Kerry Should Release His DD214

[dreissig]

It would help end all the speculation about Kerry's dates of service, how long he was in country, etc., if he were to release his Notice of Separation (DD214). The DD214 is an official document representing an individual's rank at the time of separation, medals won, time in combat, etc.

Kerry's two tours in Vietnam put together are short of one normal tour. Kerry's first "tour" - if you can call it that - was five months aboard the Gridley, a blue water ship moored far off the coast. Kerry's second tour was either three months or four months, depending on which source you get your information from. In any event it wasn't any greater than four months. Kerry was healthy and able-bodied when he boarded the plane back to the U.S.

One purpose of military records is to ensure that genuine heroes can be identified as such. It's not nitpicking to ask for authentication.

[Monte Carlo]

1. Maybe we should ask George W. Bush to open up his dossier first.

Instead of asking friends to release their intimate records, we should keep the hard focus on Bush.

Besides, WHAT speculation? Do you think the military hands out Purple Hearts as party favors?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. Oh no. Hidden records again?

:evilgrin:

[Bolo Boffin]

11. Oh, please, please, PLEASE let us have a look at W's DD214!

So many questions would be answered. Unfortunately, Cheney's energy meeting records are probably sitting on top of W's DD214.

[dreissig]

24. Not Planning

I wasn't planning on voting for Cheney.

[bigtree]

95. Cheney=Nixon

The Man Behind The White House Power Plays
http://www.hnn.us/articles/printfriendly/1192.html

Clearly, Vice President Dick Cheney is the force behind the White House's effort to enhance presidential power, and limit the powers of those on Capitol Hill. This is evident because President Bush simply does not possess the mental acumen, or experience, to play the game his White House has instituted; but Cheney does. This is not to say Bush doesn't embrace the undertaking, for he obviously does, but simply that Cheney is almost certainly the moving force behind it.

His reference to "thirty-four years" is quite clear. About thirty-four years ago, in 1969, Dick Cheney joined the Nixon Administration - serving in a number of positions at the Cost of Living Council, and later the Office of Economic Opportunity. When Nixon was forced from office, Cheney helped Vice President Ford make the transition to the Oval Office and in 1975, Cheney became President Ford's White House chief of staff.

Cheney's reference to the erosion of presidential powers thus appears to relate to the Nixon presidency and Watergate, and then to the Reagan presidency and Iran-contra.

Cheney watched Nixon "throw down a gauntlet to Congress, the bureaucracy, the media, and the Washington establishment and challenge them to epic battle" - to quote the disgraced former president's memoirs. But for Watergate, Nixon would have succeeded.

[dreissig]

107. Cheney's a Lizard

There was a thing a couple of years ago about Cheney being a reptile. I remember it was hilarious, but I'm not sure if it was a cartoon or a photo-shopped JPG.

[molly]

3. AHEM - at least he went unlike some people that shall

remain nameless. I sure would not have liked to have been under those conditions for 5 minutes. My husband told me that the life expectancy of a LT was not long over there.

[dreissig]

22. Life Expectancy

Kerry was a Navy lieutenant, which is a higher rank than a lieutenant in the other branches of the service. The fact that Kerry cut his tour short may or may not be reflective of his attitude towards danger. However, it is a fact that a healthy, able-bodied John Kerry boarded the plane leaving Vietnam after only three (or possibly four) months after his arrival. I have not located any discussion of his motives, but I'm still looking.

[molly]

23. My husband was a Navy lieutenant fresh out of OCS

he was assigned to submarines - thank goodness!

What motives - what is the big deal here?

[dreissig]

39. Does Your Husband

Does your husband have an opinion on officers who petition for reassignment from combat eight months before their tour is up? The officers I encountered 35 years ago were somewhat down on the practice.

Just asking . . . .

[molly]

49. My husband has an opinion of Viet Nam but he had to go

if you were around back then, it was a horrible thing. Boy-men were conflicted because they had fathers who told them glory stories about WWII - yet this was a different war and a very differnet arena - an arena not familar to strategic planners. We had never fought in jungles. These kids were not looked upon as heroes when they returned - some of them where spat upon. The Viet used children and babies in their assaults. It was a very different war than the wars they studied in their training.

To answer your question - it was a war where you had to go - many left the country and those that went - went because they felt they had to. The officers - for some reason beyond my understanding - had a higher rate of death than the enlisted. I consider my husband as the most honest giving person I can think of, but he was thrilled when he got submarine assignment.

[dreissig]

63. Higher Death Rate

No, the death rate for officers was not higher than that for the enlisted. I don't know where your husband got that.

[sangha]

116. I read officer's had a higher death rate also

.

[dreissig]

119. A Cite?

Can you provide a link for that? It's extremely counter-intuitive.

[sangha]

121. No, I can't and neither can you

.

[dreissig]

196. Data Capture

Vietnam KIA sites display both the date of death and the date the tour began, indicating that this information is available somewhere. That might give us an idea of the life-saving advantage Kerry got when he successfully petitioned for an early return. What percent of the KIA's died in the first three months of their tour? It's probably greater than the percentage of KIA's who died in the last three months of their tour.

In Kerry's case, the first three months and the last three months were approximately the same. That fact has interesting implications.

[kurtyboy]

58. I think that the rule was that ...

After being wounded in combat three different times in the service of the Nation (3 Purple Hearts) EVERYONE got a free trip home.

Seems reasonable enough.

[dreissig]

85. Kerry's Wounds

A decision to send a soldier home after completing only a third of his commitment isn't automatic, especially in Kerry's circumstances. He was an officer, and he had requested the assignment from which he was seeking a transfer.

The worst of Kerry's wounds left him unfit for duty only two days. The other two wounds did not disable him at all. War is not a board game in which arbitrary rules trump sound military judgement.

A healthy, able-bodied John Kerry boarded the plane back to the U.S. only three (possibly four) months after he arrived in country. Perhaps the Kerry campaign staff can locate a few other soldiers who lucked out the way Kerry did, so we could have a basis of comparison.

[bigtree]

99. independentsforkerry.org

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/john_kerry_mj.html

Kerry enlisted in the Navy after his graduation from Yale in 1966, volunteering for action in Vietnam.

Duty called, Kerry maintains - it was as simple as that. "It wasn't as if John went there gung-ho," his younger brothers Cameron, told me. "He wasn't burning to go fight in that war." After Officer Candidate School, the twenty-four-year-old lieutenant junior grade, offered himself up for Operation Sea Lords, an effort to control the rivers of the Mekong Delta via constant and often improvised, "swift boat" patrols gunning up and down the Mekong River and its tributaries. As a skipper, "John Kerry always went for the throat," recalls former crewmate Del Sandusky. "He wanted to be in the middle of the war, wherever it was." In February 1969, a Viet Cong on the shore of the Bay Hap River ambushed Kerry's boat with a B-40 rocket, blowing out the windows. Kerry turned the gunboat toward the fire and thumped it into the bank. Ten feet from shore, the VC popped up with rocket launcher aimed at the boat; rather than firing, though, he turned and fled into the mangroves. Kerry leapt from the gunboat's bow, chased him behind a hooch, and killed him. Two weeks later, on the same river, an under water mine exploded beside Kerry's boat, wounding his arm and catapulting one of has crewmen into the water. The riverbanks exploded with machine gun fire, and snipers took potshots at the man splashing in the river. Kerry turned the boat back upriver, straight into enemy fire, and with a bleeding arm he pulled the man back aboard: "It didn't matter to us that he wanted to get into the shit." Sandusky says. "We knew he would always get us out of it."

Several weeks later Lieutenant (j.g.) John Kerry boarded a civilian flight home. His four months in-country had yielded a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts (two arm wounds and a bullet in the leg), but something else, too: dead friends, disillusionments, and uneasy doubts about the war from which he was returning. On the long flight across the Pacific Kerry was jolted from sleep by a nightmare - one of a thousand such dreams that would place him back in his gunboat on a Jungle river at night, diving to the deck during an ambush, screaming, "Down, down, get down, move," nightmares that even decades later would send him bolting from his bed and crashing into furniture. On that plane home, passengers shifted gingerly away from the uniformed officer, averting their eyes from his. Something is wrong with me, Kerry thought. But it wasn't just him.

AND THEN COMES THE AFTER. It's never far from him, the war. At one point, I ask him if it's like Chekhov's old playwriting adage: If there's a gun onstage in the first act, it must go off in the third. "No, not like that." he says quietly, but the gun always seems to appear, as unpredictably as the nightmares that still dog his sleep (though less frequently now, he says). In Boston, Kerry and I are discussing has poetry, a longtime and private avocation. He begins buoyantly, "I don't claim to be a poet at all; I just like the expression, the form of it," he tells me. "I like Pablo Neruda, who's a great romantic. I like all the Romantics: Percy Shelly and Byron and Keats. I like Kipling; I like to mimic some of that doggerelish stuff. Oh gosh, obviously Yeats. I used to read poetry on airplanes - to get the images, you know? When I was in high school we formed a poetry group. I don't even know if we had a name, though it was not the Dead Poets Society." It's a joke, but then Kerry slows, and for a moment he seems to amble away somewhere inside his mind, to a place friends and family say he often returns. "One of them," he says, "was a buddy who was killed in Vietnam, Peter Johnson," and the buoyancy is gone. It wasn't a joke after all.

Peter Johnson, Dickie Pershing, Don Droz, Robert Worthington...it was with those ghosts in mind that a twenty-seven-year-old John Kerry, in April 1971, wearing his Navy fatigues, took a seat before the senate Foreign Relations Committee. Behind him in the gallery, a longer-haired and scragglier contingent of fellow veterans jostled for space, craining their necks for a better view. In the preceding days, more than three thousand such veterans - organized under the banner of Vietnam Veterans Against the War and with Kerry as their spokesman - had marched on the Capitol, many in wheelchairs, many on crutches, clamoring for an end to the war from which they'd returned. Kerry, a telegenic speaker with unimpeachable war-hero credentials, had been tapped to give public voice to those nightmares.

[dreissig]

104. Three Months. Four Months, Max

The problem with all these "Glorious John Kerry" stories which have proliferated all over the Web is that they suggest he was there a lot longer than he was. He was there only three months, possibly four. When you net out the transit and training time, Kerry spent substantially less than an ordinary tour.

Kerry's short tour will certainly resonate with Iraq veterans as well. Every soldier dreams of getting home early and in one piece. Kerry seems to have exploited a loophole, and it's especially noticeable because Kerry volunteered for swift boat duty.

