Calif. county back to boring paper ballots

[JohnWxy]

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060307-010847-2326r

PIEDMONT, Calif., March 7 (UPI) -- The California city and county that pioneered electronic voting are returning to old-fashioned paper ballots this summer as fraud is more difficult that way.

Piedmont, Calif., the first city in the state to use touch screens, and Alameda County have decided to revert to the tried-and-true amid criticism from computer scientists and voting activists, who say fraud and errors on the machines can be virtually undetectable.

Piedmont made California history in 1999 with the state's first election conducted on touch-screen voting machines, the Oakland (Calif.) Tribune said.

Alameda and other counties soon followed.

[MadMaddie]

1. Until they can provide receipts for the computerized voting machines...

paper is the best way to validate the votes....

This is a good start!!!

[RazzleDazzle]

21. no, no, no, no. Please no.

Not RECEIPTS -- paper ballots. Voter verified paper ballots. Receipts are nothing when a vote is at stake; ballots are everything. Paper ballots can be counted by hand. Receipts are nothing, and WON'T be counted as if they were ballots.

[Mountainman]

38. Why can't a machine be programmed to give you a false receipt?

I think that the machine could be programed to record your vote opposite from the way you voted and give you a receipt that said it didn't. If I were rigging an election I would like the idea that you feel secure with your receipt even though your vote will be counted wrong. You would then not question the voting.

[yurbud]

42. Democratic President and AG should off Diebold a deal: you get out of

voting business and stay out, and we won't send you to prison and dissolve your corporation.

[valerief]

2. Great news. I want more, more, more to switch to paper.

[Merlot]

3. "amid criticism from computer scientists and voting activists..."

Now lets just turn up the volume on those criticisms to the rest of California.

[ReadTomPaine]

4. I wonder what the new SOS Bruce MacPherson will say or do...

about this.

[Wilms]

7. I suspect nothing.

I think he's been doing the bidding for the counties that want to use/already have invested in Diebold, not for Diebold itself.

And I might get my a$$ kicked for saying so.

:hide:

[radio4progressives]

17. i don't understand..

You've nailed it, Wilms..

But why would you get your ass kicked for saying so? :shrug:

[Wilms]

24. Hit the wrong button. Please see reply 23. n/t

[Wilms]

23. It doesn't jive with the Shelley was martyred concept.

That belief includes the idea that McP was installed to install Diebold.

[kster]

29. Celebrate a little, but never let your

guard down with these corrupt b*st*rds...........

[Wilms]

32. You almost made my point.

They could be corrupt and want Diebold machines.

But, they also could just be lazy, apathetic, ignorant, or even convinced that there is superior efficiency and security with evoting. Of course I don't support those attitudes. But there's a big difference between such attitudes and being corrupt.

[Tiggeroshii]

5. Technology is making us more vulnerable

ditch it and let's do better

[Viva_La_Revolution]

6. Whooohoooo!

:bounce:

good start. Maybe prophetic that it was the first to go to electronic, and the first to switch back? :)

[Tiggeroshii]

9. ...and then it took another 4 years for all the other counties to catch on

...maybe?

Of course not all the counties have electronic voting still, I guess.. Hopefully they all switch back to paper VERY soon.

[AtomicKitten]

8. Back to the future of voting ---- paper ballots!!!!!

It's the ONLY way to ensure clean elections.

[Tom Joad]

10. Why can't they have both? touch screen with paper receipts?

I'm really asking not trying to make a statement. It would seem to me that the technology might make it more efficient, and if you had a reliable paper along with it (when there is a dispute as to outcome) then you have the best of both.

I am thinking perhaps if you have paper receipts, you might as well do away with the electronic devices, as it will just add to the costs? My guess, but someone who has studied this might suggest otherwise.
Other answers?

Btw, that's my county we are talkin about.

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. Paper receipts are not ballots

And can be invalidated as just receipts - the ballots are in the computer. We need paper BALLOTS, perhaps with machine counting that can be validated using a manual recount of the paper BALLOTs. This is a very important point.

Educate Your Local Freepers Today!
Buttons, Stickers, Magnets for brainy people
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Tom Joad]

14. So it could still be hybrid?

In my own mind, i envision i touch a screen, it prints a ballot. The machine will tabulate the votes. if there is no dispute as to outcome, the paper ballots have no need to be counted, but will be kept for a reasonable time in case there is a problem. if there is a dispute, then the paper ballots will count.

I should have said paper ballots, not receipts. Receipts implies something a voter takes home, ballots will be collected and kept safe.

What would be nice with paper ballots, especially if done by a machine... if i go into a voting booth and vote Yes on Prop A, a old fashion ballot shows i hit box #147 for example. I will have to look to make sure that #147 really corresponds to Yes on Prop A. So instead it would be cool to have a paper ballot print out that says this is who and what you voted for. Then i could correct if necessary. Some folks in Florida sure would have loved a system like that back in the year 2000!

