Serious question. What really makes Dean different?

[bhunt70]

How is he really different from other democrats historically? Not just in the context of this campaign but overall in his history.

I just wonder why the NBD or home sitters feel so disenfranchised with other democrats who may hold their views, because I see Dean as just another candidate. It seems that this small group of people have one issue that polarizes them. That is my perception and it may be wrong but I do not think anyone here can pick 1 issue that HD has that others do not have. One issue that makes you feel defiant against the other democrats enough to stay home.

[ibegurpard]

1. Here's mine:

I have been disgusted with the performance of the Democrats for the past three years and yet the power-brokers in the party expect me to lay down and go with their hand-picked candidate yet again. Dean is trying an end-run around them and thus will not be accountable to them if he is successful. That is why they are engaged in an all-out take Dean down at any cost campaign and why I would find it very, very difficult to support any candidate that they endorse, if at all.

[bhunt70]

3. ok...

Ok, but how do you reconcile the fact that many people in the democratic party are behind him...some very high powered people.

With 6 other candidates the democratic party wont all be getting behind the same person initially.

I understand your disgust, but these three years have been very trying for a great deal of people, do their past histories have any bearing or validity?

Are you mainly talking IWR or are there aother issues you think they failed you on that the governor is the lone one standing against.

Please don't take this as flame bait, because I really would like to actually discuss this so I understand it.

[MercutioATC]

7. An answer from another Dean supporter:

Of course he'll have attracted the attention of some high-powered Dems by now. I'm happy for their clout. However, Dean's still running a grassroots campaign and getting his money in small increments from a LOT of people.

I think Dean's solutions make sense and will work. I also think he's a problem-solver. Of all of the candidates, I feel he has ideas that will 1) work for our greatest good ans 2) a plan to make them a reality.

Additionally, with the exception of, possibly, Kucinich supporters, Dean's supporters are firmly dedicated to his plan. I think this will make a difference when he's President and has to show popular support for his ideas.

Finally, there's my gut feeling that Dean really is in it to make a change. The rest just don't seen to have the same passion to me. Granted, that's just opinion, but it's one of the reasons I support Dean...he believes what he says, regardless of how awkwardly he expresses it at times..

[ibegurpard]

21. The IWR was the proverbial straw for me

The Republicans criticized EVERY SINGLE military endeavor that Clinton undertook to the maximum extent they could. And what did the Senate Democrats (who controlled it at the time, albeit narrowly) do? They voted for this most "wag-the-doggish" of "wag-the-dog" escapades. That was just it. That wasn't the only thing to be sure but it was the final straw.

[molly]

60. Dean could not vote so he can SAY whatever appeals

to his followers. He said he supported the Biden-Lugar ammendment.

[Warpy]

22. GMTA

Dean's strengths are this: he did an end run around all those hacks in the DLC and built his own grassroots organization. He's threatening their power as party kingmakers bigtime, as can be seen in the whispering campaign against him, and the release of that cherrypicked pep rally video to every whore news outfite in the country.

Second, he was a practicing physician for years, and his wife is still in practice as an internist. They both know all the sleazy tricks the insurance companies pull to deny sick people health care, and Dean is motivated to end these abuses. He's also promised universal coverage, although the details are hazy.

Third, he's the only governor running. Say what you will, but he's got the executive experience to pull all his advisors together into a coherent administration, something sadly lacking in the obviously compartmentalized Bush gang operation.

[George_Bonanza]

25. Yeah, that's why Mr. DLC Jr. Al Gore endorsed him

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SheilaT]

2. Dean is not beholden to the

corporate interests. He's not afraid to speak up for what he believes in and to take unpopular stands. He was one of the very few speaking out against the war in Iraq when the administration and the news media were beating the war drums very loudly (even though more than half the people in this country opposed war).

This is the first time in my life (I'm 55) I've ever worked for a presidential campaign or donated money. I've been inspired and energized as never before.

He actually believes in the same kind of things I believe in, and seems completely committed to bringing this country back to where it should be.

He opposes No Child Left Behind. He knows the tax cuts for the wealthy are wrong. He knows we need universal health care, and that it's an abomination that we're the only industrialized country without it. He understands the importance of balancing budgets, having done so for eleven years in Vermont.

I don't see any other candidate with his record of accomplishment, his willingness to do what's right.

