Will Kerry get the gun owner vote that abandoned Al Gore in 2000?

[funkyflathead]

Dean is the only one who realized that the gun issue actually hurt Al Gore in places.

Kerry had been attacking Dean as an NRA stooge despite Dean not being "pro gun enough" for the NRA.

I think it could come back to haunt Kerry in the South and West.

[Frances]

1. I think whoever is advising Kerry

to play hockey games and to throw a football is doing a good job. Kerry looked convincing out on the ice to me. He also looked very natural throwing a football.

I think he will look natural with a rifle in his hands too. He says he is a hunter and I believe him. (I am for reasonable gun control but I grew up in Alabama and my husband grew up in Washington state and we both know that hunting is legal and even helps to feed some families.)

I think Kerry should challenge Bush to a football throwing contest. I think he should also challenge Bush to a shooting contest.

Bush is a phony macho man. I think Kerry is the real thing.

Once again, though, I am ABB and will proudly support whoever runs on the Dem ticket.

[bowens43]

2. Any evidence to support your assertion

that 'the gun' issue hurt Al Gore or anyone else? I think that 'the gun' issue is over blown by those who oppose reasonable regulations. I don't believe that the issue hurt Gore or anyone else.

[Frances]

7. I disagree

I think there was a study that showed the gun issue cost Gore West Virginia.

When Warner (Dem governor of very Republican Virginia) ran for governor of Virginia, he made a big point of meeting with hunters. He talked with the NRA as well. If Warner had not neutralized the gun owners, he would not have won the election, according to most people I know in Virginia.

[formernaderite]

116. The gun issue WILL hurt him....

...particularly since 2000 more Americans have become comfortable with the idea that guns may be a source of protection in this world. It's the only issue that I have heated disagreements with progressives over...
Democrats and progressives should leave gun owners alone. I often feel it's a racial issue with many whites, they want the gun laws strengthened to protect them from a perceived minority criminal element. Every place that has enacted strict gun control seems to fit that racial profile.

[1a2b3c]

14. Clinton seemed to think it hurt him

It was one of the reasons i didnt vote for him.

[Sandpiper]

19. Thanks for helping to elect Bush four years ago

Proud of yourself?

[1a2b3c]

26. Well i dont quite see how i did that, but yes

I am very proud of the way i voted in 2000.

[MrBenchley]

28. This malarkey gets peddled in the "gungeon" J/PS

from time to time, and exposed as the crap it is....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&...

For example, here's the core of an article supposedly telling us what Democrats think and how much Americans pined for guns and feared Gore would take theirs.....

"says James Jay Baker, legislative director of the National Rifle Association."
"says Rep. Bob Barr, R-Ga., who was just elected to a second 3-year term on the NRA board."
"In a letter written to Baker in May, Ashcroft said "
"Republican pollster Bill McInturff asks."

Here's the article in question...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-08-07-pilots-_x.htm

The only Democratic quote is hapless Joe Lieberman...and even then it's not clear that he's endorsing the point of the article.

Here's another on the subject...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=9898#10123

Note that the article produced in THAT one as evidence quotes:

"U.S. Rep. Zach Wamp, R-Tenn., boiled the Gore loss down to one word."
"National Rifle Association spokesman Bill Powers said "

And in the same article "Democrats say the Gore national campaign failed to focus enough on Tennessee."

[1a2b3c]

53. and weve seen countless posts from the rabbid gun controllers

saying that gun control had nothing to do with it, yet everywhere we read people saying that it was part of the problem.

Plus, Gore got more liberal as he tried to appeal to a broader national audience, angering some Tennesseans by changing his stance on issues including abortion, gun control and tobacco. http://asp.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/tn/main03.htm

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/02/07/gun.html
The Veep casts himself as the hero of gun control, but didn't he use to be the NRA's good friend?
As a young representative of a conservative Tennessee district, Gore opposed putting serial numbers on guns so they could be traced, and voted to cut the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms budget by $4.2 million so that it could not carry out regulations that had unleashed a torrent of 300,000 letters from gun owners. This one you might like. It talks about Gore being too pro-gun and changing to fit his party platform. Ironicly now we are arguing that his gun control stance cost him the election. Maybe he should have kept his original stance??? who knows.

The perception that Democrats are hostile to the rights of gun owners has damaged the party in the last two elections and will do so again in 2004 unless they change their ways, the Democratic Leadership Council said yesterday.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031016-104703-1418r.htm

For Election 2000, Gun Control Is One Dangerous Issue
Here's why: The issue of gun control cuts across traditional political lines like none other. Which Americans are the most likely to favor a ban on the sale of handguns? According to a newly released Pew Research Center poll, it's the wealthiest and best educated -- both normally Republican voting groups. And which Americans are the most opposed to tough gun curbs? Non-college grads and those earning under $30,000 a year -- both historically Democratic constituencies. http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr2000/nf00424f.htm So according to business week the democrats are trying to get the rich republican votes with gun control and casting the guy making only 30k a year to the side.

Rural Tennessee for instance, like much of the South, likes its guns and is wary of anyone who might take them away. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1007541.stm

But maybe you guys are right. Maybe gun control didnt play a part in losing the election at all.

[MrBenchley]

73. The Washington Times?

Yeah, they sure have the best interests of Democrats in mind when they write that crap.

Worth noting that the USA today story doesn't quote any DEMOCRATS.

