At last, the warmongers are prepared to face facts & admit they were wrong

[Roland99]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article350104.ece

It has taken more than three years, tens of thousands of Iraqi and American lives, and $200bn (£115bn) of treasure - all to achieve a chaos verging on open civil war. But, finally, the neo-conservatives who sold the United States on this disastrous war are starting to utter three small words. We were wrong.

The second thoughts have spread across the conservative spectrum, from William Buckley, venerable editor of The National Review to Andrew Sullivan, once editor of the New Republic, now an influential commentator and blogmeister. The patrician conservative columnist George Will was gently sceptical from the outset. He now glumly concludes that all three members of the original "axis of evil" - not only Iran and North Korea but also Iraq - "are more dangerous than when that term was coined in 2002".

Neither Mr Buckley nor Mr Sullivan concedes that the decision to topple Saddam was intrinsically wrong. But "the challenge required more than deployable resources," the former sadly recognises. "The American objective in Iraq has failed."

For Mr Sullivan, today's mess is above all a testament to American overconfidence and false assumptions, born of arrogance and naïveté. But he too asserts, in a column in Time magazine this week, that all may not be lost.

More at the link.

A related article, too:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article350092.ece


Perle admitting errors?!?!

[leftyladyfrommo]

1. So Now that We Are Stuck in Quicksand do they have any

ideas for how to get back out of this mess?

Just saying "Ooops, we were wrong" doesn't seem like quite enough.

[skooooo]

2. DUH!

[indie_voter]

3. Arrogance of the war mongers who refused to listen to clear warnings

What happened should be no surprise to ANYBODY who had even the basic understanding of the politics of the region.

I can't tell you how many arguments I got in to during the run up, how many right wing nuts called me unpatriotic, misguided, etc.

IDIOTS, all of them.

I have NO sympathy for these people, they are as culpable as the administration, they allowed themselves to be deluded when all facts showed the stupidity of this venture.

[leftyladyfrommo]

4. They didn't allow themselves to be deluded - they led the way

[Roland99]

10. Exactly. They were delusional from the start and hypnotized the nation.

[indie_voter]

11. I think the Bush admin led the way and these guys went along for the ride

They (Sullivan and other idiots who "ra ra'd" the war) surrendered all critical thought and blindly followed these sociopaths.

Pearle of course is the exception as he was one of the F#$@# architects of this mess.

The right wing bloggers, MSM and other schmucks do not understand the region,they pretended they did, and refused to listen to people who had experience in the area. Instead they worshiped at the alter of Bush, and here we all are, paying for their crimes.

I have no sympathy or respect for their 9th inning mea culpas and the whole "we were mislead" mantra. No, they allowed themselves to be.

[Roland99]

12. It's the opposite. Go watch The Power of Nightmares

The neocons are 0-3 in their wild-assed claims and now they're going for 0-4.

http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares

[indie_voter]

19. The neocons got their goons in power, that is for sure.

However I think a lot of the media crazies like Sullivan and others who were banging the drum for the war allowed themselves to be blinded by the Bush admin (AKA the neocons). None of these media, right wing bloggers, etc understood the region, and refused to think past the 'shock and awe'.

Do I think Cheney,Pearle,Fukuyama and the other Neocon leaders knew it was going to be a 'slog'? Hell yes. They might be evil SOBs but they understood what they were doing and what they were getting us in.

That is why they played such a high risk PR game, getting these media people on their side, promising them something they knew they could not deliver. They needed the Sullivans, Hitchens, and others on their side to shut up the opposition, and they did their jobs very well.

However, had these media and RW bloggers exhibited one moment of independent thought they would have known this was all BS. As I said, I have no sympathy for them, they are as much to blame because they were culpable. They were the rank and file who made this happen.

However, I think what we're seeing now is the howls of outrage from some of these people for being lead down the garden path by people who were using them to manipulate the rest of the country. The 'average' American who bought in to this has to take responsibility too, because the truth was staring them in the face, but they were too blinded by vengeance, fear, and the personality of Bush to THINK.

