Is Bill Clinton a War Criminal? Brian, one of the Pace protestors is here

[ReadTomPaine]

... at DU.

News Story: http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/news/2006/mar/06/030602738.html

I've agreed to start a fresh thread for him to express his feelings on this and engender discussion here on DU.

Here's his original post from deep in another thread

Note: For the record, while I have my problems with Bill, I don't share Brian's views on this matter.

"Why I called Clinton a War Criminal

I just registered after doing a search on the internet for the protest.

I was one of the students who called out former president clinton rightly for what he is: a war criminal. I called him for his actions in Iraq, Sudan, Bosnia, Columbia and many other places around the world. Including his miserable INaction in Rwanda. Had I the chance before the police came over to me, I would have called him out on his trade agreement catastrophes and domestic policies also.

I am not a right-wing fanatic. I am a dedicated left-wing, anti-war, student activist. People who only call out republican presidents on their atrocities should be ashamed on themselves. Such people have no right to call themselves anti-war activists or progressives. The most fundamental cause of every war is Profit.

I have to strongly agree with Bridget Burke: "How many would heckle "Our President" if they were allowed within shouting distance?" My answer: I sure as hell would. But I also have no problem calling out former presidents on their war crimes also.

I will be doing a press release by tomorrow. I'll include a copy or a link to a copy on here also.

-Brian


Why did I call Clinton a War Criminal? Because he is and he came to my school. If bush had came to my school I would have enjoyed it just as much (and I am sure my SS interrogation would have been MUCH longer). BUT as it relates to Iraqis in particular, between the bombings and sanctions, Bill Clinton killed a million of them. George Bush might be working his way up to that level (he might very possibly it it), but he's not there yet.

On other issues I agree George Bush is much worse. But for the record I am part of the Campus Antiwar Network and various other student and progressive groups. This was not an "isolated" event.

Any one that wants to see the video: http://www.leftist.ws/media/clintonwarcriminal.swf

I will post the one that shows me shouting when I get it. We were on ABC and Fox news so far. And the front page of Yahoo.com

More information to follow!

-Brian

NEVER FORGET: Sanctions on Iraq, Bombings in Iraq, Sudan, Extermination in Rwanda, Bombings in Bosnia, NAFTA"

link to this initial posting; http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x588348#592880

[IsItJustMe]

1. I think you better quit living in the past and start worring now.

And I do mean NOW!

[resistence]

2. Past Presidents should be accountable for their actions.

I think that is a non-issue. I fight the actions of George Bush everyday of the week. But when a former war criminal comes to my school I am definitely showing up and calling him out on it.

I believe past presidents and leaders should be held accountable. Think of what would happen if George Bush just LEAVES office. Would I stop pursing his indictment? No. I would support it and act on it for the rest of his life.

-Brian

http://www.leftist.ws/media/clintonwarcriminal.swf

[sandnsea]

5. Explain Rwanda

How do you figure Clinton is a war criminal because of the genocide in Rwanda.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

33. That's obvious!

Clinton is a war criminal because he didn't go to war in Rwanda. Instead, he should have done the opposite - go to war. Of course, this would have made him a war criminal too, so some things you can't avoid, apparently. For this, all good Naderite D.U.ers should blame Clinton. As they say, all's fair in love and war, and didn't Clinton have a problem with his love life too?

I say we should impeach Clinton over his war criminality. Maybe it wouldn't actually do anything, since he's no longer in office, but on the other hand it is an impeachment resolution we could actually get past our current Congress. We could also tack on charges of not preventing MIHOP and vote fraud, just to see if it sticks. Nothing's more entertaining than the standard Democratic circular firing squad.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. There are only so many hours in the day

especially if you are a full time student, you should pick your battles wisely.

I don't see what is accomplished by focusing on Clinton at his point. Is eating our own that constructive? The war criminals in the WH right now are a much greater danger to all of us at the moment.