"So according to business week the democrats are trying to get the rich republican votes with gun control and casting the guy making only 30k a year to the side."
Yeah, that's a plausible scenario......in Bizarroworld.

[Sandpiper]

95. Quoting The Moonie Times?

If someone's trying to make a point, surely they can do better than quoting a right wing fish wrapper like the Washington Times.

[IndianaGreen]

99. You are not going to find it in Kerry's website!

Kerry supporters are increasingly attacking the sources used as a tactic to defend their candidate without having to respond to the substantive charges being leveled against Kerry.

This is the Democratic version of Republicans dismissing news sources as "being too liberal" or "CNN is the Clinton News Network." The result is to protect a candidate that should be exposed for what he truly is!

Kerry is the Phoney Deal!

[Sandpiper]

101. And the Moonie Times is still a Right Wing Fish Wrapper

And I'm utterly unimpressed by anything that comes from its pages. Nice try to deflect attention from it though.

Maybe you can guide me to a link from Rush Limbaugh or Fox News next.

[MrBenchley]

120. Worth noting

the loony cult leader who runs the Washington Times (and a bunch of other wing-nut publications) also OWNS gun factories...

[MrBenchley]

122. Ahem...

"Democratic version of Republicans dismissing news sources as "being too liberal" or "CNN is the Clinton News Network." "
There's quite a difference between "being too liberal" and "being owned by a demented cult leader and edited by a neoConfederate."

Just as there's a whopping difference between "news" and "bilge published by the Moonies."

[frustrated_lefty]

34. It clearly hurt him in Tennessee. (eom)

[Sandpiper]

3. Considering he got the most votes

How badly did the gun issue really hurt Al Gore?

[AntiCoup2K4]

12. Probably cost him his home state, for one thing.

If I remember correctly, the NRA advertised heavily in the South. Basically it was a fear campaign to say "Al Gore wants your guns".

Make no mistake about it, the NRA would go after Kerry too. Hunter and veteran or not. The NRA can't go after Dean without contradicting themselves.

And the NRA really doesn't want to give up their branch office at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, so if the Democratic party gives them a candidate they can attack, you better believe they'll throw everything they got.

[Sandpiper]

15. SCOTUS cost Al Gore

The presidency in 2000, not the gun issue.

[1a2b3c]

57. and they wouldnt have had anything to do with the election

If he would have won his home state.

[Sandpiper]

72. Ok, if you want to keep living in fantasy land

I can't stop you. But if guns were such a huge issue, why did 530,000 more people vote for Gore?

[TexasMexican]

97. Electoral College

like it or not its the way our consitution was written.

Guns are an important issue, it did hurt Gore.

[Sandpiper]

100. Electoral College

Hijacked by SCOTUS in Bush v. Gore. What in the world did that have to do with guns?

[TexasMexican]

102. Well if he had enough armed supporters.

Things could have played out extremely differently. ;)

That being said, had he been more gun friendly and won the gun states then Florida would have been a moot point.

[MrBenchley]

32. The NRA will go after Dean too....

"Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the NRA, recently said that Dean, as well as other Democratic candidates, is "anti-second amendment"."

http://www.marinfordean.org/article_text.asp?articleid=185

What enrages LaPierre and his nutcase klavern is that thanks to Campaign Finance Reform, their anti-Democrat ads will have to be identified as coming from the NRA and not some phony group like "Disabled Shut-ins For Urban Safety Committee."

[frustrated_lefty]

36. Guess that's why they give him an A+ rating? (eom)

[Sandpiper]

50. Yes, the NRA loves Howard Dean

Pity that the voters don't feel the same way.

[SharonAnn]

42. The gun issue definitely cost Gore the Tennessee delegates

The GOP had people campaigning all over the state about how the Democrats were coming to "take away our guns'. Even had Charlton heston out here.

This is a big gun rights area.

[Monte Carlo]

20. Gore let his opponents say what his position was.

He didn't effectively counter the "The Democrats are trying to grab your guns to enslave you through taxes" line. Kerry has used firearms in war and continues to use them today hunting. Maybe, just maybe, he could do better at defining himself than Gore did on this.

[MrBenchley]

35. Gore also had peace and a booming economy

and so sideshows like guns became core issues.

This election the core issues are going to be VERY different.

[Sandpiper]

51. When you've been unemployed for a year

Whether or not you can own an AR15 suddenly becomes a lot less important.

[1a2b3c]

60. I tend to disagree

When i was unemployed i was glad that i could own guns, its how i ate most of the time.

[Sandpiper]

66. When Clinton won in '92

I don't recall the issue being "It's the guns stupid"

But maybe that's just me.

Not to mention, if you're unemployed and living in NYC or LA, what are you going to hunt? Rats?

[HazMat]

71. lol

[1a2b3c]

74. Is NYC and LA the only 2 places in america?

I was unemployed in Seattle and found plenty of places to hunt and fish.

Clintons win in 92 had a little to do with guns. Gun owners felt betrayed by bush who signed the 1989 gun ban. They didnt vote for him. I never said guns was the only reason Al Gore lost did i? I just think denying that it was a part of the reason makes a person either stupid or dishonest.

[Sandpiper]

88. Are you the official representative

Of the average American voter? Every example you give involves only yourself and things that you've done. Guns are obviously are very important issue to you. And since they're that important to you, you seem to impose this view onto everyone else. Guns are not an important issue to me. Guess that makes it push doesn't it, since my vote counts as much as yours.

[formernaderite]

118. Guns are important to many people...

...don't kid yourself.

