26,441 Votes

[THUNDER HANDS]

That is the number of votes John Kerry beat Howard Dean by in New Hampshire.

Spin it any way you want.

Dirty tricks, fine, so knock off 500 votes just from that.

Media bashing, fine, so knock off 6,000 votes just from that.

Now please explain how the other 20,000 people came to be misled into the Kerry camp.

Please.

They're sheep and do what they're told? Fine, I'll give you 10,000 sheep.

That's still a margin of victory of 10,000 people.

So what's the excuse now?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

1. He won by 13% in a crowded field

He had 50% more support than the 2nd place finisher. Kerry won decisively. I see no controversy.

[LuminousX]

2. I disagree with your numbers.

How do you arrive at dirty tricks = 500, media bashing = 6,000, etc.?

I understand what point you are trying to prove, but this is a poor way of doing it.

[THUNDER HANDS]

5. you can take whatever numbers you like and plug them in there

the point is, if this had been the squeakiest of sqeaky clean elections, Kerry still would have won HUGE.

And I still think the whole 'dirty tricks' thing is being overblown. All campaigns on some level do dirty stuff.

[dsc]

10. I want to plug in 50k for dirty tricks

then we would have won by over 20k.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. Why not make it 10000000000?

lol

[dsc]

37. It wasn't my standard

I was told I could use whatever numbers I wanted. You need to take it up with the poster I responded to if you don't like the standard. I merely obeyed it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

63. You chose the standard

Yes, you were told you could use whatever numbers you wanted.


You chose 50,000. And I ask: Why not make it 10,000,000,000?

It is just as valid as the number you chose.

So I ask again. Why not make it 10,000,000,000?

[LuminousX]

13. Actually, no.

You are looking at New Hampshire as an isolated case where I see it as part of a whole, being affected by Iowa. I am not about to say Kerry actively engaged in dirty tricks and yes, I agree, 'trickery' is part of campaigning (I certainly hope you weren't one of the people with knotted knickers over Dean flyers) but the fact of the matter is Kerry's people were caught on tape doing it. It affected the Iowa results which then affected the New Hampshire results.

That doesn't matter to me. What's done is done and if Dean can't defend against Kerry's crass attacks, he would never survive against the GOP machine.

I just think your method of bringing this up is not going to lead to the conversation you really want to have which is Dean lacked the overall support in New Hampshire to win, which I fully agree with. Kerry was favored there to begin with and it was an anomaly that Dean was leading for all that time.

[THUNDER HANDS]

20. but but but

New Hampshire "has a history of proving Iowa wrong" - quoteth Howard Dean after Iowa.

And really, it was Dean's next-door state.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

Kerry won, Dean lost, fair and square, and by a large margin.

And no amount of spin, juggling the numbers, or finger-pointing will change that fact. That's all he's pointing out.


New Hampshire Presidential Primary Election Official final tally

[Nicholas_J]

66. Correct

Kerry won by simply appealing to more than 50 percent more voters than Dean did. It simply prooves that Dean did not appeal, in his own back yard, to people living in a state that was most familair with his record as Governor, his style of governing.

As New Hampshire Firefighters, one group of New Hampsire residents said when they were deciding who to endorse for the nomination:

{b]Kerry courts Salem firefighters' votes


August 09, 2003



"I would like to tell you that Governor Dean was a friend to the firefighters and public safety in general, however that would not be a true statement," Locke wrote. "In fact, the only positive statement that I can make about our former governor is that he signed our Survivors Benefits bill once we had done all the work to ensure its passage."

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0809.html

This was long before any serious campaigninf had begun in New Hampshire.

And more than euough proof that there were some people in New Hampshore who got to know Howard Dean before he decided to run for president.

And decide they did not like him. Without dirty trickes involved.

Even the Vermont Newspaper media pointed out that it was Dean, not the other cnadidates, who was indulging in campaign tactics that the residents of that state found to present their own state in a negative way that they found embarassing"

Friday, May 02, 2003
Dean bites Democrats


although sometimes loose with the truth, Dean's attack strategy seems to have paid off. He has put his opponents on the defensive and has drawn considerable attention from political commentators and Democratic contributors. Polls show him neck and neck with Kerry in the critical New Hampshire primary and closing in on the favored Gephardt in the Iowa caucuses...

As Dean becomes a top-tier candidate, however, his casual approach to facts and abusive tactics against his opponents could get him into serious trouble -- and severely damage Vermont's reputation for political civility and intellectual honesty.

http://www.sover.net/~auc/deanbites.htm


Both these articles, from those who lived in a neighboring state, as well as the editors of a major paper in his own state point out the real cause of Deans demose. The Burlington Free Press indicated that Dean himslef could be the cause of his own troubles. No dirty tricks.

