Nancy Pelosi Rejects San Francisco Board of Supes Resolution to Impeach

[radio4progressives]

In a press conference broadcast on C-Span just a while ago, a reporter asks if she (Pelosi) supports the San Francisco Board of Supervisors Resolution to Impeach George W.

Astonishingly, she flat out dismissed SF Board of Supervisors resolutions and said simply that "Elections have Consequences" - 'if you don't like who is in power then vote to elect them out' (paraphrasing).

This was said after suggesting that if she paid attention to the resolutions of the San Francisco City Council/Board of Supes - she wouldn't be able to get anything done in Washington, after acknowledging that San Francisco was her constituents.

Discuss..


edited to correct subject title - City Council and Board of Supes is one and the same in SF...

[Vincardog]

1. What exactly is she getting done now?

[laruemtt]

2. another lame ass dem -

:kick: her and the rest of the gutless wonders out!

[TankLV]

93. Another useless, spineless, posturing, fingerintheair democratic "leader".

And we should vote for these asswipes again, why?

It's things like this that NEGATES ANY PRECIOUS FEW GOOD THINGS THEY EVER DO.

[MadMaddie]

3. Ummmm....the impeachment process against Clinton...

was for a BJ.

Crimes against this country have been committed by the * cabal and can be proven.

She bascially turned her back on her constituents...."Elections have Consequences" you bet they do...vote her out and replace her with a Dem that will do what the constituents want...

Is she able to get anything done now with the Republican controlled government....?

[dubyaD40web]

6. True.

BUT, this is a big election year. If we retake Congress, you'll see an impeachment.

If they were to start right now, the repukes could use that against us. They'll say the "liberal agenda" is to win Congress and impeach * for revenge of Bubba. That won't work in our favor.

[TankLV]

94. Mark my words: IF we retake congress, they will find many excuses

to avoid doing anything about impeachment.

What Pelosi has done is a microcism of the climate we will find ourselves in IF the dems should retake congress.

They will "have more important things to do" or "that was old news" krap.

Mark my words.

[radio4progressives]

111. we're hearing the prelude now...

totally agree.. and everyone here is going to jump on that bandwagon too.. mark my words... you can take it to the bank..

all the naysayers, those that say we have to wait until after the elections and we retake Congress... we can't put the country through such a terrible turmoil blah blah blah blah blah...

dollars to donuts... this is all but the prelude.

[FreedomAngel82]

121. And we have to make them work for us

They work for us and we have to keep reminding them that. Cut off their funds etc.

[radio4progressives]

7. Bush's ratings have hit the skids so low that's it's actually insane

to reject impeachment at this point in the game.. even the repukes understand this and would have to go along if only the freaking dems would move the process along..

[radio4progressives]

4. here's link to article on SF Board of Supes asking Lawmakers to Imeach

S.F. supervisors ask lawmakers to impeach Bush


San Francisco's supervisors jumped into national politics Tuesday, passing a resolution asking the city's Democratic congressional delegation to seek the impeachment of President Bush for failing to perform his duties by leading the country into war in Iraq, eroding civil liberties and engaging in other activities the board sees as transgressions.

The supervisors, in voting 7-3 for the resolution, ensured that San Francisco again will become grist for radio and TV talk shows. The city has appeared in the national media spotlight recently for voters' passage in November of a nonbinding measure banning military recruiters from public high schools and for Supervisor Gerardo Sandoval's recent comment on a Fox News show that the United States doesn't need a military.

Supervisor Chris Daly, one of the most progressive members of the board, sponsored the resolution, which also calls for the impeachment of Vice President Dick Cheney. Daly said the measure is justified in light of the administration's case for and handling of the war in Iraq, the federal government's inadequate response to Hurricane Katrina and recent revelations about a domestic wiretapping program.


cont..
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/01/IMPEACH.TMP

[rinsd]

11. Key quote:

""I think the case is clear, and I think it's appropriate for us to weigh in," Daly said. "

Translation: I want to run for higher office.

[lyonn]

27. In that case Daly must think impeachment is a winning issue

[rinsd]

38. In San Fran, it could be.

[radio4progressives]

65. you betcha sweet bippy it could be..

i live an hour's north of the city and don't know all of the SF politics, especially wrt the board of supes - but i do think this young lad has something special going for him... and i wouldn't mind it all if somehow he managed to run and win against Pelosi (won't happen in 06, i don't think)

http://www.mistersf.com/sanfran/index.html?sanfrandaly.htm

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

74. Unfortunately, he's a fucking nutjob.

Useless, grandstanding nutjob. Contributes nothing of value to the board. I had to put up with his inane rantings for several years. Basically, resolutions like this are what he spends most of his time on.

[glitch]

5. Elections have consequences... So, when did we have an election?

I am assuming an election would have to be legitimate to be called an election.
When the votes aren't truly counted, can it be called an election?

[radio4progressives]

9. Pelosi and Others are on a "Total Denial Program"

It is indeed insulting to our intelligence, and to our sensebilities..

It is an insult to democracy as it is to her own constituents.

Shame on her and the Elite Ruling Class who are there to protect the status quo of fascism.

Shame on them.

[rinsd]

24. Total Denial Program

Oh I think there's a program and its not be subscribed to by the Pelosi.

"It is an insult to democracy as it is to her own constituents"

Democracy? 85 to 12 in her last election.

Here's her voting record, http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=H0222103

Add to that because of her position of power, her constituents are large beneficiaries of government funding.

But you're pissed because at the most liberal woman in Congress because she brushed off a meaningless resoultion from a grandstanding city council? Are you actually a Democrat?

[radio4progressives]

28. Most Democrats Such as Myself and MILLIONS Others are AGAINST THIS WAR

"Meaningless Resolution"? "Grandstanding" ?

Wow! Pro-War Monger Alert!

