About the Crash/Brokeback Mountain controversy

[RagingInMiami]

First of all, I haven't seen either movie. Nor have I seen either of the Clooney films, but I was hoping one of those would win because I like Clooney's outspoken political stances(I think the last movie I've seen in a theater was Fahrenheit 911).

From what I've read here, Crash was "contrived" and not necessarily a great movie, not worthy of an Oscar. Or according to its supporters, it was a well-deserved victory because it forced people to confront everyday issues about racism.

And Brokeback Mountain was a movie about gay men and gay issues where homosexuality was the main theme. Or, according to its most ardent supporters, it was not about that at all, but simply a love story where the two lovers happen to be gay. It could easily have been played by the traditional male-female acting duo, they argue.

My question is, if BBM was indeed just a love story, if the two protagonists could be replaced with a man and a women and not have it take away from the storyline, what is it about this movie that makes it stand out from the other movies?

Why is this movie so deserving of an Oscar?

[Ian David]

1. I think we need a movie about lesbian ninjas

That would be better than gay cowboys.

Note to Ang Lee- Lesbian Ninjas.

[xchrom]

6. umma thurman and charlize theron as the ninjas.

[BlueEyedSon]

24. I'll pre-pay my ticket if it helps, Ang.....

:evilgrin:

[Benhurst]

2. The Oscars are not such a meaningful award in any event, except

for their value at the box-office.

Julie Andrews, a capable enough actress, won Best Actress for playing Mary Poppins!

Ben Hur was voted best picture of the year, and while it was certainly better than most Biblical extravaganzas, hardly a great film.

One could go on and on about Oscar winners and the better performances, musical numbers, and films they beat out.

It's a contrived little contest, and not a very meaningful one at that.

[redwitch]

30. what do you have against Mary Poppins?

Everybody loves Mary Poppins! I love Mary Poppins! She's practically perfect in every way fer cryin' in the sink!

[Benhurst]

33. Hardly Julie Andrews' defining performance as an actress.

Have you ever read the book upon which the film was based? Mary Poppins is another Disney vulgarization of a children's classic, no more in the spirit of the original than his grotesque renditions of The House at Pooh Corner and The Wind in the Willows.

[redwitch]

34. I feel sort of foolish having a discussion about Mary Poppins in

GD: Politics! I never read the book, I am sorry to say and I promise to correct that since you recommend it.
But I liked the movie and liked Julie Andrews in it- I like her in anything, she is lovely. That's all, meanin' no disrespect Sir!

[Benhurst]

35. She is lovely. I'm sorry she has had so much trouble with her

voice as of late.

:hi:

Mary Poppins is a good book for children, but I wouldn't recommend your wasting your time on it now.

Suffice it to say the late Margaret Hamilton (the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz) would have been perfect for the part. Disney took out all the spice and left considerably more than a teaspoon of sugar in its place when he made his movie, which is probably why a remake is being considered.

[redwitch]

36. I know, what a loss for us all!

Her voice is always so uplifting!

[cali]

3. Instead of asking others, go see them yourself

then form an opinion.

[RagingInMiami]

9. I'd rather spend those four hours

Watching the two Clooney films. Not that I'm racist or homophobic, as I'm sure I will be called now, I'm just more political.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. It's not just a love story.

Anyone who says that either didn't see the movie or didn't understand.

It was much more about how each of the two men deal with going back to the "real world" where they have to pretend not to be gay in order to just not get killed.

It was worthy of an Oscar in most years. Crash was more worthy this year though. If you cut at least 30 minutes out of Brokeback, I'd probably reverse my opinion, because the pacing destroyed the emotional impact of the movie.

[AX10]

10. Titanic needed to be cut by an hour too.

Still, it did not deserve film of the year.
Actually, Titantic should have just been left on the cutting room floor all together.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. Titanic needed to be cut altogether.

That film was fucking horrible.

[Caoimhe]

12. agreed-- it was a glurge-fest n/t

[Critters2]

15. Yep!

A remarkably bad film. If MST3K were still on, that would be the only reasonable use for it.

[AX10]

14. Actually, I agree.

:kick:

[QC]

13. Exactly, it's a movie about the closet

and how the closet destroys lives. You could not make a straight movie like this because there is no straight closet.

