Democrats ditch pro-choice agenda

[McKenzie]

Well well, is this going to be divisive or does a bear crap in the woods?

<snip>

Senator Hillary Clinton, apparently grooming herself for a presidential bid in 2008, has dropped her strident pro-choice rhetoric for a more nuanced approach. At a rally in 2005, Clinton spoke of the need for both sides on the issue to work to prevent unwanted pregnancies because abortion represented “a sad, even tragic, choice.”

</snip>

http://www.sundayherald.com/54533

Edited to add this snippet that might change the tenor of the headline:

<snip>

The liberal think-tank Third Way has reportedly issued a memo advising Democratic politicians to rephrase their wording on abortion. Instead of talking about a woman’s right to choose, the memo suggests that Democrat candidates should tell voters that they support “personal liberty” but accept a “moral responsibility” to reduce the number of abortions.

</snip>

[SheilaT]

1. Since when is Hillary all Democrats?

n/t

[murielm99]

4. How does that mean Hillary, or all Democrats, have

abandoned choice?

Abortion is a sad choice. We do need to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Bill said it best: abortion should be safe, legal and rare. That doesn't mean he abandoned choice.

[SheilaT]

7. The header for this thread is

Democrats Ditch Pro-Choice agenda. It's my point exactly that Hillary is not all Democrats. Most of us still support pro-choice.

[unblock]

2. kinda sounds like "safe, legal, and rare". so what's changed?

[still_one]

3. I will NOT vote for Hillary, but this position is NOT anti-choice

The fact that an abortion is a sad tragic choice, does NOT mean it should not be legal

[The Magistrate]

5. That Is An Odd Way To Frame The Statement, Sir

Most people view abortion as a sad event; generally even the woman who finds it the best course for her to take feels so about the action. A statement such as this hardly indicates abandoning support for women's right to choose that course.

[complain jane]

9. Agreed.

[oasis]

64. You're 100% correct Sir, on every point.(n/t)

[Mythsaje]

6. I've said it for years...

No one is PRO abortion. And it would be best if people made other choices when possible. But it's NOT the business of religious or moralistic meddlers to decide for other people. They have to have good reasons to make other choices, and nothing this administration has ever done has made it any easier on anyone faced with these decisions.

Can't afford a kid right now? Tough shit. You're preggo, so you're having it. Can't afford it? Tough. You can't have welfare. Or a living wage. Or cheap childcare. Or healthcare.

Hillary's triangulating. I think she's going to run. I really do.

[MissMarple]

10. I think you're right. Another arrghh.....

she would make a good president, IF she can get elected. Personally, I think there are better candidates.

[IndianaGreen]

46. Hillary will be attacked from both the left and the right and...

she will fail to win independent voters to her side, which together with the fact that she is not Big Dog and lacks all of his charm, translates into a major electoral defeat.

[saracat]

11. Actually, If you have been reading lately

there are quite a few of us who are pro-abortion.I am pro abortion the same way I am pro any medical procedure that is necessary. Abortion may be a sad even to some. It may be "tragic" for some, but to some people it is just a medical procedure, and they have the right to express that as well. I support the fact that not all women think this is a "sad" choice. Several women have posted lately that their abortions did NOT cause them grief and they felt glad that they were able to have a "choice'. I resent the broad brush of NO one is pro-abortion.That was the phrase we used in the sixties, and we meant what we said. I still mean it.I support abortions for whomever deems them necessary, just as much as I support whatever surgeries I have had to maintain my health.

[Mythsaje]

12. Seems an unfortunate choice to make...

And it strikes me as a weird thing to be proud of it. I don't consider willfully terminating a potential human life to be 'just another medical procedure.'

But it's not as though I'm in danger of ever having to choose one.

:shrug:

[saracat]

14. But therein lies the "choice".Not all of us consider it

"willfully terminating a potential human life ". Some would consider premature ejaculation or menstruation to be "willfully terminating a potential human life". And the right to have that opinion is just as valid as those who consider it " willfully terminating a potential human life".