[rinsd]

36. Nancy Pelosi is against the war....

what the hell are you talking about?

:shrug:

[radio4progressives]

39. Responding to this statement:

But you're pissed because at the most liberal woman in Congress because she brushed off a meaningless resoultion from a grandstanding city council? Are you actually a Democrat?

Yes, Nancy Pelosi voted against the authorization to go to war, but she refuses, absolutely refuses to come out and say so in public, press conferences, interviews, or on the floor of the house or even townhall meetings.

It's the stupid, irresponsible "stay the course" rhetoric - and people are DYING every goddam day.

[rinsd]

50. Sigh....

Pelosi was asked for her comments on a non-bind resolution from the San Fran Board of Supes. She stated the importance of Democratic majorities vs. fury and noise that accomplish nothing. I happen to agree with her.

I suppose Gavin Newsome is a horrible person who shluld be called a collaborator if you feel that way about Pelosi.


"It's probably going to shatter the status quo in this country when it passes," Newsom joked. "I imagine, immediately, Congress will probably convene into session and begin impeachment proceedings."

Why does Gavin Newsome hate the "people" :sarcasm:

[Clark2008]

85. Way OT - but I love the name "Gavin."

Guess that's why I married one. :)

[Zodiak]

99. Pelosi is not the most liberal Congresswoman.

Cynthia McKinney is. Or Tubbs Jones. Pelosi is okay, but not the most liberal. Please just stick with the facts when you accuse another of not being a Democrat.

[NoPasaran]

8. Good for her

Nancy Pelosi apparently can count, unlike this bunch of grandstanding hotheads in San Francisco. Unless and until there are Democratic majorities in the House ande the Senate, any idea of removing W from office is a deluded fantasy.

I also cannot understand why people are so anxious to bring about the Cheney Presidency.

[rinsd]

10. I don't know if I would go that far...

...but a county Board of Supervisors should stick to the county business and leave aside meaningless resolutions.

Now I can understand people want the publicity generated for their cause but its still a shitty use of government in my opinion.

[radio4progressives]

13. just so you know.. California State Legislatures passed similar resolution

a few weeks ago.

And further more, what's going on in Washington happens to impact locally, whether we're talking about municipalities or individual citizens.

c'mon..

[rinsd]

18. Do you have a link for that?

I haven't heard of ANY state legislature doing so.

[radio4progressives]

20. I think i posted it on DU - it;s been several weeks.. i'll check n/t

[radio4progressives]

12. Are you serious?

There have been Resolutions made all over this country and California State Legislatures passed a resolution calling on the members of the House of Representatives to invoke articles of Impeachment on the House Floor. This was passed several weeks ago. She not only is ignoring her own constituents, she's ignoring the will of the California State Legislatures!

Counting heads? there are heads that will be counted alright. and it isn't just "hotheads" in San Francisco, as i point out in the first paragraph.

as far as Cheney is concerned, in the process of impeaching W.. Cheney would be indicted, prosecuted and at the minimum forced to resign as was Agnew, or hopefully prosecuted and convicted..

so please..we have a precedent to deal with these bastards and this administration goes beyond the very worst that Nixon and Agnew were guilty of.

[NoPasaran]

16. Yap yap yap yap

Leaving aside the mathematical improbability (only a majority of the US House of Reps can impeach and then only 2/3 of the Senate can remove from office; all the resolutions passed by state legislatures, city councils, and associations of dog catchers count for ZERO), what evidence is there that Bush impeachment would equal Cheney impeachment? You might recall that Agnew's resignation had NOTHING to do with Watergate and happened about a year before Nixon's... allowing him to appoint Ford to the vice presidency, probably with the understanding that a full pardon was in the offing.

So once again, good for Nancy Pelosi! If California's elected hotheads are so anxious to get idiots out of office, maybe they should start with that meathead governor.

[radio4progressives]

19. thanks for reminding DU members that we the people account for ZERO..

in fact I think it would be very elucidating for all citizens to be reminded once again, that we do not have a democracy and haven't in quite some time.

That the tenets of "We the People" are impossibly utopic, perhaps even quixotic -and the sooner Americans understand that we live in a fascists state, and that we should simply get used to it. or leave it.

That whatever "We the People want and expect from our government matters naught, is insigifnicant and pointless to demand/request or even beg from the ruling class - ours is not their interests, and their's is not our interests.

Please do write an essay and post it here on DU - I'll promise not disrupt or berate you with insults as you have just done here.

edited to correct hyperbolic reference

[NoPasaran]

26. Thanks for reminding us why a republic is preferrable

To mob rule.

[High Plains]

33. What the fuck?

The votes of elected bodies all across the land is "mob rule"?

Gee, I guess us plebes better just shut up and let you smart people run things without any of that messy democratic interference.

[SYNERCHOSIS]

17. I think it would be reasonable to assume that if

bush is impeached then cheney would be as well. If the dems take the house in 06 then that would mean Pelosi would be president. I can understand how she would want to appear impartial to impeachment at this point however for people like me I want to hear that dems have a plan to correct the countless problems this administration has created. The only way to get that done is impeaching BOTH bush and cheney. I fear that jan 07 might be too late, by jan 09 we might not be here anymore!

[Mr_Spock]

97. I tend to agree - Cheney is scary and Bush's mental illness is good

and he will only get worse over time. Leave the evil we know - we know how to defeat him.

[Ken Burch]

122. self delete

[riona]

14. elected officials in dc open your ears

believe it or not, you are there to listen to your constituents. is there something that job description you don't understand? you would do well to remember that the "exclusive club" you belong to does not come with a lifetime membership guarantee.

[radio4progressives]

15. apparently the exclusive club does guarantee a lifetime membership

there's not a single Dem contending Pelosi's seat for '06 - naturally, she has political tentacles everywhere.. she can ignore her constituents on a 24/7 365 basis and still have no problem keeping her seat whatsoever.