[MrBenchley]

92. Exactly

Who but the Tim McVeigh wannabes are really fretting as to whether or not their guns are going to be confiscated by liberals?

And those folks hate minorities, gays and uppity women as much as they love their guns...

[Sandpiper]

96. It makes me sad to see

Fellow dems carrying the banner for the NRA. The NRA cares a lot more about getting far right republicans elected than protecting gun rights.

[MrBenchley]

117. Without pointing fingers in any way

you might find this thread on a "gun owners" forum interesting to say the least...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33227&highlight=%2ADemocratic+Underground%2A

[HazMat]

4. Dean wouldn't have

received the gun vote either.

It's much more likely that gun owners will vote for Kerry -- they did in Iowa and NH. The reason is gun owners tend to be tough, macho types who respect military service, who would never respect a man like Dean who got a 1Y deferrment and went skiing while other men like Clark and Kerry were bleeding in Vietnam.

[Catholic Sensation]

5. maybe I'm high

but didn't Gore get more votes than Bush?

[Frances]

10. Of course, Gore got more votes than Bush

but we needed a clear electoral victory. I believe that the Dems can win some of the red states in the midwest if the Dem candidate is seen as macho.

I have participated in Million Mom March activities, and I am for sensible gun control but I believe it is lunacy to be anti-hunting.

Besides, if you had grown up where I did when I did you would know that some hunting is actually done for food.

[JohnKleeb]

6. not sure but Kerry did win the gun owner vote in NH from what I read

[sandnsea]

16. Yes he did

Common sense gun responsibility. Most people get it. Now if we could just get our few straggling Democrats on board, maybe we'd get the last couple of laws passed and knock this issue out once and for all.

[funkyflathead]

27. Bush won NH in 2000

and when Kerry runs against Bush in 2004 Bush will win the gun vote.

[sandnsea]

44. Bush is for Brady

So there really isn't a debate here anymore. Americans want responsible gun ownership and they understand that's all the Brady Bill requires.

[Sandpiper]

69. There are always going to be a few people

Who think that they only gun problem that this country has is that there aren't enough of them. :eyes:

[MrBenchley]

8. Too funny...

*the World Trade Center was blown up and the guy who did it got away because his family's in canoots with the Bush crime family;
*three million jobs have gone down the toilet while the GOP has pushed for tax breaks for billionaires;
*More than 500 Americans have died and thousands more have been wounded, and thousands of innocent Iraqis have been murdered and maimed in a war built entirely on lies that continues to go on months after this unelected drunk dressed up like a pilot and declared victory;
*The church/state wall is being torn down and the Constitution has been trashed;
*The courts are being packed with right wing loonies;
*Open graft and corporate crime have become commonplace; and
*the clock is being turned back daily on the environment, civil rights, labor law, public education and public health.

The tiny clot of voters who think the primo issue is that John Kerry or any other Democrat is going to take away their precious guns are Timmy McVeigh wannabes. They're as likely to vote Democratic in their lifetimes as David Koresh is likely to arise from the grave as the Messiah and start performing miracles.

[KaraokeKarlton]

9. Nope, he has an F rating with the NRA and other groups

that gun owners belong to. Dean is the only Democrat who can take the gun owner votes from Bush.

[funkyflathead]

21. That is why I am a Dean supporter

Dean realizes that lawfully owned guns are not a problem and law abiding citizens should not be disarmed.

[1a2b3c]

11. My gun owner vote goes to Ralph Nader again

Sorry i aint voting for Kerry people.

[Sandpiper]

18. Why not just vote for Bush?

He's a gun enthusiast, and voting for Nader will help accomplish the same thing...four more years of Bush.

[1a2b3c]

30. umm....cause im not conservative?

:-)

[Sandpiper]

31. No, just a single issue voter

[1a2b3c]

62. Too funny

I got to be the ONLY single issue gun voter who wants to vote for Ralph Nader. You are cracking me up. Tell me youre not really serious.

[Sandpiper]

64. Ok you're not

But you're not going to vote for Kerry because of his stance on guns. Nope, that's not single issue voting. Not at all. :eyes:

[1a2b3c]

76. I am not voting for kerry because

he is a professional politician.

a drug warrior.

A senator.

I dont trust him.

Nader fits me better.

I hate the 2 party system.

Nader fits me better.

He agrees with the assault weapons ban, yet couldnt tell you what it does.

He is for gun owners, as long as they are hunters.

Nader fits me better.

Did i mention i dont trust him?

[Sandpiper]

89. I used to trust Ralph Nader

Until he said that there was no difference between Al Gore and George W. Bush.

[formernaderite]

119. you sound like me....

...what the status quo democrats don't understand, is that Dean managed to light the fire once again. Everyone in the democratic party is pissed off at the Nader votes, yet they're willing to discount those voters during the primary season...Fine. I just hope they stop their whining during the general.

[Monte Carlo]

13. New Hampshire loves its firearms.

N.H.'s state slogan is "Live Free or Die", and it is not just a slogan there. They print it on the licence plates. The state has a STRONG libertarian streak. There are many gun owners in N.H., and Kerry did very well for himself there. Most reasonable gun owners think there should be reasonable forms of control on them among the public.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. Being against the NRA does not mean being against gun owners.

The divisive, dishonest and destructive politics of the NRA should be denounced by all of our candidates. Here in Montana, the NRA targeted Senator Max Baucus after he voted for the AWB -- and we've re-elected him twice.