I personally have never had an abortion, and don't know what I would do if I had been in that position.But what I might do has NO relevance to what someone else might do and ought not to. I spoke to a women just tonight that was furious that her daughter was talked out of her abortion by a pro-life doctor. She has regretted her decision for five years! And so has her daughter! The child was given up in an open adoption and they visit it. Reactions come in all types. There is no cookie cutter. Not all women consider it an "unfortunate choice" Some , like this women , are angry when they are deprived of their "choice" to give birth. This mother was a 16 year old girl, who now has a 5 year old son.She had a single night of experience and was forced to be a mother by an uncaring physician.

[xchrom]

25. i'm with you saracat.

[Erika]

13. I will simply refuse to pay a cent in taxes to a government who

treats me as chattel and who controls my productive rights. I don't think I will be the only one. The GOP is running fast from the issue they inflamed.

[T Wolf]

20. A-M-E-N saracat!

The half-assed approach that says "I'm 'pro-choice' for others but I would not do it myself" includes a value-judgement that those who "choose to terminate a potential life" are doing something wrong.

It is a medical procedure. Bothing more. Nothing less. The "pro-choice" view has weakened the right to this particular aspect of medical care more than the out-right banners on the right.

Inch by inch.

[anitar1]

22. Thank You, Saracat. I feel the same way and have never

regretted or felt sad ect about having mine. It is my life and my decision. Will not go into reasons, but simply thanked the goddess that it was legal.

[VirginiaDem]

33. Agreed. n/t

[wordpix2]

62. thanks, saracat, I too am PRO-ABORTION. It's not the best method of birth

control but people make mistakes and women should be free to make their own choice.

Don't you love it that repukes want "smaller government" and "freedom" but when it comes to abortion, they stick their noses right in women's private parts and private lives---talk about intrusive government!---and they're perfectly ready, willing and able to tell women what they can and can't do---how's that for freedom?

If we need to rephrase "pro-choice" then I say let's phrase it, "pro-freedom and against government intrusion." That might appeal to the Libertarians and Repukes, too.

[BigYawn]

82. Saracat, I respect your opinions, so would you care to explain how

a late term abortion is beneficial to a mother's
health? Just to clarify my position of abortion, I
am 100% for choice in the first half of pregnancy,
aprox 4.5 months.

May be I am wrong, and please correct me if I am,
but the what I understand about late term abortions
(I am talking about the 9th month) is that the surgeon
kills the unborn fetus inside the womb by piercing its
head. Then the bleeding and dead fetus is delivered
thru the birth canal or c-section. How exactly does
that help the health of the mother? Would it make any
difference if the fetus is delivered alive thru the
birth canal or C-section? Please educate me and I may
even switch to pro-late term abortions.

I know for a fact that almost all fetuses delivered
by artificial means in the 9th month of pregnancy can
live and breathe on their own.

[saracat]

84. Thank you, but do you sincerely believe that most women would go through

the physical and mental agony of a late term abortion but for a threat to their own mental or physical health? Late term abortions are customarily performed only on fetus's that have no hope of survival (Hydrocephalic or born with no brains or a toxic condition). They most certainly cannot "breathe on their own".There would be no benefit to either the mother or the child to proceed with such a delivery. I saw an interview with a mother on Public Television where she had to abort a much wanted child in its eighth month and it was agonizing to listen to her story. I cannot recall what the condition was but the child would have been born in agony and would have lived only hours.Late term abortions account for an infinitesimally small number of abortions.This is a very serious medical procedure that is only performed under the most desperate of circumstances.

[BigYawn]

85. So you are saying that a defective baby when allowed to be born alive

suffers more pain than when the physician pierces
the 9 month old fetus's braqin with a sharp instrument?

I still do not understand how killing the baby in a
most gruesome way and then delivering it helps the
mother's health. The baby has to be delivered one way
or the other. But you are convinced somehow it helps
the mother when a bleeding and dead baby is delivered
versus delivering the same baby alive with the same
delivery procedure? Making no sense whatsoever.

And if only a very few late a bortions are performed,
where is the big loss of choice for women? Heck it is
extremely small number anyway. You and I both agree
that all early pregnency abortions should be legal.

What bothers me the most about late term abortions is
that the fetus has a well developed nervous system and
is proven to feel the same level of pain as a baby
born alive. I just shudder at the thought of piercing
anyone's brain when alive.