[rinsd]

21. Nancy Pelosi's numbers....

85 to 12 in her last election (2004). I can;t find current approval rating but I am sure they are good.

"believe it or not, you are there to listen to your constituents"

Where is she ignoring her constiutents? Did she ignore them wheh she supported troop withdraw? When she started the culture of corruption meme? When? Because she knows about this little planet we have called reality. Where its easy for a city council or board of supes to vote on a non-binding resolutions but getting started with a resolution for impeachment in the current environment as the minority power in a country that is simultaneously divided and weary of partisanship is near impossible. She states exactly the path to impeachment through Democratic majorites. They can't do shit now.

It's Nancy Pelosi for crissakes.

Compare that to Dianne Feinstein who is villified as a warmonger DINO on this board. Her approval rating in CA is going UP. In San Francisco her inclined to rel-elect numbers are higher than anywhere else in the state.

I think both of these women are listening to their constituents, Pelosi even more so. I think DUers sometimes act like spoiled children when a pol doesn't say what they want to hear or vote the way they want on a particular issue ignoring that pol's overall work.

[MrBenchley]

25. You will notice that nearly every Democrat who comes under attack

is up for election/re-election in 2006, and beating his or her prospective Republican opponent like a rented mule.

[Clark2008]

86. And I'm going to tell you AGAIN that this is not accurate.

Harold Ford Jr. comes under attack a lot on this board - and, while I'll vote for him, he's still NOT beating his Republican challengers for US Senate like a rented mule.

[ClassWarrior]

22. Roll up yer sleeves folks, I guess we gotta work harder...

We've been making progress, but we have a long way to go, as this thread proves.

16+5=2006

NGU.

[radio4progressives]

29. Apparently if you're anti-war, you're grandstanding and not a Democrat!

according to a few posts in this thread. Wow! amazing.

[ClassWarrior]

30. I don't know about that. I was referring to the original subject.

16+5=2006

NGU.

[radio4progressives]

34. sorry i responded to the wrong post my bad.. n/t

[TankLV]

95. Yes amazing, and very telling.

Sad, very sad...

[Burning Water]

23. I discussed my opinion

of what the SF supervisors did on this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=549531&mesg_id=549766

and I see no reason to change my mind. My opinion of Nancy Pelosi having an official opinion is the same. She's not a Congresswoman. Until the House acts to impeach, there is nothing in her duties that necessitates an opinion about impeachment.

Now, if she wishes to speak as a private citizen, or as a Democratic leader, she's certainly entitled to, as are the SF supervisors, but it is not the function of city governments to call for such actions, and I think they should refrain.

[ieoeja]

31. She is a congressman. n/t

[Burning Water]

37. delete

[radio4progressives]

42. Pelosi is a Congress Woman, she is the Minority Whip she is NOT a SENATOR

LOL!

[Burning Water]

45. You know what, you're right.

I was reading Pelosi and thinking Feinstein. My apologies.

[radio4progressives]

48. gotcha.... but they're in the same club (grin) n/t

[rinsd]

56. She is the Minority LEADER

The Minority Whip is Steny Hoyer.

http://democraticwhip.house.gov/

[radio4progressives]

58. right.. my bad..

[radio4progressives]

32. and i just responded.

The function of city governments have a duty and an obligation to it's citizens to be the voice of their citizens when lawmakers in Washington ignore their constituents.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=549531&mesg_id=559419

[Disturbed]

41. Didn't Vermont pass an Impeachment Resolution, also?

I feel that the more the better. btw VP Cheney is also included for Impeachment.

Pelosi should be replaced. I feel that she is a weak leader.

[radio4progressives]

43. All over the country, in fact so did the California State Legislatures

And .. State Legislature calling for Impeachment Hearings.

[Burning Water]

47. Yet none of them have

any power to impeach. They're spinning their wheels. And interfering in responsibilities that are not theirs.

[radio4progressives]

49. True.. but they give weight to what the State Legislatures have called for

Every City Council Resolution adds to the body of weight (in terms of the will of the citizens) which goes towards decision process and resolutions that State Legislatures base their decisions -

and in the case of calling for impeachment (as it turns out) State Legislatures have the legal authority to demand that their United States Congress Members to invoke articles of impeachment on the floor of the House of Representatives, whether that is the Congress Member's personal position or not.

This matter has been cooking behind the scenes all over the country for several weeks now, and supposedly "the race was on" as to who will be first to do it. It turns out that even members of U.S. Territories can call on their Representatives to do this. It was thought that California would be first, but the DLC has interferred with this - and Nancy Pelosi is taking her orders from the DLC instead of her constituents - and that's the shame and sham in all of this.

[rinsd]

52. Again. do you have a link?

I've goggled various combinations and I find NO state legislatures have passed anything. There are a city councils measures. There are petitions and movements underway but nothing has been passed by any state legislature.

[radio4progressives]

54. hmm.. slipped my mind, i know i have it in print somewhere..

maybe i can locate the on line source...

[radio4progressives]

59. Corrigendum Erratum!!!

Mea Culpa! It Passed the California State Assembly and is Moving in the State Legistlature...

It's been over a month, i thought it had been done by now..

Guess it's being held up per party leaders... (?)

[rinsd]

53. Not the state, a town in Vermont

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0205-04.htm

Here's an article asking Howard Dean to put his muscle behind a push fro the Vermont legislature to vote on it.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_carol_wo_060216_a_concrete_step_towa.htm

[radio4progressives]

55. gotcha.. i wonder what will become of it..

hmm..

[MrBenchley]

61. So why hasn't Bernie Sanders signed on to the Conyers resolution, hmmmm?

Of course, since he's not a Democrat, he's immune from criticism from the lefty left on here...although Pelosi is singled out for not endorsing futility.