It's such a simple point, but people sure do have a hell of a lot of trouble with it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

18. And not JUST the lives of the gay men too...

Look at how many lives were negatively impacted because of intolerance. If these two men could have just done what they wanted to do, a whole lot of people would've been much, much happier.

[QC]

22. Yep--the closet doesn't just hurt gays.

It wrecks every life it touches.

[alarimer]

39. I thought Brokeback could have been cut also

It did seem a little slow at times; I'll grant that.

[LynneSin]

5. Outside the issues that each movie was based upon...

...both Movies were very well directed and well acted. They were complete pictures that drew you into the storyline to the point where you felt you were a part of that movie and not just someone sitting there in the audience watching it.

I think what we saw last night was a split vote. I think both movies were very worthy of the top Oscar award but the Academy voters split there votes giving Ang Lee (BBM) best director and Paul Haggis(Crash) Best Picture. (BTW, both were directors but only Haggis served as Producer to boot).

[rocktivity]

21. DING DING DING! LynneSin, you're our grand prize winner!

...I think what we saw last night was a split vote...

More to the point, we don't know HOW big a split because we don't know the vote totals. Crash may have beaten Brokeback by two hundred votes, or maybe only two.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Caoimhe]

7. I've seen both and I think they are both worthy

Every picture nominated was worthy. I don't think there was a conspiracy on either side, I think the oscars were handed out pretty equally. I also don't know why so many people refuse to see BBM but wish to knock it. I think it speaks volumes about their own insecurities. I bought Crash on DVD, I expect to buy the other movies when they are released. IMHO Larry McMurtry/Diane Ossana truly deserved that oscar for best adapted screenplay. If you've read the short story, and I mean SHORT story... to make that into a full movie was amazing. Nobody writes about relationships better than McMurtry. As far as the acting.. I think Jake was a bit overacted but Heath did great, and Michelle Williams is a treat. Crash had amazing acting also, with Matt Dillon inspiring me to hate him SO MUCH at the beginning. Great movies, all.

[Critters2]

8. I didn't see "Crash"

so it may have deserved the Oscar. I think too much is made of Oscars anyway.

But, as to why BBM deserved it...BBM did what a good film does. It drew me in, made me really care about the characters, forget that I was sitting in a theater watching actors. I cared about their relationship, their pain, their love for one another. That's what I think people mean when they say it was "just a love story". It was, first and foremost, a love story. You cared about these two men not because they were gay men, but because they were deeply in love, and because that love so complicated their lives and those around them.

And to that the skill of Ang Lee, and you have a great movie. Greater than "Crash"? I have no idea. But on its own merits, "Brokeback Moutain" is a great film.

[emulatorloo]

20. Brokeback won best director and best screenplay (adapted)

People are acting as if the film wasn't recognized at all -- Ang Lee is great, and I was glad to see him win finally.

[Critters2]

25. It deserved those

and again, "Crash" may have been a better all around film. I'll need to see the DVD. FWIW, I have suggested to my congregation's Ed Board that "Crash" be on their next list of discussion films, based on everything I've read about it. I think it's prolly as good as everyone's saying. I just think "BBM" was, too.

[Punkingal]

16. I saw all of the nominated movies....

With the exception of Munich, and I think they were all oscar-worthy. I think what most people are forgetting is that it was an industry vote. They don't necessarily vote for the same reasons we do...because it is the business they are in, and maybe they vote because they liked the cinematography or something. I think we had a lot of GREAT movies this year, and unfortunately, they couldn't all win.

[AX10]

17. True.

[Orangepeel]

28. besides, Crash had such a big cast, if everyone voted for their friends

it would win just based on numbers!

[izzybeans]

19. The same thing that makes Crash worthy

they both deal with a highly contradictory aspect of modern society. The place of identity and relationships within a homophobic and racist culture. One is hard to watch for some who are made uncomfortable by intimacy between two men, the other is hard to watch for those who don't like being reminded that racism is built into the fabric of everday life in such a way that violates our strongest sensibilities about equality and justice. Could either of them been performed or carried out better? Of course. But the subject matter of both is timely. They both won awards and beyond that the story is meaningless. Both are accurate fictional accounts of everyday life. Hopefully the folks who need to learn these lessons are reached and those of us who need reminded do so. Other than that...well some of us have a hard time getting past being let down by our favorite horse in the race not winning.

