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IWR vote . . .not only a mistake but a blatant abuse of power

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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 12:23 PM
Original message
IWR vote . . .not only a mistake but a blatant abuse of power
On another thread people were congratulating JE for saying his IWR vote was a mistake on MTP.
.
Though it is always refreshing to hear someone admit they were wrong on this colossal blunder it is a mute point on a lot of levels.

The thing that everyone is missing with this "well you voted to give the president the authority to use force against Iraq" accusation always is not inclusive of the operative modifying prepositional phrase. . ."WITH UN APPROVAL."

THE UN NEVER GAVE THAT APPROVAL even after Colin Powell's totally hyped presentation.

14:41 my butt. Inspectors were allowed back in and were doing their jobs.

I would think that if it is pointed out that if those who voted for IWR had known that * was going to not abide by the terms of that resolution they would NEVER have granted him that authority in the first place. Then the whole argument goes POOF.

It then becomes clearly evident that * abused that authority in total willful arrogance versus valuing the wisdom of the representatives of the global community
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Congress should IMPEACH Bush specifically for VIOLATING the IWR guidelines
because that is exactly what he did when he ignored the weapons inspectors reporting accurate intel from on the ground in Iraq fpr two months.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I posted this is December when the FISA violations were revealed. . .
"just one stinking crime. . .'scuse me but the stench is far more foul than that"

I find it most intriguing that the warrantless surveillance on the citizenry, especially those "quarrelsome Quakers", petrifying Peta people, and those troublesome tree hugging Sierra club folks, is getting so much attention as qualifying as a singular high crime.
This recent uproar reminded me of a lengthy laundry list compiled a while ago by one of those insightful gentlemen over at the crisis papers that I happened to copy and save for some strange reason. .

http://www.crisispapers.org /.

"Among these open and confirmable crimes (of this administration):
*
Lying to Congress is a crime.
*
Disclosing the identity of a covert intelligence agent is a crime.
*
Perjury is a crime.
*
Influence peddling (“graft”) is a crime.
 *
Torture of prisoners and violation of the Geneva Conventions is a crime.
 *
Violation of civil liberties (denial of rights to counsel, trial, etc.) is a crime.
*
Failure to obey a court order (i.e. of the Supreme Court) is a crime.
 *
Misprision (i.e., incitement) of a felony is a crime.
*
Voting fraud is a crime.
 *
Obstruction of Justice is a crime."

I would humbly add: insider trading (Harken) , bribery bought and sold with public funds only to further "catapult the propaganda," stealing a family's farm (Ranger's stadium,) and torturing any sentient being (starting with all those frogs he detonated as a kid,) to that list, but that's just me.

To say nothing of rumors of three of his biographers supposedly being suicided and possible complicity in all the LIHOP & MIHOP theories, firmly believed by so many.
So everyone's all excited about some officials and pundits finally uttering the so called "I" word. As if, Diebold and ES&S would ever allow a Dem majority in Congress to preside ever again.

Sorry for the cynicism but having observed three questionable elections and no federal legislation come the floor to fix HAVA and all the glaring security flaws & "features" in the privately owned voting equipment, I much prefer the concept of a most deserved resignation and indictment of the entire "misadministration."

Call me a dreamer, but after all of this odious and obvious criminal behavior, * and his band of incompetent, conscience-less, and ethicless thieves, are truly worthy of nothing less.
If lying about a "third rate burglary" resulted in the resignation of a President, wouldn't lying about a casus belli resulting in countless deaths and rampant destruction, in addition to this litany of overt violations of laws long establish, do so as well. . .?

/rant
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yes. blm. But where were those Democratic voices
saying it OUT LOUD and calling for an Impeachment? It is a moral abrogation of the Congressional Oath to protect and defend the Constitution and NOT call for an impeachment after seeing the evidence continue to mount. Those calls for Impeachment were made by certain House members. The IWR "Aye" voters would have MORE moral authority to call for an Impeachment. It was a disgrace to vote aye on IWR, but it is even worse to allow the abhorrent wrong to go without implementing constitutional remedies enacted for specifically this purpose.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Well that's pretty obvious
Every time one of them have tried to hold Bush accountable for his own words and actions on the lead up to the war, up pops the "voted for the war" crowd to lambast those Democrats as traitors equal to Bush.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Not traitors equal to Bush. They just aided and abetted...
the illegal, unjust, immoral invasion of another country.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Only 9 other Dems signed Kerry's letter to investigate the DSM.
How many would have backed him at that time - or any other leading Dem - in a serious call for impeachment?