But then again I am not a woman. May be it does not
bother some women.

[saracat]

86. You are right. You are NOT a woman and maybe you can't be

expected to epmhathize with the pain a women must go through when forced to terminate a "wanted' pregnancy that is late term.I am NOT a physician. I know that humane methods are used to euthanize the fetus that do NOT cause it pain. That is an RW argument that is being perpetuated to chip away at choice.The fact that it is an exteremely small number doesn't marginalize its importance to those women who are affected. I happen to have a rare medical condition. I still feel it is important that a cure be found. And to me, it is just as important as a cure for cancer.

"I just shudder at the thought of piercing
anyone's brain when alive".

Well then, brain surgery in general must make you shudder. Oddly my condition has an experimental surgery that involves cutting peices of the brain and I would volunteer in a hot second.And I assure you, I have a fully developed nervous system.

And BTW, if you had read my post you would know that the majority of late term abortions are performed because the fetus has NO brain. And without one ,it doesn't feel pain. But whatever don't let facts get in your way.

[BigYawn]

90. Alright Saracat, lets end this discussion by atleast agreeing on this:

It is far better if abortions are performed early,
no later than half term.

If an extreme defect in the unborn fetus is discovered
late the pregnency, there should be an option avaiable
to abort, so long it is done humanely. I would go so far
as to allow euthanasia of a baby who is missing a
functioning brain if that is what the mother wishes.
By the way, I was against keeping that woman (forgot the
name) alive who was so obviously brain dead but was kept
alive against her husband's wishes by feeding tubes.

No late term abortion procedure should be allowed which
kills the fetus by puncturing its head or body.

Thank you for taking time to answer my posts.

[saracat]

92. You are welcome. However,

I am not competant medically to make a judgement on any type of medical procedure as to which method should be preferable.Therefore I cannot agree with making a judgement call against puncturing a head or body. What if it is the best way to perform the surgery? I once had a growth that had to be removed in 28 pieces! I also don't think it would ever be my position to "allow" any kind of abortion. That is the perogative of the woman and the woman alone. It is her life and her body. I do understand your sensitivity to this question, but I do feel that certain questions are not the business of anyone but those persons involved.

[Bridget Burke]

89. Why aren't you using the term "Partial Birth Abortion"

That's the non-Medical term pushed by the Anti-Choice gang. Here's the story of one woman who had a late term abortion:

As we sat there, she said that the ultrasound indicated that the fetus had an open neural tube defect, meaning that the spinal column had not closed properly. It was a term I remembered skipping right over in my pregnancy book, along with all the other fetal anomalies and birth defects that I thought referred to other people's babies, not mine. She couldn't tell us much more. We would have to go to the main hospital in Boston, which had a more high-tech machine and a more highly trained technician. She tried to be hopeful -- there was a wide range of severity with these defects, she said. And then she left us to cry.

www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/01/25/my_late_term_abortion/

The procedure you delight in describing was not used. Perhaps you ought to educate yourself.

[goreo8]

49. Hillary's triangulating

all over the place. She makes my head spin! Aargh

[MissMarple]

8. Why don't they support social and economic policies that limit the need?

And why don't the Republicans support the social and economic policies that limit the necessity? I realize the Dems do, so but we need to clarify the message. Hilary isn't doing that. Arrghh....

Why do I sometimes relate with pirates? ;)

[radio4progressives]

15. I'm No Third Way Fan... But Personal Freedom /Liberty works fine with me

and it is a moral responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly.

On this point, i have no qualms, and i don't see this language as abondoning "pro-choice" ...

the term "pro-choice" is loaded and has a negative ring to it..

if HRC feels compelled to do a kabuki dance around the issue, that's fine i can't quibble with that given how difficult this issue is.

So long as she doesn't get into sort of position that seeks to ban abortions, or make it illegal. I don't get that sense of where this is going.

[SaveElmer]

36. You know...

We have been playing on the anti-choice people turf on this issue for so long...

I mean even pro-choice people refer to their opponents as "pro-life". Time to change that if you ask me...move the debate to our turf.