[TankLV]

96. Yep - and more and more are comming on board all the time.

When it's only the first few, we're always getting marginalized.

So far, threats of "vote for dems or else" followed by some smarmy comments or expletives always makes me wanna vote for vichy dems, and make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it have the same effect on you?

Now, Nancy may have lately been doing a few good things, much to my pleasant surprise, but then she and others like her go and do/say things like in this thread and cause us to pull back and say "hmmmm".

And she has also been among the ones starting to make noises as an actual opposition...

[Burning Water]

44. If they want to call

for his impeachment as private and individual citizens, I'm all for that.

But they shouldn't be doing using their corporate office to speak for all of SF on this issue. It is simply no business of the states as states, the counties as counties, or the cities as cities, to enter into this issue.

As I said, it makes them look like fools, because they are interfering where they have no business.

[radio4progressives]

51. I couldn't disagree more..

but i've stated as much in above postings.. I'm astounded that anyone would take this view - and as far as "looking like fools" - i frankly don't understand that pov at all.

[Burning Water]

60. Then you might want to think about it.

There are several reasons to take that pov. I won't describe mine, but think of this. Until the Dems have Congress, there will be no impeachment. Screaming for it now takes energy and resources from the fight to regain Congress.

Dems have no power right now, because, for one reason or another, they have neglected to win elections lately. (One of those reasons might have been election fraud, but they still lost because they are not in office. Moral victories don't count. "Close" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades).

Remember your school yard days? Remember the scrawny little kid that didn't get his turn at bat? Remember how he cried in the school yard? Did that kid ever win class president?

That's a major objection.

[radio4progressives]

62. we live in different universes.. ..

the universe i live in has a despot with his minions illegally occupying the seat of power - with his incompentent and ignorant fingers on the button of a potential nuclear disaster of biblical proportions - which apparently he is intent in showing this muscular might at any given moment just to boost his numbers and show what strong leader he really is.

short of that he has engaged in activites utterly against the doctrines of our founding fathers over and over and over again. I can see it's a waste of time enumerating the list of treasonous crimes he and his administration has committed, not to mention his utter incompetence, and there is a severe lack of confidence by the American people showing in the polls as I write this.

In my universe, this is the time to proceed, but then we have another election to lose to fraud and engineering first that we must throw money, time and energy at - just to show the people that somehow there elections matter in this country. :rofl: In my universe, Diebold, ESS Sequoia et al has shown us all that elections are to be engineered by the Corporations who count the votes! (It's who ever they want in office at any given time).

[Burning Water]

69. Then in your universe there

is nothing that can be done. Bush won't be impeached by Republicans. Democrats can't win because of election fraud. The next Republican President will preemptively pardon Bush and all his cronies. America is lost!!! Woe is us. What the Hell are you laughing about?

Now in my universe, elections can still be won. Even with cheating by the other side. And I'm a pessimist by nature. You must be in the very depths of despair.

[radio4progressives]

79. Fluid - the Depths of Deep Concern to Depths of Despair

Some moments are more hopeful than others.. then i read or hear the voices of people who do not see where we are as nation and how far down the wrong track we've gone.. usually from people who have not (yet) experienced the impact of the policies put into place by those in Washington, and are continuing the same path, with no apparent plan or intention to stop it.

Novemember would ordinarly be around the corner in normal election cycles -but it's a lot of time to do a great deal more harm to our people and the nations the world over - between now and a year from now by the time people are sworn into office, orientation and reshuffling of the chairs, and that's only if the Democratic Party manged to get control of Diebold, ESS & Seqoia, and the vote count tabulators.

Additionally, anyone paying the slightest attention on the 2004 election process knows that Kerry won the elections but was cheated by the tabulators vis a vis Republican party Loyalists who own the machines.

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1070

http://www.bradblog.com/
http://www.votersunite.org/

and have a listen to Thom Hartmann:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/

Yesterday he was filling in for Sam Seder on AAR's Majority Report and talked about a new report from Fritakis and Wasserman about the Ohio Count - i can't find the link right now - but perhaps Thom will talk about it again today - Kerry was cheated out of over 300,000 votes in Ohio - which is significant..

and finally go here to read the National Commission on the Voting Rights Act Report of the 2004 elections.. there are mountains of reports that will blow your mind - and if none of that gives you pause about the state of our "democracy" and our democratic process (elections) then, i just don't know what on earth will, and there's not much else left to discuss, which only brings me to further despair.

http://www.votingrightsact.org/

[Burning Water]

84. I'm not arguing with you about

whether or not the last 3 elections were stolen. That's in the past, now, and irrelevant except that we should learn from it and keep it from happening again.

There has been some progress made, but not enough. And I think that there are other problems with the Democratic Party besides the Repukes can steal elections. They, for instance, seem to have a hard time getting together on an issue. They seem much less likely to settle for the "lesser" of two evils and vote for a a moderate Dem than Repukes are to vote for anybody who wears an 'R'. I could go on and on.

But here's the thing. Your wirting style seems a little "dreamy" to me. I don't know what that says about you as a person, whether you're a go-getter or a drop-out. But I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that you are laid back. That you are the type that likes to express their o pinions (and don't we all?), and assume the beauty and logic of your argument, and the solid reality of your facts are going to convince people of the Truth.

But the world doesn't work like that. YOu have to go out there and convince people, not necessarily to adopt your ideals as their own, but to vote for the candidate that best matches your ideas and has a chance to win. Even if that candidate is a lousy one.

If we are going to turn America into the force for good that we want it to be, we can't do it all at once. It has to be done a piece at a time.

[radio4progressives]

90. Think Katrina, Torture, Iraq, Domestic Spying, Detention Centers & so on..

I'm not arguing with you about whether or not the last 3 elections were stolen. That's in the past, now, and irrelevant except that we should learn from it and keep it from happening again.