However, since then I think the support for impeachment is growing, as the evidence of illegal acts mount. I don't think we're quite there yet though.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. easy to say, and yet THOSE SAME senators...
Edited on Sun Mar-05-06 01:22 PM by mike_c
...knew that the Bush administration has misused the USA PATRIOT Act in multiple ways, has abused the FISA Act by operating clandestine domestic spying through the NSA, and has lied repeatedly to cover their crimes against humanity, yet those same senators recently voted overwhelmingly to renew the Act-- arguably one of the worst broad legislative assaults against personal freedoms in the U.S. during the last century.

I think the U.N authorization clause of the IWR was little more than a political smoke screen. If the IWR had authorized the president to use force against Iraq any time he was in a pissy mood, the congress would have approved it. Only about a few dozen or so members of congress have a conscience that extends beyond their bank accounts or their political advantage. I don't believe for a minute that any of them were duped by Bush on the IWR. Bush was already beginning to mass troops in Kuwait in preparation for an invasion. The Bush cabal had been agitating to "get Iraq" for over a decade-- and that same cabal had repeatedly pronounced its contempt for the U.N. Congress wasn't fooled-- they were just patsies.

on edit: remember too that Congress subsequently passed resolutions of support for the Iraq war, even if it did violate the express language of the IWR. The IWR was a cover document only, meant to give Bush what ever authority he wanted and to absolve Congress of its constitutional responsibility to debate and declare war. Having spread its legs for Bush, Congress will never hold him accountable UNLESS there is a SUBSTANTIAL turnover in membership, starting with the replacement of the majority of those who voted for the IWR.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yup, the excuses are weak
And for all those reason you mentioned, along with "Stella's" above, it is hard for many of us to accept the reasoning the dems gave us for voting for most of bush's agendas. We want to get behind those dems in Congress but it is hard to do with enthusiasm when they are voting against our beliefs (pitiful laws concerning bankruptcy, tort law, tax breaks for rich, etc.) Where is the anger when this admin. does Nothing for the Katrina victims? Oh, the list is long. Soooo, give me an outspoken Murtha, Dean, Feingold, Boxer, et al.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. No matter how many times this is raised, it doesn't change the
fact that this was not a vote declaring war. The issue will always be Bush's violation of a clearly stated resolution. Bush claims that members of Congress gave him the authority to start his illegal war, but they did not. Bush is spying on Americans while claiming that the AUMF gave him the authority to do so, but it did not. Most people understand that Bush is breaking the law.


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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. well, you can split hairs all day long, but a weak and compliant congress
Edited on Sun Mar-05-06 02:16 PM by mike_c
...that behaves as though it utterly supports the WH no matter how illegal its conduct means that the distinctions matter little. Congress has repeatedly passed resolutions of support for the war against Iraq since the invasion. If the Congress was duped, and Bush's use of the IWR mocks their intended authority, why have they been so utterly supportive of the war, both in terms of resolutions of support and in terms of monetary support? Even the opposition party has been unable to rally a coherent position of opposition to the war against Iraq.

I don't believe for a moment that any but a small handful of the most gullible in Congress were fooled by any "checks and balances" built into the IWR, or by any wording that rendered ambiguous its intention to authorize an unprovoked invasion, period. Only a fool would have thought so. Why do you think MILLIONS took to the street in the U.S. and around the world to express their shock and disapproval of the coming invasion? It was utterly clear what the Bush cabal intended-- they were already massing troops and building the infrastructure for invasion in Kuwait (and remember too that the excuse that "that was just to put pressure on Saddam" is equally meaningless, since Iraq had long since complied with the U.N. disamament mandate, weapons inspectors were in Iraq and nearly ready to certify Iraqi compliance, and so on).

That later bit is key to this discussion and is too often ignored, IMO. The U.S. had colluded with its allies to maintain the embargo against Iraq for a decade too long, and had killed nearly one million innocent civilians as a result. Remember too that the embargo was the CULMINATION of a lengthy infrastructure destruction campaign designed to produce the maximum degree of civilian suffering and death. America turned what was once one of the most prosperous Middle Eastern nations into a concentration camp where the inmates were starved and denied water, sanitation, and medical care. A complete U.N. report on Iraq's disarmament would have revealed this, and it would have revealed that Saddam Hussein, the "Hitler of the Middle East," had been telling the truth all along about compliance with the U.N., as we now know to be the case.

