest person with another.

[RetroLounge]

43. Lots of reasons

but none of them involve reason...

[youngred]

119. Perhaps opening your mind to criticism

would show you why Dean is slipping. i mean this honestly, Dean and his supporters need to start listening and stop preaching. Find out what they've done wrong and fix it, or Dean will be the biggest Bubble Burst since the dotcoms

[messiah]

44. I don't "like" Dean because

moderates trying to take back the party from moderates is kinda strange and out there.

[MuseRider]

51. There you go

exactly. That is really well put. I do not hate Dean but I do not like him either, I prefer liberals.

[Upfront]

45. Media

Mostly it is the media which is controled by a few very rich people who don't want Dr. Dean to deal with. They have carried out a big time hack job on Dean. mediachannel.org/views/dissector/affalertl36.shtml Did The Doctor Get Gored? By Michael Hammerschlag Read this artical and you will see how they did it.

[AlFrankenFan]

47. This is my reason...

Now, to level with you, I was a Dean supporter for a few months. I thought, before looking at DK, that he was the anti-war/anti-Bush candidate.

One particular thing was the scream. I know we hear too much of this, but it concerns a quote of his, "I lead with my heart, not with my head." That's not a good thing to say. Your head, or mind, the center of reason, is what you should lead with, not your heart, the center of your emotions. You lead with your emotions, like anger, etc...you're going to go off-track. You lead with reason, you lead well.

Also, I do not hate Dean, I just have a disliking for him. It's Bush whom we should hate.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

49. Hate? Dislike..because his policies are not progressive...

like Clinton.

:shrug:

You assume we think Clinton is our saviour.

NAFTA, telecomm deregulation, DMCA, antiterrorism act of 95(lil' patriot act), welfare 'reform', etc.


TWL

[windansea]

50. I used to hate him

but now I like him...I like how he has fought through the adversity of coming from nowhere to national frontrunner...got the spotlight..went after chimpy hard..set the tone...then got fully skewered in the media (partly his fault) but still keeps fighting

He looked GREAT in post debate tweety interview!!

[theboss]

52. I like Dean . . .

I am suspect of "Cult of Personality" candidates. I never got on the Perot bandwagon for the same reason.

And that's really what the Dean campaign strikes me as most similar to. A very rich man with one populist notion and a lot of frustrated supporters. And it's not even that the supporters are wrong to be frustrated. I'm frustrated too. It's just that I don't believe that one man - especially this man - is going to revolutionize government. I think once you get beyond the bluster and hype, he is a rather mediocre candidate.

So, I don't hate Howard Dean. I'm just not impressed with him. I'm not terribly impressed with Kerry either, but none of his supporters seem to believe he is the Second Coming of Thomas Jefferson though. They seem to grasp what he is. A solid - if occasionally unspectacular - candidate with great credentials and a basic Democratic message.

Basically, my issue with Dean is I just don't get the passion about him.

[adamrsilva]

54. Because he's not boring and is always right.

He can't be a Democrat!

[genius]

56. Because he lies. I used to work on his campaign

I didn't know how conservative he was in the areas that mattered, like civil rights and criminal justice. His death penalty position is not center it's extremely far to the right. He lied about having been against the Iraq war. He supported Biden-Lugar. Worse, he kept lying about all his opponents. No one who was backing anyone else likes someone who constantly lies about their candidate.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

64. Yes - and it's time his supporters woke up to this. He's a charlatan

IMO.

[MoonRiver]

59. Cause he shoots himself in the foot at every opportunity.

And, if he were to be the Dem nominee, we'd be incredibly vulnerable to the highly organized and stealthy reichwing attack machine.

[frustrated_lefty]

61. Because he insists on genuine change.

He promises to shake up the established political system, he promises to kick the insiders out on their asses and make them scurry about like cockroaches.

And, to be honest, there is a contingent within the Dean support which is young and over-eager. It's hard to phrase this and capture the nuances behind what I mean. Some Dean supporters offend the common sense sensibilities of middle America. The reason I say that is I'm trying to be accountable and responsible. That still doesn't address every major media outlet playing the Dean scream 673 times, it doesn't address Kerry's surreptitious push-polling, it doesn't remotely touch upon the "un-electable" meme which scrolls across our T.V.s 24 hours a day, every day of the week.