[calimary]

57. I'd have to agree with this one. And with post #1.

Hey, Clinton wasn't perfect. But he's not NEARLY the problem the jackass in the Oval Office NOW is. I'd love to see you use your formidable and laudable energies and activism where it can do the most good - on the here-and-now, rather than just joining the anti-Clinton pile-on. Besides, it draws too much attention and outrage AWAY from where and on whom it should now be laser-focused. We have other battles to fight at the moment that are far more critical.

[Hawkeye-X]

35. Well, Brian..

What's done is done, there's no question about that. But calling Clinton a war criminal because of things that you don't agree with? That's where I'm having problems with. Clinton did not declare war on anything. Anything close that Clinton has come is the Kosovo conflict, when it is right after the NATO has requested US's assistance in the matter which is under the treaty. Even that, only one American died during the Kosovo conflict, and that was due to an helicopter accident. No other people have died, and that's remarkable compared to Chimp McCokespoon's history. Yes, I'm just about as way left as you are (some people actually call me a socialist!), but I think Clinton, despite his faults on many issues that I disagreed with, such as NAFTA, the FCC, and other issues that Clinton signed into law, but what he did compared to other Republican president was FAR better than spending and wasting our taxpayers resources on war, war, war, war, war like this year's version of Bush, Daddy Bush, Raygun, Ford, Nixon. Did you ever see Jimmy Carter get involved in a war? Nope. He tried to resolve the inflation issue and the oil issues, but was sandbagged by Republicans.

Think about these.

HawkeyeX

[hughee99]

47. "only one American died during the Kosovo conflict"

I don't believe the issue is the number of AMERICANS who died, but the number of people who were on the RECEIVING end of the bombs that were dropped.

[SaveElmer]

48. And how many would have died...

Had the ethnic cleansing campaign been allowed to continue?

[hughee99]

52. We don't know...

does that make those who were killed any less the victims?

[SaveElmer]

53. Doesn't make Bill Clinton a war criminal...

Is FDR a war criminal too then?

[hughee99]

56. Personally, I agree with you

But there is some room for argument, just as there is room to make the argument that FDR is a war criminal (Firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo, for example).

[FrenchieCat]

59. There were approx 500 civilian casualties resulting from the Bombings

in Kosovo according to the investigative final report on Kosovo established to review alleged war crime accusations made by various entities and Organizations.
http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/nato061300.htm

Civilian Casualties in Bosnia 4 years prior, in a war in which we did not intervene timely but did assist in the peace process in 1995, there were approx 105,000 killed (revised from prior number of 200,000), over 40,000 raped, and 1.8 million displaced.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_war

which is why the U.S., in 1999 decided to stop the Genocide getting underway in Kosovo before a repeat of Bosnia and Rwanda occurred.
http://beqiraj.com/kosova/de/war_crimes/mass_graves/index.asp
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9908/02/yugo.01/
http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/graves.htm
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9908/28/kosovo.04/
http://web.amnesty.org/wire/September2004/Kosovo
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/473017.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4547253.stm

Some people should note a few facts:

1. Rwanda shouldn't have been allowed to happen, and that is something Clinton has admitted to and apologized for....as should the rest of the world leaders in charge at the time.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1001490
http://www.cfr.org/publication/7715/humanitarian.html

2. United States did too little to late in Bosnia, which resulted in a minimum of 100,000 deaths.

3. Based on what had occurred in Rwanda in 1994, and in Bosnia from '92-95, the United States did intervene more timely in Kosovo, as it was decided that Kosovo would NOT be a repeat of those two.

However, some uninformed souls (who will never be satisfied, i.e., as they will damned you if you do; damned you if you don't) accused the United States, and President Clinton of going into Kosovo under false pretenses, as they were not satisfied that any Genocide had occurred in Kosovo...technically.

What these people miss is the fact that the War in Kosovo was fought to PREVENT Genocide.

Sooooo, for those who want to call Bill Clinton a War Criminal for his intervention in Kosovo....may I ask This question?

If hundreds of thousands had to be found dead in Kosovo to justify intervention, as they were in Rwanda and Bosnia, what would have been the point in intervening in Kosovo AFTER THE FACT?

