Clark Challenges Kerry on '92 Affirmative Action Remarks

[Fleshdancer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/30/politics/campaign/30CND-CAMP.html

General Clark had vowed not to attack his Democratic rivals and recently took them to task for critical comments some had made about Dr. Dean. When fellow candidates assailed Dr. Dean for statements he made regarding Medicare in the mid-1990's, General Clark said that he did not think such history was relevant to the current race for president.

But today, General Clark, who made two appearances here before largely African-American audiences, at Benedict College and at a candidates' forum sponsored by an African-American advocacy group, offered unprompted references to comments about affirmative action made by Mr. Kerry in a speech at Yale University 12 years ago.

"Back in 1992, Senator Kerry wrote it was `inherently limited and divisive' and `fostered a culture of dependency,' " General Clark told journalists after the candidates' forum. "Affirmative action's a very important program to me," adding: "If people want to question it, that's their right. But if they do, they ought to admit it, because we're not going to beat George Bush with old style fudge-it-up politics."

At the Democratic candidate debate on Thursday in Greenville, Tom Brokaw of NBC News asked Mr. Kerry about his remarks on affirmative action, saying that he had "expressed some reservations about affirmative action as it's currently constituted" and that it "represented a culture of dependency."

[incapsulated]

1. And about time

You don't win being a boyscout, you become roadkill.

His point was valid and based on Kerry's own words.

Let's rock.

[Dark Star]

3. I'll 2nd this part:

"His point was valid and based on Kerry's own words."

:hi:

[TexasPatriot]

2. wait... the NYTimes is talking about Clark

didn't they get the memo? it's supposed to be "Clark who?"

[Dark Star]

4. Heads will roll!

LOL

[xultar]

41. they'll skin'em first in acid

[ajacobson]

47. X, that's a wicked smilie

eom

[robbedvoter]

5. But, but, but...Kerry said he didn't say it and he never lies, non?Or...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62318-2004Jan30.html
.
Moderator Tom Brokaw asked Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.) why he had said it was a mistake for Democrats to focus on the South during previous national elections. "I never said Democrats made a mistake," Kerry replied. "I never said that at all."
But in a town hall meeting Monday in Hanover, N.H., in response to a question about electoral strategy, Kerry said, "Everyone always makes the mistake of looking South."

[Fleshdancer]

6. So does anyone here believe affirmative action fosters a....

...culture of dependency?

[returnable]

7. Clark's had to answer questions about his past remarks...

...so why not shine the light on Kerry's comments?

Good for Clark.

[Fleshdancer]

9. and don't forget how Dean has had to do the same

Kerry shouldn't get any special treatment.

[quinnox]

8. Clark should have been more agressive in the debate

He admits this in the story. He won't go anywhere if he doesn't try to go after his rivals. He can do it in a civil way, but at least show why he is a better choice.

[maddezmom]

16. is this an attack or just questioning Kerry's statement?

I don't see it as an attack.

[Fleshdancer]

18. I don't think it's an attack

but the media loves a fight so the language reflects their absurdity.

[quinnox]

19. It is mild

And I am suggesting Clark has to get a little dirty if he wants to attempt to win this thing.

[maddezmom]

24. guess he can't be a boy scout forever :)

[blm]

10. Important to note that at the time Kerry was an advocate for

tightening the LEGAL language in Affirmative Action, just like Clinton who was campaigning at the time.

The GOP was using the looser, existing language to take AA to court and get it thrown out completely.

[Fleshdancer]

14. okaaay, but what about the "fosters a culture of dependency" part?

To say that AA fosters a culture of dependency sounds more negative towards the entire concept rather than just wanting to tighten the legal language.

[bigtree]

23. he used that as an example of other's views in a speech affirming support

for affirmative action. He sought, like President Clinton to 'mend it, not end it. In every vote and in every statement of his view he has been a solid supporter of affirmative action. Taking one quote out of context is slippery politics that I think is beneath Wes Clark.

[sandnsea]

22. Somebody was for "class-based" AA

Isn't that right?? Who was that??

