I hate the Dems right now. They can't even support a censure

[rainy]

of a president with a 38% approval rating. This is inexcusable. There is no way they can claim to be Democratic and not support this. I am disgusted with them and have had it with them. All the great ones get brushed aside by their own. Murtha, Feingold, and on and on.

[sendero]

1. I've been getting there month by month..

... as I watch with total amazement at just how completely lame and ineffectual our Senate is. Sometimes, I think all but a handful are in someone's pocket - their total spinelessness cannot be explained by any normal scenario.

I'm getting to the point to where I feel like the whole freaking thing is a big put-on. A big, sad, charade.

[rainy]

3. Me too. There are a few who stand on principle but mostly

we have fake politicians who can't even be honest with themselves about what is right and good for the country. Most are bought and paid for.

[vssmith]

6. One of our best Senators

died in a plane crash near Eveleth, Minnesota!

[Erika]

2. All of the net polls are showing strong support for censure

Too many to be just coincidence or unbalanced. The polls also indicate an actual mistrust of W and his policies.

There is a big distancing of the republicans themselves from W and his record.

Let's see how this plays out. I have contacted all my D.C. reps and told them to back the censure and consider
impeachment. We have to do our part by giving them support of censure and impeachment.

[babylonsister]

4. How do you know they don't support it? Feingold's speech

was so late today that I honestly don't know who's doing what. :shrug:

[sandnsea]

25. Very weird response

I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this, even for DU. Nobody knows anything yet, but out come all the Dem bashers. You'd almost think they were trying to discourage this thing before it ever even got going.

[IsItJustMe]

5. I just heard a Repuke on Scarsborough Country call Fiengold a traitor.

Who do hate more?

[tinfoilinfor2005]

7. Feingold outed Valerie Plame???

This should be our standard answer for that ignorant statement.

[Doctor_J]

8. They won't take him on on any issues

no resistance at all. Really pathetic.

[fed-up]

9. If we heard, they heard, why the delay in their (Dems) response??? n/t

[SaveElmer]

10. Censure of a President is almost without precedent...

There have been two passed, and one expunged. The only one still on record I believe is against James K. Polk.

Unfortunately, had Feingold been serious about this censure resolution, he sould have laid the groundwork more carefully first. Even those who would have very likely been allies of his in this effort were caught off guard.

[Doctor_J]

11. A presidency of this level of corruption is unprecedented

compared to an oval office hummer, Smirk's done at least 15 impeachable things. Censure in this case is a slap on the wrist.

[SaveElmer]

12. No it really isn't...

There have been several President's at this level or worse...

Not trying to downoplay how bad Bush is...but in a historical context there have been others.

The main point however is, with a determined opposition who is in the majority, some prep work on Feingold's part would have been in order. Looks like this was a disorganized ad hoc effort.

[awoke_in_2003]

15. Ask yourself

with prior knowledge, would Hillary have supported it? (clue: answer is no)

[SaveElmer]

16. Why do you keep bringing up Hillary...

This has nothing to do with Hillary...it has to do with whether Feingold should have lined up more support first. ANd this sub thread wasn't even about that, it was about the nature of censure and how commonly they were attempted.

[awoke_in_2003]

17. I keep bringing up Hillary for a reason

she is in your avatar. You evidently support her. She evidently supports the status quo. She is for the war, so as a supporter, you also do. She is a big money democrat (just as bad as the repukes we are trying to fight). DLC=GOPlite

[SaveElmer]

18. Man...

You really need to grow up...that is about as immature a rant as I have ever seen...off topic, irrelevent, and just really lame...

[TankLV]

21. You did nothing wrong.

Take what some say with a grain of salt.

The truth hurts some deeply, it seems.

[radio4progressives]

22. what other president was as corrupt and fascists as this one?

[SaveElmer]

23. Harding, Nixon, Andrew Johnson...

Were all corrupt...

Nixon and Johnson at least as bad as Bush, and probably worse.

Hayes was elected under corrupt circumstances...a deal to abandon freedmen in the South...

[mvd]

24. I think Bush is the worst

We really don't know the extent of all Bush's crimes.. certainly I think his illegal wiretapping is on a bigger scale than Nixon's spying.

[Doctor_J]

30. Nixon was a boy scout compared to Smirk

Given today's make-up of the media and Congess, Nixon would not even have been censured, much less impeached. You might rightly claim that Nixon never admitted his crimes, while * brags about his, but IMO this makes Bush worse, not better.

* ignored 54 warnings that the country would be attacked using airliners. He spies on political opponents. He sits mute while he's told that one of our major cities will be wiped off the map by a hurricane. He plays the guitar while thousands of citizens die. He lies repeatedly about the danger posed by Saddam, and then uses those lies to kill 250,000 civilians in Iraq. He spends millions upon millions of tax dollars on tour telling more lies. He funnels nearly all of the 1/2-trillion tax dollars for this war of choice to Cheney's company. He puts terrorist countires in charge of our port security. He puts unqualified political hacks in charge of homeland security, FEMA, and SCOTUS.