[radio4progressives]

50. Yes, I agree..

it also breaks my heart whenever i hear one of our people repeat the GOP meme - on whatever the issues are about.. which only suggests how thorough our own message has been allowed to be savaged..and forgotten. :hi:

[SaveElmer]

51. You got that right!!...

Happens way too much!!!

:hi:

[ReadTomPaine]

16. Hopefully, she's referring to "Safe, legal & rare" like Bill did years ago

Rather than any softening on the legal aspects.

[SaveElmer]

37. That's absolutely what she is doing...

Movig the terms of the debate. The term anti-choice people chose for themselves "pro-life" has become accepted...we need to change the language of the debate!

[Cascadian]

17. Oh for crissakes!

This is exactly what I am talking about! The Democrats should just stop moving towards the right. Quit acting like they are Republican wannabes. The Creator help us if Hillary gets the nomination in 2008. Isn't anybody getting sick of this B.S.?


John

[Greyhound]

38. millions upon millions, they're just not being heard.

Rest assured, however, that unlike OBL, they will be hearing from us soon.

[SaveElmer]

39. How is this moving to the right...

It is an attempt to move the debate off of anti-choice turf where it has been for many years. WHy do you think the term"pro-life" to describe them has become so accepted. This is no different that safe, legal, and rare...just trying to re-orient the debate, cast it in larger terms...

[ProSense]

18. Scotland's award-winning independent newspaper

is the only paper carrying this story? The headline doesn't even match the story.

[sandnsea]

19. It is a "personal liberty" issue

Reproductive freedom. I've got no qualms with that at all and thought it should be framed that way years ago.

[DanCa]

21. Abortion rights was an election issue during the 2004 campaign.

As I recall many pro choice voters ditched Senator Kerry for "greener" pastures. As I recall many pro choice voters ditched Senator Kerry and voted for Dubya, the Liberterian, and the Green party anyway. It seems to me that the pro choice issue didn't leave the democratic party but the pro choice voter did. This is the consequence of the last election cycle and I for one am tired of having the democrats get blamed for everything by people who didn't vote for Senator Kerry.

[Rowdyboy]

23. What a bogus, crappy piece of journalistic trash....

Hillary has "dropped her strident pro-choice rhetoric"? When is the last time you remember Hillary Clinton making a ":strident pro-choice" speech. These buffoons just echo the shit they hear spew from Limbaugh's mouth. Not worth even considering.

[MadHound]

24. Watch closely friends, we're about to see a miracle

We're about to see all suggestions of a Democratic spine on this issue dissolve right before our very eyes. Rather than fighting for womens' rights, the Dems are going to slowly but surely back away from abortion, trying to convince their followers that 67% of the people who favor a pro-choice stance are in the minority on this issue, and that the only way to regain seats in Congress and the White House is to be just as anti-abortion as the 'Pugs. What's even sadder is how many people are going to buy that.

This transformation may not be fully completed in time for the fall elections, but it will be in full bloom come '08, mark my words.

[blondeatlast]

26. Isn't HRC's position here the position of nearly every American?

Sounds like Third Way has simply figured out a way to wrest the rhetoric from the Right.

I sure as hell can't argue with that.

[MaineDem]

27. Horrible headline

"Personal liberty" vs. "Right to Choose"?

I have no trouble with that.

Safe, legal, and rare works for me.

[blondeatlast]

28. If you don't think the press manipulates, especially headlines,

here's your perfect example.

How many people won't bother to read on? The article is more balanced.

[dansolo]

29. "moral responsibility"?

Sounds like code speak for abstinence.

[democracyindanger]

34. Your decoder ring is broken.

[Clark2008]

30. Well, I have to admit that I agree that we should be

reframing the debate.

"Personal liberty" or "personal freedom" to choose reframes the debate BACK to where it should be: a matter of a woman's PERSONAL right to choose what she wants to do with her body.

And, Hillary? Aaaaahhhh.... she's become SUCH a shill!

[Blaze Diem]

31. OK..I'll throw this point of view out to you to consider...

Be nice to me..this is just a theory...
-------------------------------

Since the abortion issue is certain to become the token GOP divisory subject in 2008 as in all other elections...
well perhaps this stance then leaves a percentage of anti-abortion voters some room to consider all else the Dem candidate has to say, without immediately slammming the door to their agenda for change based on where they stand on this overused (but proven effective) political issue.