The stolen elections are certainly in the past, but i would hardly consider it irrelevant in very real terms - if "elections have consequences" so mostly certainly do Stolen Elections, if not far more consequential significance! And what we have learned to keep it from happening again? It's hard to say, if elected officials, and the media refuse to acknowledge what did occur. And NO significant effort to avoid it from happening again!

There has been some progress made, but not enough. And I think that there are other problems with the Democratic Party besides the Repukes can steal elections. They, for instance, seem to have a hard time getting together on an issue.

Here I am in full agreement..

They seem much less likely to settle for the "lesser" of two evils and vote for a a moderate Dem than Repukes are to vote for anybody who wears an 'R'. I could go on and on.

I think i'm unclear on your point.. are you arguing on merits of "lesser" of two evils?

But here's the thing. Your wirting style seems a little "dreamy" to me.

Dreamy? How about as in Night-Mares?


I don't know what that says about you as a person, whether you're a go-getter or a drop-out. But I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that you are laid back. That you are the type that likes to express their o pinions (and don't we all?), and assume the beauty and logic of your argument, and the solid reality of your facts are going to convince people of the Truth.

Well, now if this isn't a few points of condenscension, i don't know what is! If simply expressing opinions is the full extent of activities, i at least should be getting paid for it. So maybe I'm not enough of a "real go getter" in that respect. I do not consider myself a talented enough writer to entertain such fantasies - the "solid reality of facts" are key to what is at issue - but I'm hardly among the pool of wonderfully talented writers who have, in fact, written and spoken voluminously on issues which I try to advance in my limited capacity.

But the world doesn't work like that. YOu have to go out there and convince people, not necessarily to adopt your ideals as their own, but to vote for the candidate that best matches your ideas and has a chance to win. Even if that candidate is a lousy one.

Wow! As an activist that have worked on behalf political campaigns, i'm hardly in need of this patronizing advice, i prefer to work for good candidates rather than "lousy" ones..

If we are going to turn America into the force for good that we want it to be, we can't do it all at once. It has to be done a piece at a time.

As someone who grew up in the fifites and sixties, and watched all of my greatest heroes assasinated and taken out, one by one, by the very people who are in power now, and watched year after election year - this country taken down by the PTB while those in position to prevent it from going in this direction, sat on their hands with duck tapes on their mouths, or listened to mouths filled with marbles, and someone who counted on leadership to repair the damage done "one piece at a time", when we are talking about mountains of broken pieces, this strikes me as somewhat naive, if one is take into account the vastness of the destruction that has been wreaked upon us. Think of it as the Katrina State of the Union.

Yes,of course it's one piece at a time, but in very short order. There are dead bodies still to be buried, and others to be accounted for. there are houses on top of flipped trucks. and there is the mold. there are the homelessness, and there is another hurricane season ahead.

and then there is the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty and agreements being violated by this sociopathic monster and his minions, but never mind, none of these issues are that important.

[Burning Water]

91. Sorry if you

think I was patronizing you. That was not my intent.

However, I think my point stands: Whether or not Bush & the Repukes stole the last 3 elections is irrelevant.

Not in the sense that things wouldn't have been different if Gore or Kerry was in office, no. Of course they would have.

Not in the sense that that stealing elections is immoral, illegal, and who knows, maybe fattening, no. Of course they are wrong and should be punished to the full extent of the law.

But in the sense that they are in office, and are able to legally and in reality exercise the powers of that office.

That's just a fact, one so many people seem to want to ignore. But it can't be ignored; it sits there like a wart on your nose.

"Impeach, impeach, impeach" is the cry. Good enough. I agree. But first elections must be won. Is crying "impeachment" constantly going to influence the swing voters that are desperately needed in a positive or a negative way? IMO, a negative way.

Get the Congress-critters first, then make the attempt. Why did the Romans so consistently beat the "barbarians"? Because they were soldiers rather than warriors. They were more concerned with winning than glory, although they did not despise glory. Carrying this metaphor forward, in the current situation, Repukes are the soldiers; Democrats the warriors. They may be fighting for their freedom, but the Rs are fighting to win. Did the Romans consider it "cheating" if they led the barbarians into an ambush? I don't think so.

OK. The "relevant" thing is that the Rs are in power and the Ds are not. The "relevant' thing is: Can we win in 2006. Everything, EVERYTHING, else is distraction.

[radio4progressives]

101. "Who Ever Counts the Votes Wins"

That's your definition of Legal. Ok. Fine.

What's the point of voting at all?

Oh.. that's right, gotta have an actual product to flip which ever direction the creature behind the curtain intends to go, after all can't just make it up out of thin air, or.. rather cyber space!

oky doky....

[Burning Water]

112. My definition of legal?

My definition doesn't count. The Supreme Court, now there is a group whose opinion of legal counts.

But maybe you mean "moral"? or "legitimate"?

But do you really think words are going to cause Bush and company to step down?

The problem, as I see it, is that so many people seem to think that what OUGHT to be MUST be. Nonsense. The world moves along as it will despite how many people cry to the Heavens about the injustice of it all. You have to get out there and work for what you want. Nobody's going to give it to you.

Bush is in office. That's a fact. A republican congress is not going to impeach him. That's a fact. There's an election this year. That's a fact.

But the Dems aren't going to win it by wishing. So maybe the elections need to be cleaned up? Good, what is being done? Maybe they need to register more voters? Good, what is being done?


Calls for impeachment is what is being done. Is that going to get the election won? If so, let's go. IMO, however, it only solidifies Bush's support. I could be wrong on this one, if enough people are convinced that he deserves impeachment. I know the polls show his approval down, but it is a LONG time from the election. Hey, the best strategy on Earth isn't going to win if you don't have the resources to pull it off.