Democrats who think this won't be an issue are whistling in the dark. For many people it's a deal breaker.

[bigtree]

108. You have provided nothing more than innuendo

Your query is factless and unsupportable.

[dreissig]

117. Factless and Unsupportable

Even if it's factless and unsupportable, my query is at least answerable. What I'm looking for is some official statement of the time John Kerry was in Vietnam. Was it three months? Four months? Does Kerry's "tour" aboard the Gridley count as part of his Vietnam total?

He should provide a definitive answer to this question, which bears on what he learned as a soldier in Vietnam. Did John Kerry bug out the first chance he could? It's a legitimate question, IMO.

[sangha]

120. It's a "Do you still beat your wife?" question

No one has ever claimed that Kerry was in VN longer than he actually was. Kerry has no obligation to correct a lie he never told

Did John Kerry bug out the first chance he could? It's a legitimate question, IMO.

And here's the legitimate answer: Three Purple Hearts, Two Silver Stars and a Bronze

[dreissig]

155. Bugging Out

A healthy, able-bodied John Kerry boarded the place back to the U.S. only three (possibly four) months after he arrived in country. Does this constitute bugging out? Reasonable people may disagree.

[sangha]

118. I'd like to see a cite

The problem with all these "Glorious John Kerry" stories which have proliferated all over the Web is that they suggest he was there a lot longer than he was.

Please show me one story or person who says Kerry was in VN longer than he actually was.

Kerry's short tour will certainly resonate with Iraq veterans as well

Yes it will -"His four months in-country had yielded a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts (two arm wounds and a bullet in the leg), but something else, too: dead friends, disillusionments, and uneasy doubts about the war from which he was returning."

Three Purple Hearts is not a loophole. The only holes were in his body

[dreissig]

122. Two Tours

Every time the question of Kerry's time in Vietnam comes up, somebody always says, "Kerry served two tours". This is an artful way of suggesting that Kerry spent say, twenty months in country. But if you count the five months on board the Gridley - which is really not Vietnam duty at all - the most Kerry spent in country was four months. Not two tours. Not even one whole tour.

[sangha]

125. And yet, no one is confused!

I don't know of one person is confused about his dreissig. I've never heard anyone say that Kerry was in VN for two years, and you can't point to anyone either.

But yes, I'm sure everyone is confused. They just never talk about it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

132. ha........a DUer told me he served three tours

it was the subject of my first flame fight!

[sangha]

134. And I guess that mistake occurred

because Kerry's bio says he served two tours?

What's the issue here? How long he was actually in VN?

dreissig has already answered that and no one is disputing it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

182. the issue is the myth.

and people here are still promoting it.

[KC21304]

129. He was in the NAVY !!!!!!!.

Do Navy men only get to count the time actually on the ground, in the country ? I guess he should have subtracted the actual minutes he spent in the boats on the Mekong River also. This is so precious.

[bearfartinthewoods]

138. there is a BIG difference between on a river and being

on a ship off the coast. i don't see how anyoone can contest that.

[sangha]

142. You ignored the question

Do Navy men only get to count the time actually on the ground, in the country ?

[dreissig]

154. Let's See the DD214

Kerry's DD214 will tell us whether the Navy counts his time on board the Gridley as combat duty.

[ModerateMiddle]

167. Oh they absolutely WOULD consider it combat duty

if a soldier, or sailor, was in the theatre of operations, it is combat duty. If someone served somewhere and never got shot at, or wounded, would you say that they shirked their duty?

What is with you?

[dreissig]

169. Let's See the DD214

Part of the reason I'd like to see the DD214 is to answer this very question. Where did Kerry's tour aboard the Gridley take him? One source on the web says the ship sailed the Pacific through most of Kerry's tour, stopping "briefly" off the coast of Vietnam.

Is this Pacific duty? Or is it Vietnam duty? Let's see the DD214.

[ModerateMiddle]

166. My understanding of it

is that the Navy rules allow someone who has been wounded 3 times to request being relieved of the dangerous duty. It wasn't very long after Kerry arrived for his second tour that he became very disillusioned with the whole war. So when it came up that he could go home, he did. I also heard that he first made sure that his crew would be assigned to something safer, as well.

He volunteered to go to Nam out of a sense of duty, but before long, he really learned to hate what we as a country were doing there.

[dreissig]

173. Here It Is Again

It wasn't very long after Kerry arrived for his second tour that he became very disillusioned with the whole war

Kerry didn't have two tours, he had one very short tour. Was his time aboard the Gridley counted towards his Vietnam total? Let's see the DD214 and find out.

[Maddy McCall]

4. Have you ever, under enemy fire, taken a piece of shrapnel to the elbow?

You haven't? And you speculate on the authenticity of his heroism?

[kurtyboy]

60. And after having done that--

(taken the wound), gone back for more?

Kerry did, for his Brothers in Arms.

[NNN0LHI]

5. Perhaps Dean should bring this subject up at the next debate? n/t

[polpilot]

20. Does killing predispose one to more killing. Do participants in wars

tend to vote for war.

Dean '04...

[mikehiggins]

52. Abso-positively-lutely NOT!

Ask Dick Gephardt about how successful stuff like that is?

For that matter, ask Dr. Dean.

How negative should we go with each other? Not very.

Anyway, just watch what the RNC and the mediawhores throw at Kerry before Tuesday. They're going to make us look like amatuers.

[anti-bush]

6. Not important

The man received a bronze star, a silver star, and three purple hearts. There is no questioning his war record.

[dreissig]

10. No Question?

There is no questioning his war record.

Actually that's exactly what I'm doing. The DD214 isn't all that secret a document - it's used for all kinds of purposes. Some of it can be obtained just by filing a FOIA request, but I don't know how much.

[emulatorloo]

25. Um, bronze star, silver star, three purple hearts *IS* his war record

EOM

[dreissig]

29. So Is His Time in Country

The point is whether Kerry paid his dues or did he just collect a bunch of medals and bug out. The fact that an officer petitioned for an early return from combat is subject to a number of interpretations.

Kerry spent only three (possibly four) months in Vietnam, and was subsequently reassigned to a plum job as an admiral's aide in Brooklyn. Was he some kind of fair-haired boy? It's a reasonable question.

[bearfartinthewoods]

76. and then petitioned for an early out from thje navy

i'd like to know how early?

[sangha]

124. "The point is whether Kerry paid his dues "

And the answer is "Yes. He was wounded three times"

did he just collect a bunch of medals and bug out.

You don't just collect medals; You earn them.

[dreissig]

156. Collecting Medals

You don't just collect medals; You earn them.

That's not as clear to me as it is to you. But that's not the topic of the discussion, which was that Kerry should release his DD214 so we can know how much time he spent in country.

[chocolateeater]

26. So the military hands out their medals

like prizes in a Cracker Jack box? Do you have a link to why Kerry's term of service should be questioned? More information would be nice.

[dreissig]

30. The Military Does Not

The military does not hand out awards like Cracker Jack prizes, nor does it easily grant reassignments out of combat after only three (possibly four) months. I'm trying to find out what were Kerry's actual dates of service in Vietnam. Depending on which Internet source you use, the answer is either three months or four months. If Kerry were to release his DD214 (which is not a very private document), then the question would be definitively answered.

[sangha]

128. You're contradincting yourself

In post #29 you asked:

The point is whether Kerry paid his dues or did he just collect a bunch of medals and bug out.

Now it's:

The military does not hand out awards like Cracker Jack prizes

I'm trying to find out what were Kerry's actual dates of service in Vietnam.

Then file an FOIA request for it.

If Kerry were to release his DD214 (which is not a very private document), then the question would be definitively answered

What question? You have already figured out how long Kerry was in VN. What are you trying to prove?

[dreissig]

158. No Change in My Position

I replied to Mflorence who claimed that I accused the military of handing out awards like Cracker Jacks prizes. I do not believe that; and I wanted to make sure that he or she understood that.

However, Cracker Jack medals or not, the merits of Kerry's extraordinarily short tour remain an open question. There's no necessary connection between saying "Kerry's awards were non-trivial" and "Kerry deserved to go home early."

Web links are often unhelpful. Even some well-researched books like Gerald Nicasio's "Home to War" contain factual errors. Nicasio says, for example, that Kerry was severely wounded. In fact, Kerry's most serious wound made him unfit for duty for only two days. The other two wounds did not make him unfit for duty at all.

One of the other remaining open questions is how the Navy regards Kerry's tour aboard the blue-water ship U.S.S. Gridley - was it Pacific duty or Vietnam duty? The DD214 would supply the answer. I may indeed file a FOIA request for the information but I'd certainly hope the Senator would provide it voluntarily.

[sandnsea]

7. Nobody cares

I've never even seen right wing freepers care. The only place I've ever seen this be an issue is right here on this board.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

27. The Freepers Know

that to challenge Kerry's Vietnam War record (as opposed to his postwar activism and subsequent Senate record) and invite a comparison between Kerry's and Bush's National Guard nonservice would be crazy, a nonstarter. Even the worst apologists for Bush recognize that his service record doesn't particularly make him look great and that Kerry's actual wartime service is, essentially unimpeachable. I'm sure Wes Clark would be happy to compare scars with Kerry, but Bush would not.

The best overall work I could find on the subject of Kerry's Vietnam service is at the link below, from a Boston Globe story:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

I've read several of the Freeper threads on this subject. They like to censor links like these out of them.

[dreissig]

31. Freepers are Wierd

Freepers don't welcome questions about Kerry's military record because they don't want to deal with the implications of such questions. Freepers believe that the blood of the military makes battle sites holy and sanctifies war itself. I don't believe that, but they do.

Don't ask Freepers to consider whether the sons of the upper classes have options the rest of us don't. Many Democrats don't want to think about that either.

[bigtree]

90. From the Globe article

"To his crew, Kerry was one of the most daring skippers in the US Navy, relentlessly and courageously engaging the enemy. But the battles and moral dilemmas were in shades of gray, and Kerry to this day wrestles with the scenes of death he commanded.

In an intense three months of combat following that Christmas Eve battle, Kerry often would go beyond his Navy orders and beach his boat, in one case chasing and killing a teenage Viet Cong enemy who wore only a loin cloth and carried a rocket launcher. Kerry's aggressiveness in combat caused a commanding officer to wonder whether he should be given a medal or court-martialed.

Kerry would watch in despair as a crewmate killed a boy who may or may not have been an innocent civilian. He would angrily challenge a military policy that risked the death of noncombatants. And he would try to escape the fate of five of his closest friends, all killed in combat.