[windansea]

11. looks like Wes got my memo...heh heh

:)

[slinkerwink]

12. good for clark!

[ibegurpard]

13. Typical

Affirmative Action is a "losing" issue for someone with Presidential ambitions.

[Fleshdancer]

15. is that what the polls say?

:)

[maryallen]

30. Not in South Carolina or ...

the South, in general.

[ibegurpard]

32. Maybe that explains why he's trying to "refine" his stance on this issue.

eom

[bigtree]

17. Read the speech. He was reciting other's concerns not his

"If you read my speech from 1992, you will see that I stated very clearly that I support affirmative action," Kerry said. "There was no equivocation. What I objected to then, and still do today, are racial quotas that divide America and create resentment among Americans."

He stated this at the beginning of the speech containing the culture of dependency example, and at the end of the same speech.

In every vote on the issue and in every statement of 'his own' views on affirmative action he has never wavered. To represent his position as any other than full support is smoke without substance.

[Fleshdancer]

20. is there a link to the speech? n/t

[bigtree]

29. I lost my file on this I can't find it anywhere

But I would demand that Gen. Clark provide the full reference to allow context before making broad statements insinuating that these are John Kerry's opinions. John Kerry has said that in the same speech he affirmed his support for affirmative action, at the beginning and at the end of the speech. BTW Gen. Clark is the only one that I have heard that doesnt refer to it as a speech.

It was at Yale if anyone wants to go hunting for it.

[bicentennial_baby]

33. Here's a related article:

Past 'quota' views shadow 2 Democrats

http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/janwayne.html

It's about Kerry & Lieberman

A Snippet:

"Those changes had just begun to occur when Kerry, against the advice of aides and supporters, addressed the issue in a speech to Yale students on March 30, 1992. Kerry emphasized that he supports affirmative action and lauded its successes. ''But,'' he added, ''there is a negative side and we can no longer simply will away the growing consensus of perception within America's white majority. We must be willing to acknowledge publicly what we know to be true: that just as the benefits to America of affirmative action cannot be denied, neither can the costs.'' Part of that cost, Kerry suggested, was what he called reverse discrimination. ''Not only by legislation, but by administrative order and court decree, a vast and bewildering apparatus of affirmative action rules and guidelines has been constructed,'' he said. ''And somewhere within that vast apparatus conjured up to fight racism there exists a reality of reverse discrimination that actually engenders racism.''

Kerry was excoriated by affirmative action supporters who saw the speech as a craven attempt to broaden his appeal to white voters. He maintained that he wanted to ask tough questions that were typically avoided. ''This issue of white resentment cannot simply be dismissed,'' he had said in the speech, later adding that, ''We cannot hope to make further racial progress when the plurality of whites believe, as they do today according to recent data, that it is they, not others, who suffer most from discrimination.''

[sandnsea]

21. Kerry fending off AA attacks

From people like Howard Dean who wanted AA based on class not race. Kerry stands up for AA, Bill Clinton and 'mend it, don't end it' and "good" Democrats beat him up for it. :puke:

[Toucano]

25. John Kerry: Fudge-it-upper!

I do like that expression!

He has to go on the offensive. Someone has to put Kerry's feet to the fire like everyone else has suffered.

I think that's what everyone said when Dean and Clark were being hammered.

[bigtree]

26. from the cited article

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/30/politics/campaign/30CND-CAMP.html
(use password to get access: indianz)

"Actually, Tom, that's not what I said," Mr. Kerry said. "What I described was what the critics were saying about it and about the growing questions about it."

He added: "There were a great many questions in the country about how it was being implemented. We wanted to keep it. I've always supported it. In the very speech in which I raised what those perceptions were, I said at the beginning, `I support affirmative action.' I said at the end, `I support affirmative action.' "

Today, Mr. Kerry continued his defense of his record on affirmative action and said his comments 12 years ago had been misquoted and misinterpreted. In an interview on CNN after a rally here, he asserted that he had not said that affirmative action was divisive but rather that his stance had been "mend it, don't end it. I have always voted for it, I have always supported it, I've never ever been different," he added.

