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Admiral Loinpresser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:50 PM
Original message
Gore basher on Franken.
What an idiot. JAMES TRAUB wrote a March 12 piece for the NYT Magazine, entitled Party Like It's 1994. (Relevant quote in gray).

In this DLC-friendly/Hillary-friendly article, he claims Gore ran a bad campaign. He then appeared on Franken today and was publicly locked into saying things to support the piece. On air, he said (a la Clintonian Third Way criticism) that Gore's populist shift in 2000 actually lost him votes.

But first he revealed that he doesn't know the basics of presidential politics. He claimed that Gore, as a sitting VP of a successful two-term president, had an electoral advantage. This is simply false and the converse is true. Two-term VPs are rarely elected in modern times. The only exception dating back to 1836 is George H.W. Bush in 1988. Traub incredibly offerred as evidence the result of the 1988 election. When Franken asked him when was the same result previously, he admitted he had no idea and began to adopt a defensive inflection, IMO, indicating his embarassment at being over his head. No expert he.

The 1988 cycle can be explained as an exception caused by the self-admittedly poor campaign of Dukakis versus the sleazy but effective campaign of Lee Atwater and Dubya.

The empirical demonstration of Traub's falsity is in the poll numbers. If I am right, the polls would heavily favor Dubya in 2000 and Dukakis in 1988 (i.e. cutting against sitting VP). Bush in 2000 led by abount 20 points in March, 1999. Dukakis also had a big lead. Without the fact in hand, I believe it was at least 15 points.

It should be self-evident that good campaigns gain points and bad campaigns do the reverse. By an objective standard, Gore ran at least a good campaign. I can only think of one possible campaign as effective since at least the Humphrey campaign of 1968, which almost got to even starting way back, or the 1948 Truman victory.

Mr. Traub, before you sound so certain about a subject, you should be adequately informed. The larger truth is that the Third Way will not get the nomination nor would it win the presidency. The time is ripe for progressive populism.


Party Like It's 1994

It's a persuasive argument. But there's one question that Marshall and like-minded folk cannot convincingly answer: How do you harness the passion of your followers with a chastened politics that rebukes many of their convictions? How can you be "authentic" and "genuine" outside the confines of the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party? You can't, unless you're as brilliant as Bill Clinton. Indeed, you can see the dilemma play itself out in Clinton's two chief political offspring. In 2000, Al Gore unmoored himself from Clinton's "Third Way" politics to run a more satisfying race as a populist scourge of Big Oil and Big Health Care and so on — and drastically underperformed expectations. Hillary Clinton, by contrast, an exquisitely sensitive instrument in such matters, has staked out centrist positions on such toxic issues as Iraq, abortion and even flag-burning in anticipation of the 2008 election. And party regulars have already begun despairing of her firmness of purpose. It's the Gordian knot the Democrats can't cut.


xxxx
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Gore won -- that's the only campaign praise he needs
It's just the DLC believing they're seeing Gore moving into position to announce. It's just more of the ongoing DLC game.
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katmondoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. The Republican's have lost the right to criticize any Democrat
With all of their lies, corruption, hate mongering and scams they have become the mirror of what they opposed in others.
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kerstin Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. If Gore decides to run again,
Edited on Tue Mar-14-06 04:22 PM by kerstin
he will not be talked out of it by the DLC's "good of the party" crap as he was in' 04. Nor will he be beholden to them, another reason his candidacy threatens them. This time he'll come to us, the netroots and the sinew of the party. Of course things were different then in some many ways.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. I totally agree. And I think that's what has DLC scared. n/t
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I heard it, it was complete BS
He said that it was easy for a sitting VP to win the presidency but when Franken questioned him the only one he could come up with was Bush I. It pissed me off because this guy was acting like he was knowledgable but he wasn't. The last sitting VP to be elected president was back in the 1830's. Van Buren was Jackson's VP and was elected president in 1833! This fact alone helps demonstrate the opposite of what Traub said. If it was so easy for sitting VPs to be elected President, as Traub asserted, than why haven't there been more?