Along with Kerry's unquestionable and repeated bravery, he also took an action that has received far less notice: He requested and was granted a transfer out of Vietnam six months before his combat tour was slated to end on the grounds that he had earned three Purple Hearts. None of his wounds was disabling; he said one cost him two days of service and the other two did not lead to any absence."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[blm]

8. YES. Dean should demand it at the next debate.

.

[polpilot]

17. Yes. 'First Mr. Kerry you don't avoid the Vietnam War and now VOTE

for the deaths of young men & women via the Iraqi Sheperd Bombing.' Bring it up.

Dean '04...

[anti-bush]

37. Um... Dean is asking for trouble

if he brings up Kerry's Viet Nam record, when all he was doing was skiing in Colorado. That would be a poor tactic.

[dreissig]

42. Questions About Kerry

When it gets out that Kerry spent only three (possibly four) months in country, what effect do you think that will have on veterans who slogged through a whole year of Vietnam? Kerry is said to have an energizing effect on veterans. My question is whether that effect is necessarily positive. It's yet another of these Questions About Kerry that Democrats ought to consider.

[anti-bush]

44. Well...

I'm admittedly no expert, but wasn't there some provision about being sent home after receiving a purple heart?

[dreissig]

47. Navy Policy

The policy in the Navy at the time was that if you got three separate Purple Hearts, you could petition for an early rotation back to the States, whether your tour was up or not. The key word here is "petition" - it was not automatic.

There are a number of questions about the propriety of doing what Kerry did. He was, after all, an officer. He didn't have to be there in the first place. He could have served out his remaining time on board the Gridley, gone home and went about his business.

Kerry volunteered for swift boat duty but - to all appearances - found it too dangerous. I don't judge him harshly for that. The way I see it, it's between him and his conscience.

[sangha]

131. You're contradicting yourself, again!

In other posts above, you've said the issue was how long Kerry was actually in VN. You even called for the release of his release papers in the subject line.

Now, it's the propriety of what Kerry did, which the release papers have nothing to do with, and there's nothing inappropriate in bravery under fire, or getting out after three injuries and the deaths of your freinds in a war that was unwinnable.

If you won't even stick by your own arguments, why should anyone else?

[dreissig]

159. Again No Contradiction

Sounds like you are making an argument that Kerry was self-evidently justified in petitioning for an early return from Vietnam. You say that because Kerry was wounded three times, lost friends, and didn't believe in the war anyhow, he therefore has the right to avoid serving the remainder of the tour that he volunteered for.

I don't think that this argument is as persuasive as you seem to think it is. While you can make a good case for this viewpoint, it's certainly not as self-evident to me as it is to you.

For purposes of objective discussion we should start with the facts as they appear on Kerry's separation papers. Just how long was Kerry in Vietnam? Let's see the DD214.

[mikehiggins]

54. No he should not. Absolutely not. No way. Nope, Nein. No.

See post 52

[DrFunkenstein]

9. "Days of Hell"

(Kerry) joined a five-man crew on swift boat No. 94 on a series of missions in which he won the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and two of his three Purple Hearts. Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta.

The most intense action came during an extraordinary eight days of more than 10 firefights, remembered by Kerry's crew as the "days of hell."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[dreissig]

14. How Many Days of Hell

The question is how many days of hell there were. The source you've given says there were 48. What does this number represent?

[sandnsea]

Have you been in one??

Day of Hell. Just curious.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

56. Even an hour of Hell can be enough

and after all it only takes a second to die. How people can want to QUALIFY and impugn proven bravery is beyond me. But, as our man says...
Bring it on.

[dreissig]

64. Proven Bravery

That's what's at issue. The guy cut his tour short.

[sangha]

135. Are you saying Kerry is a coward?

If so, show us what you got. So far, all you have is innuendo and speculation, and the facts that are available show that Kerry served heroically

[dreissig]

162. Kerry's Short Tour

After volunteering for duty as a swift boat captain, John Kerry served only three (possibly four) months in that capacity before petitioning a reassignment back to the U.S. I don't actually know what motivated his change of heart, but Kerry seems to have jumped at the chance to get out of Vietnam. I'd like to see his DD214 to know the actual dates.

[Monte Carlo]

18. Is this really important?

Isn't enough that he spent time facing combat up close for our country for 48 days at least? Would it make you feel better if he had lost an arm or his lower half in that time?

[dreissig]

33. 48 Days in Combat

Kerry signed up for a tour of duty as a swift boat skipper, then left the country at his own request after completing less than half of that tour. While many Americans think Kerry completed two whole tours in Vietnam, the reality is significantly less than that.

Petitioning an early return from Vietnam is subject to a variety of interpretations, don't you agree? However, it is a fact that a healthy, able-bodied John Kerry boarded plane back to the U.S. only three (or possibly four) months after he arrived in country.

[kurtyboy]

62. Shucks, just answer the question dreissig

Have you been in the SHIT? Have you worn the uniform? Chances are that if you've done either, you wouldn't question a man who won the decorations Kerry did.

Imagine if he were applying for a job as janitor--would you ask this?

Imagine if he were applying for a job as fry-cook--would you ask this?

Imagine if he were marrying your sister--would you ask this?

Imagine if he were applying for VA benefits--would you ask this?

Give the man the honor he deserve for his service. If you want to hit him on something, pick something else--please--this is sad.

[dreissig]

65. It's Not About Me

I don't quote the rules, but I'm not the subject of any of this discussion. Please stay on topic.

[sangha]

136. "Stay on topic"??? What's the topic?

It started out with a question about exactly how long Kerry spent in VN, but now it's about Kerry request to get out of VN.

On that 2nd point, you've got nothing. We haven't seen you post any info that suggests anything unusual, never mind immoral

[dreissig]

160. Unusual Or Immoral

Kerry's request to be transferred back to the U.S. after only three (possibly four) months was indeed unusual, and it was noted as such by the commanding officer who approved it.

I don't know that the word immoral is correct here. The question is more about military ethics. Kerry volunteered for a combat tour, and then requested reassignment at the first opportunity. Reasonable people can disagree about the ethics of that behavior.

I'd prefer to have the facts. Just how long was Kerry in country anyhow? The DD214 has the answer.

[polpilot]

19. Pro-war v. anti-War v. Avoidable War. Let's discuss who our reps need

to be. Does Kerry's killing color his view of war. Did he vote for IWR because of his 'hero status.' Let's go.

Dean '04..Ski

[bigtree]

92. Another question

When you drag down John Kerry does it elevate your candidate?

Is this the example of how you believe your candidate should conduct himself? Should he reopen the question of John's service in order to get elected?

[sangha]

133. LOL! How many "Days of Hell" is enough for you?

.

[ModerateMiddle]

170. I'm willing to wager

that it represents 48 days more than you experienced.

[dreissig]

197. I'll Let You Know

I'll let you know when I run for president.

[RobinA]

12. The Only Speculation

on this topic I see is coming from you. Kerry was in Vietnam far longer than the vast majority of voters. Kerry was under enemy fire far longer than the vast majority of voters. No President to date has been at war in Vietnam. People are not going to vote based on how long a candidate was in Vietnam.

[dreissig]

34. Kerry Was in Viet Nam

Kerry was in Viet Nam a far shorter time than the overwhelming majority of able-bodied soldiers there. He left, at his own request, after only three (possibly four) months. Some people may think it's no big deal, but some other people might think it is. Obviously, we know where you stand.

[sangha]

137. Kerry wasn't a soldier. He was a sailor

Yeeesh!

Do you know how long the avg Navy officer spent in VN? If not, how can you compare Kerry's service to others?

Do you know how many sailors received three Purple Hearts? Do you know how many of them petitioned to get out of VN amd how many were accepted and how many were rejected?

If you want to answer your questions, look there. All you're doing here is spreading innuendo and speculation.

[dreissig]

168. Innuendo and Speculation

You're calling this "innuendo and speculation" but Kerry's petition for an early return from Vietnam has deeper resonances than you are taking into account. The bond among soldiers is very important. You are overlooking the betrayal aspect of Kerry's departure back to the real world, leaving his crewmen in the lurch.

[BeatleBoot]

13. I went out to the garage and got my shovel...

the shit's getting way too deep in here!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. Dean should give us the ski itinerary he kept while his back problems

disqualified him from serving when others got drafted.

[chocolateeater]

28. How is that relevant?

It only makes a silly thread sillier.

[dreissig]

45. Military Honor is Not Silly

Military honor is not silly. In the final analysis, it's really what soldiers fight for.

[sangha]

139. Did Kerry do anything dishonorable? Yes or No

and show us some facts.

[dreissig]

171. The Facts are Not In Dispute

Look at this discussion, we've got a Navy drama going, something like The Caine Mutiny. Yeah, Queeg cut his own tow line!

Kerry petitioned for an early return after he got the requisite number of Purple Hearts. He landed on Go and collected his $500. Is that all there is to it?

I don't think so. I think Kerry's short tour makes him an ambiguous hero.

[TLM]

109. Dean is not trying to run on his military service record....

Kerry is.

Kerry is the one claiming he did two tours... when he did not even do ONE FULL TOUR.


Now I have no problem with someone doing anything they could to get out of nam... what I have a problem with is the way Kerry has always tried to play both sides.

He brags about and runs on his 2 tours of service and plays the war hero card... but the facts tell a different story about his service and his purple hearts.

Just like Kerry used vets to jump start his political career by LYING about throwing his metals over the white house fence... then years later we find out that was a ploy and his metals are proudly displayed on his office wall to help bolster his war hero image when that became more politically advantageous than the anti-war protester image.

[sangha]

143. "Dean is not trying to run on his military service record"??!!!!

Dean has a military record?

[maddezmom]

16. release to who? who is speculating?

bush*, rove, or the RNC? LOL

[PsN2Wind]

21. Hows about you

post your DD214, we'll take a squint at it and decide if you spent enough time "in the shit" to demand a look at his.

[dreissig]

36. When I Run for President

When I run for president, I'll release my DD214, my 1040, and copies of some drunken poetry I wrote back in the mid-80's. I'll even supply the names of ex-girlfriends, at least the ones who admit remembering me.

[Torgo4]

32. Go Ahead And REquest his DD 214

From the National Personnel Records Center in St Louis.

I'm sure they'll redact the Privacy Data: DOB, SSN.

Although, three Purple Hearts might indicate he was not completely healthy when he left theater.