[Orangepeel]

23. It couldn't have been played by the traditional male-female duo

it could have been played by a male-female duo of different races, or of different religions or an older woman/younger man. But, the tragic consequences of a love that was doomed by society's constraints was central to the film.

(but I personally preferred Crash, based mostly, I think, on expectations. Both were very good movies, but I went into BBM expecting it to be phenomenal, and it was very good. I saw Crash not knowing what to expect and I really liked it).

[GR]

26. I've Seen All The Nominated Movies...

I wanted Brokeback to win just to piss off all the right wing wackos, and it is a fine movie about "repression" of authentic love by societal norms.

I believe Good Night and Good Luck had the most important "message" from a liberal standpoint but I think Brokeback was the best film.

I also liked Capote but it's about an artists conflicts and while interesting not as "important" in terms of message.

Brokeback was about repression and its effect on the lives of mortals. Also important.

Munich was good but I felt it was contrived in terms of some of the devices Spielberg used to tell the story, the sitting around and eating while they planned more hits, for example.

Crash was noteworthy in exposing the universality of racism and racial prejudice and the failure of humans to realize their own failings.

[Hosnon]

27. Good point. I have seen neither but hear repeatedly from supporters

of Brokeback that it is just a love story between A and B and A and B happen to both be men.

So what makes it Oscar worthy if the social element was not important?

[QC]

31. See post #13. n/t

[DBoon]

29. I want a movie about a gay computer geek

who wins WWII for the British, and then is hounded to suicide by that same government.

I don't know if anyone else would see "The Life of Alan Turing" though

[Lexingtonian]

32. Lordy, Lordy.

The Academy Awards were invented as a publicity tool/machine for the film industry. That's primarily what they are. Their eixstence is not purely to purvey political propaganda or be morality plays, though (as show biz people) they play along and provide that if that's what their audience demands. They always have to distract from the simple commercial point of thing to their value in articulating fashionable, short term, currents of opinion in American society. But the awards always at heart about propping up a $10 billion-a-year industry in Los Angeles.

I've seen neither Brokeback Mountain or Crash. What I do see here is people insistent that a fantasy they like because of the politics and revisionism they agree with with be given the top award in film. People simply disagree about which of these fantasies and revisionisms is more important.

Isn't all that too low a standard for art? And isn't political vindication/affirmation for a fantasy by definition too disconnected from reality to be worth a damn?

[MoonRiver]

37. BBM is a beautiful movie, that challenges people to confront their

stereotypes about love and relationships. I'm a happily married heterosexual female, and I loved the movie. I haven't seen Crash, so I can't compare the quality of these films.

My point is that BBM was worthy of an Oscar. I think it was probably a close call. Lots on DU thought Crash was better. Hopefully, soon I will see it and judge for myself.

[alarimer]

38. Not having seen all of the films I don't know

which of the five is the best film. I liked Brokeback Mountain a lot better than I liked Crash. In my opinion, Crash was a "message" film and basically hit you over the head with that message over and over again. It was not a bad film by any means. I thought the acting was good, especially Matt Dillon, but with an ensemble cast, the storyline was a little disjointed and hard to follow. Or maybe my attention span is slow LOL.

I liked Brokeback for the opposite reason. One, I thought the direction and acting were outstanding (far better than Crash- but those are different awards). Interestingly, both movies won their respective writing awards. I don't think Brokeback should have won because it was a "gay" movie and I don't think the fact it didn't win was because it was a gay movie. I don't see anything sinister in that. Sometimes movies that get a lot of hype and are expected to win, don't.

[Skittles]

40. I saw all five films

all were good but Crash simply was not Oscar worthy....I think Brokeback was, but I still contend that Good Night and Good Luck was the superior movie out of the bunch

[NMMNG]

41. I saw both movies

And while I liked Crash I agree that it was a bit contrived. Still I have no beef with it winning the awards it did.


As for BBM, it went beyond "a love story", and definitely could not have been played as a heterosexual story. It portrayed the wrenching agony and terror faced by the two men in a staunchly homophobic environment. To live their lives openly they would risk having no livelihood, no friends, no family, ostracism, attacks, even death. Therefore they had to deny it on the face of things, getting married and raising families, and having their true love relationship in secret snippets. The message is that homophobia hurts (many people no less), and it even kills.

[sandnsea]

42. For two movies trying to increase tolerance

it's ironic that the result is an awful lot of intolerance on a liberal message board.