There is the image of Dean as an angry man. And there is the governor who balanced budgets, who created universal health care, who reduced the rate of child physical and sexual abuse, who reduced the rate of teen pregnancy, who created jobs and salvaged education within his state. Why the hate for Howard Dean? Stupid, superficial nonsense, a privileged media, and political dirty tricks.

[dawgman]

62. for christ sake how have so many people been conned into believing he's a

liberal? He is a centrist at BEST? He won't change anything. He's just like the rest maybe more to the right.

[frustrated_lefty]

72. You assume I'm insisting for a leftwing stance.

I want:

1) a balanced budget; my kids deserve a better place than I got from my parents.
2) health care. There is no excuse for health care in the US.
3) a safer place to live, a better place to live. Dean smacked down on physical and sexual abuse of children, he reduced the rate of teen pregnancy. Maybe you don't get it, but I have kids and these issues are important to me. I WANT a safer place for my kids. If you want a better world, you start with the kids, the next generation. My 11 year old watches Dean, he starts talking about Ed, Edd amd Eddy when John "cadaver" Kerry says anything.

Maybe that is centrist. Maybe it's left. I DON'T care! Dean actually walked the walk. He did it. I trust a man who said hard words when he thought it was the right thing to do, and I trust a man who delivers.

I think Kerry will be our nominee, so I keep digging to see what he actually did. I would like to have faith in him. What I find disgusts me. The deciding thing for me is, WHERE ARE THIS MAN'S BALLS? Does he stand for ANYthing, aside from promoting his political future?

I WANT points 1-3 above. Dean has delivered, Kerry never touched the issues.

[dawgman]

73. What is dean's healthcare plan?

He was on a Seattle talk show called the Dave Ross show before the war and stated that one of the main reasons Vermont had such a high rate of health care was because he relied on people my age not to go to the doctor so he didn't have to cover them!

I might have to declare bankruptcy because of my lack of HI. Is this the man I want to solve the healthcare crisis in this country? No effin way!

I have a five year old (who, despite my unemployment is still covered) So safety is a big deal for me as well. But do you know who is going to sexually abuse our children? We are, or our brothers or fathers or cousins or uncles are. Not some psycho off the street anyone who promises that they are the one who can prevent or HAVE prevented this type of abuse is lying. How can one be protected from those closest to one?

How did he lower the teen pregnancy rate? I don't know and would like an answer.

[frustrated_lefty]

77. Good questions.

The answer is, Dean:

1) appointed more women to office than any other state governor
2) signed an executive order enhancing state assistance to victims of domestic violence
3) challenged the term "partial birth abortion" from a medical perspective, saying that it is a "code word" for extremism
4) instituted policies resulting in pregnancy rates for young teens dropping 49%.
5) caused Vermont to be the first state to institute a statewide protocol for abuse investigations. In return, Vermont saw a 45% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children. This included a 64% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-3 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-6
6) has consistently, irrefutably argued that what a woman does with her body is her own decision and none of the government’s business.

Specifically, with attention to your question, Dean devoted real attention to this issue. If you want links to my data, you are welcome to it. Say so here or pm me, I will be happy to provide links.

I get the feeling you disagree, which is ok. But I would like to know who you think has done a better job, and why they've done a better job?

Most of my impressions are formed based on an analysis by the National Alliance for Women. Google them, if you're interested, they have good information on all the candidates.

[dawgman]

80. go ahead and give me links please.

I would like to read them. I would love to change my mind about a front runner.

[blondeatlast]

110. I wish I knew--Kerry and Edwards are decidedly to the left of Dean.

And I don't consider them liberal.

[NV1962]

67. FWIW, I like him.

I mean that: he's a good guy with a pair.

Sick of the bash Dean BS, too. Makes me wonder what Lieberman and Kerry really have to offer, aside from sniping and hacking at fellow Democrat's backs.

In fact, makes me like Dean even more - way more than Kerry and Lieberman who I like just barely more than the toxic Texan.

[John_H]

69. I don't sense much hatred of Dean

I'd have no problem working my ass of to get him elected if he wins, and I think 95 percent of DUers feel the same way.