:shrug:

I'll take my answer on the air! :hi:

[hughee99]

62. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

your 100% right about that. Clinton did not intervene in Rwanda (at all) and Bosnia (early enough). He's damned for not doing anything. He intervenes before large scale ethnic clensing begins in Kosovo, and he's responsible for pre-emptive military action against a country that does not pose any threat to the US or it's allies. As far as I'm concerned, he made the right decision here, but as you said, he was damned either way. No matter what he did, someone was going to be upset with him, be it Noam Chomsky for intervening in Kosovo or David Corn for not intervening in Rwanda.

[ReadTomPaine]

3. (shrug) I'm with you.

I did this to see how people here in GD-P would react to Brian's statements, and to see how Brian reacts to these comments. I pretty much agree with you here.

[hughee99]

50. Good advice,

I'm sure that come inauguration 2009, there will be no more * protests, except from those people who can't stop living in the past.

[aftertherevolution]

4. The Other Student

I am the other student who did the action. My name is Lauren.

I find it shameful that so-called progressives are bashing two student activists for doing what they believed was right. I fully stand by my actions.

I'm a member of a radical group called SDS. Some of you may remember it from the 60's. It has re-started. Not that I have to prove my "leftness" to any of you but I am as far left as it gets. Not only will I protest George Bush or Bill Clinton but I will confront any injustice that I see, regardless if its against the status quo or not.

The issue I have with many politically minded people, such as yourselves, is that you believe that only one party is to blame and only one party is worth protesting. You conveniently forget that Democrats voted for the Iraq war and for the Patriot Act. You conveniently forget that it was a Democratic President who signed NAFTA and GATT into law. It's not just Republicans, its not just Democrats. They are merely symptoms of a larger issue: the SYSTEM.


Thank you though to those on this site who do support our action, it's appreciated.


-Lauren

[ReadTomPaine]

6. Welcome to DU, Lauren..

Glad that you could check in also!

[Maddy McCall]

8. Lauren, I'm not bashing you.

You are posting on a progressive message board with many different people, with many different opinions. On no issue do all members of DU agree.

I support your free speech rights, though I think if you were going to protest a war criminal, you'd be better served at the present moment to protest the Bush cabal, instead of going after a non-seated former president.

I teach college students. Their apathy is astounding. I'm just glad to see students with vigorous sentiments about the state of our world today.

SDS is a good organization.

[Tom Joad]

9. The bombing in Sudan destroyed a pharmaceutical factory....

Clinton claimed it was a Chemical weapons factory. The eventually agreed it was not. If I remember right, one person died in the bombing itself. however, the resulting loss in pharmaceuticals resulted in terrifying loss of life. Though it was proven this place was for health care only, the US never offered to make up the shortage. It also helped destabilize the situation in Sudan

War criminal at work.

[MrPrax]

14. Full Props...

I figured 'the Clinton was a war criminal' line wasn't all that controversial...surprise, surprise.

Keep fighting the good fight, coz no one has the answers anyway and we all got to try something...

[Hardrada]

18. Dare to Struggle! Dare to Win!

I am an old-time SDS member and I MOST heartily welcome you to DU. We are hoping to restart SDS in Iowa. We had some damned good demonstrations here. I was opposed to the deadly Clinton-era sanctions right along (although he did not begin them). And I applauded those who shut down a speech Madelyn Albright was going to give in Madison WI. Immoral US foreign policy decisions did not begin with Shrub and are not the exclusive property of the GOP.

Anyway, hip hurrah for the return of the SDS! And good luck attend you.

[sandnsea]

19. You'll be sad to know

That your rant is posted here on a daily basis, by the majority at DU. You didn't discover radicalism, sorry. :cry:

Welcome, you'll fit right in. :)

[Bridget Burke]

23. Hey, I remember SDS'ers from the 60's.

Do you have a trust fund, too?

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Right on, baby

I protested Clinton in SF in 98 when he was pushing his destructive Iraq policy. No doubt, Bush's crimes are legion, but the pseudo-fascistic Cult of Personality here over the "Big Dog" (a softer, more acceptable spelling of "Dear Leader") is laughable and disturbing.