Anyone else would give us business as usual corporate America.

[bhunt70]

8. Thanks for your answer

I can understand being inspired and energized with Howard Dean, it's truly what I feel he brings to the table. As to your other issues though, he is not the only one for universal health care, opposing no child left behind, or against the war. Given that those are the issues you cited as being as important (in general, I know there are more) is there no other candidate that you know of that also holds those positions that you would consider IF howard Dean did not get the nomination? (I am not trying to advocate any one person)

[SheilaT]

20. The only other person whose stands are even close

is Dennis Kucinich, and I'm seriously considering shifting my support to him if Dean drops out.

I CANNOT understand how anyone here, any Democrat worth the name, can support a man who voted for the IWR, who voted for No Child Left Behind, who voted for the Bush tax cuts. I don't understand how anyone can think a general who only recently discovered the Democratic party, whose main qualification seems to be that he looks striking in a uniform, who never held any elected office, how anyone can think he is fit to run for president.

Howard Dean stand for and stands up for many of the things that matter most to me. We cannot have another four years of Bush, and another corporate sponsored president of any kind is abhorrent to me. I feel as if too many people still don't understand what we're up against. We are already living in a police state. Anyone who has flown on an airplane since Sept 11, 2001 should realize that. It's only going to get worse.

I am desperate to get out of here before it's too late, but I have a son still in high school, so I feel trapped. I have an older son, too, who's in junior college right now, expects to go to a state university in the fall. I will try to persuade him to postpone that and go abroad for the fall.

There was a coup in December 2000, and the people who took power in that coup will not give up power easily.

[NashVegas]

58. Leading vs Adopting a Message

As to your other issues though, he is not the only one for universal health care, opposing no child left behind, or against the war.

When the Dem establishment didn't want to upset Ted Kennedy because of his work on the bill, Dean said the emperor wore no clothes, calling it "No School Left Standing."

When the Dem establishment was allowing itself to get beat up by Harry & Louise, Dean was quietly changing the system in his state.

Finally, when polls indicated strong support for the war, when no seriously-taken national politician would dare say a word against it, Dean spoke up.

It's called leadership, and it's something our over-polled, over-strategized country is in sore need of.

[George_Bonanza]

28. Dean not beholden to corporate interests?

He's no George W. Bush, but I know a lot of progressives in Vermont were off-put by Dean's willingness to please big business.

NCLB is in fact a liberal's bill: Ted Kennedy's. If you disagree with it, you cannot say that Kerry is a panderer to Bush. You CAN say that he is a panderer to liberals.

Dean does not support universal healthcare. The only one who does is Dennis Kucinich, and maybe Al Sharpton, I haven't checked.

[msanger]

4. The 100 dollar revolution.

two million American's donating 100 dollars each to compete with bush's big money donors. If this works, and especially if those folks also toss in another 100 to congressional candidates, it will be the start of the end of big money controlling our country.

[lostnfound]

15. Yes -- "How he is funded". n/t

[LSdemocrat]

5. He makes government work

Look at his record. He gets things done. Especially look at the Success by Six program.

He's honest. He doesn't try to be all things to all people, he has his priorities and goes to work.

[cavebat2000]

6. Mine:

I think Dean has stood consistently on the most important topics in this election: Tax Cuts, The War in Iraq, and GW Bush. I just remember feeling anger as we went into this war when all the stupid conservatives were rubbing it in our faces. "Oh they have WMD.. they are a threat... Do you want another september 11th? Support our Troops and President Bush" I remember watching the bombs fall on tv and feeling like I was the ONLY one in this world who had any sense, and that it was stupid to go to war. I remember being angry at all of the Democrats for not standing up to Bush. They all just rolled over, including Kerry, and Edwards.

Then I saw this guy on TV... defiant! He said "I dont think Iraq has WMD. I think this is wrong, and the only way it would even be remotely ok is if we had multilateral support." Than I saw the california democratic convention. "What I want to know is, what are so many democrats doing supporting the unilateral attack in Iraq?"

That was it. It drew tears. SOMEONE was as angry as I was about this stuff. In a world where I felt alone, Howard Dean was there to back me up.

I have supported howard dean ever since. I have donated over 100$ to his campaign, and I just graduated high school. I dont really ahve 100$, but I gave it anyway.