Just Dean himself. And the fact that the public might just have been far more intelligent than hegave them credit for.

[Melodybe]

3. I say that all 26,441 were swayed by media polls

If the TV tells them that Kerry is the "winner" that is who they want to vote for.

[sallyseven]

11. I doubt that committed people vote like that.

Most people don't vote in a primary for just anyone. They vote for the person they want. Even independents had to go in and declare themselves as a democrat. Bush is up there sniffing around he is scared. Kerry won fair and square.

[KFC]

21. Then why didn't Kerry win 100% of the vote?

Since the media is all powerful and evil.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

27. lol

[rucky]

4. first the poll & now this

what do you want people to say?

[THUNDER HANDS]

7. the silence speaks volumes, for one

[bigtree]

6. Bahhhhhhhh

Humbug!

[Justice]

8. Does The Fact That He Won Make His Behavior Okay?

I think you miss the point altogether. It is not that he won.

Does that fact that he won means his behavior was justified - I believe that is really the question.

I hope you don't say yes with your usual glee cuz if you do, I will come back and remind you that Bush won because of his bad behavior.

[THUNDER HANDS]

12. are you comparing how Bush handled Florida to how Kerry handled NH?

A few phone calls from some teenage volunteer is the equivilent to casting thousands of minorities off voter rolls and all the shenanigans that the GOP went through to deny Democrats the right to vote?

Please.

[Justice]

18. Very Good Attempt To Change The Subject But

My question was, are you saying that because Kerry won, his behavior was okay?

I don't need to suggest what Kerry did was as bad as Bush to make my point - what Kerry did was wrong.

Additionally, Kerry also sent out negative flyers about Clark which were based on quotes and info taken out of context.

[THUNDER HANDS]

33. okay...now that I'm clear about what you were asking...

No, I don't like dirty tricks from any campaign. Ends don't justify means.

But if you think the Kerry camp were the only people doing stuff like this, you're nuts. All the campaigns did, and will continue to do so, as long as there are campaigns to be won in America.

[Justice]

47. So Because Its Been Done Before It is Okay For Kerry To Do It?

I have not heard anyone say that Clark did it, or that frankly Lieberman, Kunich, Edwards or Sharpton did it.

I've seen posts about Gephardt, Kerry and Dean - again, posts not facts.

It is not okay to do it, even if others do it.

[THUNDER HANDS]

53. I said I don't like it, how do you come to these conclusions?

The fact that this stuff has been done before and will continue is a totally seperate point from the fact that I also said I don't think it's a good thing for ANY candidate to do.

However, that's a sad, ugly part of American politics and that's just the way it is.

I don't like it. I don't approve of it. But it is what it is.

[Justice]

59. Because Of The Way You Make Your Point

If Kerry were my number one, the story I'd be pushing is not - so what if some of his votes were obtained thru slimy politics - he had enough legitimate votes to win.

Slimy politics is bad - even for winners.

Kerry has some really great stories to tell coming out of Iowa and NH - why not focus on those?

[THUNDER HANDS]

61. because this is what happens when you post positive Kerry stuff

You get attacked by two dozen overzealous, lets just say 'other candidate' supporters who will tear your candidate down no matter how positive you are.

You can't win either way. And the only alternative is not posting anything.

And I refuse to do that.

[stickdog]

9. Media bashing affected less than 3% of NH's voters?

So how do you explain the fact that over 60% of Americans think Hussein was involved in 9/11?

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. they aren't democrats

Or, most of them aren't. At least the one's who vote in Dem primaries.

[stickdog]

60. You realize, don't you, that over 40% of NH's primary voters were not

registered Dems?

[Anwen]

15. Excellent point. --nt--

[citizen snips]

16. This thread is full of nonsense.

How can you represent numbers with dirty tricks? :shrug:

[THUNDER HANDS]

26. simple, just imagine

How many people it would be possible to trick.

10,000? No, that's too big, you'd need an army to trick that many people.

5,000? Nah, still too big.

1,000? Maybe, but it would take longer than a week to reach 1,000 people.

500 is probably a high number, but I wanted to pick something round.

[citizen snips]

36. Don't gloat.

We all know how many votes Kerry won. Posting stuff like this only causes more anger.

[THUNDER HANDS]

45. so I should be ashamed my guy won?

And not point out that he won by a margin so large that dirty tricks couldn't have possibly affected the outcome.

I'm sorry if it sounds like gloating. But it's not as if there's a ton of Kerry supporters on here to defend him as loudly as I do.