So that was the backdrop for the IWR-- an administration with a severe hatred-- a largely irrational hatred-- for Saddam Hussein, an administration utterly beholden to a greedy MIC and petroleum industry that viewed a war against Iraq as a cash cow of legendary proportions, a huge pile of skeletons needing to be swept under the carpet or otherwise made to go away, and a compliant congress that wanted more than anything to absolve itself of its constitutional responsibility to set the conditions for war-- and any responsibility for that big pile of skeletons.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Nobody is splitting hairs. Bush broke the law.
Edited on Sun Mar-05-06 02:30 PM by ProSense
He did not have a declaration of war from Congress. There are many other existing laws, that are equally clear, that he has broken.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. you'll find this facinating reading....
Edited on Sun Mar-05-06 03:44 PM by mike_c
Lots of people hold similar views, but in fact the matter is not nearly so simple.


First, an excerpt from Article 1, section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. These are the powers of Congress with respect to the military:

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


Sounds pretty clear so far, right? Now consider the legal history of the war powers clause above:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Clause

Sometimes referred to as the War Powers Clause, the United States Constitution, Article One, Section 8, Clause 11, vests in the Congress the exclusive power to declare war.

Five wars have been declared in American history: the War of 1812, the Mexican-American War, the Spanish-American War, World War I and World War II. Some historians argue that the legal doctrines and legislation passed during the operations against Pancho Villa constitute a sixth declaration of war.

However, beginning with the Korean War, American presidents have not sought formal declarations of war, instead maintaining that they have the constitutional authority, as commander in chief (Article Two, Section Two) to use the military for "police actions".

In 1973, Congress passed the War Powers Resolution, which requires the president to obtain either a declaration of war or a resolution authorizing the use of force from Congress within 60 days of initiating hostilities. Its constitutionality has never been tested as Congress has always passed the required authorization when requested by the president.

Some legal scholars maintain that all military action taken without a Congressional declaration of war (regardless of the War Powers Resolution) is unconstitutional; however, the Supreme Court has never ruled directly on the matter.

There is also much debate about the meaning of the word 'declare.' Some scholars suggest that to declare war does not necessarily mean to 'commence war.' During the Philadelphia Convention, there was some discussion about the difference between the power to 'make war' and the power to 'declare war,' and which of the two should be written into the Constitution. A declaration of war lets the citizens of a nation know that they are now at war with some other nation or entity. It also puts the belligerent nations and their citizens on notice. More importantly, this establishes that the 'law of nations' or international law is governing the conduct of war. This protects citizens in all the warring nations involved insofar as if they are captured by the enemy, they will be treated as prisoners-of-war instead of mere criminals.


In essence, Congress has agreed that it can "authorize" the president to "conduct wars" in the absence of a formal declaration-- it has agreed to a disinction between "making war" and "declaring war." Presidents have ALWAYS argued that Article Two gives them this authority as Commander in Chief of the military, i.e. sole authority about how the military is used is vested in the president. (on edit-- an interesting aside to this is that it makes it entirely possible for congress to declare a war that the president refuses to fight-- as CinC he has the ability to simply not engage an enemy despite a congressional declaration-- unlikely, but there it is.) Congress tried to seal this loophole in 1973 with the War Powers Resolution, which every president since Nixon has held to be unconstitutionally limiting of presidential powers, but which has the (perhaps) unintended side effect of providing a formal mechanism for presidents to go to war without a congressional declaration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution

Provisions

The purpose of the War Powers Resolution is to ensure that Congress and the President share in making decisions that may get the U.S. involved in hostilities. Portions of the War Powers Resolution require the President to consult with Congress prior to the start of any hostilities as well as regularly until U.S. armed forces are no longer engaged in hostilities (Sec. 3); and to remove U.S. armed forces from hostilities if Congress has not declared war or passed a resolution authorizing the use of force within 60 days (Sec. 5(b)). Following an official request by the President to Congress, the time limit can be extended by an additional 30 days (presumably when "unavoidable military necessity" requires additional action for a safe withdrawal.