Don't fall for the DLC bullshit. Dean's no outsider, and even if he were the DLC couldn't stop him if he was who the voters wanted. The DLC is a convenient boogeyman catchall for people who want to feel like outsiders.

What I think you're sensing is a very strong conviction among many Dems that he'd get slaughtered by Chimp and who therefore are working hard to make sure he doesn't get the nomination.
It's just that simple.

[OutlawCorporatePolls]

70. You want the simple answer?

Kerry represents the Old Economy.

Dean represents the New Economy.

The corps(es) are nervous.

[Eurobabe]

78. Saw him on 1/26 in Exeter

I don't hate Dean, I just don't honestly see what all the fuss is about. He is not a great speaker, and I found him to be rather grating. I did like his comment that he would not overpromise that we need to balance the budget first. But other than that, he was long winded, and not always on a straight train of thought. He botched a question about Israel-Palestine from a guy at the end. Sorry but I want a president who KNOWS how to engage internationally. Dean is too weak in this area. The public sees it.

[Gadave]

79. I blame the press

He speaks his mind. The press then takes what he says out of context to make an even better story. What happened after the so called "I have a scream speech" is what made me lean toward Dean. When I see someone being treated unfairly, it makes me want to come to their aid.

[jsw_81]

81. I don't hate Dean

I just don't think he's the best man to be our party's presidential nominee this year. Why? Here are a few reasons:

- He admitted to having panic attacks while serving as governor.
- He offended African-Americans with his Confederate flag comments.
- He offended Christians with his attempt to inject religion into his campaign.
- He offended Jews by suggesting that the U.S. should be totally "neutral" with regard to the Israeli/Palestinian issue.
- He baffled nearly everyone by suggesting that Osama bin Laden deserves a "fair trial."
- He called for honest, open gov't while simultaneously locking his own records in a vault for ten years.
- He suggested that Bush knew about plans for 9/11 and did nothing, then retracted this claim when reporters asked him about it.
- He suggested that Iraq was better off under Hussein
- He joked about his son's arrest for burglary
- He kept his wife hidden away until the last days of his campaign
- He visited President Carter and tried to make it seem as if Carter had endorsed him, even after Carter made it clear that he hadn't.
- He screamed on national television after losing Iowa
- He said that Senator Kerry was "whining" on several occasions
- He claims to be a fiscal conservative yet wasted $40 million in Iowa and New Hampshire, losing both contests by a wide margin.
- He criticized President Clinton.

Bottom line: Howard Dean is Karl Rove's dream candidate and would be a disaster in the general election against Bush. We simply cannot allow Dean to win this nomination, period.

[rpf113]

84. 1. He was the frontrunner

2. He seemed the favourite of the 'fanatics'
3. Everybody else was scared of him.

Hell, I was! I'm not anymore, so I don't attack him.
I like the guy, I only went after him to help the others. Now that he's a sure loser I can say that he's done a great service to the party by bringing a populist tone to all the campaigns and bringing new voters into the Democratic Party.

[Indiana Democrat]

85. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Good God, this is tiresom...

No matter how much propaganda you and yours try to spread, the fact remains that Dean destroyed himself. He was not electable from the start and now that fact has been proven.

NO ONE hates him. But there are a number of us who saw a 49 state electoral landslide LOSS coming if enough people kept drinking the Howard Dean Kook-Aid.

I just think God that he melted-down BEFORE he won the nomination.



You sound just like the pukes who call us America haters just because we don't support the idiot.

[cryofan]

86. If you look at some of his quotes from his past in VT, you see a man who

...is smug, arrogant, meanspirited, and one who is dead set against the social safety net (see www.mylinuxisp.com/~cryofan/dean.html ).

[goodhue]

87. arrogance, lies, petulance

to name a few

[phillybri]

88. Stupid title...You sound like Repugs whining about "Bush Hatred"...

That's weak...

[NicRic]

89. I dont "hate" Dean !

I dont support him ,for a couple of reasons ,however if he was the nominee , I would vote for him because I want anyone except bush in the White House come 2005 ! I just think chosing Dean will give bush a landslide win, I want so badly to see that smirk off bushes face, as he has to watch a Dem being inagurated !