I applaud Kerry for having the guts to take on the NRA and show that the Second Amendment is not incompatible with common-sense.





As for Dean, thankfully, it looks like the party is rejecting the direction in which he would lead us:

[sillymikey]

22. Kerrys words on Gun Control

Democratic Party shouldn't be for the NRA
Q: Do you find it necessary to kill animals for photo-ops?
A: I don't think the Democratic Party should be the candidacy of the NRA. And when I was fighting to ban assault weapons in 1992 and 1993, Dean was appealing to the NRA for their endorsement, and he got it. I believe it's important for us to have somebody who is going to stand up for gun safety in America and make certain that we make our streets safe, our children safe, and not allow people to get assault weapons in America.
-Source: CNN "Rock The Vote" Democratic Debate Nov 5, 2003


Supports assault weapons ban & Brady Bill
Q: Your views on gun safety.
KERRY: There's a story in today's Washington Post that says that Democrats are going to run away from the issue of gun safety. I don't think that we can get elected nationally if we are not prepared to stand up against powerful special interests. Too many die each year from guns. I am for the assault weapons ban. I'm for the Brady Bill.
-Source: Democratic Presidential 2004 Primary Debate in Detroit Oct 27, 2003
Voted YES on background checks at gun shows.
Require background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows.
Status: Amdt Agreed to Y)50; N)50; VP decided YES
Reference: Lautenberg Amdt #362; Bill S. 254 ; vote number 1999-134 on May 20, 1999

Voted NO on more penalties for gun & drug violations.
The Hatch amdt would increase mandatory penalties for the illegal transfer or use of firearms, fund additional drug case prosecutors, and require background check on purchasers at gun shows. .
Status: Amdt Agreed to Y)48; N)47; NV)5
Reference: Hatch Amendment #344; Bill S. 254 ; vote number 1999-118 on May 14, 1999

Voted NO on loosening license & background checks at gun shows.
Vote to table or kill a motion to require that all gun sales at gun shows be completed by federally licensed gun dealers. Also requires background checks to be completed on buyers and requires gun show promoters to register with the Treasury.
Bill S.254 ; vote number 1999-111 on May 11, 1999

Voted NO on maintaining current law: guns sold without trigger locks.
Vote to table an amendment to make it unlawful for gun dealers to sell handguns without providing trigger locks. Violation of the law would result in civil penalties, such as suspension or revocation of the dealer's license, or a fine.
Bill S 2260 ; vote number 1998-216 on Jul 21, 1998

Prevent unauthorized firearm use with "smart gun" technology.
Kerry signed the manifesto, "A New Agenda for the New Decade":
Make America the “Safest Big Country” in the World
After climbing relentlessly for three decades, crime rates started to fall in the 1990s. Nonetheless, the public remains deeply concerned about the prevalence of gun violence, especially among juveniles, and Americans still avoid public spaces like downtown retail areas, parks, and even sports facilities.

We need to keep policing “smart” and community-friendly, prohibiting unjust and counterproductive tactics such as racial profiling; focus on preventing as well as punishing crime; pay attention to what happens to inmates and their families after sentencing; use mandatory testing and treatment to break the cycle of drugs and crime; and enforce and strengthen laws against unsafe or illegal guns. Moreover, we need a renewed commitment to equal justice for all, and we must reject a false choice between justice and safety.

Technology can help in many areas: giving police more information on criminal suspects so they do not rely on slipshod, random stop-and-search methods; allowing lower-cost supervision of people on probation or parole; and making it possible to disable and/or trace guns used by unauthorized persons.

Above all, we need to remember that public safety is the ultimate goal of crime policy. Until Americans feel safe enough to walk their neighborhood streets, enjoy public spaces, and send their children to school without fear of violence, we have not achieved public safety.

Goals for 2010
Reduce violent crime rates another 25 percent.
Cut the rate of repeat offenses in half.
Develop and require “smart gun” technology to prevent use of firearms by unauthorized persons and implement sensible gun control measures.
Ban racial profiling by police but encourage criminal targeting through better information on actual suspects.
Require in-prison and post-prison drug testing and treatment of all drug offenders.

[sillymikey]

29. And Now Deans..

Different states need different gun laws
Q: Don't you think your stance that gun control laws should vary state by state ignores the fact that guns can easily travel across state lines and be used in crimes in states different from where they were purchased?
A: I come from a rural state with a very low homicide state and no gun control other than the federal laws. I support those federal laws vigorously. Hunters don't need AK-47s to shoot deer and most hunters I know don't believe that it should be easier for criminals to get their hands on guns, but I know that states like California and New Jersey want more gun control than that. I believe that they should be allowed to pass what gun controls they think they need, but that it is unreasonable to apply laws that may be necessary in California to rural states like Montana or Vermont. The cross border issue has been resolved in one case: Virginia now limits the availability of gun purchases because so many Virginia guns were turning up in New York City illegally.

Source: Concord Monitor / WashingtonPost.com on-line Q&A Nov 6, 2003

Background checks for gun shows
Q: What's your position on guns?
A: I support the assault weapons ban. I do not support the elimination of liability for gun owners. I support background checks. And I support background checks for people who buy guns at gun shows. I come from a rural state where people hunt. We have the lowest homicide rate in America. So my attitude is, let's have those federal laws and enforce them. And then let every state make additional gun control as they see fit.