[radio4progressives]

113. For the Second Time, Your Dismissive, Patronizing &Condenscending Remarks

are deeply offensive, putting it politely. Preaching to someone about "what must be done" to someone who does all those things, in the street & door to door, stuffing envelopes, canvasing telephone calls goes to meetings - attends Town Hall meetings - etc.

you know where you stick it.

when the system is rigged, when elections are stolen, and people like you preach about "reality" on the ground, insist that we must not voice our outrage, preach that we just need to work harder...

this offense deserves words in your face and in your ear that you have apparently not been confronted with yet.

[Burning Water]

115. Well,

take your best shot.

But you seem to personalize everything. For all I know, you are the hardest worker in the Democratic Party, or in progressive causes world-wide. There was no personal insult intended.

Voice your outrage all you want, but I highly doubt that it will influence even one person who is not already on board. You're preaching to the choir, but I am not a cheerleader. "outrage" is an emotion, not an intellectual argument. Such as it is, I prefer to think with my brain, rather than with either my guts or my balls, or even my heart.

I guess that I have about as much right to express my views of what should be done as you do. Time will tell if I or you were correct in their analysis of the situation, and what is required to correct it.

Still, as long as I have your ear, I'd like to put in a plug for Clark in 2008.

[radio4progressives]

118. Here is the long awaited, well articulated Answer to the Question.

We all know what needs to happen, but we seem at a loss for "how to make (it) so."

(snip)

So is most important "how do we proceed?" No, MOST important is "what do we do about it right now!"

(snip)

Get violent. (Come again?!?) No, not physically violent. Rather intellectually, politically, and rhetorically violent.

We are dealing with fascist thugs/cowards and must deal with them and their tactics accordingly. The public and euphemedia must be slapped to attention and our "leaders" and/or the perpetrators must be forced and/or frightened into action and/or surrender.

This violence is in self-defense. These people don't listen to reason. In fact, they pride themselves on their preference for "belief." Labels like theocracy, monarchy, totalitarian, and authoritarian are irrelevant -- it's all some form of fascism; the conviction that some minority has a right to rule the majority. Whether it's based on divine right, a master race, a family dynasty, or a power theory makes absolutely no difference.

(snip)

full text and discussion cont here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2493764&mesg_id=2493764

[Burning Water]

120. Thank you. Very interesting thread.

I especially like this comment

We need to banish euphemisms.

So following that advice I will be blunt. This is a sure fire way to electoral defeat. Do you think that the American people will, to take just one example, ever, ever, ever, consent to turn over American officials to international bodies?? 'Cause really, I don't think so.

But. I could be wrong. So if this floats your balloon, go for it. I would far rather regain Congress and just obstruct Bush for the rest of his term than try for a very long-shot home-run and strike out completely. Still, that's just strategy and tactics. The goal is the same for both of us.

[zulchzulu]

35. It's easy for the SF Supes to demand impeachment...

While I think Pelosi should come out and demand Chimpy's impeachment, she still has to show up in DC and do the Dance of Moderation...you know she wants his ass out of office, but there is a balancing act.

I'm surprised it took the SF Supes THIS LONG to put up the impeachment resolution actually... they should be into demanding the drawing and quartering of Bush and Cheney on the White House lawn by now.

:spank:

As for Pelosi, don't forget her quotes about Chimpy:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/07.html

"Oblivious, in denial, dangerous"

[radio4progressives]

46. Actually, I'm with You.. on how long it's taken for San Francisco to do

this. I think (if memory serves) the city of Arcada (northern California)was the very first to come out with Resolutions, and so was a little town from me called Sebastopol which called for an end to the War and for Impeachment a long long time ago - but both these cities are almost 100% Green party, which of course that would have occured being that far more progressive and independent than our party. But I believe the city of Oakland did the same a while back - Barbara Lee is their Congresswoman.

[onenote]

76. did you ever find a link to the California state resolution

you cited in an earlier post?

onenote

[radio4progressives]

78. See post #59

[onenote]

81. thanks but still could use a link

I still could use a link. I want to point this out to someone I know in California, but I know they're going to demand proof. And I've googled and yahoo'd and even searched the California State Assembly website and I can't find any sign of an impeachment resolution being offered or approved at the state level.

onenote

[radio4progressives]

87. From January E-Board meeting to State Assembly supposedly moving...

through to State Legislature - I have the hard copy (print) but I don't have the on line link..

(It was reported to our local pda meeting by Democratic Committee members who were in attendence last month meeeting)

They took the issues of impeachment (Investigation of Inquiry) and a resolution to get Out of Iraq (don't know how that was worded)passed those along with the Clean Campaign Money resolution all in same meeting.

I received reports from others that there was of a bit of Top Down Party Leadership (Torres, Pelosi's daughter etc) railroading at the E-board meeting, wrt to submission of resolutions (with much stronger language) and voting procedures which sort of sounds like what's happening in Washington (by the repugs).

What I will do is look for the link on line that will get me to the specifics and post that sometime over the next few days..

[thinkingwoman]

40. elections have consequences...where have we heard that before?

Oh yeah, McCain said it.

Thanks Pelosi. Whose side are you on?

[paulk]

57. that horrible Nancy Pelosi!

what a repug lite tool she is!

let's run her out of office!

and elect a Green in her place!

-------------

:rofl:

[Bucky]

88. Is that Nancy Pelosi... or Eve Braun?

She's worse than Tojo! She's practically Adolf Eichmann to Bush's Milosevic!!

[thatsrightimirish]

63. Right when she retires

Expect Chris Daly to run. Washington will be CRAZY!!!