[Blaze Diem]

32. ...but then maybe I'm just wishing really hard that the Dems

would be cleverly divising ways to let the hot air out of the GOP airbags come election time..
The abortion issue is a standard m.o. for their agenda no matter which election it is.
Dividing sides against each other, garners a certain percentage of votes regardless of what else is on the political plate.

I'm hoping SOME Dem forsees this and prempts its usage, somewhat, in 2008.
Maybe, stating the abortion in this manner is another angle to diffuse the GOP standard drumbeat.

maybe..?

[SaveElmer]

35. I have no problem with that...

We've been playing on the anti-choice people's turf for so long...to the point where their term for their position "pro-life" has become accepted. Time to change the language of the debate...move it to our turf.

[IndianaGreen]

40. May you get pregnant and face that choice alone!

as most women have to face, then find out that you have to travel a good distance to find an abortion clinic.

What other rights will you, and Hillary, will gladly give away? How about sending gays to the gas chambers next?

[SaveElmer]

43. Are you kidding?

Show me where any of this indicates a lessening of commitment to choice. It is an effort to move the debate away from the turf of "pro-lifers" (why do you think that term has become accepted?)

Take a look at Hillary's (along with most Democrats) records on this issue, including efforts to widen access to pregnancy counseling and contraception...before spouting off.

And that last comment was WAY out of line. You might want to think before opening your trap and displaying your ignorance for all to see.

[SaveElmer]

44. BTW...

You just suggested I would not have a problem sending my sister to the gas chamber...

[Radical Activist]

41. Changing language is not changing the agenda.

What a misleading, alarmist headline.

[AtomicKitten]

42. Nuance is for thinkers.

And abortions do represent a sad and tragic choice particularly when birth control and education could prevent them.

There is nothing wrong with being more thoughtful and precise in the wording; the Democratic Party will still remain pro-choice.

Heads are more than a hat rack.

[IndianaGreen]

45. It was nuance that beat Kerry in 2004

Let's not go down the path of nuance again! Even Kerry has ditched it in his recent speeches, preferring a focused message.

[AtomicKitten]

47. Nuance beat Kerry?

More like in-your-face ham-handed 527s.

[SaveElmer]

48. Don't bother...

This guy seems to be all about sloganeering. It doesn't seem as though he has even read the OP. If you look above he accused me of wanting to ditch our rights one by one...then asks me what I would want next...gays in gas chambers?

[IndianaGreen]

54. "I voted for it, before I voted against it"

Does that ring an atomic bell?

[Atman]

58. That wasn't "nuancing." It was a very stupid choice of words.

There is a big difference!

[w4rma]

52. Hillary's problem is she is trying to be a chameleon instead of explaining

her position. She is trying to use right-wing rhetoric to explain pro-choice, but this just makes her appear untrustworthy. She needs to be pro-choice while *adding* ways to reduce abortions in America, thereby throwing anti-abortionists enough of a bone to support her on economic issues.

As long as she is talking like a right-winger, without explaining her positions well, I *will not* ever support her.

Note that her team *must* realize that most Americans are pro-choice, therefore headlines like this won't help her candidacy.

[SaveElmer]

55. The terms the abortion debate have been cast in...

Have not favored our side. Why do you think the term "pro-life" is so accepted. There is nothing wrong with, in fact it makes alot of sense to recast the debate on turf more favorable to issues we are strong on.

[w4rma]

61. Polls shows most Americans are pro-choice.

Polls also show most Americans agree with Democrats on the issues.
All Dems need to do is to show the anti-abortionists, who support Dems on other issues, the best way to reduce abortions in America is through funding social programs rather than sending abortions underground.
If the voter doesn't believe in supporting social programs, they aren't going to vote Democrat, anyway.

[IndianaGreen]

63. Unfortunately, the Beltway Democrats are not in sync with public

For some strange reason, they refrain from talking about ending the war in Iraq, or abortion rights, or gay rights.

Why is that?

I was surprised to hear Kerry speak of going after bin Laden and bringing the troops back from Iraq. Why aren't more Democrats saying that?

