OMG! I agree with Roy Moore -- sort of

[quaoar]

Roy "Ten Commandments" Moore is running for governor of Alabama. He delivered a sermon at a church in Huntsville on Sunday in which he made some rather interesting comments. The excerpt below implies that he believes in the separation of church and state.

Roy Moore apparently sees this separation as being more to the benefit of the church than the state. And he is right. When the church intrudes on the state, it is the church that suffers, the church that loses respect and standing in the community. Apparently Roy Moore understands this, which is kind of hard to believe. He is actually saying that the government needs to stay out of the business of religion.

http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/base/news/114164027010220.xml&coll=1

Moore emphasized that the constitutional principle of the separation of church and government, though not that of church and state, is also a biblical one. He said America, the state, was founded on Christian principles and, in it's governing, must not interfere with the free exercise of religion. He pointed to the experiences of Israel's King Saul and Judah's King Uzziah to show that the kings, though divinely appointed, were punished when they attempted to do the work of the priests.

"The king is not supposed to say how to worship," Moore said. "There is a wall of separation. It separates us from overbearing federal government that tells us how to worship him."

< snip >

Moore delivered much of his talk, including long passages of poetry and scripture, from memory. He explained the First Amendment as one that protects the free expression of the believer's duties owed to the creator. He did not explain the amendment's clause stating government should avoid establishing religion.

Christians are to "be subject unto the higher powers" of government, Moore said, using Romans 13 - but only when those laws do not conflict with what God says.

"No civil rulers are to be obeyed when they enjoin actions counter to the word of God," Moore said.

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Interesting so now he's flipflopping on the issue???

I'm now confused. I thought he was the one who wanted the Ten Commandments every where? :shrug:

[quaoar]

3. I don't know that it's a flip-flop

Moore is an interesting study. He scares the crap out of most establishment Republicans in Alabama. The Republican money in Alabama is all behind Bob Riley.

Moore is a loose cannon. And he is said to be a populist on economic issues.

[Appalachian_American]

12. That republican money behind Riley thing has been creeping into

my thoughts. The big business, insurance and timber lobbyist money. It is troubling. Maybe Moore isn't as scary as I have been thinking.

[Canuckistanian]

2. Something bizarre happening there...

Not sure I want to know this one....

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. So he's a fundie and he is confused.

This is surprising?

[depakid]

5. ...No civil rulers are to be obeyed ?

So, umm. If he believes that, then:

1. How could he swear the oath that all attorney's swear when admitted to the bar (esentially to uphold and abide by state and federal laws & the Constitution?

2. How could he be a judge and at the same time encourage people to disobey the law? and

3. Why hasn't he been disbarred?

Must be an Alabama thing.

[quaoar]

9. Well, he is at least consistent

He refused to obey the order of a federal judge to remove the Ten Commandments monument from the Alabama Supreme Court grounds. That got him removed from office.

[Bandit]

15. He is not a judge. He was disbarred because he would not

obey the law. :shrug: He seems to be openly advocating a disregard for established law

[andino]

6. He is polling low... He'll try anything to change his image. nt

[quaoar]

10. He is indeed polling low

But the polls also projected him to draw in the 30s when he ran for chief justice. He won that race. Moore is the candidate of the Wal-Mart Republicans. Riley is the candidate of the business Republicans.

I really don't think this is an attempt to change his image.

[cyberia]

7. Here's the clue:

"No civil rulers are to be obeyed when they enjoin actions counter to the word of God," Moore said.

That means, for example, that the word of God supercedes civil law. This is one of the principles that the Dominionists push. Moore is talking theocracy, not democracy.

Example: First Commandment. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

That means that under the principle that Moore states, a civil ruler who accords "equal time" to a god other than Yahweh, or no god is not to be obeyed. In particular, many public schools require that all religions be represented in, for example, displays during the Christmas/Chanuka/Ramadan/Kwanzaa period. According to Moore's principle, these requirements should not be respected; only Christian and perhaps, by a stretch, Jewish symbols should be displayed.

More significant example: Abortion. No doubt God's against it. ;-) Any official who tolerates it need not be obeyed.

Historical example: Slavery. God's clearly for it. Both testaments support it. Need I say more?

[quaoar]

13. What Moore is saying is similar to what MLK said and did

civil disobedience.

Though I am loathe to make the comparison.

MLK said that it was right to disobey unjust laws and was prepared to accept being arrested. The idea was to draw attention to the injustice of the law through his own imprisonment and the jailing of others -- shaming white America into changing the law.

Moore also committed civil disobedience when he disobeyed the order of a federal judge, knowing full well the potential consequences. I assume he did so out of his own sense of right and wrong and with the hope that his punishment would spur others to action.

The big difference, obviously, is in what is considered an unjust law. MLK fought segregation, clearly an abomination. Moore is fighting secularism, which is hardly a threat to his Christianity.

[cyberia]

14. Totally agree.

The problem is not civil disobedience in itself. It can be used to advance the Enlightenment values on which America was founded or it can be used to bring on a new Dark Ages. I think we know which camp King was in and which Moore is in.

[Bake]

16. The point is "THOU shalt have no other gods ..."

That doesn't mean that society in general can't be respectful of all faiths. It means THOU -- YOU -- shall worship no other gods, regardless of what the civil authority demands. When the Ten Commandments came down, Israel was in the midst of a polytheistic society, and the commandment was for THEM to worship no other gods.

What if the law required YOU to inform on your neighbor for, say, having extramarital sex, or for supporting the Green Party, etc. And suppose that law was "legally" enacted. Would you obey it? I hardly think so. Why? Because the law would conflict with what you KNOW to be morally and ethically right. It's the same principal here. Personally, if Roy Moore actually believes what he is quoted as saying in the OP, I have no trouble with that.

My only problem is I'm not sure Roy really believes it; I fear that like many fundamentalists, he wants to decide what EVERYONE should believe.

Bake

[cyberia]

18. Of course!

"I fear that like many fundamentalists, he wants to decide what EVERYONE should believe."

That's absolutely right. They are interested in civil disobedience in order to further the Dominionist theocratic program for America. That's what we have to fight. If they want to steep themselves in Iron Age superstition, that's up to them. When they try to impose it on 21st Century America, that's where we have to put our foot down.

[yellowcanine]

8. A "Wall" works both ways, asshat. It it is a "wall" then religion has to

be kept out of government as well as government out of religion. The constitution also specifies "no religious test" for govermnent officials as well as "no establishment of religion."

[sendero]

11. "hey enjoin actions counter to the word of God"

.... you mean the "written by a cast of characters, edited by a cast of characters, translated by a cast of characters, self-contradictory bit of literature word of god?"

That word?

[nickinSTL]

17. he doesn't believe that the state should have power over religion...

but religion having power over the state, that's another matter. I'm quite convinced he DOES believe in that.