[Minnesota Libra]

64. She's got a point - don't just gripe and grumble.......

.....get out and vote in such high numbers that even the rethugs can't steal it from us. If we were to make a UNITED FRONT against the rethugs they couldn't stop us. So ask yourself a question, are you willing to unite behind a democratic team so we can beat Bush and his criminal bunch? Rethug lite is not an answer either - it's "YES" or "NO".

[radio4progressives]

66. This time, maybe we can buy off Diebold, Sequoia and ESS?

:shrug:

[Minnesota Libra]

67. There was a question needing an answer. nt

[mmonk]

68. I'm for impeaching anyone in the executive brance that breaks

the laws of the United States. Therefore I disagree with our Vichey dems.

[leesa]

70. Shame on her...but typical.

What will it take for these gutless wonders to consider this criminal/murderer impeachable? How many more have to die?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

73. How about a majority in the house and a supermajority in the senate?

That'd be a start.

[Doctor_J]

71. The last three election cycles haven't had consequences

we elected Gore, got Smirk instead. The people of Georgia elected Cleland, but Chambliss is sitting in his seat. And we elected Kerry, and got Smirk again.

[DrGonzoLives]

72. OMG PELOSI IS A DINO

GET HER IN THE PRIMARIES!!! DESTROY!!! DESTROY!!! DESTROY!!! </sarcasm>

[mmonk]

75. She's not a DINO.

Just another politician not willing to enforce the laws of the United States when it comes to the executive branch. We are not served without a willingness to fight to protect those laws concerning checks on abuse of power. It's no joke. It's a very real tragedy.

[Wordie]

77. I think the RW was trying to catch her...

...and that she wiggled out of the trap as best she could. If she, as Minority Leader, signed on at this point to an impeachment effort, her effectiveness would be jeopardized. I think the RW wants to draw her into the impeachment effort, knowing that if she prematurely endorsed it, that would become the story, rather than any of the other issues she wants to pursue.

I heard that interchange on C-Span yesterday, and from what I heard she neither supported or rejected the impeachment effort, but just attempted to deflect the question.

[radio4progressives]

80. I Concur with Wordie's Observations, and I tend to agree with Analysis..

I believe that Pelosi is trying to avoid the RW Mouse Trap Attack on the Impeachment angle as a "campaign" platform.. She deftly avoided that trap.

Having said that, there is a hue and cry for Impeachment, Conviction and Removal from office - that's an absolute certainty and it must not be dismissed blythley - that's not only insulting or demoralizing, it is worse. Blythley dismissing the grounds for impeachment to constituents that are demanding it - sends quite a different message, a message which suggests that no matter what harm is being done to our nation and the world, that for political purposes, they are willing to stand by and take no action - there is plenty of action that can be made regardless of the fact that they are in the minority and do not call the rules or chair the committees.

The deal is this, impeachment is not just about Bush bashing, revenge on Clinton and so on, this is about the SECURITY OF OUR NATION AND THE WORLD.

these people are psychopathic - evil monsters and they have their hand and fingers on the levers of WMD's, Nuclear Weapons - and it appears they're poised to use it, especially if they think they need to bring on another type of 9/11 event or worse - just to bring Bush back into the 90% ratings he had in 2001. Could be in the planning just before the November elections?

So politics are being played when lives are at stake (perhaps the entire planet)and that's the issue for me. And I belive that's how most folks see it - the wisdom of political gaming and strategizing around this is as cynical as it gets - all things considered.

[JohnWxy]

82. She could have been so much more frank and said:

I can appreciate how the Board feels. So many people feel this way about the morally corrupt administration we are saddled with today. But, we have to look at the harsh political reality here.

No matter how guilty George Bush is of violating public trust and his oath of office (promised to protect and defend the Constitution and our Civil Liberties) and of violation of constitutionally required checks and balances of Executive Branch (wire-tappping of phone conversations without getting easily obtained warrants), lieing to the Congress and the people about the validity of intelligence (developed by Cheney's zealots - not the CIA) which they had been advised was very dubious by the CIA and French and German intelligence officials) which they used to justify the invasion of IRac, - we have to face the reality that we could never get the Republican members of the HOuse to allow an impeachment proceedings. No matter what crimes and malfeasance of duties Mr. Bush is clearly guilty of (this is all a matter of established and documented fact, after all), the Republican members of the House would never allow us to go forward with impeachment proceedings.

Such is life under the totalitarian regime which persists in the Congress today.

[radio4progressives]

83. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

:applause: Exactly...

now will someone here, please (PLEASE)send JohnWxy's script to Nancy to MEMORIZE and respond thusly?

Please?

[TankLV]

98. Thank you.

Too often, they just don't think well on their feet.

Much too often.

[Mr_Spock]

100. That would have been much better

I guess she wasn't in the mood to flesh out her answer at this time. Perhaps there was some frustration & reverse psychology going on there - can't blame her either way since until the Repukes get on board we're stuck with Preznit dunce cap...

[radio4progressives]

102. good point...

[Bucky]

89. It sounds like she takes this impeachment thing seriously.

The bigggest problem the Republicans have is their tendency to cry wolf, to say anything so long as it gets them a few more votes at the moment. They are short term thinkers, not really operating above the pleasure principle in how they conduct public affairs. Please note that she did not categorically reject impeachment. She simply avoided falling into a sound-bite trap that might distract from achieving concrete objectives in government.

She made the right call. Any discussion of impeachment when the BJ-police still control congress is less than academic. Despite our intense dislike of the president, the mood in the country is not "ripe" for impeachment. Yet. Maybe we'll never get there. Pelosi played it cool and is keeping her options open. That's the difference between leadership and the screeching hy-sterics that Bob Barr and his ilk ginned up during the Lewinsky non-event.

[CarlSheeler4U]

92. Lead follow or get the hell out of the way!

About a month ago, I was the first US Senate candidate in the country to call on all patriotic Americans to support Congressman John Conyers (D-MI) in his efforts to bring impeachment of these executive misfits. We made cyberspace headlines.... and now.... it's yesterday's news.