Representative James Clyburn of South Carolina, an influential African-American congressman who endorsed Mr. Kerry this week, issued a statement today saying that he was "sorry that General Clark is launching negative attacks."

"The truth is that John Kerry has stood strong all his life to defend affirmative action," Mr. Clyburn said. "John Kerry, President Clinton, myself and many other supporters of affirmative action fought together to overcome adverse judicial decisions and to ensure the survival of affirmative action."

[Toucano]

27. Negative attacks?

When Clark does it, it's launching negative attacks.

When Kerry does it, it's stating the record.

That's seems reasonable!

[bigtree]

31. "his comments 12 years ago had been misquoted and misinterpreted"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Really silly of Clark to play the race card

Think of how much better things in this nation would be for minorities had he not voted for Reagan and Bush I (Rodney King anyone?)

[Toucano]

43. Gimme a break.

I know Clark single handedly elected Ronald Reagan and Bush 1.

It had nothing to do with the weakness of our candidates Mondale and Dukakis.

[robbedvoter]

34. BUSTED!!!

For Immediate Release
http://clark04.com/press/release/214/
Date: January 30, 2004
Dr. Mary Frances Berry Responds to Senator Kerry's Remarks On Affirmative Action
Today, in a conference call with reporters, Dr. Mary Frances Berry, Chair of the United States Commission on Civil Rights, made the following remarks:
Back in 1992, when I read what Senator Kerry was saying about affirmative action, I felt like someone had kicked me in the stomach. I was deeply disturbed, because Senator Kerry was saying exactly the same thing that opponents of affirmative action were saying - that it was reverse discrimination, that the policy was a failure, that all it did was perpetuate racism. And even worse, he made no suggestions about what legal steps should be taken to improve it.
Last night, at the debate, I was surprised when he invoked the name of Bill Clinton in discussing the "mend it, don't end it" approach to affirmative action. President Clinton was not yet in office when Senator Kerry made that 1992 speech. And once Clinton was in office, and we were engaged in the difficult debate about the future of affirmative action, Senator Kerry was nowhere in sight. While we were struggling to do all we could to make progress on these issues, he was simply missing in action.

[bigtree]

36. what a distorted bunch of crap

He said he supported Clintons efforts he didn't say the speech was about that! Folks bending over backwards to twist his statements into opposition to affirmative action don't square with his votes and actual views expressed in his statements. The quote was his reflection on what other's had said, period. Berry is just way off in her swipe.

[robbedvoter]

37. I dunno why, but I take this lady's word over yours, or Kerry's

Ever since the 2000 debacle. she's been a hero of mine. If she says she remembers Kerry's words, she does.(the fact that Brokaw corroborates it barely adds anything - although he is always researching his hits. When he asked Kerry what he thought about the French in the last debate he moderated, he meant his St Patric's day remarks:
I may not be Irish, but at least I am not French
Kerry's answer? "The French are he French" "What does it mean?" "Exactly what I said"
How not to take this guy's word over Mary Frances Berry? :shrug:

[bigtree]

39. His wife is fluent in French and I have heard him speak it also

For whatever that is worth.

[robbedvoter]

42. It's worth nothing. He was spouting Karl hate rhetoric.

The wingnuts attacked him saying "He looks French"
Rather then ignore or call them on their hatemongering, he bought the ugly propaganda and defended himself: "John "at least I am not French" Kerry.
Pretty much like the mustard with the same name.(They also were not French)
Yup. That's a guy who is for affirmative action. Not a bigot bone in is body. Riiighto!

[Zinnola]

35. This is not an attack by Clark

He is rightfully calling on John Kerry to look at some of his many inconsistent statements on his record. Good for Clark.

[bigtree]

38. Any one can cut and paste statements

But this statement about dependency is not his view. He said it in the same speech that it represented what other's had said. That is not his view. To wave it around like some are doing is slippery politics. I've heard Berry shoot from the lip before. She's wrong here.