[TheDonkey]

90. Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaar!!!!!

;)

[Padraig18]

96. Thank you for that substantive, thoughtful contribution.

:eyes:

[CTLawGuy]

91. they hate him because

he is an agent of change. Therefore he is a threat to the powerbrokers who control this party. We have a one and a half party system in this country. The Democrats only provide token opposition to the republicans corporate agenda. Those same corps control the Dems through the DLC. Dean was threatening to topple DLC control of the party and make the Dems an actual compeititive alternative to the Pugs. The powerbrokers in the media and govt cannot tolerate that.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

93. Change what? Dean is a centrist at best...

NAFTA, Patriot Act, continuing the illegal occupation, wants to keep the PROFIT in healthcare and leave 10 million uninsured, PROdeath penalty.

Where is the change. The campaign is one thing, but the candidate does NOT share ideals with the campaign.

Unfortunately I see a lot of 'projecting' onto Dean. People want him to be what he is not. He IS a corporatist. He took money fro big energy. The Koch brothers to be exact. They also contribute to Bush. It doesn't matter if the figure was 5 digits, DEAN ACCEPTED it.

TWL

[Kahuna]

94. He's a divider, not a uniter. His bush-like...

my way or the highway tactics are a big turnoff. I'm sure that Dean didn't even realize that his approach was too heavy-handed to bring the party together and that it could achieve the opposite of what he said he wanted to achieve. Dean was operating in an "echo chamber" enviornment and didn't take kindly to advice or criticism.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

95. "Hate" is too strong. "Mystified" and "annoyed"

would be better.

1. The disconnect between his populist rhetoric (and stealing Wellstone's line) and his conservative record. He's not a liberal--he just plays one on TV, and I can't understand why all these progressives are supporting him. The only thing that is "innovative" about him is his use of the Internet, but he hasn't been able to translate that into votes.

2. I can't help it. He reminds me of a slick salesman who says, "What do I have to do to get you to buy my product?" That's my overwhelming impression.

3. My relatives, who are about as typical middle American voters as you could hope to find, and loyal Democrats, don't like him either. They called him the yuppie candidate. They didn't say anything about "anger."

4. He's out of his depth. The Twin Cities metro area has more people than Vermont, so winning the governorship of Vermont is like winning a mayoral election in a mid-size city. He needs to do his homework or not make statements that he'll have to retract the next day.

5. His claims of being an "outsider." Nobody who has been in the DLC is an outsider, for heaven's sake, and his endorsements have not been from outsiders either. He has merely been defined by the media as "the liberal candidate," so that they can define the outer limits of permissible discourse. Note how Dean, whose actual platform is little different from the others', gets a lot of press, both positive and negative. while DK, who actually does "color outside the lines," gets no props for pioneering several issues that other candidates later took up. The funny-looking guy with the nasal voice is the real outsider in this race.

6. The way some of his supporters on this board and in my daily life act so snarky towards people who dare to support other candidates.

[zulchzulu]

98. Hate is a pretty strong word... how about "see through"

I've followed Dean's positions and flip-flops on those positions enough to know that I really don't actually know where Dean stands on issues. Witnessing the arrogance of many of his supporters over the months that I have seen while doing grassroots work for Kerry adds to the problem of not only his likeability but his electibility as well.

Watching Dean attack Kerry last night about his record as senator and use half-truths and outright lies with a straight face is enough reason to now see how desparate he has become.

Dean is done. He has let down those he led. He blew it. There is no one to blame but himself.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

99. Reading through this thread

don't you get the impression that the Dean defenders aren't actually reading and thinking about people's reasons for disliking Dean?

Once and for all, Dean supporters, we don't dislike him because we're "threatened by change," or because "we've been seduced by the media/Karl Rove/Martian mind rays."

The idea that the several Kucinich supporters on this thread "are threatened by real change" is laughable.

[blondeatlast]

115. Well said. And I'm tired of being branded "bush-lite" because I

don't support Dean. Kucinich is the choice in my heart of hearts (I hardly call him Bush-lite) but I can't say he will get my vote in the primary.

[IowaBiker]

101. His supporters alienate voters.

They came to Iowa and called Iowans stupid and couldn't understand why, in turn, we didn't vote for them.