History

Under the Constitution, war powers are divided. Congress has the power to declare war and raise and support the armed forces (Article I, Section 8), while the President is Commander in Chief (Article II, Section 2). It is generally agreed that the Commander in Chief role gives the President power to repel attacks against the United States and makes him responsible for leading the armed forces. During the Korean and Vietnam wars, the United States found itself involved for many years in undeclared wars. Many Members of Congress became concerned with the erosion of congressional authority to decide when the United States should become involved in a war or the use of armed forces that might lead to war. The Senate and the House of Representatives achieved the 2/3 majority required to pass this joint resolution over President Nixon's veto on November 7, 1973.

(snip)

After combat operations against Iraqi forces ended on February 28, 1991, the use of force to obtain Iraqi compliance with U.N. resolutions remained a War Powers issue, until the enactment of P.L. 107-243, in October 2002, which explicitly authorized the President to use force against Iraq, an authority he exercised in March 2003, and continues to exercise for military operations in Iraq.


Congress had the authority to debate a declaration of war against Iraq and decline to do so-- that would have removed ANY political cover from what is undoubtedly a crime against humanity under international law. It could also have declined to give the authority to use force under the War Powers Resolution, with the same effect. Make no mistake, Bush would have undoubtedly invaded anyway citing his Article Two authority and simply returned to Congress to seek further authorization after 60 days-- this is not a congress that seems much inclined to deny him anything. Instead, congress gave away the house with barely a whimper, and gave the Bush administration complete legal cover UNDER U.S. LAWS for waging a war of aggression against Iraq. That means that successful U.S. prosecution will be that much more difficult-- congress gave the Bush administration a get-out-of-jail-free card for at least the war crime of an unprovoked war of aggression.

It's disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that the IWR was "not authorization to invade Iraq." Under the WPR Bush did not actually need any authorization to invade Iraq, but had congress denied him the IWR it would have had some recourse for stopping it or for holding him responsible.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Congress does have recourse, Bush violated the authorization. n/t
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. right-- that's why they've worked so hard to put the brakes on him...
...ever since. As far as I'm aware NOT ONE CONGRESS PERSON has cited violation of the terms of the authorizing resolution as grounds for challenging the legality of the war. Can you inform me of any? The only way such a charge could ever be pursued is by a constitutional test of the War Powers Resolution, which is too nice a marriage of convenience for both the legislative and executive branches, despite presidential protestations, and one the Supreme Court has never ruled on, and likely never will. Especially with nearly half the court drooling over the prospect of unlimited executive power.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Two things
This was the greatest blunders of our nation's history that will have the most exacting and long term repercussions for our kids.

In February of '03 I just knew, there would be nothing that could stop these heinous bozos from this illegal invasion. Just never imagined they botch it so badly.

Thanks for sharing your insightful thoughts.

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fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I knew it even earlier
I knew the SOB would do whatever he wanted no matter what, and in no way was he ever going to honor any resolution. I was hoping I was wrong and that the Inspectors would stay, but no Bush pulled them , not any Democrat, BUSH. If anyone cares to remember Bush was ready to attack as early as November of '02, and 70% of Americans were led to believe that Sadam had WMDs. The inspectors were proving him wrong on the WMD analogy, that is when he stepped things up in Jan. '03 and added more lies. He is evil, there is ONE PERSON to blame and that is BUSH and his neo-cons.

Many here on DU, like to put all the blame on a few, and Bush is not one of them. Well you know IWR or no IWR Bush would of gone to war.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. "IWR or no IWR Bush would of gone to war." - Bingo. n/t
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. It's mind numbing actually.
All with apparant impunity now that he has four executive apologists on the SCOTUS.

May have to be the international community, retired military and spooks, and older more genuine journalists that take them down.

In the interim, I have composed "19 tricks or Weapons of Massive Reintegration for Global Amelioration" that are non linear somewhat spiritual solutions. It's too long to post but PM me if you want to see a copy.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. And they let Bush get away with it too
That's the nauseating part of it all. Every time they say "vote for war", they let Bush get away with abusing his authority in not doing what that resolution required him to do. It's just sickening.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-05-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. You and blm nail it! It's all about accountability period
I have been totally against the invasion from the beginning, but, constantly blaming others instead of the one who got us in this tragic, illegal mess is only letting him off the hook and taking the focus off one issue: ACCOUNTABILITY.

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