Source: CNN "Rock The Vote" Democratic Debate Nov 5, 2003

Endorsed by NRA eight times as VT governor
John Kerry criticized Dean's 1992 statement to the National Rifle Association that he opposed any restriction on private ownership of assault weapons. "Howard Dean's opposition to sensible gun safety measures is indefensible," Kerry said. "It explains why he has been endorsed by the NRA eight times. I believe we must put the safety of our children and families ahead of special interests like the NRA."
Dean responded, "I come from a rural state with a very low homicide rate. We had five homicides one year. It's a state where hunting is a part of our life. I understand that's not the traditional Democratic position." Dean said "when you're running for governor, they ask you what you would do in your state." Dean aides said the opposition to restrictions on assault weapons that Dean expressed on the signed 1992 NRA questionnaire applied only to a state ban, defined broadly enough to also apply to shotguns commonly used by hunters in Vermont.

Source: Associated Press in Minneapolis Star-Tribune Oct 31, 2003

Leading Dems distance themselves from divisive gun debate
Democratic presidential candidates are distancing themselves from tough gun control, reversing a decade of rhetoric and advocacy by the Democratic Party in favor of federal regulation of firearms.
Howard Dean proudly tells audiences that the NRA endorsed him as governor of Vermont, and that he would leave most gun laws to the states. Dick Gephardt, a longtime gun control advocate, is careful to highlight his support for law-abiding gun owners. John Edwards says, "Guns are about independence. They don't want people messing with that."

As a result, Democratic strategists predict the debate over gun laws in this campaign will be less divisive. Democrats might fight for narrow proposals to make guns safer and more difficult for children and criminals to obtain, they said, yet voters are likely to hear as much about enforcing existing gun laws as creating new ones-a position Republicans and the NRA have pushed for years.

Source: Jim VandeHei, Washington Post, p. A1 Oct 26, 2003

Supports assault weapons ban and Brady bill
In response to a question on where he stands on gun control, he said he supports the assault weapons ban and Brady bill, but that gun control means different things in different regions and should be left up to the states.
When you say 'gun control' in New York, they think it's taking away Uzis on the street, he said. "When you say 'gun control' in Wyoming, it means they're going to take away the squirrel rifle that your grandfather gave you."

Source: Lincoln Anderson, The Villager Apr 10, 2003

Get guns off the national radar screen: no new federal laws
If I thought gun control would save lives in Vermont, I would support it. If you say "gun control" in Vermont or Tennessee, people think you want to take away their hunting rifle. If you say "gun control" New York or L.A., people are happy to see Uzi's or illegal handguns taken off the streets. I think Vermont ought to be able to have a different set of laws than California. Let's keep and enforce the federal gun laws we have, close the gun show loophole using Insta-check, and then let the states decide for themselves what if any gun control laws they want. We need to get guns off the national radar screen if Democrats are ever going to win again in the South and the West. Just as we resist attempts by President Bush to dictate to the states how we run our school systems and what kind of welfare programs to have, we need to resist attempts to tell states how to deal with guns beyond existing Federal law.
Source: Campaign web site, DeanForAmerica.com, "On the Issues" Nov 30, 2002

No more federal gun laws; leave them to states
Dean brags that he has an A rating from the National Rifle Association. Dean favors the existing federal gun-control laws but believes that any further gun control is best left to individual states.
Source: Charles P. Pierce, Boston Globe Nov 24, 2002

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. What's your point?

[HazMat]

24. The NRA is out of step with it's own members

Most NRA members are NOT opposed to the AWB, according to what I've read. Most Repubs are not against reasonable gun control -- after all, they tend to be the 'law and order' ones.

I've read whereas extreme gun control hurts us badly reasonable gun control actually puts us in a better vote-getting position than the NRA.

[funkyflathead]

33. Wrong

The NRA has a website opposing the assault weapons ban so yeah most of it's members are AGAINST the 1994 AWB.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

38. Did you misread the post you were responding to?

The poster said that the NRA is out of step with it's membership on this issue. Citing the NRA's official stance does not address that point.

[funkyflathead]

43. Are you a member of the NRA?

The NRA is NOT out of step with it's membership.

Peddle that BS elsewhere. Jusr read "American Rifleman" magazine.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

56. Are you a member of the NRA?

What is the basis of your assertion? Anecdotal evidence from "American Rifleman" magazine? The poster didn't say that the the NRA was out of step with the editor of "American Rifleman" magazine.

[funkyflathead]

65. I was until they.....

I found out they were giving more money directly to the RNC instead individual pro-gun candidates.

I still know some NRA members.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

91. Sounds like they were out of step with you, at least.

Thanks for the confirmation.

[dae]

Have to say I love Dean and I Love that cartoon!

:)

[dae]

54. Musta hit that dang button twice.

:)

[1a2b3c]

63. Nice fully engraved $10,000 double barrel shotgun

Wish i could afford one just like it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

90. Who knows, once we beat Bush and turn this economy around

you may be able to.

[blm]

23. Many sportsmen agree with Kerry, You don't need an AK47 to shoot deer

and Kerry happens to be a CRACK SHOT himself.

I imagine real sportsmen would also appreciate his great environmental record.

[funkyflathead]

37. This sportsman hates John Kerry

Yes I go hunting- deer, boar, feral pig, grouse, quail, woodchuck.

But I also own an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle which Kerry hates.

Screw him.

I plan on supporting Dean.

[sandnsea]

45. Did Grandma own a tommy gun??

Where in the world did people get the idea they ought to have automatic weapons in their homes? Never used to be that way.