Thats why I support Howard Dean.

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Did you ever ask yourself WHY Howard Dean was on TV and

Dennis Kucinich wasn't?

Kucinich is a real progressive while Dean is a centrist campaigning as a liberal (sort of -- Dean claims not to be a liberal but the media calls him liberal and he doesn't go out and shout "I am a centrist" at rallies.)

FDR said NOTHING in politics happens by accident. If it happens, it was planned. I think that certainly applies to media interest in a candidate, which can be bought.

I think the DLC may have assisted Dean's campaign in order to draw liberals back to the party (away from the Greens.) Oh, they sent a famous memo that seemed to say "Don't vote for Dean" but perhaps that was a classic Br'er Rabbit plea ( "Please don't throw me in the briar patch, B'rer Fox!" said Br'er Rabbit, who, like all rabbits,was perfectly happy in a briar patch.)

Why would the DLC do that? Because they wanted someone new (and liberal-attracting) but preferred a centrist candidate, of course. Dean went to D.C. and talked to Gore prior to the 2000 campaign. He wanted to run then but Gore told him it was his turn. Gore endorsed Dean quite early in the race for 2004, you'll remember.

Dean supporters have gone along with a lot of surprisingly centrist statements from Dean. They've been okay with his centrist record, too, even those who consider themselves quite liberal. He accused all the other Dems of being BushLite and Dean supporters bought that, when the reality is that Dean is probably only to the left of Joe Lieberman, and I'm not positive he's even to Joe's left.

Now that Dean's not been able to get out the votes he needed in Iowa and NH, it looks as if we may get Kerry, who has a far more liberal record than Dean's. I'd much prefer Dennis Kucinich but to have a real progressive, we'd need an organization much bigger than the one Trippi built for Dean. I wish Kerry and Edwards hadn't voted for IWR, but I think they'd be a strong ticket. I think Kerry's Viet Nam service looks awfully good against Bush -- and Dean's deferment looks mighty weak. If Kerry's the nominee, I'll feel better about voting than I have since 1972 (McGovern), though I don't see myself supporting Kerry as much as I supported McGovern.

Don't be surprised if it's a Kerry/Dean ticket, though. I wouldn't be. Candidates may fight during the primaries but they all want to win and most will take VP if they can't win the top slot.

[dsc]

9. For me it is

on gay rights. He tells everyone he is for them all the time. He consistently states that he doesn't want to be divided on sexual orientation as well as other issues. In one of our most conservative counties he handed out literature touting his civil unions bill. That means something to me.

He also raised him money in a way that I like. We have a real problem when we rely on corporate donations. That also is important.

[joshcryer]

11. Yeah, he doesn't pander.

He's straight up (no pun intended dsc, hehe), and at times when it could hurt his vote, that's really freaking great. I've never seen that before from any other candidate.

[bhunt70]

12. This is the one issue I feel he actually is different in...

Precisely because he actually did something about it while so far the rest have just offered lip service.

[joshcryer]

10. Because every time he's down...

...he earns another million in individual contributions the next day.

He has running support of many hundreds of thousands of people. This is a fact many people depreciate for seemingly no reason but to make themselves feel better about their candidate.

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. Dean is anything but "just another Democrat"

He is unique in many ways. I have the advantage of being a Vermonter, so I have personally lived under his leadership for over a decade. I have seen what this man can accomplish with my own two eyes...even while having to contend with a Republican majority House. First of all, he has united Vermont. Who else could have managed to get both Democrats and Republicans to support Civil Unions? Who else could turn far left liberals into budget balancers over tax and spenders? Who else has been able to motivate Democrats and Republicans to sit down once and sort out their differences and come up with a course of action both can live with minus all the pork? Who else has been a true champion for health care for the uninsured...making it a reality for 99% of the children and 92% of adults he leads? Who else has invested in young kids with the forethought of prevention? Who else has already stood up against big drug companies and demanded that they report every "gift" they dole out that exceeds a $20 value? Who actually endorsed a non-profit groups efforts to get prescription drugs from Canada? Who has shown anywhere near the same level of political courage that Dean has shown? The man is selfless. He's NOT in this race for what he can personally gain. He's in it for what he can GIVE to US. That is what is special and different about Howard Dean and that's why he deserves our respect and support. A polician who is honestly in it for the people is a rarity. They don't come along very often, and especially not at a time when we so desperately need it. I'm supporting Dean not for Dean. I'm supporting Dean for you and everyone else who hasn't been as fortunate as I have to benefit personally from his wonderful leadership. Everyone should take an honest look into his accomplishments and where he stands on the issues. You won't find anyone more sincere or with more integrity than Howard Dean. He wants to give the American people all he has to give, and that's not something the voters should pass up in favor of someone who just wants another political notch on their belt who won't change anything at all.