Good on ya!

[radio4progressives]

42. I am a Leftist from the 60's (and yes I remember SDS)

I hold all lawmakers and both parties accountable..

Had Americans held accountable Poppy Bush, Negroponte, John Poindexter, Eliot Abrams, Porter Goss, and host of others during the Nixon's, Ford's, Carter's, Reagan's & Poppy Bush's administrations THEN, we would NOT be confronted with an Executive Tyrant, or Fascists Regime TODAY.

And Clinton would NOT have been able to pass NAFTA, because NAFTA would NOT have seen the light of day if NEGROPONTE had been PROSECUTED for WAR CRIMES (along with Poppy Bush and Reagan)

NAFTA is not only Negroponte's Brain Child, it was DRAFTED and CRAFTED by Negroponte - Poppy Bush TRIED but FAILED to get this insane agreement passed through Congress, Clinton said he OPPOSED NAFTA during his campaign, and turned around and arm twisted Congress to passing it, and then set about de-regulating checks and balance Corporate oversight laws that protected consumers, workers and ordinary citizens in our own country and abroad.

Had we as a country and a party sought JUSTICE by these criminals in the Republican Party in the past, i believe we would be operating under a wholly different and more wholesome governance system today, and i do not believe that we would have ever had a 9/11, a un-Patriot Act, a decimated Constitution, an illegal war against any nation, much less Iraq. I also believe we would never be confronted with the likes of Diebold etc.

The problem with our own party is that too many for reasons i will choose not speculate here, have simply ignored these very significant matters.

I'm aware that SDS has revived itself, but mind you the history of it's infiltration by the FBI back in the 60's, and it's successful goal in destroying Left Organizations and movements vis a vis Agent provocateurs who were the leading proponents of acts of violence and other so called "radical" actions which brought down an otherwise very promising organization to establish a National Student Union and progressive movements.

[Adelante]

43. Gee, I hope you don't think this is anything new

It's all gotten rather old, in fact, but welcome to DU, anyway :hi:

[Maddy McCall]

7. They claim to be members of Students for a Democratic Society.

Wonder if that's true. :shrug:

I say more power to them. They are exercising their free-speech rights. I don't completely agree with them, but they should be allowed to criticize Clinton, who has evolved to some kind of Ivory Pedestal stature on DU, just because, relatively, he wasn't as corrupt or terrible as Bush.

[sam sarrha]

11. free speach includes lies..

[Maddy McCall]

12. My criticism of Clinton stems from his domestic policy, not his...

foreign policy.

No, free speech shouldn't include lies.

[sam sarrha]

10. is this an Attempt to not call The wet Brain Alcoholic drug addict one??

i dont see the point of calling Clinton one Due to Ommission..

when we have a Mad man on the rampage killing and looting "RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!"

i mean you have the Butcher of Baghdad, the Butcher of New Orleans the Butcher of the middle class.. all but goose stepping in a Fascist parade down WALL STREET and you want to bash clinton..?? for omission.. when every other country in the world did the same thing at that time..??

you got a real life actively killing Innocent citizens and torturing women and children..using white Phosphorus on civilians.. bombing weddings all the time in Iraq.. what is with you.. i thing you are covering up for King George

you missing the reality boat.. or you cramming an agenda down my throat..??

[aftertherevolution]

13. Do you not understand?

George Bush was not at our school. Bill Clinton was. We weren't going to protest George Bush at a Bill Clinton event.

[resistence]

15. Bush wasn't at our school people, Clinton WAS

Yep. I have said this a few times. If George Bush was there we both would have been there protesting too.

We both protest the actions of our current government whenever and whereever we get the chance to. But I would like to know who wouldn't protest someone they disagree with who comes TO THEM!

-Brian

http://www.leftist.ws/media/clintonwarcriminal.swf

[Maddy McCall]

16. When you protest a political figure.

You're going to be criticized for it. Surely you expected some backlash from the moderate left for protesting Clinton. Surely you expected some backlash for it here at DU.

[blondeatlast]

29. Like all too many fresh DUers, I don't think they took the time to read

through the boards before jumping in.