[kster]

28. We are not even close to making electronic voting safe

"I don't think with today's technology we can have a voting system that is fully electronic that can be trusted," said Avi Rubin, a computer science professor. He will head a new Hopkins center called ACCURATE, short for A Center for Correct, Usable, Reliable, Auditable and Transparent Elections".



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=389293

[FormerDittoHead]

41. So let me get this straight (I think you might be onto something)...

Please get this image in my head straight...

You're not talking about printing receipts like a flimsy ATM receipt, but actually have the computer/machine punch / print out a readable, more substantial paper/card to be kept by the election board IN ADDITION to the electronic counting...

We get the advantages of instant counting, but have the paper audit trail...

It WOULD be more expensive, but I LIKE IT...

[JohnWxy]

15. Tom, even if you have reciepts, with electronic machines it can be

tallying something different than it gives you on your receipt. The only way you could check is if everybody in the precinct got together and recounted the votes using all your reciepts!

[Eric J in MN]

25. Canada counts plain paper ballots on Election Night.

The touchscreens aren't needed. People who use a touchscreen generally don't check the printout when there is one.

[autorank]

45. Thank you Eric J in MN. As usual, you're right on target. Canada-paper!!

Repeat this again and again. Canada does it in four hours! No machines, hand count, millions of ballots.

[seafan]

12. This is the ANSWER! Camp out at our county Elections Superv. offices!

In most areas of the U. S., local county elections supervisors choose which voting method to use.

If we are outside their doors and on their phones, demanding pen and paper voting for all upcoming elections, with immediate hand counts under direct bipartisan observation after the polls close, and the results telephoned in to the Secretary of State's office, THEY. WILL. NOT. IGNORE. US.


Goooo, California!!!

[Betsy Ross]

13. Yipeeeeeee!

I live in Alameda!

[JohnWxy]

16. This would be a good story to email MSM about. IF you go to

congress.org.media guide that site makes it easy to email!

[eppur_se_muova]

18. Great news! Off to the Greatest page with you. nt

[guidod]

19. Stay home all you hackers

and cheats we're going to start counting the votes again. FINALLY!!!!!!

[iconoclastNYC]

20. How backwards!

Geez... what is this Afghanistan?

[kster]

22. Sure wish I had the names

of the people who told me that you will never get

PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNTED AND RECORDED BY THE PEOPLE AT THE PRECINCT LEVEL !!!!!!!!!! :applause: :applause:

[Eric J in MN]

26. more

"So Piedmont is headed back to plain paper ballots, and so probably is Alameda, at least for the June elections."

http://www.orovillemr.com/news/bayarea/ci_3577250

[kster]

31. You just couldn't give me five minutes to gloat could ya

:rofl:

[ronnykmarshall]

27. Parts of L.A. county use paper.

I've been voting absentee for years now. I will NEVER use a touch-screen machine.

[DoYouEverWonder]

33. It is very important to vote in person

with a paper ballot.

Absentee voting is fraught with fraud. That's why the Repugs love AV so much and have made is so easy to vote absentee. Even if you mail in your ballot, you have no guarantee that it was received and/or recorded.

[ronnykmarshall]

35. Here's what you do.

Vote absentee and return you ballot in person.

[DoYouEverWonder]

39. Yes, that may work

but keep in mind in the 2004 over 10,000 absentee ballots (I think that was the #) were never delivered in FL by the Post Office. By the time the news got out to the voters that there was a problem, it was too late to request another ballot and many of these people didn't get to vote at all because they couldn't return to their precinct to vote in person. It was a royal mess that effected mostly students, who I assume would have a tendency to vote DEM.

[Amaryllis]

44. The paper ballots are still counted on scanners and tabulators made

by Diebold, etc. using trade secret software. We still have no way to verify the accuracy of results.

[senseandsensibility]

30. Woo hoo!

Great big kick!

[caligirl]

34. Local tv news did a woefully poor report on this, comments

of how backwards, going back in time, interviewed Elaine Grinnell, whose voicemail I have left messages on, talked about borrowing San Diego machines.

BUT not once did one word about the real and serious issues behind any of this get any air time. Not a word about the SoS or hacking or violations of law get a single word. Non compliance for the hearing or visually impaired, info I left in a voicemail for Elaine Grinnell, not a single word of it made the air.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[laugle]

36. Just in case some are not aware of it, you can become a PAV (permanent

absentee voter). All that is required is to vote in all elections, national and local.

My husband and I have been PAV's for about 5 years.

It's convenient and your ballot is sent directly to you and comes early.

[FrenchieCat]

37. Yeah...I'm in Alameda.....

Guess I don't have to do "absentee" anymore!

[Minnesota Libra]

40. Let's hear it for some leaders with brains. nt

[wryter2000]

43. That's where I live

Oaktown -- Barbara Lee country (also Pete Stark, who's pretty great). Alameda County also includes Berkeley.