[lostnfound]

16. He has EXPERIENCE dealing with Rep-majority house? I didn't know that!

That's great..well, hopefully it wouldn't be necessary..but that's a strong selling point (except he can't really go around touting it!)

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. Yes, he does...and on most occassions they gave him what he wanted

Vermont isn't the bastion of liberal politics so many believe it to be. Yes, Bernie Sanders is a socialist, but he's a good honest man who started off in local politics in Burlington. He gained a lot of respect and admiration for his integrity. Vermonters value that. I've never heard anyone criticize the rest of the politicians Vermont blesses the nation with. We have very good taste and judgement on politicians. Howard Dean is no different. If anyone can take control of the country while having to deal with a Republican majority, it's Howard Dean.

[joshcryer]

27. That's what I found most fascinating about him.

How he turns issues like AA into common sense, practical issues that make sense to anyone. I never heard he had to deal with Republicans in Vermont, and I think it's great that he achieved what he did while dealing with them. That just increases my respect for him more.

[Eloriel]

40. I read an article a good while back about how Dean

managed to bring disparate interests together in order to get agreement on some environmentally related issue.

In the best tradition of good negoating (win/win), he did give everyone a little of what they wanted, and got meaningful concessions from them which he could then use to work with yet another group to bring into agreement. It was BRILLIANT. I was so impressed reading about it -- he's quite simply a natural.

It's sad but true that in politics, no side usually gets all of what they want. Dean, however, strikes me as someone who can elegantly and effectively get the most out of any situation for the people and the country, while keeping honest and good-faith participants in the process satisfied (again: win/win).

[KaraokeKarlton]

42. Sounds like the Champion Lands issue that you're talking about

n/t

[bhunt70]

24. Good post karaoke...a statement.

From your post though I would consider a moderate democrat, you have first hand experience and I respect that. I am on the outside looking in so bear with me.

From my perspective he did what other moderates tend to do (with varying levels of success), bridge a gap between left and right, conservative and liberal, democrat and republican.

I do actually applaud him for that. I have more liberal leanings but pragmatically support more moderate agendas because I think compromise is the only real way to get things done.

The only difference I can see though is that in one instance he is the Executive in office while democratic moderates hold a lesser seat of power as a minority in both houses.

As Governor he can be perceived as a powerful person bridging gaps and making things happen, but on the other hand those in the minority don't have that luxury. Instead it is seen as pandering. HD didn't bully to get his way in VT did he, I would suppose he also had to give a little to make ends meet.

What I perceive is that people are disenfranchised with the democrats for trying to do just that, bridge that gap, but at the insanely distict disadvantage of being minorities in both houses.

[KaraokeKarlton]

36. You can't really label Dean, because he doesn't fit any neat box

Dean runs government much like he treated patients. He looks at the facts first, then looks at the different treatment options. He considers the potential outcomes of each option and then chooses the most effective course of action for the least amount of money. He's pragmatic, smart and a real task master.

How did he deal with the lawmakers? Basically he made it clear from the get go that he wasn't going to tolerate any nonsense. When they came to work, he expected them to spend that time working and getting somewhere. If they started in loading bills and what not with a bunch of appeasement pork, Dean wouldn't hesitate to Veto what they sent him and make them start all over again from scratch. Needless to say, in the early days he managed to piss off an awful lot of the lawmakers in Vermont. However, if you talk to any of them now, they have a deep and sincere respect for him and his vision. Was he hard on them at times? Absolutely. And as a result, they got a lot done that they can be very, very proud of, and they are proud. I wouldn't call his style "bullying". I'd call it holding other politicians accountable for doing their job. Those who don't want to be held accountable don't particularly care for that style of leadership, but it IS very, very effective.