[dreissig]

35. Quite Healthy

Kerry's three Purple Hearts came from shrapnel wounds, the worst of which disabled him for two days. The other two did not disable him at all. A healthy, able-bodied John Kerry boarded the plane back to the U.S. after only three (possibly four) months after he arrived in country.

[pinkpops]

38. To get three purple hearts you have to be wounded

in three separate incidents, correct?

[dreissig]

40. Three Incidents

That's right, you get only one Purple Heart regardless of how many wounds you get in a single incident. Kerry's commanding officer acknowledged that it is unusual for one individual to get three Purple Hearts.

A healthy, able-bodied John Kerry boarded the plane back to the U.S. only three (possibly four) months after arriving in country.

[pinkpops]

41. so he would have been wounded once,

patched up, gone back to work
wounded again, patched up, gone back to work
wounded again
went home, all in 3-4 months

Possible, I guess - what has he said about it?
scuse my ignorance.

[dreissig]

43. He Was Hit With Shrapnel

Kerry was hit with flying debris on three separate occasions. The worst of his wounds disabled him for two days. The other two were not disabling at all. AFAIK, Kerry doesn't like to talk about his wounds.

[MaineDem]

114. He talks about them as much as anyone would

He says they were minor. he never said they were serious. But shrapnel wounds are not insignificant.

But you're going to beat this dead horse for as long as you can and no one will be able to stop you.

It's what John Kerry can expect.

[sangha]

140. My good freind is now dying

from a WWII injury that didn't take him out of service at the time.

[dreissig]

157. Kerry's Non-Serious Wounds

Kerry's wounds were serious enough for him to use them to cut his tour down to a third of a normal tour. What else but the seriousness of the wounds would be the intent of a policy permitting soldiers who were wounded three times to petition a reassignment?

Soldiers do not accumulate points to win prizes. The worst of Kerry's wounds made him unfit for duty only two days. The other two did not make him unfit at all.

A healthy, able-bodied John Kerry boarded the plane back to the U.S. only three (possibly four) months after he arrived in country. What explains such a short tour? Kerry had been quite gung ho earlier; what made him change his mind?

[MaineDem]

178. "Soldiers do not accumulate points to win prizes"

However, those points have been pretty important in war.

Read some on WWII and "points", for example.

Listen, I'm pretty sure this horse died a long time ago.

[MoonRiver]

46. This is new to me.

What speculation are we talking about here?

[dreissig]

48. Speculation

If we saw John Kerry's DD214, we would know whether he served three months in country, or four months. I've seen references to both.

[PsN2Wind]

55. Unless you are a Clark supporter

we can assume that Kerry spent a helluva lot longer in Viet Nam than the candidate you support, so what's the difference?

[dreissig]

66. The Difference

What makes this issue important is the nature of the office sought. Why did Kerry cut his tour short?

[sangha]

141. Intellectually dishonest

You're using the excuse of "We need to know how long he served" as cover for "Why did Kerry cut his tour short?"

No one has questioned that Kerry cut his tour short, so why the call for him to release his discharge papers?

If you think Kerry did something wrong, say what it is, and then explain how his discharge papers will clear that question up

[dreissig]

172. Kerry's Tours

The documentation around Kerry's Vietnam service is full of factual errors, most of it in his favor. How does this happen? For example, Gerald Nicosia's "Home To War" is meticulously researched but contains a glaring error to the effect that Kerry was severely wounded. He was not.

The same book contains Kerry's own statement that he did not throw his medals back, he threw back his ribbons. It's a nonsense statement because medals and ribbons are essentially the same, and Kerry would know that. Throwing back ribbons is no different from throwing back medals.

I'm questioning the fog of untruth around John Kerry. We're told about Kerry's "two tours" as though he spent 24 months overseas. It turns out Kerry spent only about three (possibly four) months in Vietnam, and five months off the coast aboard a blue-water ship.

A similar fog of untruth surrounds Kerry's recent voting record. He was so opposed to IWR that he voted for it. What nonsense. Has this man been a phony all his life?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

57. What does it matter

if it was 3 months or 4. Since the tone of your posts seems to be to run down Kerry's courage for requesting the transfer out, let's take a "worst case scenario" and say it was 3. What of it? Presumably Wes Clark was the only one "in country" for longer. Other candidates either were not in the military at all, or were never "in country." The only candidate who would come out ahead of Kerry in this scar/tattoo comparison would be Clark. Even with all their arrogance I doubt if the Bushistas want to sit down at the bar and compare scars between their boy and Clark or Kerry. You wouldn't presume to make an unfavorable comparison between Kerry and any candidate who never even served, on the basis that his Vietnam service was somehow inadequate, would you? Because that would be rather laughable, I think...

15 year Navy vet
ZERO days "in the shit"

[dreissig]

192. Comparing Scars

The Republicans won't compare scars between Kerry and Bush, they won't have to. They have plenty of material to exploit in Kerry's involvement with VVAW, an organization funded by Jane Fonda.
(Source: Gerald Nicosia's "Home To War" which has cover blurbs written by Howard Zinn, Oliver Stone and David Hackworth)

IMO, the Jane Fonda connection may explain why Kerry bends over backwards to avoid the appearance of being weak on defense. Did Kerry vote for IWR because he didn't want to appear French?

Edit: typo

[mikehiggins]

50. Is that like flying airplanes in Texas? And stopping when they

started drug testing?

Just curious.

You can be absolutely certain that ANY discrepancy in Kerry's records would be common knowledge anywhere in the United States.

Remember, he started VVAW when Nixon was in the White House. Dick might not have been as evil as BushCo but he was no walk in the park either. If there was something bogus about Kerry's war records you can be sure the White House would have trumpeted it from the rooftops while trying to take back his medals.

This dog won't hunt.

[dreissig]

75. Kerry and VVAW

VVAW had been in existence for several years before John Kerry got out of the Navy. Kerry was a speaker at the Valley Forge terminus of VVAW's successful Operation RAW, a protest march and guerrilla theater action in late Summer 1970. He had not been part of the group before then, and does not appear to have been involved in any of the staging and organization of this important event.
http://www.oz.net/~vvawai/sw/sw31/pgs_35-44/operation_raw.html

I cannot explain why most of the inaccuracies I've found reported about Kerry's history are in his favor. Gerald Nicosia's "Home To War" makes the claim that Kerry was "severely" wounded in Vietnam. The book is meticulously researched, and Kerry himself wrote a blurb for the jacket. http://www.geraldnicosia.com/html/geraldframeset2.html?htow/gnhometowarreviews.html~content

Kerry's "tours" in Vietnam turn out to be something quite less than a full year, the amount of time normally understood as a tour. His first "tour" - if you can call it that - consisted of five months aboard a a blue-water ship far off the coast. His second "tour" lasted only three (possibly four) months. A healthy, able-bodied John Kerry boarded the plane back to the U.S., where he would subsequently become involved with the already well-established VVAW.

[mikehiggins]

81. Thanks for the info: I thought Kerry was a founder of VVAW

not a latecomer.

Anyone know how many field officers belonged to VVAW? I was under the impression, from the guys I know, that it was largely a grunt organization with very few ranking officers.

If that's true then Kerry must have stood out like a tall, sore thumb.

[dreissig]

87. The Jane Fonda Connection

I'm wading through Gerald Nicosia's book "Home From War" which is going into the Jane Fonda / Mark Lane connection to the VVAW. Now those are two people you won't hear Kerry talk about.

FWIW . . . I don't think I ever heard about VVAW. I was seriously apolitical after 1968. A lot of us were. Operation RAW did not impact me at all, but I did hear about the Winter Soldier investigation.

If Kerry gets the nomination, the Left will be shut out again. This is a 1968-style mistake that will lead to civil unrest. Cops bashing skulls on national television, that kind of thing.

[bigtree]

94. I don't believe you know a thing about the left.

"If Kerry gets the nomination, the Left will be shut out again. This is a 1968-style mistake that will lead to civil unrest. Cops bashing skulls on national television, that kind of thing."

This is a laughable contradiction to you previous posts. Such concern for the left. Most of the left would be appaled by your assault on John Kerry's service in Nixon's bloody war. They would be further revolted by your furtherance of Nixon's assault on his character.

[dreissig]

163. The Left is a Mystery

The Left is pretty much a mystery these days. The Democrats don't seem to be worried about what may happen if Kerry is the nominee. This situation reminds me of 1968, when Democrats assumed the Left was locked in. As defeat loomed, Humphrey tried to cozy up to the Left but it was too late. The Left, it turned out, was not locked in and Humphrey lost the election.

[IndianaGreen]

106. Kerry's public personna is the "Phoney Deal"

The real Kerry is not the carefully cultivated one that people sees on TV.

[dreissig]

176. Shell Game Artist

He's the guy on Manhattan streets who suckers the tourists into no-win "guessing" games. Kerry admits nothing, and he'll look you right in the face and tell you up is down and white is black.

There's no reason to vote for this guy. Don't trust him? Dump him.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. Your post is disingenuous flamebait.

Super Tuesday here we come!

[dreissig]

67. Disingenuous Flamebait

I don't agree that this is flamebait. I'm raising some legitimate questions about John Kerry's war record. He cut his tour short, and I want to know why.

[sangha]

144. Honestly

If you want to know why Kerry cut his toru short, then why didn't you ask that in the first post?

How long Kerry actually spent in VN, and his DD214 has nothing to do with the question you're now asking. Why did ask for the release of his DD214 when it doesn't answer the question you're really came here to spread?

[dreissig]

198. Request for Production of Documents

It's unfortunate that requesting a document does indeed have the unintended connotation that we're not being told the whole truth. But that concern has to be set aside in the case of questions for which a variety of answers compete for pre-eminence. We need definitive facts from an authoritative source.

My concerns aren't limited to the dates of service, although those are important. I'd like access to the witness statements that supported Kerry's Silver Star - they are part of the official record, and there's no reason to withhold them.

I'd also like to find out definitively whether the Navy considered Kerry's service aboard the Gridley to be combat duty. It doesn't sound like it should be, but some say it was. The question is certainly answerable.

John Kerry is running for president. Questions about him should be on the record. We shouldn't have to dig to find out the number of months for which he received combat pay. Why this talk about FOIA? The information ought to be publicly available!

[Zomby Woof]

53. If I met Kerry

I would thank him for his honorable service in that unjust and gawdfersaken war. He is a veteran, and he gets my respect and thanks.

When Gore was running against Bush, I would get freeper email second-guessing Gore's service as merely a "journalist" in Vietnam, yet trumpeting Bush's "leadership" in the TANG!!!