That's when they, and their candidate, had a nationally televised temper tantrum.

Afterwards they blamed their bad behavior on Kerry, the media, and of course us dumb Iowans.

They do the same thing in this forum, and can't understand why people get upset over the behavior.

I left the Republican party because the Republicans behaved that way, now it's the Dean people.

Make me absolutely sick. And very, very, very angry.

Why should I vote for somebody who insults me?

--Brian

[blm]

102. yeeowch....sorry...I hadn't heard it quite like that before.

I didn't think the feeling from DU Dean supporters would carry over to the campaign in Iowa.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

103. "Why should I vote for somebody who insults me?"

You shouldn't.

TWL

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. LOL

See posts #99 abd #100 and then reconsider your own post in that light.

By the way, I'm voting for Kucinich.

[CalProf]

127. And they wonder why we don't support Dean.... n/t

[youngred]

111. This is very true

From an outsider I see this type of behaviour from the Dean camp a lot. Some Bad eggs are ruining it for your candidate and movement

[MAlibdem]

104. Basically...

I just think this whole cult of personality has gone a little to far. We are a nation, and a party, of ideas. Howard Dean represents a Caesarian departure from this tradition. Cults of Personality are bad for democracy (and the Democratic Party...remember Andrew Jackson?...that whole trail of tears thing was bad), and so will Howard Dean if he wins.

[youngred]

108. HE DOES play the DLC and DNC line

the only person more conservative amongst the Dems is Lieberman. He waffles and changes his opinions depending on if he thinks it can get him votes. He has an (by his own admission, and known before Iowa) short temper. He is not an outsider by any means. He has an excellent track record of supporting the NRA and big business, being opposed to healthcare proposals for the people

That said I do not hate him, just support other people. if he is nominated he will get my support

[blondeatlast]

117. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I can't wait until the dienfranchised you

on the boards can vote--you all are amazing in your wisdom!

:toast:

[youngred]

120. I'm almost there

this will be the first pres election I can vote in and I cannot wait.

To all the young DUers :toast:

[Nicholas_J]

121. It could be that

Not one of the things that Dean claims as an acocmplishemnt as Governor are things that he actively ever supported during his political career, but is now claiming that he is responsible tobthe success of the very things he vehemently opposed as governor, and used his veto pwer to try to stop as Govenror.

Universal Health Care, Dean threatened to veto it:

Vermont
In April 1992 Vermont passed the Vermont Health Care Act of 1992 to ensure universal coverage for state citizens, control healthcare costs via a global budget, implement insurance community rating, reform medical malpractice laws, and place the state's healthcare under one state authority. The legislation did not specify how the state would pay for and achieve universal coverage. This led to development of two state proposals--one backed by a group of 55 legislators for a single-payer plan and one pushed by the governor for an employer mandate.

Although the single-payer plan was not brought to the floor for a vote during the current 1994 session, many predicted it would have been defeated. Additionally, Gov. Howard Dean, MD, had promised to veto it if passed.

http://www.chausa.org/PUBS/PUBSART.ASP?ISSUE=HP9410&ARTICLE=L

Control of Special Interests:

Dean was controlledd by special interests:
... Reports also described allegations that Governor Dean vetoed a pharmacy bill after collecting $ 6,000 in campaign contributions from drug companies...

The influence of out-of-state donations: "Outside money is one of Howard Dean's specialties. Of the $ 312,290 the governor raised for his 1996 election, 65 percent came from out-of-state contributors: labor unions, Washington lawyer-lobbyists, the health care industry, to name a few of the special interests." n13 For the 1994 election "Dean, for example, received more money from major pharmaceutical manufacturers during the reporting period ($ 11,000) thin he did from people and companies located in Burlington ($ 10,460)." n14 One editorial said, "it's no mystery why out-of-state contributors pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into Vermont campaigns. ... They're trying to buy influence. But the cost is public trust."

http://www.brookingsinstitution.org/dybdocroot/gs/cf/headlines/cases/LandellvSorrell.DOC

CLF seeks details of Dean administration’s talks with utilities
March 11, 2002

(from the State section)
By SUSAN SMALLHEER Southern Vermont Bureau

MONTPELIER — The Conservation Law Foundation will file a freedom of information request with the Dean administration today to find out how many contacts it has had with Vermont utility executives over the pending sale of the Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant.