[Sandpiper]

47. It's all part of the culture of fear

That pervades this country. Somewhere along the line, we got the mistaken idea that having more guns makes us safer, yet all available data shows that quite the opposite is true. Out of the 26 industrialized nations, the US wins by a country mile in total gun deaths and gun homicide rates.

[Redneck Socialist]

58. Nowhere in his post did he mention automatic weapons.

This is a big part of what drives gun owners crazy. There is a great deal of misinformation surrounding this issue and what it comes down to is regulating guns based almost solely on appearance.

[Sandpiper]

49. So, should Kerry alienate urban voters

By supporting looser gun regulations. Rural voters in general, hate restrictions on guns. Urban voters generally think that restrictions on guns aren't strict enough.

I can just see the dem nominee giving a speech in Los Angeles about why more people need access to assault weapons. That'll go over real well.

[blm]

59. Dean came out against assault weapons, too. Didn't you know that?

It was another one of his flip-flops.

[funkyflathead]

77. But he won't take away the guns I already have

I can see Kerry signing a bill making all lawfully owned semi-automatic "assault weapons" completely illegal.

Dean wouldn't do that.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

104. Your post is inconsistent with reality.

The only additional gun safety law that Kerry supports is a requirement to require child safety locks with handgun purchases.

If you wish to criticize Kerry's gun stance, please criticize his actual position and record rather than some anti-gun strawman that sounds like it leapt right out of the fevered dreams of an NRA lobbyist.

Increased Gun Safety

John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and he believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. But like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and those rights allow for reasonable restrictions to keep guns out of the wrong hands. John Kerry strongly supports all of the federal gun laws on the books, and he would take steps to ensure that they are vigorously enforced, cracking down hard on the gun runners, corrupt dealers, straw buyers, and thieves that are putting guns into the hands of criminals in the first place. He will also close the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair, and require that all handguns be sold with a child safety lock.
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/crime/

[Upfront]

123. Anti-Gun

If Kerry is thought to be anti-gun it will hurt him in Michigan. Anyone who doubts that is full of it. It may not cost him Michigan but it sure won't help him. I support Dean and this is one of the reasons. I would never attack Kerry in a letter to the editor on this because he is a democrat and I just could not help B### win. If I have to vote for Kerry against B### I will, but it will be the worst vote I ever cast. The day we run a Democrat Skull&Bones member against a Republican Skull&Bones member will be a sorry day for America. Do you like your current Skull & Bonehead in the office of President? Skull&Bones is not your local Boy Scout troop folks. Kerry is going to run special interests out of Washington, yet he has taken more special interest money then anyone but B###. Laughable!

[MikeG]

25. Are gun owners allowed to bring their guns into the voting booth?

[funkyflathead]

40. It depends

If you have a CCW and you are voting somwhere where it's legal to carry then yes you can.

[mohc]

41. While we are at it...

Lets go after the pro-life vote by switching our position of abortion too. Seeing as in the south, the pro-gun and pro-life vote are for the most part one in the same, it seems perfectly logical. Or maybe we should just concentrate on winning over some moderates instead....

[Sandpiper]

46. And let's not stop there

Let's go after the homophobic vote by denouncing homosexuals in the most vigorous terms and support the Defense of Marriage Amendment.

[1a2b3c]

67. Its too late

The democratic party already did this.

[Hippo_Tron]

48. Kerry needs to start talking about the issue...

He doesn't advertise the fact that he is a responsible gun owner and supporters responsible gun ownership.

[funkyflathead]

52. Yeah cause that would upset all the Million Mommers and PETA activists

He needs to come clean on the fact he supports an English style gun ownership system.

[1a2b3c]

68. Can you define this for me. I like the sound of it.

English style gun ownership system

[funkyflathead]

85. All kinds of road blocks to gun ownership

Limited numbers of guns, only certain kinds, only used for hunting, banning most ammunition.

Just like England today.

[MrBenchley]

83. Why?

What kind of person looks at America in 2004 and thinks that's anything besides a sideshow?

It's on a par with Kerry speaking out on this unelected drunk's steroid issue....

[IndianaGreen]

55. Kerry is more of a gun grabber than Al Gore ever was!

His gun grabbing record is 100%.

Kerry is against gun rights:

Voted NO on more penalties for gun & drug violations.

The Hatch amdt would increase mandatory penalties for the illegal transfer or use of firearms, fund additional drug case prosecutors, and require background check on purchasers at gun shows. .

Status: Amdt Agreed to Y)48; N)47; NV)5

Reference: Hatch Amendment #344; Bill S. 254 ; vote number 1999-118 on May 14, 1999


Voted NO on loosening license & background checks at gun shows.

Vote to table or kill a motion to require that all gun sales at gun shows be completed by federally licensed gun dealers. Also requires background checks to be completed on buyers and requires gun show promoters to register with the Treasury.
Bill S.254 ; vote number 1999-111 on May 11, 1999

Voted NO on maintaining current law: guns sold without trigger locks.

Vote to table an amendment to make it unlawful for gun dealers to sell handguns without providing trigger locks. Violation of the law would result in civil penalties, such as suspension or revocation of the dealer's license, or a fine.

Bill S 2260 ; vote number 1998-216 on Jul 21, 1998

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_Gun_Control.htm

[blm]

61. Where is the gungrabbbing? Gore was for federal registration, not Kerry.

.