If Brian and Lauren had, they wouldn't be shocked at our lack of enthusiasm for their actions, I'm certain.

[Old and In the Way]

17. Gee, I wonder why we have this kind of distraction happening now?

You'd have thunk that the Republicans who spent 8 years and $70MM of taxpayer money could have made the war criminal case. Hell, we could have had gallows built in front of Congress.

Yeah, lets get all hot about Bill right now. That's the ticket!

I love how Fox and ABC are giving you media time to 'make your case'. Go get 'em, tigers! LOL

[resistence]

20. War Crimes

The republicans wouldn't try Clinton. No one from either party would bring it up because then the other party would act on it in the future.

As one disgruntled republican put it during the 1996 election season: "The good news is that we're going to have a Republican president in 1996, the bad news is that it will be Bill Clinton."

[MrBenchley]

24. Isn't it amazing....

The further ahead the Democrats get (and the further behind the GOP sinks), the more our "progressives" fly into a rage and post this sort of nonsense.

[Doctor_J]

36. Yep with friends like these,

who needs Republicans?

Focus, people, focus

[SaveElmer]

41. The usual clap trap from so-called progressives....

No better that the rabid right IMO

[radio4progressives]

44. The Usual Apologists from So Called "Moderates" - I Hold You Responsible

Kool Aid drinking from either party when WRONG DOING to our own citizens/nation as well as other citizens of other nations - our constitution - is as wrong and criminal as the perpetrators in power.

[SaveElmer]

45. Save your self righteousness for someone else...

I've had my fill thank you!!!

[BushOut06]

58. It's the "thou shalt not question" mentality

You gotta love the mentality that says how dare you question the Democratic Party when we are fighting against BushCo. As if one can't do both at the same time? Questioning DINOs and bringing up various grievances in no way suggests that we are any less attentive to the issues at hand regarding * and his policies.

[MrBenchley]

46. You're right on the money....

[DerekG]

21. God bless both of you.

I've long harbored the suspicion that Bush is not hated so much for his policies, but because he himself is so unfathomably reprehensible. Had this chest-thumping crusader possessed a scintilla of the charm of the silver-tongued sophisticate you so recently denounced, he might have had easier sailing (certainly at the U.N.). To his misfortune, Bush is bereft of this magnetism. All you need to know about his character can be seen in those two beady eyes of his. The malignant sociopath. Truly, he's the sort of creature you'd find in Graves's "I, Claudius" masterworks. Our own little Nero.

Of course, Nero didn't exist in a vacuum. He had some very, very interesting antecedents. Crafty men, who couldn't wash the blood from their hands if they were given a thousand years to do so. Men like Clinton.

Let it be said that there were at least two students who opted to side not with a statist, but with his victims.

With those abandoned to torment and death in Iraq, all in the name of regime change.

With those grieving parents, whose deformed babies will bear the mark of the depleted uranium we left in the soil of Yugoslavia.

With those dismembered children, who might have been spared had Clinton not been so reticent in supporting the anti-land mine treaties.

With those destitute single mothers, who were thrown off the rolls by way of Welfare Deform, and plunged into the happy world of slave-wage labor.

With those non-violent offenders, who rot in prison cells because of certain draconian crime bills.


You both have my admiration: I was a bit older before I came to recognize Big Dawg as the most agreeable Republican president this country's ever endured.

[Meldread]

22. Clinton was awful...

...of course Bush is even worse, but I like many others, believe Clinton was also awful. Many of the things those on the left distain are the fruits of Clinton's labor. Don't Ask, Don't Tell and DOMA weren't passed by Republicans, they were passed under Bill Clinton and a Democratically Controlled Congress.

Really, we have a choice between "horrible (R)" and "pretty bad (D)" when we go out to vote. Continually we throw money and votes at pretty bad in hopes that it's going to get better, when over time all it has done is get worse.

We need a Democratic Leader to come along and force change within the party, and then open up the political system to those outside of the two party system so that diversity can grow in America. Maybe then we'll be able to elect leaders who truly represent us.