Mark Sinclair, senior attorney with the environmental group, said Monday that recent news reports about the financial contributions made by Vermont utility executives or board members to Gov. Howard Dean’s presidential campaign political action committee were “too much of a coincidence.”

Sinclair said the new offer from Entergy Nuclear of Jackson, Miss., last week wasn’t substantially better than the original bid, and doesn’t really address the serious concerns raised by the state earlier this winter about local control and other economic issues.

“The department didn’t get anything,” he said.

Sinclair compared it to the negotiations with Vice President Dick Cheney by energy companies that are now subject to an investigation by the General Accounting Office.

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/43924


Monsanto's Intimidation Tactics Continue

Headline: Monsanto Unit Challenges Vt. Cow Hormone Licensing Bil Wire Service: DJ (Dow Jones)

Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP)--Monsanto Co.'s (MTC) Protiva unit said it will stop selling the artificial bovine hormone recombinant Bovine Somatrotropin, or rBST, in Vermont if a bill requiring that it be licensed passes the Legislature.

In a Jan. 7 letter to members of the Vermont dairy industry and to Gov. Howard Dean and Agriculture Commissioner Leon Graves, Protiva said forcing licensure would "severely disrupt previously private business activity; and it would do so in the absence of any legitimate state interest sufficient to justify the intrusion into your privacy."

http://www.organicconsumers.org/rBGH/MonIntim.html


• In 1998, Monsanto sent a letter to policy-makers in Virginia threatening to sue the state if a proposed voluntary BST labelling bill became law. Governor Howard Dean reversed his earlier support for the bill and instead threatened to veto it.

http://www.tv.cbc.ca/newsinreview/mar99/milk/other.htm

Monsanto's legal team began 1998 by taking on the State of Vermont and its attempts to pass a very weak rBGH law that merely required Monsanto to register with the state and make its client list available to state authorities so "rBGH-free" claims could be verified. The company responded by publicly threatening to sue the state and stop selling its products in Vermont if the bill passed. Governor Howard Dean, feeling the lobbying heat from Monsanto and its rBGH-addicted farmers in Vermont, came to Monsanto's defense and pulled the plug on the measure by threatening a veto. The legislature then went on to further soften an already spineless bill by removing the section that required the drug manufacturer's client list. Eventually, after yet another legal threat and a "closed-door" meeting with Governor Dean, Monsanto backed off and let the near-meaningless legislation go into effect.

http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/24/monsanto.html


Do you want hundres more articles which indicate that Dean is basically deceiving many people during the nomination campaign and that his record as governor is one of virtually selling the state of Vermonmt to the highest bidder.

One final note on Dean, from a very long term Dean advisor:

It’s Business As Usual, Starring HOWARD DEAN
"The joke among a lot of Vermont Republicans was that they didn't need to run anyone for governor because they basically had one in office already," said Harlan Sylvester, a conservative Democratic stockbroker and longtime adviser to Dean.

(St. Petersburg Times, July 6, 2003)

http://www.optimalprime.org/archives/001435.html

It literally was true. As Govenror, Republican and conservatgives actively shored up Deans tenure as governor raising vast sums of money for Dean in order to make sure that actual Democrats who followed the Democratic party progressive line could not get into office. This is just a tiny, tiny sampling of Deans behavior as Governor. He did nothing for the people of Vermont, but was greatly favored by big business and other special interests who grteatly finiaanced him. In ome campaign in 1986 , the parmaceutical industries gave Dean more money that his Republican opponenet raised for his entire campaign. A Dean administration would be no differnt than Bush adminsitration only that Halliburton would be replaced by Pfizer in corporate deals.

Thats why so many people hate Howard Dean

[blm]

125. And former Monsanto VP, Toby Moffett now Dean advisor.

He's also a BIGTIME lobbyist for Iraq war profiteers.

[Edge]

122. I like Dean.

I've never liked Kerry, though, so I've always ratted on him.

[Auntie Bush]

123. No one hates Dean...they just think their candidate is better

In fact...I love Howard Dean! But I'm an avid Clark suporter.