[funkyflathead]

70. Where has Kerry denounced Federal gun registration?

Please post some info. Thanks

[MrBenchley]

81. Too frigging funny...

And let's not forget that a majority of voters FAVOR licensing and registration...and SERIOUS gun control.

Here's the DLC:

--90% of Americans want to close the gun show loophole
--86% want increased penalties for gun trafficking, just like Charles Schumer proposes
--79% want background checks for ALL firearm transactions
--77% want an assault weapons ban....
--67% want ALL firearms registered

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=29642

"Large majorities back most general measures for controlling guns, policies to increase gun safety, laws to restrict criminals from acquiring firearms, and measures to enforce gun laws and punish offenders. In general, a majority endorse all measures to regulate guns, increase gun safety, and reduce gun violence, except for policies that entail a general prohibition on owning guns.
88% want to make gun-safety training mandatory before a gun may be purchased. 79% support requiring a police permit before a gun can be purchased. 78% favor requiring background checks for sales between private individuals. 77% endorse the mandatory registration of handguns and 70% want handgun owners to be required to re-register their weapons at regular intervals. 77% also agree that “the government should do everything it can to keep handguns out of the hands of criminals, even if it means that it will be harder for law-abiding citizens to purchase handguns.” 74% want to require that all new handguns be personalized so they can only be fired by their legal owner. 73% favor both a background check and a five-day waiting period before a handgun may be purchased. 69% endorse limiting handgun purchases to one per month per buyer. 63% back the idea that all handgun owners should at least be licensed and trained in the use of their weapons. 52% favor allowing concealed-carry permits only for those with special needs such as private detectives.
A near majority of 49% backs having handguns limited to law enforcement personnel..."

http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/

[funkyflathead]

82. The why did it hurt Al Gore?

As a person who held his nose and voted for Gore, why did handgun registration kill him?

Why are all the Dems silent on gun registration??

[MrBenchley]

93. Who says it did but the NRA??

As we saw further up the thread....every time somebody is quoted to that effect it's either a Republican or some numbnutz from the NRA.....

And you might recall that senile pinhead Charlton Heston exhorted his inbred zealots to lynch Al Gore....

"Why are all the Dems silent on gun registration?"
Gee, you don't suppose it's because jobs, national security and the environment are all slightly more important issues in 2004, do you?

[1a2b3c]

84. Even Frigging Funnier

Is the fact that a majority of voters FAVOR licensing and registration...and SERIOUS gun control.

Yet no serious gun control is getting passed. Almost all states now have a permit for carrying concealed weapons. No one even mentions licensing anymore. And gun controllers are so retarded these days that they think background checks at gun shows means that no one can buy a gun without a background check. :eyes:

A near majority of 49% backs having handguns limited to law enforcement personnel..."

I would truly love to see where they came up with this number. How many times do cops kill the innocent black guy whos wallet looked like a gun??? Yep, thats probably the ethinic minority group that would love to see only cops with guns. Did they totally skip asking all blacks in Ohio?

[funkyflathead]

86. LOL! And high cap magazines to boot

So they can put 17 holes in them instead of 10!

[IndianaGreen]

87. The Bill of Rights is not subjected to popularity polls

There have been many polls in which people supported infringing on free speech.

Heck, after 9/11 some people were calling for rounding up and putting all Muslims in concentration camps!

As to internet polls and restrictions on freedom, we saw an example of that in a recent DU poll in which DU Admin offered the choice of having a forum with less restrictions to discuss the primary campaign, while offering another forum strictly for positive comments about candidates. A majority of DUers chose to keep the Bible-thick set of rules, and some of them are now calling for additional restrictions on free speech, particularly when that speech reflects badly on their candidate.

[Sandpiper]

94. Since you care so deeply about the Bill of Rights

You surely understand the concept of freedom of association. You do not have a right to join DU. DU is an internet forum in which you voluntarily chose to participate. In so doing, you agreed to abide by the rules and bylaws of this organization. Having agreed to voluntarily associate yourself with DU and abide by its rules, you do not have the right to violate the rules that you do not agree with. If you find something objectionable about this organization's rules, you are free to disassociate yourself from it and no longer be a member. And they are equally free to disassociate themselves from you at their own discretion.

[IndianaGreen]

106. Your speech about the "Big Tent" has been duly noted

Remind me of it when Election Day is upon us.

[Sandpiper]

107. Spare me the hyperbole

I can't stand when someone hops up on their pious soapbox and spreads misinformation about the bill of rights.

The admins of this sight have every right to restrict any content that they find objectionable. I could care less if freedom of association offends you.

[IndianaGreen]

108. The Admins wanted to open up debate

but many DUers voted against it. But that's not the point since we are not discussing DU, what we are discussing is how the leading candidate for the Presidential nomination has sacrificed our civil liberties on the altar of political expediency.

[MrBenchley]

98. And gun ownership is not in the Bill of Rights

despite the NRA's lies, as the courts have affirmed again and again and again and again...

Here's two of the most recent...

"U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton dismissed the lawsuit in which the plaintiffs argued that the 28-year-old law violated their Second Amendment right to own guns. The D.C. law prohibits ownership or possession of handguns and requires that others, such as shotguns, be kept unloaded, disassembled or equipped with trigger locks.
Walton ruled that the Second Amendment is not a broad-based right of gun ownership.
"The Second Amendment does not confer an individual a right to possess firearms. Rather, the Amendment's objective is to ensure the vitality of state militias," Walton wrote. "

http://us.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/15/gun.law.ap/

"A federal appeals court in San Francisco on Thursday found that individual citizens do not have a constitutional right to own a firearm, cutting to the core of the modern debate over gun control and repudiating the gun lobby's most cherished legal argument.
Weighing California's attempt to regulate rapid-fire assault weapons against a legal right established in the days of musket fire, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals jumped into the increasingly heated legal debate over the true intent of the Second Amendment's protection of a right to bear arms."