Dean isn't really about bridging gaps between parties. He's simply about getting the job done, doing what he feels is best for those he serves and holding himself and those he works with to the highest possible standard of conduct. I think that's a good thing.

[bhunt70]

38. My point with that post though wasn't necessarily about labels

it was more about the way he was able to work and get things done in a position of Governor, while seeing other people try to do the same as a minority. House/Senate democrats want to get things done also, but aren't as able because of the position they are in.

It's relatively easier to work like that when you are the Top Dog as opposed to being the stable boys.

Thanks for your time, I gotta work in the AM so I have to go but thank you for the discussion.

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. Sure, they may want to accomplish something

But no one really knows if they actually can or not unless they've actually been in a position to prove they can. That's why Governors make better presidential nominees against incumbents than Senators. And you're welcome.

[Lugnut]

30. I'm already a Deaniac

But your post just gave me goosebumps. Thank you.

[KaraokeKarlton]

You're welcome

Hopefully others who haven't really given a fair look at Howard Dean will take the time to do so before it's their time to vote. By not looking, they are truly missing out on something quite rare and special.

[bhunt70]

14. ok to clarify though...are these issues that would keep you

from voting or supporting another candidate if the governor didnt get the nomination.

Thats really what I want to know, the issues that the other candidates are FAILING on that would preclude you from voting for them that Howard Dean holds.

As I pointed out in a previous post I feel that his signing of civil unions does set him apart, but aside from that I'm having a hard time really seeing that his other initiatives and issues are all that different from any other democrat.

The money contributions, his being first at being angry, those dont really do it for me...the money is a supposed effect of these issues and his passion is not really something I would consider a primary attribute to look at while voting, for me at least.

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. This is too important to me to be willing to vote for anyone else

I am voting for Dean, period. If he's not on the ballot I will be writing his name in. This has always been my position from day one and will always be my position.

[bhunt70]

29. What if he came out in support of another candidate?

If he didnt get the nomination? Would you trust his judgement on that, or would you still write him in?

just playing devils advocate on this one, this isn't really a main discussion point I dont think.

[ibegurpard]

34. My choice of candidate, while it can be influenced by an endorsement

is not going to be transferrable simply because Howard Dean tells me.

[dsc]

18. In the primary yes

I also know the people who are running for delegate and won't let them down by voting for another candidate. As for the general, if Kerry is behind the dirty tricks and the Osama ad I will have a real problem.

[joshcryer]

19. That's the point of primaries, so we can stick to our candidates.

So no, I won't vote for another candidate. :)

Now as far as the nomination goes, I'd vote for whoever the democratic nominee is.

What sets him a part is that as far as I know he's the only candidate who has implemented his ideas at the state level. That's impressive.

[Tweed]

26. Dean's passion

Which translates into anger, which is a bad thing.

[Justitia]

32. He's courageous and gave me a voice

For me, I find him very courageous in the way he stood up for the rights of gay people when it was very unpopular to do so - 6 mos before an election. I read what he wrote about how although the struggles gay people go thru is not something he ever faced, he had to protect their rights - because it was the right thing to do. Although I am a hetero, married woman, this spoke volumes to me of his character, and I have always felt the same way.

I found his early and loud opposition to the war quite courageous during the rah-rah, televised glorification of the historic invasion.

He has been to Texas (a state almost every Democrat writes completely off) many times and when he spoke to us, he said he wasn't writing anyone off. He felt there were a lot of discouraged Democrats here who had no voice, and he promised he would be that voice for us....

ok....now you're making me cry....this is so tough tonight.

Sorry folks, I'm a newbie and an idealist (yes, even in Texas!), that's all I can manage tonight.

[joshcryer]

33. Aw, don't cry, that was a very encourging post.

Thank you for your Dean support, it's people like you who really make me stay on this Dean bandwagon even more. I was so disillusioned about politics since 2000, until Dean and his people showed up.

[Enjolras]

35. He's a doctor, AND a governor

How many times has it been pointed out that senators fare so much worse than governors in presidential elections? The theories about the reasons why vary, but it's a fact that they do.

And he's a doctor, not a lawyer or a corporate CEO, nor even a career politician. (Even as lt. Governor of Vermont, he still carried on his medical practice) Be not fooled, there definitely is still a health care cirisis in America, it hasn't gone away. I think a physician is uniquely qualified to address it, and much more credibly than any lawyer, especially one who has made himself rich and famous by suing physicians and hospitals and contributing mightily to skyrocketing malpractice insurance rates.