[citizen snips]

48. I know how you feel.

But the way you presented your information by saying "we will give you 500 votes" and "Kerry still won by a margin of 10,000 votes" can
be considered gloating and offensive.

Support Kerry all you want by talking about his war record or his experience. What you posted just causes more discontent and anger.

[THUNDER HANDS]

50. that's a fair point

I'll try to take a step back before posting something in that way again.

[Justice]

19. Magic Rat Is Saying Ends Justify Means

he does not speak for Kerry or other Kerry supporters, IMO.

But his statements are shameful.

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. I'm not even admitting dirty tricks

I'm saying IF.

[WI_DEM]

22. and Dean came in about 30,000 votes ahead of his

nearest opponent. I don't begrudge Kerry's win, but 61% of NH 62% of Iowa voters voted against Kerry. This race has just begun and we will not let the media tell us it is over.

[THUNDER HANDS]

29. 62% of Iowa voted against Kerry!

Ha!

And 82% of Iowa voted against Dean.
ANd 98% voted against Clark.

[WI_DEM]

41. you are not being a very gracious winner

imo.

[sistersofmercy]

30. And so what would that percentage be for those who voted against

Dean? Somewhere around 75-76%?

[sistersofmercy]

23. ummmm.....

er...ummm...er...BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[FubarFly]

24. Howard Dean's voters could have been transferable.

If Dean lost in a spirited, but fair fight. As it stands, Kerry can still get enough voters to give him the nomination, but not enough to defeat b*sh. Kerry needs to either bring in new voters, or strengthen the base. He is doing neither.

[teevee99]

25. because of you and the way kerry people act...

i dislike your candidate when before I just didn't care.

good job, coolay.

[THUNDER HANDS]

32. I know it sounds so awful to actually bring facts into a discussion

I'll go back to just watching everyone pile on Kerry here and not say anything and act like Kerry has nobody who cares about him on this board.

[kaitykaity]

34. There are no facts in your original post.

There are assumptions, allusions, innuendo.

No facts at all.

[THUNDER HANDS]

39. *ahem* - 26,441

the ONLY fact that matters.

[kaitykaity]

42. Your post uses all kinds of attitude,

insinuitation, innuendo, blah, blah, blah, to
tell non-Kerry supporters "we won, you lost, move
on, get over it".

THOSE AREN'T FACTS.

The number is the number, you can do what you want
with it. Obviously, you have chosen (repeat the
above).

:eyes:

[THUNDER HANDS]

43. obviously the rest of it was made up

And the point wasn't "we won, you lost, move on, get over it."

The point was, "stop making excuses and false claims as to why your candidate lost."

Dean lost because he got less votes. Period. End of story.

[kaitykaity]

49. We know he lost. You rubbing it in isn't helping ANYBODY.

We're trying to figure out why so we can fix it. We support our guy, and we want him to win as much as you want your guy to win. Your dancing up and down and telling us how stupid we are only makes us dig in our heels all that much more.

The point absolutely is "we won, you lost, move on, get over it."

[THUNDER HANDS]

51. it really...in all honesty...is not that at all

And I never said any Dean supporter was stupid. Please don't put words in my mouth (or keyboard).

I just don't want anyone saying Kerry won because he cheated when the facts clearly show that not to be the case.

[kaitykaity]

54. I've never said I thought he cheated either.

I didn't mean to put words on your keyboard. I just meant that the way the whole thing was presented says "it doesn't matter if this stuff is true or not, he still won". Implying, of course, . . .

My protest is with the whole attitude.

[THUNDER HANDS]

56. that's fair then

I usually don't post like this, but these past few days my buttons have been pushed to the max. :hi:

[kaitykaity]

62. Mine, too, man.

Mine too. Makes you just want to go and beat up something. I need to find one of those demolition derby places where they let you smash up old cars with a baseball bat. :D

[FubarFly]

38. It's not the board you should worry about.

But if you are concerned, a little graciousness could go a long way.

[THUNDER HANDS]

40. I tried being gracious

And Kerry gets stomped all over here still. And I'm not going to sit here and let him get torn down in post after post.

Just because I'm not in the majority here about who I support does not mean that I'm going to slink off into a corner and hide from the opponent's supporters.

They have as much right to bash John Kerry as I have to defend him.

[FubarFly]

44. Of course you have the right to defend him.

It's HOW you defend him that will make a difference. This is my advice as a concerned Democrat, and please take it for what it's worth. But if Kerry, and his supporters, don't start building bridges now, when the media assault comes- and it will, you will find yourselves standing far more alone then you may care to be.

[THUNDER HANDS]

46. building bridges?

Have you READ half the stuff that's written on this board?

"I'll vote for ABB...or Kerry."

"I'd vote for Bush before I'd vote for Kerry."