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/4679253.htm

The only court that ever has even pretended otherwise is the far right wing fifth circuit...which just added cross-burning Charlie Pickering. The only way the Supreme Court is going to side with the Fifth is if it gets packed with another crooked piece of shit like Scalia. But the odds are good a Democratic president is going to pick a moderate or liberal justice..

"after 9/11 some people were calling for rounding up and putting all Muslims in concentration camps"
And the guy who set up Gitmo and started "preventitive detention" was NRA life member John AshKKKroft. Nice playmate the gun nuts have.

[Sandpiper]

105. There's nothing in the case law record

That validates the NRA's view of the second amendment. That doesn't stop them from their campaign of disinformation though.

[MrBenchley]

111. Exactly so....

Worth noting that the NRA is quick to sue on other grounds but stays out of court on Second Amendment grounds...although if what they say was even remotely true, they could have every gun control law in the country struck down in a heartbeat.

Way back in the early 60's late 70s or thereabouts, one of their local chapters sued on Second Amendment grounds in a district court...and they won't make that mistake again.

[IndianaGreen]

109. Separation of Church and State and right to privacy is not in the B of R

The right to bear arms is a right of the people, not government!

[Sandpiper]

112. Not in those exact words no

Separation of church and state come from the establishment clause.

Right to privacy comes from the fourth amendment.

The right to bear arms is a right of the people

Yes it is. In the context of the well regulated militia that the first half of it stipulates.

If they intended it to ensure an absolute individual right, they could have just as easily said:

Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

They used such language with freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and the right of the people to assemble. It wasn't a mistake or oversight that they didn't use similar language in the Second Amendment.

[MrBenchley]

114. For that matter

the Massachusetts convention that met to ratify or reject the Constitution and the Bill of Rights during the winter of 1787/1788 considered changing the Second to reflect individual ownership. The quote in favor of that is often served up by gun nuts.

What the gun nuts NEVER mention is that the convention then voted to reject that interpretation....and that in none of the other 13 colonies did the issue even surface.

[MrBenchley]

113. Says who? Robert Bork? John AshKKKroft?

The right to bear arms in a well-regulated militia for the defense of a free state is in the Bill of Rights.. Carrying around a pistol in your pocket because you've got Chuck Norris fantasies is not.

[IndianaGreen]

115. The people are the militia

The National Guard is NOT the militia!

[MrBenchley]

121. Nope....

"1907.11.15 Land forces of Massachusetts Volunteer Militia redesignated Massachusetts National Guard"

http://www.regiments.org/milhist/na-usa/militia/north/ma-mx.htm

[MrBenchley]

75. Voted NO on loosening license & background checks

<sarcasm>Yeah, we're really talking about a tyrant there.....</sarcasm>

[IndianaGreen]

78. Kerry does not understand or cares about the Bill of Rights

This is why he was so willing and eager to vote for PATRIOT Act. Had Kerry understood or cared about the Bill of Rights, he would not had voted for PATRIOT, and now he would be calling for its outright repeal.

Since Kerry neither understands or cares about the Bill of Rights, it is not surprising that he can make idiotic statements about gun rights such as this one:

"Who's been fighting for the progressive values of the Democratic Party? I have been fighting for the principle of a ban on assault weapons. He has not. It is a difference between us," said the Massachusetts senator.

"I have been a prosecutor, I am a hunter, I have hunted since age 12 -- but I don't hunt with assault weapons," Kerry added.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/147249_joel07.html

The Second Amendment did not give the federal government a role in regulating the militia (the citizenry that could be called to defend the States), a role that was reserved to the states. The Constitution also put a restriction on the states that their power to regulate the militia did not give the States the power to infringe on the right to bear arms. The Constitution did not bother to put limits on the sort of arms citizens could have. There is nothing about pistols or muskets! Clearly the Framers felt that the people were entitled to arm themselves and that this right was a guarantee against tyranny.

Kerry misses the entire point of the Second Amendment, as he missed the point of having a Bill of Rights!

Kerry will not roll back the powers the federal government has taken upon itself since 9/11. Kerry will not do away with PATRIOT or with "First Amendment Zones."

Kerry says that he will replace John Ashcroft, but Kerry will not replace Ashcroft's policies, or the dictatorial laws that Congress has passed since 9/11.

Kerry's only promise is that he will change personnel, but Kerry will not change policy.

[funkyflathead]

79. Still a Washington Insider

Yep all those elitists are alike- no matter what party.

It doesn't take a friggin genius to see why the SA was put in place.

Dictator GW Bush anyone?????

[Freddie Stubbs]

103. Paul Wellstone must not have understood or cared about the Bill of Rights

He voted for the Patriot Act also.

[IndianaGreen]

110. And he was wrong!

If Wellstone were alive would he have repented of his PATRIOT vote? Would he have called for the repeal of PATRIOT?

Would Wellstone have voted for IWR?

[arewethereyet]

80. to answer your question, no

just another reason he's writing off the south and better get some veep help in risky areas.