And, the NRA loves the guy. Who else in the field can neutralize them?

[Capn Sunshine]

37. That "one issue " happens to be AN ILLEGAL UNJUST WAR

That is draining our treasury , killing our spirit , ruining our standing as a moral force in the world, and leading to possible Armageddon that the religious viewpoint of our "President" is said to be looking forward to.

ISN'T THAT KIND OF IMPORTANT? JUST A BIT? SLIGHTLY?
DAMN, WHAT IS IT WITH EVERYONE?

[bhunt70]

39. but my initial question is what is the one issue that others

don't hold that would preclude you from voting for them. The IWR vote is not that issue.

Yes it is very important, I agree, but it is not unique.

[Enjolras]

48. Indeed, how did I forget that one???

Dr. Dean was indeed a vocal opponent of the war well before it was fashionable to be. He -- and Dennis Kucinich -- deserve credit for that.

I also, somehow, forgot to mention his being the first, and so far only, governor in the U.S. to sign a civil unions bill. That's another biggie although, of all the Dem candidates, it is only Kucinich (and possibly Sharpton), not Howard Dean, who openly supports gay marriage. That's odd, considering that about half of the country -- and a slight majority among women -- do support it. "Coming out" in favor of it now wouldn't seem like the riskiest move one could possibly make.

[fabius]

43. Four reasons:

(1) The war. Dean's thought process on the war was apparently exactly the same as mine: "Don't lie to me, you lying bastards". It was obvious to me, to my wife, and to Dr. Dean, that Bush* was going to have his war no matter what. It's hard for some of us to really see where Kerry or Edwards were on this question. It's clear to me that the Washington Democrats' cave-in on the war was for political expediency, not conviction.

(2) The money. There is a way for Democrats to compete on money without selling out to the corporations for contributions.
This could be picked up by other candidates though, now that Dean and Trippi have shown the way.

(3) Conviction. I believe Howard Dean is telling it like it is. He continually calls the Bushites on their crimes.

(4) Winning. At one point it looked like Dean was going to win the nomination and kick Bush's butt. It may still happen but there are two or three others that could do it, with a good campaign.

To me it was never about anybody's endorsement. (Except I was thrilled by Molly Ivins' endorsement).

[Polemonium]

45. That covers it pretty well

For me the fact that corporate PAC donations are the fuel of DLC poster kids, while howard runs on the fuel of small donations from average donations is HUGE.

[Eloriel]

44. Just another candidate

You know, it's most odd. Each time I read one of your posts, you remind me of Frank Luntz. Just exactly like him to me, the way he asks questions and hones in for clarification. Isn't that the strangest thing?

The one issue: he is the politician I've been yearning for all of my adult life (and I'm soon to be 56), the one I never thought was possible and whom I'd finally given up on finding.

To wit:

* He's honest, forthright (no spin, no pandering) and insightful,

* sees things for what they really are and speaks with GREAT clarity about them

*(I also love his very concrete speaking style), and

* has more integrity than probably the entire current Congress put together, AND

* he's a thinker/doer -- a visionary plus very pragmatic, very results-oriented,

* a fighter and

* absolutely indefatiguable (just thinking about his schedule makes me tired).

At the top of this list is his honesty and integrity. No other politician I have EVER seen has demonstrated that in spades like he does every single day.

[bhunt70]

54. Clue me in, who is frank luntz?

My name kinda rhymes with his, which is ben hunt...northern va, look me up sometime :).

In any case, yes I tend to ask questions and for clarification. I'm not a fan of thinking I know every answer. I know I don't. I'm not gonna say something and pretend it's law because I also know that people see things different. I may ask pointed questions or biased questions but my mind has always been open to new ideas, it's the philosophy degree I guess.

On to your points though, those are all very good reasons why to be for a candidate, very admirable, but is it a reason to either vote for him or not vote? How about next election or the one after that if he isn't running. It seems that if you've been waiting all your life for this candidate, the chances another candidate of his ilk coming up in the next 4 or 5 elections is slim.

I haven't had my morning tea yet so bear with me...

[bhunt70]

56. ok, I just looked up Frank Luntz

what an insult. Thanks.