"If Kerry is the nominee it's all over."

I think any bridges to Kerry will be crossed by those who see the bigger picture. Those who would not vote for him aren't going to change their minds just because I decided to "play nice."

[FubarFly]

52. I'm a Dean supporter.

I know a thing or to about dealing with ugliness. Much of it coming from the Kerry camp, BTW. The bigger picture is that the Party is on the verge of a fracturing that will make the Greens in 2000 look like a tea party. Much of the anti-war crowd is getting ready to bolt. I'm seeing signs of it every day, everywhere I look. Negativity only feeds this beast. Take a time out from the DU food fight and look around, you'll see what I am talking about.

[THUNDER HANDS]

58. then why did Kerry get the anti-war vote in both states?

[FubarFly]

65. That's a pittance compared to what he may lose.

Maybe because I'm in contact with more Dean supporters, I have a different perspective than you do. It's the anti-war voters who didn't vote for Kerry that I am talking about. I've literally talked to over a hundred Dean and Kucinich supporters in the last week, and I can count on one hand- well maybe two- the number of folks who said they would still vote for Kerry. Many of these folks were ABB. People are pissed about what went down in Iowa, and they are pissed at the way Dean's grassroots is being derided and destroyed by the Party. I am too. The only reason I'm even making an effort here is because the thought of b*sh's simian smirk during his forthcoming coronation ceremory, is enough to make me violently and permanently ill.

[THUNDER HANDS]

69. then you, and other anti-war supporters have a choice to make

You can choose (presuming Kerry gets the nomination, which, by the tone of your post seems to be your prediction) to vote for Kerry, or you can choose four more years of war, debt, and two possibly three right-wing judges being nominated to the Supreme Court.

Choose wisely.

[FubarFly]

70. You have it backwards.

Kerry has to earn my vote. I need to be wooed.

If he doesn't at least win me over, there is no way he will win enough of the base to make a difference. And yes, I am prepared to accept and face the consequences of a b*sh victory. With the way things are going, I hope you are as well.

Now of course, this is a hypothethical situation IF Kerry gets the nomination, which is still far from certain. I am still very confident in a Dean comeback. I'm sorry if there was any confusion.

[THUNDER HANDS]

71. I'm sorry but I cannot accept 4 more years of Bush

Under any circumstances. I just hope this is a sentiment shared among the anti-war crowd now, right in the middle of the most important Dem primary EVER, and emotions are just running high.

[FubarFly]

73. If you don't want more b*sh, then I will hope you will heed

my advice, and not step on the heads of fellow Democrats when they are down. I am a reasonable person. Many people I know are not. High emotions now will turn into very real divisions later. I've seen it before, and I am very much aware of it now. I am hopeful that it's not already too late.

Good luck to you.

[creativelcro]

31. A single "glitch" in FL with the same optical machines that gave

Kerry victory gave Gore a -16000 votes. Nothin magic about -16000, could have been much more and perhaps it was in other precints...

[THUNDER HANDS]

35. every optical machine in New Hampshire

has paper ballots.

Sorry, please try again.

[pnziii]

55. 61% didn't want Kerry

The Majority of NH voters did NOT want Kerry

[THUNDER HANDS]

57. in a seven person field

The majority of NH voters didn't want anyone. So does that mean no Democrat should get the nomination?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. That is indeed the conclusion that many here seem to have arrived at.

[NashVegas]

67. Feeling a Little Defensive, Are We?

So much for a confident victory.

[THUNDER HANDS]

68. oh yeah, I'm shaking

:scared:

I'm just pointing out the fact that we won soundly. If you'd like to think I'm being defensive that's your right.

I'm not, however.

I'm very confident. Kerry will win South Carolina, I predicted this the night after New Hampshire.

[Exgeneral]

72. Hey, if you 10x those numbers

you might be close

As far as I could tell, 39-44% of them were sheep.
Spin THAT

[CalProf]

74. Kerry people! Cool it!

Four weeks ago it was looking like we'd be the ones in here kvetching about why we lost. Things worked out differently and our guy is on top at the moment. That's no particular reason to lord it over anybody.

People in this sort of forum are very intense about their candidates. It's great to see... it means we're going to match the right wing zealots in intensity and committment this time around in November. But inevitably, this also means the people in this forum feel intensely bad when their candidates don't win.

So of course they complain and make accusations. We'd be doing the same if we'd lost Iowa and N.H. (hell, some of us are anyway). Let it pass. We all need to be on the same page when November comes: sending Bush back to Crawford.

[Moderator]

75. Locking...

1. If you start a thread in this forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. The moderators have the sole authority to decide whether a thread topic is inflammatory.