Kerry: "I have Fought for civil rights And equal opportunity my whole life"


November 25, 2003
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2003_1125c.html

For Immediate Release
Council Bluffs, IA -

While campaigning in Iowa today with a plan to strengthen public education for all Americans in the first 100 days of a Kerry Administration, John Kerry issued the following response to Dick Gephardt's criticism today of his position on affirmative action:

"I have fought for civil rights and equal opportunity for every American my whole life. As a student, a prosecutor, and a Senator, I have worked to open the doors of opportunity for every citizen so that we all can fully participate in the American dream. Mr. Gephardt is a good man, but on this issue, I take a backseat to no one."

In a 1992 Speech, John Kerry Had the Courage to Stand Up for Affirmative Action & Supported Bill Clinton's "Mend it, Don't End it" Programs

1992 Kerry Speech at Yale University Verifies His Support for Affirmative Action - "I support affirmative action. Affirmative action has opened doors for women, persons with disabilities and countless minorities. It has helped create a large and growing black middle class. It has helped minority businesses and opened up bastions of prejudice like the Alabama State Police, which had no black members at all in a state that is 30 percent black. It has caused employers to rethink the standards and tests they use to qualify people for employment. And it has given the benefit of the doubt to diversity over uniformity on campuses and in workplaces across America." - John Kerry

"We Don't Want to Lose" Affirmative Action - "I thought I left it very clear - evidently not clear enough - that affirmative action is necessary and is something we have to have. We don't want to lose it."

In Yale Speech, John Kerry Expressed His "Commitment to the Cause of Civil Rights" - "Kerry expressed his commitment to the cause of civil rights and the 'positive side' of affirmative action, which he said 'has opened doors for women, persons with disabilities and countless minorities. It has helped create a large and . . . growing black middle class. It has helped minority businesses and opened up bastions of prejudice like the Alabama State Police, which had no black members at all in a state that is 30 percent black."

Progressive Group Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting Says Media Distorted Kerry's True Message Supporting Affirmative Action - The self described "progressive, national media watch group" known as Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting noted that there was a detectable level of "distortion" in the reporting of Kerry's 1992 speech to Yale University supporting Affirmative Action. "In the case of Sen. Kerry's comments on affirmative action, however, the spin of some coverage approaches distortion. In his speech at Yale, Kerry did say that affirmative action should not be the overriding focus of a civil rights agenda, because workplace gains do not necessarily touch the lives of those most in need. But he also said, "I want to be clear here. I do support affirmative action, not rhetorically but really." The "negative side" of the policy was, for Kerry, the "perception" it engendered in many whites: He cited a poll by People for the American Way that indicated white people believe they are more discriminated against than minorities. Congress, Kerry said, has an obligation "to correct whatever false data or preconceptions have fed the belief that is evidenced in this poll." Affirmative action, Kerry said, has "made our country a better, fairer place to live," but public misunderstanding of the policy --which Kerry acknowledged has been "exaggerated and exploited by politicians eager to use it" --has created an "obstacle" to interracial communication. http://www.fair.org/extra/best-of-extra/new-candor.html>

Ted Kennedy "Lauded Kerry's" Yale Speech as "Thoughtful & Constructive" - "Sen. Edward Kennedy, in a statement last night, lauded Kerry's speech as 'a thoughtful and constructive contribution to the important national debate on race discrimination and the most effective means of eliminating it. Civil rights has always been the unfinished business of America, but for the past 12 years, the Reagan and Bush administrations have used race to divide Americans for political advantage. Senator Kerry's address is an impressive antidote to that kind of racial politics."

Boston Globe Editorial: Kerry Speech Defended Affirmative Action -"Kerry's speech is not an attack on affirmative action, but an attempt to defend it in a way it often isn't - honestly."

Reiterated His "Strong Support for Affirmative Action" - "Kerry reiterated his strong support for affirmative action in an interview last night with the Globe, the senator acknowledged that he sought to provoke public debate by "asking the unasked questions" in his speech Monday at Yale University."