I challenged our Congressmen Kennedy and Langevin to join his efforts. Two weeks after that I prepared articles of impeachment and called on the RI General Assembly to have a joint resolution sent to the US House floor, which would be expedited and immediately heard by rule of process...... and now.... it's yesterday's news.

Our beautiful billboard BE PATRIOTIC IMPEACH BUSH grabbed the hearts and hopes of thousands upon thousands of supporters....and you decide if it's important.... or it's yesterday's news.

If you want your Democracy back, if you want your America back... it's not a spectator sport.

We'll do the heavy lifting, but I need your help.

Blogs who help get the voice of everyday folks out are doing the public service that mainstream media is failing to do.

I'm committed to keeping our billboard up and letting people know we hear you and we care.

I'm asking people to do a small thing in support. Contact 10 people you know and ask them to do the same. This will eventually give us back our America.

Those wanting to help can do what many have done and send $20.06 with a commitment to share each month up to the elections.

It all helps keep our billboard up and the dream of a better America alive.

Carl Sheeler, US Senate
Democrat, not aristocrat
www.carlsheeler.com

Friends of Sheeler
592 Hopkins Hill Road
West Greenwich, RI 02817

[radio4progressives]

108. Excellent Website Carl!

and excellent message, sir! The best of Luck to You!

:applause::applause::applause:

[CarlSheeler4U]

117. Thanks

I think we all can agree that Democracy is not a spectator sport.

As a Marine veteran and candidate for US Senate (D-RI), I have
struggled to keep two primary issues in the forefront of the easily
distracted public: (1) We're still in Iraq and people are
dying. Iran is the next real risk and could lead to the draft. (2)
People Died because the President Lied. True for Iraq. True for
Katrina. He should be impeached. I am assisting Congressman John
Conyers (D-MI) efforts and have challenged the RI General Assembly to
send a joint resolution to the US House Floor, which has to be
expeditiously heard per procedure.

Many conservative Democrats have too much vested in their incumbency
with few leading the call to the withdrawal of our troops or
aggressively challenging this administration's policies that has
placed privilege of the few over prosperity for the many.

There are so many good organizations. Sometimes they benefit from
synergies of joining forces with others with common goals or common
groups. As mine is a grassroots effort, I need activists and
advocates. I prefer this. I'm accountable and accessible to the
public and not K Street Lobbyists and their special interests who have
gutted our American Dream.

It would be an honor to work with you and your organization(s). I am
working to earn support and endorsements. I am pleased to be endorsed
by the Impeach Bush Coalition.

Ultimately, my most pressing call to action has been to erect and maintain
the first bill board in the US on I-95 that states Be Patriotic Impeach Bush
with our Constitution in the background. This has been a lightning rod
throughout the blogosphere. Like most things it needs to be an ember
that is stoked. A copy of the bill board and Daily Kos diary write up
are at: www.carlsheeler.com

and http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/19/1730/42036 and

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/9/3407/09827

I have called on people I know to reach out to just ten people asking
them to do the same outreach. I am determined to keep that beautiful
bill board of hope up until Bush is Impeached and our troops are united
with their families. I'm asking everyone for a small $17.76 or $20.06
contribution or, if you're able, each month until the elections.

Thank you for allowing me to share. Let me know your own thoughts, too.

Semper fi' (Always faithful)

Carl Sheeler, US Senate
Democrats, not aristocrats

Sheeler for US Senate
www.carlsheeler.com
592 Hopkins Hill Road
West Greenwich, RI 02817-2562

[Road Scholar]

103. Here's the problem with impeachment procedures at this time.

Any procedures or investigations before the November mid-term election will be whitewashed. Just be patient. We can wait in order to get a conviction.

[radio4progressives]

104. what gaurantee is there that there will be honest elections in november?

bush crime family knows we're gearing up not just for impeachment but prosecutions, convictions, and serious prison time.

now, if you were in the seat of power, got there vis a vis a built in infrascture and apparatus which gauranteed your throning in the first place - your poll numbers are rock bottom in the skids, (americans should be demanding a recall election like they did in Candaa - vote of no confidence) and you know that your days are numbered, unless you took some sort of action to prevent turning over the reigns of power over to the people who are determined to convict you - what would you do?

[Road Scholar]

105. If it goes like 2000 and 2004, then I'm ok with a revolution. nt

[radio4progressives]

109. you mean 2006, right? We shouldn't wait until 2008..

everyone is saying, let's vote the bastards out!

yeah, well... if there were honest elections, that would have happened in 2000, 2002, & 2004. We had the goddam votes, they just weren't counted!

[originalpckelly]

106. There is a really good case for impeachment

But Democrats can't make it. It will have to come from Republicans who are fed up with the President, and turn on him, as well they should. I actually have some evidence that will blow you all away, and it proves the DOJ thought the wiretapping program was illegal. I actually sent it to the NY Times in an e-mail earlier today. I call it the smoking gun of NSA-gate. It was in plain sight too. My hint is:

What was released to the public on February 7, 2003.

[Road Scholar]

107. Now that's called "dirty pinochle" where I come from. Come on

and tell us.

[radio4progressives]

110. hmm...

i give up... can't remember there's been so many smoking guns..

[Cascadian]

114. I used to like Pelosi

What the Hell ever happened to her? She used to be one of the most progressive people in the House and now, she has become a wimp. Any San Francisco voters out there disappointed with your Congressperson? I would be.



John

[radio4progressives]

116. Pelosi is not a Wimp, She's Very Much the Loyal Party Apparatchik.

Pelosi is simply following orders... but not from constituents..

[Cascadian]

119. She has forgotten who the real employers are.

Maybe what she needs is a wake-up call in the primaries.



John