[Atman]

56. Right Wingers don't nuance. They lie.

I think you're being too harsh. This is a difficult issue all the way around. I don't think anyone is going to be fooled into thinking Hillary's anti-choice here. The purpose in changing the language is to help eliminate sound-bite answers the GOP can use against us.

[SaveElmer]

57. Well put...

The debate has been fought on the anti-choicers turf for quite a while. To the point where "pro-life" is the accepted term to their opposition to abortion.

[Atman]

60. See, I'm not the anti-Hillary demon you guys make me out to be!

PM coming...

[w4rma]

66. Couching arguments in anti-choice rhetoric is bad. However

she could boldly give a pro-choice position while emphasizing the need to reduce abortions and while emphasizing that the best way to reduce abortions is through funding social programs that reduce the demand for them, instead of illegalizing them and sending abortions underground.

[Atman]

69. Didn't I basically just say that?

Not basically. In fact, I think I DID say that!

[IndianaGreen]

59. Yeah, lets' endorse Bob Casey's anti-choice, anti-gay, and prowar agenda!

In Pennsylvania, the frontrunner in a closely watched senate race is a Democrat, Bob Casey, who is poised to unseat the conservative incumbent, Rick Santorum. Casey happens to be a pro-life opponent of abortion rights, but he enjoys the full backing of the Democratic party establishment.

http://www.sundayherald.com/54533

Have a happy hetero weekend!

[skipos]

67. You think the democratic tent isn't big enough for any pro-life people?

I don't. There is a big difference between a democrat who is also pro-life like Casey, and knuckledragging bible thumpers like Napoli, who seem to be more obsessed with abortion than anything else.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june06/abortion_3-03.html

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Napoli says most abortions are performed for what he calls "convenience." He insists that exceptions can be made for rape or incest under the provision that protects the mother's life. I asked him for a scenario in which an exception may be invoked.

BILL NAPOLI: A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life.

[IndianaGreen]

70. Casey would ban abortions, and he said he would have voted for Alito

He is not just a passive actor in here, he is another Xtian jihadist with a "D" after his name!

[skipos]

77. Please show me where Casey is actively pursuing an abortion ban

If he would have voted for Alito, I disagree with that. Feingold supported Roberts and I disagree with that. Kucinich and Dean have supported flag burning bans and I disagree with that. However, since I am not a single issue voter, not a cut-off-my-nose-to-spite-my-face voter, I still support them.

Daily Kos has an interesting article on Casey.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/23/93221/9214

Nader 2000 voters felt that there was "no difference" between Gore and Bush, and it is safe to say that @ 85% of them learned they were wrong by the time 2004 rolled around. I hope PA voters don't make the same mistake with Casey vs. Santorum in 2006. The differences between those two are enormous.

[IndianaGreen]

78. Where is the single issue? Can't you count?

Abortion rights, LGBT rights, peace now!

I counted 3 right there!

[skipos]

79. Now tell me how many things you agree with Santorum on.

What did you think of the KOS article? And if you could find links to the work that Casey is putting in trying to ban abortion, I'd like to see it.

[IndianaGreen]

80. Zilch, nothing, nada!

Santorum is another Opus Dei puke!

[Atman]

53. Heck, I don't know anybody who is "pro-abortion"

That is a Republican gimmick, to demonize democrats. There is nothing wrong with any dem candidate saying we should work to reduce abortions. We should! Who the heck is going to advocate working for MORE abortions! It may be "nuancing," but it ain't very subtle...it is simply using the language correctly. If a reporter asks for further clarification, and keeps hammering, Hillary (or any dem candidate) should be able to say "Look, the question is whether or not abortions should be made an illegal, back-alley procedure by the Supreme Court, putting the lives of many American women unnessecarily at risk. Why would we/should we expend the time and effort to criminalize this legal procedure when the time, effort and expense would save far more lives if it were focused on health care and educational resources which might someday make abortion a choice no woman would have to make?"

Is that so bad? Doesn't sound like the candidate would be giving away anyone's rights. Just the opposite...standing up for our rights NOW, and the rights of the babies who'll be saved in the future.

(edited for formatting error)

[Mythsaje]

76. That's what I thought until I said it on THIS thread...

Guess I was wrong.