I found more websites that said things like this:

Men who have been American vice-presidential candidates have bad records as presidential candidates and as presidents. It doesn't matter whether they held office as vice-president or not. Whether they won or not, the results are generally less than satisfactory. The historical message is unambiguous: vice-presidential candidates tend to lose as presidential candiates. Or they become undistinguished presidents -- at best! (Emphasis added.)

http://www.avagara.com/politics/bad_veep/


The one webpage I cited has a list of VP's who ran for president and lost. Included in the list are VP's that won their presidential campaign after they were already sitting presidents, that is, the VPs that assumed the presidency after the elected president was assassinated or died in office.


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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. pssssst Bush I won one term after Reagan.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Duh
I just got off work and typed off a quick answer. It had already established in the OP that Bush I was a sitting VP who had been elected president. I didn't think I needed to repeat the obvious. Now, is there something substantive that you want to bring up because I'm preparing for the mini-DU meetup at my house beginning in about 45 minutes. Then we're off to see Helen Thomas tonight.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. No, we're done.
Edited on Tue Mar-14-06 09:58 PM by AtomicKitten
I was responding to your post, not the OP.
Funny how those things work.
I took my cat to be neutered today, did my volunteer work this afternoon, and saw a guy who looked just like Rufus Wainwright at the corner of Van Ness and Golden Gate.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Meant as reply to OP
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I like your space dog.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. I heard the interview and it is not as you have portrayed it.
I don't know where you got the DLC/Hillary meme.

He didn't trash Gore. He merely expressed his opinion of how things went down in 2000. Analysis almost always elicits differing opinions. Opinions that should be heard in contemplating upcoming elections.

We could use some open minds in preparing to go into battle again later this year.
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Admiral Loinpresser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. I believe he mentioned the Third Way strategy on the radio.
In any event, the quoted text at the bottom of OP illustrates both the Hillary and Third Way points.

I agree with the sentiment about open-mindedness, but Traub presented himself as authoritative while making an assertion that is anti-historical and feeds a mythical, Republican-friendly talking point.

He is entitled to his own opinions but not facts. Being a sitting 2-term VP is a disadvantage, not an advantage. Plus I suspect by his ignoring the remarkable headwind of press bias in 2000, he is either uninformed or intellectually dishonest.

I found him to be bloviating about something he didn't understand. I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. He also ignores the media
The media was extremely unkind to Gore, while it had adored Clinton.

Just consider the debates - In the first debate Gore intelligently responded to all the questions, while Bush really blew at least one. The coverage spent more time on Gore sighing - which they ampliphied. Gore then tried to correct this (a pretty sensiible move), and the story was that he wasn't himself and appeared to have 3 personas in the 3 debates.

Now, do they always cover debates this way? Look at 2004 - there were 3 very strange personas shown by Bush, were they covered?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. the media wasn't kind to either Clinton or Gore
Clinton just handled it better.

The media pilloried Clinton through the Lewinsky debacle.

And the media was atrocious to Gore.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. I'm talking the 1992 campaign
He had very positive media. Bush senior really didn't - there was endless coverage of him becoming illl and vomitting at a Japanese dinner.

Beyond generally positive press, there was far more coverage of the conventions. For the new challanger, 9 hours of network tv was great. Remember the man from Hope.

I agree that the media went after Clinton after he confessed to lying about Lewinsky. At that point though he was President and could speak to the people over the heads of the media.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. the media was extremely hostile to Clinton from almost the day he took
Edited on Wed Mar-15-06 08:07 AM by Douglas Carpenter
office - giving unprecedented coverage of the so-called "Whitewater scandal" and every other detail that could be stretched to the breaking point.. Although during the general election of 92 it wasn't bad.

I doubt that any media in the history of western democracy has ever been as hostile to a setting head of government as the media was to President Clinton throughout his Presidency.

The media was less than flattering to Bill Clinton in in 1992 primaries, but also became more critical of President George H.W. Bush during the time of the fall general election of 1992.

But I do agree with your basic point that the media was exceptionally hostile to Vice President Gore during the 2000 campaign.
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AJH032 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. Clinton won in 1992 with a populist message
so I doubt that's what "cost" Gore the election (which he actually won).
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Don't forget Perot and Nader
Perot slammed WHWB before he started to act weirdly. His net affect was likely to help Bush, while Nader hurt Gore.
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