Sorry, Smirk makes Nixon look like Honest Abe in comparison

[mvd]

38. Reagan's actually closest to Bush IMO

With his Iran/Contra deal. But I'd still give the edge to Bush.

[dennis4868]

40. yes....Nixon was corrupt and so was Johnson....

but the thing with Bush is that he is doing everything both of these guys have done. Nixon was corrupt in his own way and so was Johnson but Bush is corrupt in such a way that he is commiting all the crimes that Nixon and Jonhson committed in one presidency.

[tom_paine]

26. "There have been several President's at this level or worse..."

Name them, if you can.

And remember, simple corruption is actually the lesser component here. Name "several presidents" who have shown a more willful disdain for law and the Constitution. Name me "several presidents" who have used industrial strength Nazi/Soviet-style propaganda on Americans.

[SaveElmer]

27. Nixon, Andrew Johnson, Harding...

Buchanan could fall into that mix...

[mvd]

31. I still disagree

None of them went with pre-emptive war or considered himself so above the law as Bush.

[SaveElmer]

34. I have to disagree...

Nixon secretly conducted illegal bombing campaigns into Cambodia...and not above the law...what do you think Watergate was all about?

Johnson used his power to provide unwarranted pardons to former Rebel leaders after the civil war, and deliberately undermined the rights of freedmen.

[mvd]

35. Bush sees himself above the law..

in ALL categories.

[Stephanie]

46. Now you are defending Bush - unbelieveable

WTF?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dennis4868]

39. There have been several President's at this level or worse?

Name a president who has done worse than Bush in terms of impeachable crimes? There has been none! Not like Bush....no way.

[DrGonzoLives]

41. Grant

Allowed limitless graft in the White House, and sent federal troops to alter election results in Louisiana, Florida and South Carolina to make sure Tilden lost in 1876.

Tyler deliberately ignored a treaty with Mexico to start the land-grab humorously called the "Mexican-American War."

LBJ's administration blew Tonkin Gulf far out of proportion to justify Vietnam (9/11 anyone?). Ditto for McKinley and the Maine.

Lincoln happily suspended Constitutional freedoms in the name of "security" and "union" during the Civil War.

Reagan sold weapons to Iran to fund terrorist rebels in Nicaragua.

FDR rounded up innocent Japanese and herded them into concentration camps.

Nixon ordered a break-in so he could spy on a political rival during an election.

Woodrow Wilson systematically dismantled what little progress was made during Roosevelt/Taft in regards to federal hiring of blacks. Not to mention invading Mexico and Russia unilaterally. Must have been because he was so "progressive."

Then there are numerous Presidents and their mistreatment of American Indians, but Jackson stands out quite tall in that regard.

So, yes, Virginia, there are other Presidents who have been just as bad as the current one. Unless you think that all of that stuff is just kid's play.

[dennis4868]

43. you name all these different....

presidents but Bush has all of this stuff in one presidency....if it was not so sad I would laugh.

[mvd]

44. That's what I thought

Whatever category you can think of - militarily, spying, cronyism, ignoring treaties - Bush is like all those Presidents rolled into one IMO.

[Skittles]

13. I am completely disgusted

I don't know for the life of me what the f*** is wrong with them

[awoke_in_2003]

14. I whole heartedly agree

and you can thank the leaders of "our" party: Clinton, Lieberman, Biden and every other member of the DLC

[AtomicKitten]

19. the blaming here is rather random.

How about for once we blame each and every individual congressperson for their own vote?

[zulchzulu]

20. Call your senators!

Fax them, email them, call them...let them know...

[ClassWarrior]

28. And ask them this question...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2512789&mesg_id=2512789

NGU.

[Minnesota Libra]

29. I'm not so slowly beginning to agree with you and I'm going to be......

.....in deep doodoo if Democrats :wtf: - especially my Dem Senator - don't support this censure bill. I will have no party to vote for in November or in 08.:cry:

[Radio_Guy]

32. With a 62% disapproval rating

The American people have already censured him. Now we have to make sure his kind is never elected to any office again.

[demgrrrll]

33. What is interesting to me is that the people that they seem to be going

to for quotes are also people who have Presidential aspirations. Biden, Bayh, Liberman is a gimme. I see this at this point as not so much not for it as not wanting Feingold to get ahead of them. I may be wrong but I do not think it is an accident that they went to these folks for quotes because they could count on a neutral or dismissive response.

[depakid]

37. "...they could count on a neutral or dismissive response."

Yep.

That's the key variable in the equation that has cost the Dems 6 Congressional elections in a row. Soon to be a 7th.

[enough already]

36. Why even bother talking about impeachment

If you don't have the simple balls to censure him? The leadership of this party blows.

[onenote]

45. can't impeach, can't censure. Need a majority.