[Bridget Burke]

26. Since you've repeated my DU name in the identical post...

That has been spammed in several places here....

Please let us know your full names, so we can check up on your real credentials. How nice that you got all this publicity. Too bad you can't direct it where it will do any good. But--that's too HARD....

(I remember too many SDS trust-fundies from the 60's.)

[meganmonkey]

27. I want you to know

that you are not alone here! I fully support your actions, and as you can see, most people who don't support you are playing the lesser of 2 evils game - "Well, Bush is worse so why waste your time on Clinton?". But principles must come before party, and until these people can see Clinton's presidency with honesty and clarity, they will not be effective in working for positive change in this country and the world.

I also want you to know that I would really like to send you a PM (private message) but you need to have more posts, I don't know how many. Please keep posting no matter how futile because I have something to tell you that I can't post in the open forum (I hope that intrigues you, and doesn't creep you out LOL).

PEACE!!!

:patriot:

[DrGonzoLives]

28. So...

You criticize him for going after Bosnia, where there was ethnic cleansing taking place, but for not doing anything in Sudan or Rwanda?

[rockymountaindem]

49. The double standard is quite clear

I noticed that too.

[AJH032]

65. good observation

n/t

[blondeatlast]

30. From the center to the left, in this time, we need to choose our battles

very wisely.

IMHO, your group didn't.

I pretty much despised Clinton, btw, and still do. But if I despise Clinton, imagine how I feel about the current admin...

[Doctor_J]

38. It's a lot easier to get air time protesting Clinton than protesting *

Protesting the Lying Coward is likely to get you arrested and possibly sent to Cuba. Protesting Clinto n will get you on Faux News and all the hate radio shows.

[Old and In the Way]

55. Funny how that works.

Either our friends are in the employ of Bush's Brain or they are the theoretical masters of the politics of the inconsequential. Either way, it's pretty silly.

But I'd be happy to drag Bill in front of a Truth Commission AFTER we get rid of the criminals currently occupying the White House.

[blondeatlast]

63. Indeed. Who'da thunk that the far Left and the far Right could dance

so well together?!

[FrenchieCat]

67. I would have....they always have, and they always will......

It's the phenomenon of the extremes being at such far opposite ends on a straight line.....but when a circle is formed....they meet!

[BoneDaddy]

31. As much as I agree...

with the lad, I think that comparatively he should be spending his time, energy and effort on this current president. I didn't vote for Clinton his second term and in 2000 for some of the reasons cited above, but what Clinton did pales in comparison with what BushCo are guilty of.

[DarienComp]

37. No no no, don't you understand?

TRUE progressives must spend all their time yelling at the top of our lungs, preferably while being dragged away by some authority figure.

All the rest of us are poseurs, you see.

[BoneDaddy]

40. Hehe

I guess I am not as much of a progressive as I thought...I am going to go break something.
Oh my God, I am having an identity crisis. If I am not a conservative or a republican and now I find out I am not a progressive, what am I?

[Neil Lisst]

32. What's good for the goose is sauce for the gander.

First of all, isn't it nice having two people who were protesting in a newsworthy event here at DU talking about it?

Second, both appear to be sincere anti-war advocates.

Three, while I disagree strongly with their conclusions, I am assured by their willingness to put themselves out there for what they believe.

As far as I can tell, they didn't violate any laws, and they did get their point made. It's free speech, it's political theater, it's the stuff of American protest since Colonial times.

I love Bill Clinton, but he's an ex-president, and it's important for us to live in a society where the occasional person can still tell a current or former president or vice-president "you suck!"

[immoderate]

39. Welcome to DU Brian and Lauren.

I think there is a need for the most brave of us to talk about the system and its flaws. The running of the society sometimes requires compromises that I accommodate but am not entirely comfortable about. I think Clinton was one of the better presidents, but I acknowledge that is not saying much.

I welcome these people who want to get to the roots of the problem (the definition of radical) and make us be honest with ourselves. As a friend once told me, "If you're going to yell, make sure you yell the truth."