So second-guessing Kerry's service is a blow even lower than endless botox threads and Skull & Bones bullshit.

[dreissig]

68. Second Guessing

I'm not second-guessing. I'm raising a legitimate question about why he cut his tour short.

[sangha]

145. Then why ask for the DD214?

The DD214 won't tell you WHY he cut his tour short. It will just tell you that it WAS cut short.

[dreissig]

174. Dealing With Kerry

When you deal with a snake like Kerry you have to have all the facts in front of you. Talking to him about the IWR he'll have you convinced he voted against it.

How much time did Kerry spend in combat? Some people think he served two tours, but he didn't. The word tour in this connection means twelve months, and if he claims two of them, he's claiming 24 months.

With the DD214 you have the exact figure. You don't have to hear Kerry's bullshit as he tells you all kinds of stuff that isn't true either now or in the forseeable future.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dreissig]

69. Sick Allegation

You'll have to tell me what is being alleged and why it is sick. Kerry cut his tour short. Why did he do that? It's a legitimate question.

[bornskeptic]

73. So if it's that important to you, read the book.

Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
Popular historian Brinkley's account of John Kerry's Vietnam experience could easily serve as the first part of a multivolume biography, examining the senator and presidential candidate's early life in rigorous detail. Entering the U.S. Navy soon after graduating from Yale in 1966, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry commanded two Swift boat crews on river patrols in Vietnam, earning a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts. He kept "voluminous" notes during his service, maintained extensive correspondence with friends and family, and tape-recorded interviews with combat-seasoned comrades. With unrestricted access to this archival material and interviews with Kerry and surviving crewmates, Brinkley (coauthor with Stephen Ambrose of The Mississippi and the Making of a Nation) depicts war in riveting detail, down to what music the crew of PCF-94 listened to on patrol.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060565233/102-1049597-1164946?v=glance

[dreissig]

78. Chronology

The review you quote says that Kerry's first tour in Vietnam amounted only to five months in the Pacific and a "brief stop" off the coast of that country. This "brief stop" has been put forward as a complete tour in country in the frequently repeated statement: John Kerry served two tours in Vietnam.

In that same review, Kerry's more important second tour is given as beginning in December 1968. Elsewhere we learn that Kerry left Vietnam in early April 1969, for a total time in country of four months and an indeterminate "brief stop" aboard the Gridley.

Kerry's DD214 would answer questions about the length of time he actually spent in Vietnam. Is the Navy crediting his time in the Pacific as time in combat?

John Kerry enlisted in the Navy in February 1966, months before he graduated from Yale. In December 1967 Ensign Kerry was assigned to the frigate U.S.S. Gridley; after five months of service in the Pacific, with a brief stop in Vietnam, he returned to the United States and underwent training to command a Swift boat, a small craft deployed in Vietnam's rivers. In June 1968 Kerry was promoted to lieutenant (junior grade), and by the end of that year he was back in Vietnam, where he commanded, over time, two Swift boats. Throughout Tour of Duty Brinkley deftly deals with such explosive issues as U.S. atrocities in Vietnam and the bombing of Cambodia. In a series of unforgettable combat-action sequences, he recounts how Kerry won the Purple Heart three times for wounds suffered in action and was awarded the Bronze Star and the Navy’s Silver Star for gallantry in action.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060565233/104-2939142-5613539?v=glance

[sangha]

146. Disingenous

You keep asking *WHY* Kerry cut his tour short. Since his DD214 won't answer that question, why ask about his length of service?

You just want to make it appear as if there are a lot of unanswered questions. You really have only one question, and you have no info that suggests anything untoward happened

[dreissig]

175. Unanswered Questions

Besides questions about the length of time Kerry spent in Vietnam, there are additional unanswered questions about his actions and motivations. Asking for his DD214 is one way around the blizzard of nonsense talk that is Kerry's stock in trade. He voted for giving Bush carte blanche in Iraq, but he makes it sound like he voted against it.

With Kerry, just learning the facts is a significant accomplishment. Once you've achieved that, you're ready to move onto interpretation. This guy is mendacious.

[Bunny]

151. The father of my kids did a tour in Nam.

'69-70, a Marine in 1st Recon,Bravo Company. Got a Purple Heart. Did his year, got the hell out. I asked him about Kerry, he said that anybody that could get a ticket out of that hellhole was okay with him. He also said that it really didn't matter a whole lot how it came about - anyone with 3 Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star, and a Silver Star would have automatically been shipped out - no special request required, and it wouldn't have mattered how long he had been "in country". A tour was generally considered to be 13 months, but lots of things can interfere with completion of a full tour. If Kerry is saying he did two tours, he may be technically incorrect, but from a decorated Nam vet, this is meaningless bullshite.

So, to review, from a decorated Nam vet: nobody gives a shit how long Kerry was actually there!!! Nobody gives a shit how long he says he was there. If his medals are valid (and you've given no proof that they aren't), then his service history is honorable and completely legitimate.

No one but YOU cares about this. Get over yourself.

[dreissig]

194. Kerry's Record

If Kerry's record turns out to be less than his followers represent it to be, it's a big deal. People think Kerry served two tours in Vietnam, but he didn't. Kerry served at most 4 months in country, not 26.

Kerry's record after the war will certainly be a factor in the election. What was John Kerry's VVAW-related connection to Jane Fonda? It clearly was non-trivial, and substantial effort has already gone into damage control.

Don't expect the Republicans to be lead-footed about this - these guys know how to sell an issue. Get ready for questions about John Kerry's not-entirely-plausible war record.

[bigtree]

61. Nixon Knows

[dreissig]

70. Nixon's Tour

I don't know a lot about Nixon's record in the Navy. If there were questions about it, they would have been raised. There's no reason to consider such questions off limits.

[bigtree]

111. just like Nixon did

"This fellow Kerry that they had on last week," Colson tells the president, referring to a television appearance by John F. Kerry, a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

"Yeah," Nixon responds.

"He turns out to be really quite a phony," Colson says.

"Well, he is sort of a phony, isn't he?" Nixon says.

Yes, Colson says in a gossiping vein, telling the president that Kerry stayed at the home of a Georgetown socialite while other protesters slept on the mall.

"He was in Vietnam a total of four months," Colson scoffs, without mentioning that Kerry earned three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star, and a Bronze Star, and had also been on an earlier tour. "He's politically ambitious and just looking for an issue."

"Yeah."

"He came back a hawk and became a dove when he saw the political opportunities," Colson says.

"Sure," Nixon responds. "Well, anyway, keep the faith."


Keep the faith.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

71. Would you care to say which candidate you're supporting,

dreissig?

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dreissig]

77. Vetting the Candidate

I've been asking questions about a Navy officer who, five months into his tour aboard ship, requests reassignment for training in another specialty. Then, after only three (possibly four) months, he loses interest in continuing on in the new specialty, and requests reassignment a second time.

What motivates that second request for reassignment? Kerry's military service is a worthy area for investigation and that he should candidly answer questions about it. I acknowledge that I have not seen Kerry's DD214.

[sangha]

147. Three Purple Hearts

What motivates that second request for reassignment?

[DJcairo]

79. Oh Please, he's a frickin' hero

This line of attack is pathetic.

[dreissig]

82. Legitimate Questions

Questions about Kerry's "tours" of duty in Vietnam are 100% legitimate. If he left Vietnam only three (possibly four) months into a re-assignment that he himself initiated, it's important to know why he did that. Additionally, Senator Kerry presents his military experience as an important part of his qualifications to become our next Commander in Chief.

I won't speculate here what Kerry's motivations may be, but they are relevant in determining his fitness for relieving George Bush as a wartime president. If he was so anxious to command a swift boat, why did he bug out at the earliest opportunity? The voters have a right to know.

[JVS]

183. Is he, or is he just trying to convince the public that he is?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

80. Why is there not one credible link it this thread to support your

accusations?

[dreissig]

83. Credible Links

Several credible links have been presented on this thread, documenting Senator Kerry's two tours in and around Vietnam. Kerry's first tour - on a blue-water ship far from the land - ended after only five months at Kerry's own request. The second tour began in December 1968 and ended in March 1969, again at Kerry's own request.

The chronology of Kerry's service is detailed in his DD214, a document which is already somewhat public in nature. Kerry's official separation papers would show whether his time aboard the Gridley is considered service in the Pacific or service in Vietnam.

I've located sources on the Internet that indicate that Kerry served only three (possibly) four months as a swift boat captain. The shortness of this tour has some bearing on questions about the military experience which Senator Kerry cites as important to his qualifications to be president. However, since he was there only four months, at maximum, he might have a different perspective from someone who served say, a full tour. These facts are important to Democratic voters choosing a candidate in the upcoming primary.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

84. There is nothing indicating he served only four months

That is unfounded speculation on your part and the ONLY link you'd be able to find would be one from a right wing site making this claim.

[dreissig]

86. Right Wing Site

The chronology of Kerry's time in Vietnam does not come from right wing sources. One source is the recently published book "Tour of Duty" by Douglas Brinkley, which states:

In December 1967 Ensign Kerry was assigned to the frigate U.S.S. Gridley; after five months of service in the Pacific, with a brief stop in Vietnam, he returned to the United States and underwent training to command a Swift boat, a small craft deployed in Vietnam's rivers. In June 1968 Kerry was promoted to lieutenant (junior grade), and by the end of that year he was back in Vietnam, where he commanded, over time, two Swift boats.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060565233/104-2939142-5613539?v=glance

A second source is the Boston Globe:

John Kerry returned from Vietnam in April 1969, having won early transfer out of the conflict because of his three Purple Hearts. He asked for a cushy assignment - service as an admiral's aide - and was given precisely that job in Brooklyn.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml

I acknowlege having difficulty locating the precise dates, but if these sources are correct Kerry's maximum time in country was not longer than from December 1968 through April 1969.

[bigtree]

89. You are hounding him just like Nixon did

from dreissig's Globe link:

The White House feared him like no other protester.

Colson, in a secret memo, revealed he had a mission to target Kerry: "Destroy the young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader."

The effort by Nixon and his aides to undermine Kerry went much deeper than even Kerry realized. Yet it is this chapter in his life, as much as any other, that helped turn Kerry into a national political figure. By targeting Kerry, the Nixon White House boosted his stature in ways that still are having an impact.