Where I differ from the article is I don't think Sullivan, Buckley, Hitchens qualify as neocon leaders, they were the soldiers, who were of course GUILTY of getting us where we are now. So was that obnoxious lady in the grocery store who shouted down anybody who dared try to reason with her. LOL

[calimary]

17. Yeah, same thing happened to me. I was flipped off, told I was

a commie and a chicken and an appeaser and a Neville Chamberlain and a Saddam lover and an Osama lover and why didn't I just leave the country and move somewhere else - like France? My car was keyed, my tires were slashed, I was told it was EVER so much better that we were fighting them over there rather than here. I was told all the platitudes and buzzphrases and talking points. My answer was demanded "but DON'T you think the Iraqi people are BETTER OFF WITHOUT SADDAM?!?!??!!?? I was told that freedom isn't free and that I wasn't supporting the troops and that I was disloyal and a traitor. One angry emailer wanted to know "WHERE were you 9/11?" - in those exact words. I told him where I was DURING and AFTER 9/11 and tried to remind him about the value of prepositions and Cub Scout fund-raising drives for the 9/11 victims' families, and blood donations - in all of which I personally participated, along with my son, then a Cub Scout.

I, too, have no sympathy with these people - the ones whose immediate reaction was to get in-yer-face if you weren't lockstep behind them on every possible point. jerry falwell told me and everyone in America like me that WE were the ones responsible for 9/11 because of our love of privacy and liberty and our progressive opinions on the issues.

I try at all times to be compassionate and sympathetic, and empathetic when I can. However, when the injury is self-inflicted, especially by way of sheer stupidity, arrogance, and narrow-mindedness (sometimes flat-out CLOSED-mindedness) and the insistence that this is somehow personally decreed by God Himself, Who personally designated bush His anointed one, I have no patience or pity.

We told them the truth. We KEPT telling them the truth. We KEPT trying to help them into The Light. We NEVER GAVE UP trying to wake them up. They refused and willfully stayed asleep, even in the face of mounting evidence. NOW, especially, with everything we know, everything that's come out, and everything we said that wound up being verified over and over and over again, there's just NO excuse. NONE. Those who still cling to this shit are pathetic and contemptible, and are part of the PROBLEM, NOT of the SOLUTION.

Frankly, I'm still trying. I still believe that souls can be saved. Well, some, anyway. Like the little old lady down the street who declared proudly that she ALWAYS voted straight-ticket republi-CON, but she was becoming so disillusioned with the way her party and its boss were leading this country, ESPECIALLY regarding the war. People like her are souls that can be saved. Notice I did not say "will" be saved. CAN be saved, depending on whether people like her can wean themselves off a lifetime of bad habits (habitually voting republi-CON, that is). Those who can are those who are adult enough to see The Light, and to recognize and own up to being wrong.

For others, however, face-saving is far more important. They'll never admit we were on the money and bush was wrong. But like MP George Galloway told smarmy normie coleman in committee that day - "everything I said about the war turned out to be right, and everything YOU said turned out to be wrong." There's a WHOLE BUNCH of us here at DU who can stand with Galloway and say the same thing. And, generall speaking, we're no rocket scientists or political insiders or foreign policy professionals. We're just civilians who gave a damn enough to look at the facts, and the lies, and who was selling the lies, in a clear-eyed manner. If WE knew this war was going to fail, why didn't the so-called "experts"? Sometimes you don't need a PhD from Stanford and a fancy, high-fallutin' first name and Ferragamo shoes to know which way the wind is blowing.

[Roland99]

21. "Freedom isn't free"...Ohhhh...I hate that ribbon/sticker!!!!

It's the most ridiculous, narrow-minded, Kool-Aid drinking, BS piece of propaganda that's out there today!