I would have though we could actually discuss your candidate and not me.

[HazMat]

46. I'll tell you what I think

The reason they support Dean is that he came to defend their unpopular, leftist positions when nobody else would. They opposed the Iraq war mainly because they didn't want Bush to have it as an issue -- they felt Bush already had too much, i.e. the Florida debacle, the tax cuts .. Iraq was the icing on the cake for them.

Add to the fact that these leftists felt marginalized all throughout Clinton's admin. The DLC. Remember, Clinton is DLC. The leftists who eventually supported Dean will never admit it, but Clinton is their real enemy.

Clinton's policy in Iraq was not dovish, it involved the threat of force, as Bush's did, but Bush and the neocons had alterior motives about Iraq, as we all know.

The Dems who voted along with Bush on key issues like Iraq, taxes, NCLB were doing so more because they were staying true to the Clinton center-left ideology than they were doing it to appease Bush. Rove was simply smart enough to look for issues where he could drive a wedge between the Clinton wing and the more leftist wing of the party.

So the anti-war movement was not simply about Iraq; it was about all of this, the anger at the Clinton centrists, for "allowing" Bush to steal the election, for "allowing" Bush to WIN so much .. that is really what it's about. Just like when people root for sports teams - it sucks to have to face the opposition if you constantly lose, and you tend to blame the members of your team who are falling down on the job. So they blamed people like Kerry for their losses, for their embarrassment, for having to face their conservative, gloating family members, friends, co-workers, etc.

For them, Dean was like the star quarterback who stepped in and gave them some "wins". For them it wasn't so much about winning the "superbowl" (the presidency), it was about winning in the media, being able to face their conservative friends/family/co-workers and not feel so weak.

It's as simple as that. Dean makes them feel like a winner. He embraced their leftist views and fought for them, even if he is really not a leftist. And they will fight to the end for Dean. Not the Democratic party. I'm pretty sure this is going to get ugly in the weeks to come. Remember, the Dean movement is based on winning, they won't accept defeat. Even if this means turning this into guerilla warfare.

[genius]

47. HIs policies are not liberal enough to make him a typical Democrat

Of course he talks different than his record looks.

[MercutioATC]

49. Thank God for that. We don't need another "typical Democrat"

...his record reflects what he is...socially progressive and fiscally conservative.

Didn't "typical Democrats" vote for NCLB, the Patriot Act and the IWR?

Dean's the RIGHT kind of Democrat, if you ask me...

[kaitykaity]

50. Howard Dean stood up, said "Not no, but hell no."

He is a leader, a leader who is willing to stand up
and do the right thing even when it is 'unpopular', when
the other Democrats were cozying up to the Little Dictator,
afraid of their own shadows because of Bush Boy's high
poll numbers. Dean stood up when the patriotism police
were out in full force, calling anyone who disagreed with
the fearless leader "traitor".

He was the first national leader to stand up and speak
for me in the three years of hell since the Boy King was
installed by the Supreme Court.

For all of this, I will :loveya: him always.

[rpf113]

52. Dean is soemone I knew from the beginning...

would not make it to the nomination. Many of you may remember my heated criticism of him back when his surge first started.

Since then, though, I have taken a much different view of him. I believe he is a good man with sincere beliefs and a real passion to change this country. While it's true most of his beliefs are centrist, he reminded Democrats that we are a populist party--and look at how all the other candidates have pretty much copied is populist rhetoric.

I'm a Clark or Kerry or Edwards supporter, but I certainly appreciate what Dean brought to this primary process and I believe if we defeat Bush, we must thank Dean for his contribution.

[bhunt70]

55. I agree with you %100

"While it's true most of his beliefs are centrist, he reminded Democrats that we are a populist party"

great point.

[stickdog]

53. Yes, just one issue. We hate Republicans. (nt)

[JNelson6563]

57. When many of our valiant Dems were hiding

under their desks, hoping Karl Rove wouldn't hurt them, Dan stood up and basically said thsi war is wrong and Bush is an asshole.

Now that he's made it nice and safe for the others, they follow.

Lead.

Follow.

Easy-peasy.

Julie

[CWebster]

59. Hope.

[bowens43]

61. Passion.......

he's the only candidate who has it......

[KaraokeKarlton]

62. kick

because this is a good thread.