This is a mostly informative article. However as in all articles I would not take innuendo and unsupported allegations at face value. Most know these when they see them. There is a character who gives his assessment of John Kerry and it was noted that bitterness remains between them:


The White House found a better way to go after Kerry. Colson had seen a press conference featuring a young Navy veteran named John O'Neill, who served in the same swift boat division as Kerry shortly after Kerry left Vietnam. O'Neill, like many swift boat veterans, was outraged at Kerry's claim of US atrocities.

In short order, O'Neill became the centerpiece of the Nixon White House strategy to undermine Kerry. O'Neill, now a Texas lawyer, stresses that he did not receive any payment from the White House and was acting on his own because he thought Kerry's statements were unconscionable lies.



Not much of an objective source. I would encourage others to please read the entire article. I find myself more in admiration of John every time I discover another republican hack sent by Nixon in an attempt to destroy John's reputation because of his protest of that bloody war.

Is that what you are doing here dreissig? Are you attacking John for his protest? His service? His testimony? I am not clear why you are continuing this, but it is repulsive to watch you carry on where Nixon left off.

I don't know of many Democrats who would sully John for his service and his dissent. I don't know many Democrats who would take anything Nixon said or did and further it.


BTW, the remark about the 'cushy job' is an unsubstantiated swipe by the author of this article. You have made the insinuations and you have produced nothing but hearsay and innuendo. I won't do the work for you of tearing this good man down. This is not the arena for that. This is a Democratic board which, in my view should support Democrats against republican assaults.

Spreading rumor and innuendo about John Kerry's service is of importance to this White House's plan to undermine his credibility. I won't take part in that. I won't further their lies and distortions and I find it despicable that some would use Nixon's war against the protesters to batter John, years after the crumb was dead and buried.

[dreissig]

96. Hounding Kerry? I Just Want To See His DD214

Quite candidly, it was disappointing to find out that Kerry spent only three (possibly four) months in Vietnam. For most soldiers, war is intense, unpleasant and prolonged. Kerry seems to have bugged out the first chance he got.

In exploiting a loophole to get an early return back to the states, Kerry showed himself to be the sort of opportunist you find in any war. I am dismayed to find that the defense of Kerry's actions takes the form of an attack on me for asking questions.

After I find out how long Kerry was in Vietnam, I'll try finding out how many of the 58,000 Americans died after that point relative to their own tours. Most of these men would be alive today if they'd had the options that Kerry had.

[bigtree]

101. Yes hounding him

Like Nixon did.

[IndianaGreen]

103. What you call "hounding," we call vetting

I think Nixon was probably right about Kerry when he pegged him as an opportunist. Kerry's subsequent record in the Senate seems to have vindicated Nixon.

[bigtree]

112. When one uses innuendo and half-truths in a campaign

it's called smearing, not vetting.

[IndianaGreen]

127. Like when Kerry refers to his IWR vote as a vote for peace?

Interesting how Orwellian we have become...

"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the
manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words,
you can control the people who must use the words."

(Philip K.Dick)

[sangha]

148. The way I can tell it's a smear

is by the way dreissig keeps conflating two question:

1) How long was Kerry in VN?
2) Why did Kerry request a reassignment?

dreissig knows how long Kerry was in VN. dreissig has posted the answer several times. Four months. That's how I know the request for the DD214 is a ruse.

The real purpose is to spread the innuendo that Kerry requested his reassignment for some nefarious reason, as if being wounded three times and seeing freinds die was not enough of a reason.

[IndianaGreen]

150. None of Kerry's wounds were life threatening

unlike Wes Clark, who is more of a hero!

[sangha]

152. War is life threatening

Running into fire is life threatening

[JVS]

184. Which is why Kerry's support of the IRW disturbs me

War is life threatening, so much so that Senators shouldn't hand authority to a maniac.

[dreissig]

195. Bugging Out

Kerry's transfer back to the U.S. wasn't automatic, he had to request it. He left his buddies behind. Some would call that "bugging out". You may not agree, of course. Voters will give the issue whatever weight seems appropriate to them. In the meantime, we should have whatever facts bear on the issue.

[MaineDem]

153. Correct about not being life-threatening injuries BUT

I don't think anyone ever said they were.

And I don't think anyone was comparing Kerry's service and Clark's. Both men served honorably.

The original poster has an issue with Kerry's medals.

[dreissig]

190. Life Threatening Injuries

Both men served honorably

There's no question that John Kerry served honorably. However, much of Kerry's support comes from the belief that he served heroically.

Gerald Nicosia's book "Home To War" makes the claim that Kerry was "severely wounded". The book itself is generously praised by such worthies as Howard Zinn, Oliver Stone and David Hackworth.

[dreissig]

165. Seeing Friends Die

Seeing friends die is not an unusual experience in Vietnam, but most soldiers served out their normal tours anyhow. You are not putting enough weight on the betrayal aspect of petitioning for an early return to the U.S.

[IndianaGreen]

97. I also want to see Kerry's DD-214

as well as his service records, and full disclosure about his Skull & Bones connections. Kerry is running for Prez and the people have the right to know!

[bigtree]

105. Nixon had full access to his service records

But despite his campaign to smear John he was unable to find anything to disgrace him with short of innuendo.



This cult, who originated the S&B nonsense, has all of the information that Lyndon LaRouche can provide.

The authors of this smear huddle at: http://www.fleshingoutskullandbones.com /


Antony C. Sutton, editor of an excellent monthly newsletter, Phoenix Letter, stated in the October, 1996 edition:
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/newstart/bohemian-grove /

“Up to a few months ago, our knowledge of Bohemian Grove, the exclusive elitist hideaway by supposedly adult wheeler dealers, a.k.a. Washington statesman and prominent people (all male).

We dismissed the behavior as immature, even pitiful, by emotionally disturbed juveniles and not worth attention. This is where Kissinger, Ford, Nixon, Bechtel, Bush, Cheney, Hoover and their friends (2600 members) hang out and “relax.” And if they want to behave as little boys that is their privilege, it is private property.

Recent information may radically change this perception of Bohemian Grove. Not merely drunkenness, unbounded use of alcohol and drugs with vague homosexual tones (confirmed by our sources) but reported activities much more serious – kidnapping, rape, paedophilia, sodomy, ritual murder. Investigation is blocked under the 1947 National Security Act.(!) and like the Omaha child abuse case, includes illegal detention of children.

For decades, there have been vague rumors of weird goings on in Bohemian Grove in more remote parts of its 2200 acres. Reliable reports claim Druidic like rituals - druids in red hooded robes marching in procession and chanting to the Great Owl (Moloch) - a funeral pyre with “corpses”. (Scores of men work in the Bohemian Grove as servants so this party is fairly well established.)

___________________________________________________________________

CHARLOTTE ISERBYT served as Senior Policy Advisor in the Department of Education, during the first Reagan Administration, where she
blew the whistle on a major technology initiative which would control curriculums in America’s classrooms.

Iserbyt is a former school board director in Camden, Maine and was co-founder and research analyst of Guardians of Education (Organization taking a no-nonsense, Judeo Christian approach to the education of Maine's young people.)

Iserbyt is a speaker and writer, best known for her 1985 booklet Back to Basics Reform or OBE: Skinnerian International Curriculum and her 1989 pamphlet Soviets in the Classroom: America’s Latest Education Fad which covered the details of the U.S.-Soviet and Carnegie-Soviet Education Agreements

She is a freelance writer and has had articles published in Human Events, and The Washington Times.

_____________________________________________________________________

ANTON CHAITKIN is a founding member of the political movement associated with Lyndon LaRouche.

The OMEGA File
POPULATION CONTROL, NAZIS, AND THE U.N.! -- by Anton Chaitkin
ROCKFELLER AND MASS MURDER

"The ROCKEFELLER Foundation is the PRIME SPONSOR of public relations for the UNITED NATION'S drastic depopulation program, which the world is invited to accept at the UN's scheduled September conference in Cairo, Egypt. Evidence in the possession of a growing number of researchers in America, England, and Germany demonstrates that the Foundation and its CORPORATE, MEDICAL, and POLITICAL associates organized the racial MASS MURDER program of NAZI GERMANY.

____________________________________________________________________

CARL OGLESBY - During Thanksgiving weekend 1965, toward the end of one of the first major rallies against the Vietnam War, a student activist named Carl Oglesby addressed the Washington crowd. He did not simply criticize U.S. support of South Vietnam's military regime, but hailed its communist foes for mounting "as honest a revolution as you can find anywhere in history."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-03-04-freedman_x....

____________________________________________________________________

Toby Rogers wrote about how the Bush Family Wealth is Linked to the Jewish Holocaust.

_____________________________________________________________________

Webster Tarpley learned at the knee of ; has been a disciple and employee of Lyndon LaRouche for at least twenty five years.

[Southsideirish]

189. We have a right to see these records if he wants to be president. (n/t)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

110. Neither of those articles backs up your assertion.

Since your assertion is false, this thread is false and keep your Kerry propaganda out of my in box.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

88. Did you miss my question?

Just in case you did.... Would you care to say
which candidate you're supporting? It might
lend your questions/charges credibility to
say who you're backing so that your man's
service record can be compared to Kerry's
favorably or otherwise. However, I understand
if you choose not to say.

[dreissig]

91. The Best Man is a Woman

I'm disappointed that the Democratic Party hasn't even considered nominating a woman. The only woman in the race dropped out for lack of support. Instead we're hearing all this macho talk. Why is military service even a plus?

I've said in other posts that if our representative democracy fails in its most basic function - to represent the people - then there's big trouble ahead. Kerry doesn't represent me. He's had options in his life that I can't even dream about.

Like domestic tranquillity? Don't nominate Kerry.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

93. I understand then.

I wonder how many other people here
don't support anybody still running.
Are you going to vote?

Oh my gosh:
"Like domestic tranquillity? Don't nominate Kerry."
Yer not gonna riot, are ya?!? :scared:

[dreissig]

100. I'm Too Old

Personally, I'm way too old to riot. However, don't laugh off the possibility of civil unrest if voters are given no more choices than Bush or Kerry. Neither of these guys represent ordinary people, regardless of whatever identification foolish voters make with them. Bush is not The Common Man and neither is Kerry.

What happens if the economy heads into a real nosedive? Autocratic, paternalistic government won't be able to demand the sacrifices Americans will have to make to get out of it. Bush and Kerry are two guys making speeches, that's all.

Like domestic tranquillity? Put a small-d democrat in the White House.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

102. Are you too old to vote?

[dreissig]

115. A 60-Year Old Dropout?

I have not watched television since September 11th, when terrorists knocked down the World Trade Center, where the antennas were. In a little over two years, I have grown increasingly apolitical. It doesn't matter whether an old dude like me feels involved, but it matters a great deal that ordinary working people feel part of the system.