[calimary]

34. I saw some big-ass pick-up truck in the neighborhood with that one

and a whole mess of others and it made me so incredibly angry that I left a note on the windshield: "Is your yellow ribbon buying them more body armor!??!?!?!?!?" All that "support our troops" crap. Anybody who REALLY supports the troops will NOT squander their precious lives by sending them to a war we were LIED into fighting - a war that was UNNECESSARY TO BEGIN WITH. THAT'S how you support the troops. You send them into harm's way for a cause that's not frickin' BOGUS, for reasons that you didn't just MAKE UP because you had a personal hard-on against another country's leader.

[Roland99]

37. I need to do that. Start keeping some pamphlets in the car.

[indie_voter]

23. I feel so much rage!

I used to belong to an on-line mom group, I had to quit during 'shock and awe' because I couldn't stand listening to these uninformed idiots preaching the gospel they heard on FOX.

I'll never forget this one woman who claimed she was very well informed, and she KNEW that as soon as our military entered the country, Iraqis would lay down their arms and be thankful we were there. FOOL!!!

Now the people who banged the drums, the Fox network, Andrew Sullivan, Buckley, etc are trying to back away because they gobbled up what they were told by their gods. It is disgusting.

They've damaged our nation and now are trying to run away from the consequences.

[Darkhawk32]

5. Kicked and nom'd! n/t

[NewInNewJ.]

6. I'll garun damn tee you Bush , Rumfeld & Cheney will never admit they are

wrong.

[MadMaddie]

14. No they won't ....but when they are in front of the Hague...

they will cry like the babies they are!!

[livvy]

7. These were good articles. I read them earlier this morning.

I liked the way PNAC and its signatories were brought into the article:

This is no ordinary thesis, but apostasy on a grand scale. Mr Fukuyama, after all, was the most prominent intellectual who signed the 1997 "Project for the New American Century", the founding manifesto of neo-conservatism drawn up by William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard, the house journal of the neo-conservative movement.

The PNAC aimed to cement for all time America's triumph in the Cold War, by increasing defence spending, challenging regimes that were hostile to US interests, and promoting freedom and democracy around the world. Its goal was "an international order friendly to our security, prosperity and values".



The fact, however, remains that future Bush policymakers who signed the PNAC nine years ago are now mostly gone. Paul Wolfowitz, the war's most relentless and starry-eyed promoter, has moved on to the World Bank, silent about the mess he did so much to create. Richard Perle, leader of the resident hawks department at the American Enterprise Institute think-tank here, has vanished from the scene. Lewis Libby meanwhile has stepped down as Vice-President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, to focus his energy on staying out of jail.

Yet another signatory was Zalmay Khalilzad, now the US ambassador to Iraq. This week even he - Afghan born and the one original neo-con who had the region in his blood - admitted that the invasion had opened "a Pandora's box" that could see the Iraq conflict spread across the entire Middle East.


Now, how to get this stuff into our media, so that the average American sees it?

[Roland99]

8. That, my friend, is the $64,000 question.

RawStory (Larisa, especially) is working their butts off to help expose the neocon nightmare.

The M$M isn't biting. At least until it will make them ratings.

[calimary]

35. But remember Olbermann did have a story about Fukuyama.

Quite an extensive one, just after his apologia came out, last week some time. But that's pretty much been it. I haven't monitored a lot of the media about this, and I hardly ever watch the so-called "big three" anymore, so I don't know what they're covering. But it WAS on "Countdown" with Keith.

[Roland99]

36. Well, until Brian Williams or Charlie Gibson or Bob Schieffer are talking.

it ain't out there.

[BillZBubb]

9. What is even more pathetic is that

these cretins who blindly pushed for an invasion and were totally wrong then, have the nerve to act as if their opinions on what we should do now are correct.

They have proven they know nothing and are dangerous. Their advice now is just a good as it was then--not worth a rat's ass.

[magellan]

13. I can't figure out

...how to pluralize "POS" properly, but that's what the Neocons/PNACers are.