[AX10]

65. "personal liberty" & "moral responsibility" = Safe, Rare, and Legal.

[IndianaGreen]

68. The government shouldn't decide the abortion issue in the first place!

Why can't you guys get such a simple fact as that!

Did you know that Soviet women had more abortion rights in 1920 than American women do in 2006?

[AX10]

74. and again:

"personal liberty" & "moral responsibility" = Safe, Rare, and Legal.
-That's how I feel about abortion.

If it does make you feel any better, I do oppose the death penalty.

[AX10]

73. and again:

"personal liberty" & "moral responsibility" = Safe, Rare, and Legal.
-That's how I feel about abortion.

If it does make you feel any better, I do oppose the death penalty.

[Atman]

71. Come to think of it, even the headline of this article is bad

The article doesn't say that the democrats are ditching anything. They're merely changing a campaign strategy which will help their agenda. More "liberal media" bullshit to get us in-fighting, and give GOP fence-sitters the message that there is no reason to vote Democratic Party.

[IndianaGreen]

75. Democrats voted for abortion ban in South Dakota!

How many of the Beltway Democrats have condemned the South Dakota abortion ban?

[mtnsnake]

72. Oh boy. It's always Hillary's fault, even though she's fighting for Dems

lives and the life of our Party.

So what if she's doing what she thinks is necessary to put a Dem in the White House. It's not as if the rhetoric we've used in the past, concering abortion, has gotten us anywhere. No one, including Hillary Clinton, is remotely suggesting that a woman shouldn't have the freedom to do to her body as she pleases, yet by the time this thread is finished and digested, half the readers will think she's as anti-abortion as Jerry Falwell.

Hillary Clinton is for a woman's freedom of choice, period, when it comes to this issue. Her rhetoric, as to some abortions being sad, is just one way she's trying to temper an issue that seems to cost us more than any other issue. What's she supposed to do to make everyone happy, jump up and down and tell everyone how great abortions are? Good gawd.

[flaminbats]

81. Why does pro-choice mean pro-baby killer?

Republican would have voters believe that Democrats support rape, murder, and terrorism. The heart of this argument is that abortion is nothing more than the crucifixion of innocent embryos, and that all who would allow abortion would have allowed Jesus Christ to be sacrificed by Rome.

Democrats must be pro-choice and pro-life. Voters need to hear this repeatedly and Democrats need to incorporate this into our message. We are pro-life because we oppose this endless bloodshed in Iraq, we will not stand around while people across the world die of starvation, nor will we allow basic healthcare to be denied to those who are least able to pay. A women's period is not murder, denying treatment to someone weakened from cancer is murder!

Let Republicans call us murderers and baby killers all they wish, but dirty politics is a two-way street. If Democrats want to win a fight, we need to punch back..and make our opponents feel more of the pain in every election! :spank:

[mmonk]

83. The third way is not liberal.

Neither are the "front runner" democrats created by the third way and the US media.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

88. Wow! Really nice. Agree to differ do ya!

You might try phrasing things a bit more cordially in order to get folks to agree with you.This is just about the rudest post I have ever seen on DU. And directed at a whole thread no less. Bizarre is the word that comes to mind.

[Douglas Carpenter]

91. Hillary's actual Senate voting record on abortion

I am NOT a fan of Hillary Clinton. I do not want her to be the Democratic nominee in 2008. If she becomes the nominee I think she would almost certainly lose and then progressives will be blamed for years and years to come claiming that she was the left's candidate and she lost because she was too liberal. --Although I would support her or almost any Democratic nominee in the general election but not the primaries.

still here is her record on the pro-choice debate. I think it speaks for itself.

link:

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=WNY99268

2005 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2004.

2003-2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Right to Life Committee 0 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Democrats for Life of America 0 percent in 2003-2004.

2003 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2003.

2001-2002 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Right to Life Committee 0 percent in 2001-2002.

2001 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2001.

1996-2003 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Planned Parenthood (Senate) 100 percent in 1996-2003.

1995-2004 On the votes that the National Family Planning & Reproductive Health Assocation considered to be the most important in 1995-2004, Senator Clinton voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.