It's very risky for government to get as detached from the people as this one is. I think we're headed for trouble no matter who gets elected, but certainly if Bush gets re-elected. Kerry isn't different enough from Bush to be worth voting for, IMO.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

123. Did you feel the same about Gore & Bush? No diff?

Do you prefer any of the remaining candidates to Kerry?
I believe you said you were a medals clerk in VN?
What was your experience there?

[sangha]

149. I find it interesting the way dreissig ignores the question

Are you going to vote?

[dreissig]

161. Am I Going to Vote?

I will certainly vote in the General Election even if Kerry is the nominee. When I enter the voting booth I will follow my personal tradition and pull the lever for every Democrat running. Then I will go back to the top of the ticket and un-check Kerry's name. If he's going to be the next president it won't be because I helped.

[maddezmom]

180. so who is an acceptable candidate

for you?

[mb7588a]

98. Curing dreissig's jitters...

1. Read Brinkley's book, "Tour of Duty." All of these links you give have nothing on that absolutely complete and accurate biography of Kerry's pre-war days (his meetings with Kennedy are just awesome), his tours and subsequent anti-war life.

2. He enlisted in the Navy, he thought it the right thing to do. He volunteered to get "just shrapnel wounds" THREE TIMES.

3. He requested a different kind of training (swift boats, one of the most dangerous Navy occupations) because he was unhappy with his treatment aboard the Gridley. His main job was keeping the deck clean. It was also around this time he began to take notice of how stupid the war was.

4. He earned a ticket out of Vietnam, a war he had become discontent with. He never lost a man under his command, was wounded 3 times, got a bronze star and silver star. AND YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO QUESTIONS WHY HE WAS ONLY THERE FOR 3-4 MONTHS?!!?!

5. Compare what John Kerry did in this time to George Bush... That is the ONLY legitimate area of question in this campaign. There is no biography like this for George W. Bush.

5. John Kerry is a hero, it's a shame you can't see that.

[dreissig]

113. More Documentation Needed

1. I'd be surprised that an "absolutely complete and accurate" biography exists of anyone. Does Brinkley explain why Kerry was so gung ho for riverine duty he volunteered for it, but changed his mind after only three months? That's the crux of the issue, IMO.

2 . It's my understanding that Kerry joined the Navy after getting his draft notice. No, I don't have a link for that.

3. It doesn't surprise me that Kerry was bored as a junior officer aboard the Gridley. The Navy is a really boring place.

4. His ticket out of Vietnam wasn't earned, it was granted. There are still a lot of questions about it, among them whether it was appropriate for him to cut out early like that. Every soldier dreams of an early out safe and sound, but not many of them get it.

5. I don't compare John Kerry to George Bush because I don't want to see either one as President. In 1968, Democrats made the mistake of thinking people like me were locked in, but they were wrong. Given a choice between voting for Humphrey or Nixon, I didn't vote for either one.

6. Kerry's short tour has to be factored into any appraisal of his "heroism". I'd like to see his DD 214 to see how the Navy scored his time in country. Did his Gridley service count as Pacific duty, or Vietnam duty?

Like domestic tranquillity? Don't nominate Kerry.

[mb7588a]

177. Your one-man character assassination attempt on Kerry

is beyond honorable at this point - bordering on ridiculousness - and isn't working.

1. According to "Tour of Duty", upon arriving in Danang, "All John Kerry's eyes could focus on was the sight of a 50-foot American-made aluminam patrol craft fast (PCF), commonly called a Swift boat What it was called didn't matter to Kerry; the thing gleamed with the possibility of a different navy filled with responsibility and independence. 'Tied up to the same wharf we got off at was a small Swift boat, and I thought jealously of my own desire to have one,' Kerry admitted in a letter to his parents. 'You had to be a bit of a cowboy to want a Swift,' added Simmons. 'It meant that you were willing to get shot up all the time'" (Brinkley, 91-92). He didn't change his mind about the war, as you'll see in number 2, but he was willing to get shot. You can not believe in the mission and still understand what it means to serve your country. A lot of guys went to Vietnam with that understand, did they not?

2. Unsubstantiated rumor. To my knowledge, he volunteered while still at Yale, in February of 1966. He had already become discontent with the war, at graduation he delivered an address to his class against the war.

3. Yup. He had plenty of time to practice his oratory, he was in charge of the ship's daily PA briefings. He gave history about the waters they sailed, the islands they saw etc.

4. Early out? 3 purple hearts = you're out of combat, no matter how long since you went in. I haven't gotten to this part.

5. That's a shame. Interesting to note that Nixon tried the swame kind of character assassination you are working on, and failed.

6. Gridley tiime was Vietnam duty - they spent a good chunk of his time aboard the vessel seeing combat operations in the Gulf of Tonkin. When you consider his "Tour of Duty" you really have to also include what he did as the leading VVAW spokesperson, POW investigations in the with McCain, and "normalizing" relations with Vietnam in the 90s. There's nothing short about his "tour." In fact, there ain't much "short" about John Kerry. hehe.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

126. At least he served his country

Unlike some AWOL presidents I know.

[maddezmom]

130. if Kerry wins the nod, bush*&co won't touch this issue. nt

[dreissig]

188. They Won't Have To

Kerry is connected to Jane Fonda through the VVAW. He's not one of the founders of that group but he became one of the leaders after he and Jane Fonda were speakers at a rally following the march from Morristown to Valley Forge, a VVAW project called "Operation RAW". Source: Gerald Nicosia's "Home to War".

The Republicans will certainly use this, and take advantage of Kerry's short tour to impugn his military record.

[dreissig]

164. Kerry's Short Tour

Kerry's incredible short tour in Vietnam neutralizes much of the advantage Democrats hope to achieve over Bush in the General Election. Democrats are taking veterans' votes for granted. This issue doesn't necessarily play the way you think it does.

Getting out early on your own petition is a form of betrayal. But don't argue it with me; I'm not the one who needs to be convinced.

[MaineDem]

179. I'm wondering what your issue is here

Did you serve a full year in Vietnam? Two volunteer stints maybe?

Are you retired military with many battle scars? I don't get it.

And for my own piece of mind it's time for me to use that new little feature on DU.

[dreissig]

186. Misgivings About Kerry

I think John Kerry was just an ordinary guy, not a hero. Bored in his job aboard the Gridley, he transferred to riverine duty and found it too ethically compromising and too dangerous. He wanted out, and he got out.

It shouldn't be difficult to find the statements of the witnesses to the events for which Kerry was awarded a Silver Star, but it is. Because those statements support the citation, voters should decide for themselves whether a discrepancy exists and whether it reflects negatively on Senator Kerry.

How do you get three Purple Hearts in three months? This has an odd look to it. Were these legitimate Purple Hearts? Healthy, able-bodied John Kerry then boarded a plane back to the U.S. To avoid a later accusation of abandoning his crew, Kerry arranged to have them reassigned to safer duty.

As for the claim that Kerry served two tours in Vietnam, let him post his DD214. Was duty on a blue-water ship considered "combat"? Let's see the DD214.

[UTUSN]

181. I Dragged Through This Entire Thread Just to Watch It Die

and to be fair. Some points:

1- The DD 214 is the discharge instrument/document. It shows basic information (Service #, SSAN, SUM (not Dates) of -TOTAL- Service, total "Foreign &/or Sea Service", the Decorations earned, the Training received, etc.) If the member recorded a copy at the county courthouse, which was recommended, it is VERY public. It is the PAGE FIVE of the Navy service record that is the "History of Assignments", not the 214, that lists every duty station, reporting for duty, date of departure.

2- There is a continuing insinuation throughout the original poster's posts here that there is some mechanical equivalence to ALL tours of VN duty, that the ONLY acceptable tour is a complete year, regardless of job function. Somebody I know was on an LST on river duty, technically for a year. After 7 months the ship took R&R in the Phillippines and six weeks of dry dock in Guam, plus a few side trips to Japan during the year. Deduct that from the dude's record, O.K.? Also, the entire time on the river, in-country, the ship basically delivered supplies to an Army base. This dude, apparently spent MORE time than KERRY in VN, so he must be a BIGGER hero, right? Oh, and the LST earned 3 Combat Action Ribbons for being fired on on 3 different days during the entire year. You might want to deduct the time spent drinking beer at the Army base and in Saigon, too.

3- Some medals ARE given out like Cracker Jacks prizes; others aren't. When you VOLUNTEER to enlist, you earn ("get") the National Defense Service Medal, JUST LIKE THAT. When you get off the plane in Saigon, you "get" the VN Service Medal, plus two others from the South VN government, JUST LIKE THAT. Every couple or three months when a new campaign is named, you get yet another VNSM (a star on the original). The other kind of medals are not the Cracker Jack variety, the Purple Heart, Silver & Bronze Stars. These are the additional ones KERRY "got" (EARNED).

4- It is degrading and demeaning to put down ANYBODY's service, not to mention your pursuit of a hateful vendetta ("Search" on author). The military has all kinds of jobs: A comparative few are actual heavy combat, and you never know which one, the Cook, might end up meeting your romantic and ad hoc definitions of "heroism".

5- Then there's calling a good Democrat, who happens to be very Liberal, "a snake".

6- There is a familiar pattern in this thread: Post a smear. Many posters respond reasonably with actual answers. Original poster IGNORES all the responses and harps on ONE hook ("Gimme the 214, gimme the 214"). Original poster's agenda can NEVER be satisfied with reasonable responses.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

185. I can't search yet

(Contributing today)

but I am curious--does this guy/gal support any candidate, and what is the history revealed in the previous posts (it's a lot of posts)? I alerted on this thread twice already because it essentially just bashes one of the Dem candidates, and he/she just keeps it going asking the same stupid questions that have already been answered. All the points have been made. I've had two threads locked because of what I feel were really arbitrary technical reasons (p*ssed me off because I put a lot of effort into the posts) but I really think this one should be. All the answer's to "dreissig"'s questions are within the thread and this harping is just to run Kerry down.

I am a 15 year Navy vet. I am looking at my DD-214 right now and it is a very dry one page document, just basic facts like when I comissioned and got out, Honorable Discharge, lists decorations etc. Tells nothing about things like requests for transfer and the reasons, etc. It does not list the dates of my various duty stations, that is other places within the Officer Service Record.