They made "mistakes"?!?!? Perle, honey, unless you and your buds can stop this train, try the word TREASON on for size.

[KansDem]

15. "...to utter three small words. We were wrong."

Here are three more small words for the neo-Con fascists:

"go f*ck yourselves"
"you are liars"
"we knew better"
"we have evidence"
"you're under arrest"
"call your lawyers"
"twenty to life"
"report to prison"
"eat shit and die"

ok, ok, the last line has four words, but I thought it was necessary.

________
*And "you're" is actually two words (contraction for "you are"), but for the sake of this exercise, I counted it as one.

[eppur_se_muova]

25. "Eat shit, die." Problem solved. nt

[KansDem]

26. Hey, thanks!

:hi:

Also, could I have typed: "Eat shit & die"?

Would the ampersand be counted as a word?

But your solution works nicely!

[Arugula Latte]

16. We.Fucking.Told.Them.So.

:grr:

[calimary]

18. Damned. Fucking. Straight.

:grr:

[KansDem]

20. Funny. Nowhere in this article is the word "Republican."

After all, it was the GOP who beat the drums for war. Why no mention of them?

[deutsey]

22. Guess the "focus group" was correct after all.

:eyes:

[sutz12]

24. Not to worry....

they'll start blaming the Lib'ruls for not supporting them fanatically enough. :evilgrin:

[Roland99]

27. And they'll blame the media for being so liberal and negative.

[donkeyotay]

28. Relax and enjoy it

Perles of Wisdom

In USA 'Today, May 2, 2003 "Relax, Celebrate Victory"

This was a war worth fighting. It ended quickly with few civilian casualties and with little damage to Iraq's cities, towns or infrastructure. It ended without the Arab world rising up against us, as the war's critics feared, without the quagmire they predicted, without the heavy losses in house-to-house fighting they warned us to expect. It was conducted with immense skill and selfless courage by men and women who will remain until Iraqis are safe, and who will return home as heroes....

Iraqis are freer today and we are safer. Relax and enjoy it.

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/801

[Roland99]

29. That's the Bob Knight stance on rape, too. Remember that?

Something along the lines of:

"If rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it."

Women's groups nationwide were outraged by Bob Knight's comments during an April, 1988 interview with Connie Chung in which Knight said, "I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it." Knight's comment was in reference to an Indiana basketball game in which he felt the referees were making poor calls against the Hoosiers. Knight claimed he called for Chung to not use the comment in the story immediately after saying it and Chung agreed it would not be used. A crowd of about 300 protested on the Indiana University campus.

[donkeyotay]

30. Interesting. I knew it sounded particularly disgusting

but didn't make the connection. America was raped. So was Iraq. Iran, anyone?

[0007]

31. Read this bullshit from the article

Those left in the administration - primarily Mr Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, are not so much neo-conservatives as "Hobbesian unilateralists", concerned to protect and advance US national interests in a lawless and violent world, whatever it takes.

As for Condoleezza Rice, never a signed-up member of the movement but mostly sympathetic to it when she was the President's security adviser - she has metamorphosed from hawk into pragmatist with her move from the White House to the State Department.

[Roland99]

32. Kindasleazy Lies a "pragmatist"????

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[0007]

33. ....ain't that a gasser?

Where do these writers pick up this kind of bullshit?

[truthisfreedom]

38. we protested in the streets. we had signs on our lawns for months...

we knew. we told them over and over. we cried out for no war!

we were not naive. we were not overzealous, or arrogant, or insane. it was bushco's lies that led us into war in Iraq. it was bushco's lies that got them what they wanted... a completely destabilized Iraq, a horrifying never-ending war, and thousands and thousands of dead and maimed innocents.

the blood is on THEIR hands, not ours. IT'S NOT OUR WAR.

[OneTwentyoNine]

39. Why? Have they made enough CASH off of this one?

Time to move on to Iran,a whole nother bales of CASH for War profiters.