If Russ Feingold wants to make a motion to censure chimpy, that's fine. But at the end of the day, my focus is on what helps the Democratic party capture seats this November. Personally, and I know there are many who disagree, I don't think a big concerted effort by the Democrats to censure chimpy helps. My sense is that what the public wants is competent government. That's why chimpy's numbers are in the toilet --- people don't think he's competent to do the job. But a censure fight does nothing to make the Democrats seem like they have answers. It changes nothing for the average person and therefore will not help Democrats in November. It simply allows the repubs to argue that Democrats are more interested in show than governance. While I disagree with that assessment, I have no reason to doubt that would be the spin and I have every reason to worry that it would be effective with an electorate that doesn't like chimpy, but isn't exactly mad for either party these days.


onenote

[mvd]

47. If we lose on a censure vote..

that's what has me worried. If we win, I think the public is so mistrustful of Bush now that it might reaffirm their concerns - and will get the base riled up a bit. Just like restricting abortion does.

[enough already]

51. If we refuse to fight, losing is guaranteed

Those wimps all ran away from Feingold and left him hanging.

[mvd]

52. I agree

I'm fully in support of the censure. Voters don't see often enough how different we are (as a whole) from the Repukes. But if there's no support after a fight, then maybe it would be best just bringing the subject up.

[iconoclastNYC]

42. We must take back our party.

No more D.C Dems.....we are the party. We need to take over the leadership and fix our party.

Dean needs reinforcements. We all must get involved. Run for office, fundraise for stand-up progressive democrats, and get the political apathetic a reason to care.

We can do it. We must.

[DarienComp]

49. Keep calling them.

It's a better use of your time.

[AtomicKitten]

50. It has been said it is the timing .....

the Dems wanted the NSA illegal wiretapping controversy to play out for several more months before the upcoming election.

If they lose on the censure vote, that's that.

Sometimes immediate gratification isn't always the best course.

[Le Taz Hot]

53. THIS is the result we get

when all politicians, regardless of affiliation, are supported by the same monied interest. I know I'm going to get creamed for saying this but Nadar was correct -- almost every one of them are bought and paid for by the SAME greedy robber barons. Consequently, there is no difference.

On Edit: Speeling

[rainy]

54. I agree. There are only a few mavericks left. The Bidens, Liebermans

Clintons (both), Kerrys the big named ones are ALL sell outs. Time after time, on a regular basis they have disappointed us. They have yet to do the right thing. Just the few, Boxer, Feingold, Byrd.

[politicasista]

55. Just another pathetic dem bashing thread. Go Figure.

There are more dems fighting for YOU than you think.

[rainy]

56. Name them?

[politicasista]

58. Same ones you have EXCEPT

You left out Kennedy. And Kerry has been throwing a LOT more crumbs to the Democratic-liberal base than most of out elected representatives. Far from the "sell-out" label you accuse him of.

Byrd is a conservative dem. He is no maverick. If he was, he would have voted against closure and against Alito and backed up Kerry and Kennedy's decision to filibuster Alito, but I forgot people are one issue voters.

[Le Taz Hot]

59. You know, I usually avoid

these pissing contest type posts but I'm going to play a little bit on this one.

Just a stream of consciousness thing:

Clinton: Most recent move is to move away from the pro-choice position. Being framed in a "make abortion rare and legal." Voted for the war. Supports a flag burning amendment.

Kerry: Voted for the war. Wouldn't challenge the questionable vote counts in Ohio and other places even though he promised "all votes will be counted." Came out with the "had I known what I know now I would have still sent troops to Iraq."

Biden: Credit Card whore. Voted for the war.

Now, tell me how have any of the above people helped me, my family, my neighbors or anyone I know? These scripts are straight out of some K Street septic tank. It's all smoke-and-mirrors. The reason they supported the war, the bankruptcy bill, the Patriot Act -- all of it was to give the appearance they were strong on homeland security or were pro business. This isn't governing, it's a dog-and-pony show.

So, yes, this is about one issue. It's about our Democracy and we're no longer willing to shut up and vote for "the party." Deal with it and spare us the one-dimentional "retorts."

[rainy]

57. I'm sure they are fighting even harder for their "dealers"

[bpilgrim]

61. FUCK THAT! this is an ongoing cluster fuck for more than 5 years, hello...

the neoCONs are a CLEAR and PRESENT danger to OUR WAY OF LIFE who are SHREDDING OUR RIGHTS by BREAKING OUR LAWS! where the FUCK are they :argh:

peace

[Neil Lisst]

60. How can you hate yourself? don't be hatin'!

I am a Democrat, so I never say "the Democrats are making me mad!" Maybe "the Democratic leadership is making me mad." Or "the Democrats in congress are making me mad."

Politicians shy away from uncertain positions. They don't like to be pushed too far from center on most issues.

I support Feingold, but I understand the party members who don't.

[bpilgrim]

62. psst... the OP is talking about our leaders

fyi :hi:

peace