[dreissig]

187. Facts and Interpretations

Whether or not Kerry "bugged out" is a matter of interpretation, not a matter of fact. I'm asking for something definitive on the amount of time Kerry spent in country. Was it three months? Four months? Was Kerry's time aboard the Gridley considered combat duty?

These are questions for which answers exist. Do voters need to know how long Kerry was actually in Vietnam? I'd say they do, especially since Kerry makes such a big deal about what he learned while he was there.

At other times besides an election season it would probably be inappropriate to demand detailed answers about someone's military record. It's well to recall the history of the word "candidate":

In ancient Rome citizens used to indicate their willingness to stand for election to a public office by wearing a loose white robe known as a candidatus (the Latin word for white is candidus). The candidatus was worn loose so that the citizens' scars could be seen by all - thus indicating the citizen's bravery, and it was white to symbolise fidelity and humanity. In this way the English word candidate was born.
http://www.learn.co.uk/yvote/lessons/democsecondary/roots.htm

[UTUSN]

191. The "Issue" Is Wholly In YOUR Mind

Several posters have answered the slant of your fabricated issue. Since the exact number of days is such a burning issue for you, I am totally sure that if you e-mail the KERRY website, somebody will concretely give you the number of days, hours, minutes, and seconds. But for your purposes, the INTENSITY of what was done ought to be factored-in besides just raw time spent. Besides, whatever time it was, it was totally more than Shrub's chemical abusing at home. Since you said you won't vote for this Dem if he is the nominee and have called a good Democrat "a snake", sign up for Shrub and be done with it, without wasting everybody's time.

[dreissig]

193. Fabricated Issue

I'm not fabricating Kerry's baggage, I'm trying to weigh it.

Kerry's going to have to defend his VVAW connection to Jane Fonda, and he won't necessarily be immunized because of his war record. Kerry's short tour neutralizes some of his putative heroism. (How much glory can be packed into three months?)

The Fonda connection is non-trivial, as I'm finding out in Gerald Nicosia's "Home To War" a book with enthusiastic cover blurbs written by heavyweight names - Howard Zinn, Oliver Stone and David Hackworth.

I'm still sorting this out. Clearly there's more research to be done, and I'll have to dig up some other sources. Nicosia says Fonda sacked VVAW founding father Al Hubbard and kept Kerry. Sounds to me that Fonda's money brought her lots of clout and she wasn't afraid to push important people out of the way. She was definitely a player in VVAW, and so was Kerry. What was the relationship between these two prominent Vietnam figures? (Hint - don't look for links on the World Wide Web!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Veterans_Against_the_War

[Feanorcurufinwe]

199. John Kerry in Vietnam and after

In an intense three months of combat following that Christmas Eve battle, Kerry often would go beyond his Navy orders and beach his boat, in one case chasing and killing a teenage Viet Cong enemy who wore only a loin cloth and carried a rocket launcher. Kerry's aggressiveness in combat caused a commanding officer to wonder whether he should be given a medal or court-martialed. Kerry would watch in despair as a crewmate killed a boy who may or may not have been an innocent civilian. He would angrily challenge a military policy that risked the death of noncombatants. And he would try to escape the fate of five of his closest friends, all killed in combat.

Along with Kerry's unquestionable and repeated bravery, he also took an action that has received far less notice: He requested and was granted a transfer out of Vietnam six months before his combat tour was slated to end on the grounds that he had earned three Purple Hearts. None of his wounds was disabling; he said one cost him two days of service and the other two did not lead to any absence. No period better captures the internal conflicts besetting John Kerry than Vietnam. He enlisted as a Navy officer candidate despite his criticisms as Yale's class orator of America's intervention in Southeast Asia. He would become a war hero, recipient of the Silver and Bronze stars, but would also become an antiwar leader, causing some former crewmates to feel he had betrayed them.

<snip>

In any case, Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy put civilians at such high risk. So, on Jan. 22, 1969, Kerry and several dozen fellow skippers and officers traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr. ''We were fighting the (free fire) policy very, very hard, to the point that many of the members were refusing to carry out orders on some of their missions, to the point where crews were starting to mutiny, (to) say, `I would not go back in the rivers again,''' Kerry recalled during a 1971 television appearance on the Dick Cavett Show.

But Kerry went back in the rivers. Indeed, it was after this meeting that he began his most deadly round of combat. Within days of the Saigon meeting, he joined a five-man crew on swift boat No. 94 on a series of missions in which he won the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and two of his three Purple Hearts. Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml





The following excerpts are drawn from Douglas Brinkley's Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War.
<snip>

There are so many ways this letter could become a bitter diatribe and go rambling off into irrational nothings. I don't know really where to begin—everything is so hollow and ridiculous, so stilted and so empty. I have never in my life been so alone with something like this before. I feel so bitter and angry and everywhere around me there is nothing but violence and war and gross insensitivity. I am really very frightened to be honest because when the news sunk in I had no alternatives but to carry on in the face of trivia that forced me to build a horrible protective screen around myself. Something that has never happened to my feelings before. I could not even allow myself the right to think about what was happening as much as everything inside me wanted to. I was standing watch on the bridge when the executive officer called me over and after an ominous pause asked if I had a friend called Pershing. I just stood there frozen and then read your telegram knowing already in my heart the Godawful wasteful stuid thing that had happened...

Right now everything that is superficial and emotional wants to give up and just feel sorry but I can't. I am involved in something that keeps pushing on regardless of the individual and which even with what has happened must, I know deep, deep down inside me, be coped with rationally and with strength. I do feel strong and despite emptiness and waste, I still have hope and confidence. There is a beast in me that keeps pushing me on saying Johnny you can't let go because of this—Johnny you find some sense from this—Johnny you are too strong to stop now—something keeps me going harder than before. Judy, if I do nothing else in my life I will never stop trying to bring to people the conviction of how wasteful and asinine is a human expenditure of this kind. I don't mean this in an all-consuming world saving fashion. I just mean that my own effort must be entire and thorough and that it must do what it can to help make this a better world to live in. I have not lost faith—on the contrary—I have gained a conviction and desire greater than ever before—and now, a sense of inevitability—a weighty fatalism that takes worry out of the small actions of late and makes the personal much more important.
<snip>
Then, Kerry wrote, he looked over at the young woman they had detained, "who was squatting in the rear of the PBR." She was defiant. She sat very calmly, watching the movements of the men who had just blown four of her countrymen to bits. She glared at me. I wondered about her boyfriend who was fighting us somewhere else. The PBR crew said that the men in the sampan got what they had coming to them but I felt a certain sense of guilt, shame, sorrow, remorse—something inexplicable about the way they were shot and about the predicament of the girl. I wanted to touch her and tell her that it was going to be all right but I didn't really know that it would be. Besides, she wouldn't have accepted my gesture with anything but scorn. I looked away and did nothing at all which was really all I could do. I hated all of us for the situation which stripped people of their self respect.

<snip>

"I know that most of my friends felt absolutely absurd going up a river holding a loaded weapon that was supposed to be used against someone who had never really done anything to you and on whose land you were now trespassing," Kerry wrote. "I had always felt that to kill, hate was necessary and I certainly didn't hate these people." In truth, he added, scanning the shore for suspicious movements to shoot at made him "feel like the biggest ass in the world." Kerry had explored similar feelings in a letter to his parents in December of 1968. Describing the sight of American soldiers and their Vietnamese girlfriends strolling down the streets of the U.S. rest-and-recreation-center city of Vung Tau one sunny afternoon, he reflected on the crucial difference between occupiers and liberators of war-torn places. "I asked myself what it would be like to be occupied by foreign troops—to have to bend to the desires of a people who could not be sensitive to the things that really counted in one's country," Kerry wrote in that letter. He had been considering Germany's occupation of France during World War II, he added, when "a thought came to me that I didn't like—I felt more like the German than the doughboy who came over to make the world safe for democracy and who rightfully had a star in his eye."

Less than three months later experience had brought him to another melancholy observation. He wrote in his war notes, It was when one of your men got hit or you got hit yourself that you felt most absurd—that was when everything had to have a meaning in order for it all to be worthwhile and inevitably Vietnam just didn't have any meaning. It didn't meet the test. When a good friend was hit and perhaps about to die, you'd ask if it was worth just his life alone—let alone all the others or your own.

"But the ease with which a man could be brought to kill another man, this always amazed me," he went on. Even more troubling to him was the imprimatur the U.S. military accorded this coldheartedness. To illustrate his point, he referred to the messages that would come in from the brass at Cam Ranh, praising the Swifts' gunners whenever they had killed a few Vietcong, and ending "Good Hunting": "Good Hunting? Good Christ—you'd think we were going out after deer or something—but here we were being patted on the back and receiving hopes that the next time we went out on a patrol we would find some more people to kill. How cheap life became."
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1119a.html




The tone was sneering. But the secretly recorded dialogue illustrates just how seriously Kerry was viewed by the Nixon White House. Some of these conversations have not been previously publicized, and Kerry said he had never heard them until they were provided by a reporter.

Day after day, according to the tapes and memos, Nixon aides worried that Kerry was a unique, charismatic leader who could undermine support for the war. Other veteran protesters were easier targets, with their long hair, their use of a Viet Cong flag, and in some cases, their calls for overthrowing the US government. Kerry, by contrast, was a neat, well-spoken, highly decorated veteran who seemed to be a clone of former President John F. Kennedy, right down to the military service on a patrol boat.

The White House feared him like no other protester.

<snip>

During private conversations with other group leaders, Kerry suggested that a veterans rally be held on the Mall in Washington, an effort Kerry hoped would refute Nixon's charge that the protesters were mostly college "bums."

"It was my sense that it wasn't going to be heard unless we went to a place where the issue was joined," Kerry said. "It was my idea to come to Washington. It was my idea to do the march. I floated that idea at the Detroit meeting. We all decided to make it happen. I became the unofficial coordinator-organizer."

Some members of the antiwar group viewed Kerry as an opportunist. He hadn't testified during the Winter Soldier hearings, hadn't organized the group, yet now he was seeking to become the coordinator and spokesman. But plenty of veterans also realized Kerry - erudite and clean-cut - was the ideal foil for those who viewed the group as hippie traitors or even communists.

So Kerry became the face of the organization, and a media sensation.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml


Kerry on the Dick Cavett show.

[dreissig]

200. Don't Bother Looking

Don't bother looking for pictures of fellow VVAW board members Jane Fonda and John Kerry standing within 20 feet of each other or even looking in the same direction. These pictures have been gone for years - totally disappeared!

There's no end of material about John Kerry war hero - 60,000 hits on Google.