John Kerry Wanted to Keep Affirmative Action by Mending It-Not Ending It - "Affirmative action, if you recall, back in the 1990s--Bill Clinton said this, too--needed to be mended. I was one of the early people saying we have to mend it, don't end it. That's precisely what we did. We tried to end the quota concept and make sure we kept affirmative action. I have always supported affirmative action. I even had that very paragraph bracketed. On the front end of the paragraph and on the back end of the paragraph, I said, "I support affirmative action. We need to mend it, don't end it." That's what we did, and I'm glad the Supreme Court of the United States has affirmed that we need to continue." - John Kerry

Repeatedly Backs "Affirmative Action Initiatives - "In the decade since , Kerry has settled into more familiar Democratic ground, repeatedly backing affirmative action initiatives. Although it doesn't appear that he has made similarly pointed remarks since, he has defended the speech. "What I objected to then, and still do today, are racial quotas that divide America and create resentment," Kerry said in a written statement issued to The Associated Press for this story. "I was embracing the same kind of 'mend it, don't end it' approach to affirmative action that Bill Clinton later advocated as president. I was also challenging the country to build a comprehensive urban agenda."

2003: Kerry Stands By His Support of Affirmative Action - ''If you read my speech from 1992, you will see that I stated very clearly that I support affirmative action,' Kerry said. 'There was no equivocation. What I objected to then, and still do today, are racial quotas that divide America and create resentment among Americans.' The Massachusetts senator said his speech was made to ''address the anger over affirmative action without undermining its goals.''

John Kerry Has the Courage to Defend Affirmative Action in America
Will Preserve Affirmative Action - John Kerry believes in an America where we take common sense steps to ensure that our schools and workplaces reflect the full face of America. He has consistently opposed efforts in the Senate to undermine or eliminate affirmative action programs and supports programs that seek to enhance diversity, for example, by fostering the growth of minority small businesses.

Opposed Newt Gingrich & the Republican Party's Attempts to Roll Back Affirmative Action Gains - In 1995, when the Republican Congress tried to roll back the important gains made under Affirmative Action, John Kerry stood up to Newt Gingrich and Phil Gramm. Kerry opposed the Gramm amendment which prohibited the awarding of federal contracts based on the race, color, national origin or gender of the contractor-an attempt to roll back Affirmative Action.

On the Record for Affirmative Action - "We deserve a president of the United States who doesn't call fairness to minorities a special preference,' said Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts."

[robbedvoter]

40. Your post surely proves it. Berry however says:

And once Clinton was in office, and we were engaged in the difficult debate about the future of affirmative action, Senator Kerry was nowhere in sight. While we were struggling to do all we could to make progress on these issues, he was simply missing in action.
She was there. He wasn't.
Same guy who said last night:
"I never said Democrats made a mistake," Kerry replied. "I never said that at all."
But in a town hall meeting Monday in Hanover, N.H., in response to a question about electoral strategy, Kerry said, "Everyone always makes the mistake of looking South."
Same guy who said "Nobody asked me" on the Florida electoral votes challenge. I am here to testify: I called his office and I asked. You sir,Mr Kerry are a liar.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. Good for Clark

He is right of course.

[wellstone dem]

45. More recent statements demonstrate the same attitude

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A63270-2004Jan7¬Found=true

When commenting on Clark's plan to eliminate federal taxes for those earning less than $50,000 Kerry said that it might mean people at that income level would not feel as responsible for the Government.

Kerry's statement that working families wouldn't feel a sense of responsibility for their country if they didn't pay federal income taxes is repulsive.

Let's compare the numbers of people serving in the military from families at that income level with families at Kerry's income level and then we can talk about a "sense of responsibility."

Let's compare the percentage of income paid as state, sales, payroll, and property taxes at the $50,000 income level with Kerry's income level and then we can talk about a "sense of responsibility."

Let's compare the struggle to feed, clothe, shelter, educate, pay child care, and otherwise maintain a family at the $50,000 income level with those at his income level and then we can talk about a "sense of responsibility."

Kerry's insensitivity to the lives of working families is, to put it politely, astonishing.

But reading his previous statements about affirmative action, I am no longer astonished.

[incapsulated]

46. Kick

The more I read about this, the more pissed off I get.