The truth needs to be told. I am glad these people are here to remind us. I hope they hang around.

--IMM

[AtomicKitten]

51. Just a reminder, it's 2006.

With all that is going on, I'm at a loss as to why in god's name someone has the extra time on their hands to contemplate this harsh albeit debatable assessment.

I suggest the author burn a few brain cells on current events and comparative analysis.

[sendero]

54. This jerk..

.... gets the Sendero Douchebag of the Day award, and he well earned it.

Did Clinton make mistakes? Absolutely. More than a few of them were because he was persecuted, villified and hamstrung by vast cadre of right wing idiots. Clinton could't break wind without being attacked, much less manage the world.

The same group of fuckwits who persecuted, villigied and hamstrung Clinton are now in power and have done more damage in any single year than Clinton did during his entire term.

Hey Douchebag of the Day, go screw yourself.

[IsItJustMe]

60. This is all a diversion that keeps us from taking action today.

The administration and the right wing media are experts at it. I think people should see this for what it is.

Misdirection and subterfuge

[FrenchieCat]

61. That's how I see it too......

It's much easier to point the finger after the fact and accuse.....

Much more difficult to stop the shit as it is going on!

[AJH032]

64. sanctions that were already in place in 1990 (pre-Clinton)?

To my knowledge, President Clinton did not institute these UN policies. Maybe he should have done something about it, but I don't see how what Clinton didn't really do is worse than what Bush Jr. actually did.

[AJH032]

66. stupid Bill Clinton, I wish he was never president

I mean, look what the asshole did! Fuck you Bill Clinton for lifting 7 million Americans out of poverty, for bringing down unemployment to its lowest point in 30 years, for increasing family income, for creating more jobs in 8 years than had ever been created before, for actually caring about global warming in a time when noone else seemed to. Oh, and fuck you for starting an initiative to fight HIV/AIDS through treatment and education, and actions against world poverty, and obesity. Dammit, just go to hell.

[FrenchieCat]

68. The lessons of "then" that I take for the future?

Clinton was a good President who he also made many mistakes.

When the Republicans took back congress in 1994, Clinton became somewhat of a lame duck President. Under the circumstances, he did well in some areas, considering, and in other areas he didn't do as well.

He certainly did make some Foreign policy errors (although I disagree with some as to what those errors were)(and domestic errors as well--but I'll speak on the Foreign policy ones)....most of them stemming from his having to prove that he could handle Foreign policy matters, after being labeled a "Draft Dodger" weak on defense by the Republicans. His biggest error was miscalculating how to remedy his perceived handicap, which he attempted to by putting a Republican as head of our Defense Department (Sec. Bill Cohen).....and giving Republicans the kind of power that they should not have had.

In so doing, Bill Clinton also deeply re-inforced the notion that Democrats were weak on Defense (a stereotype that Democrats are still trying to shake off this very moment, with a price that we paid dearly in 2002 and 2004).

The mistakes made weren't always his own, but since he allowed much of his foreign policy decisions to be overly influenced by the Republican agenda setters (and yes, PNAC too), and played it safe when he shouldn't have (Rwanda and Bosnia --and even Kosovo could have been done "better"), in the end, he was certainly responsible for some of the blunders experienced during his administratin.

But in a long run and in the final analysis, Bill Clinton also did good things, foreign policy wise, which is why people all over the world still revere him.

What I have learned from observing the presidencies of Clinton and Bush ....is that, in the future, more than ever, I will not vote for a nominee that has no Foreign policy experience, period. That's why when I hear Democrats pushing for those with no experience in that area....I shudder (especially in these times).

So I conclude that Clinton didn't do as good a job as he could have because of his consideration to "political" calculations in all of his decisions (instead of always just doing what was "right" in terms of human suffering), and needless to say....Bush has totally plundered our reputation, burned all and any bridges, maximized human suffering all over the world and therefore rendered any American good will and effectiveness around the world moot to the extreme negative.

The simple fact is that we can no longer afford mistake after mistakes round the world from those learning on the job. :shrug:

[Vickers]

69. What an idiotic waste of time.

:eyes: