Can someone PLEASE help me figure out what's going on??

[Minnesota Libra]

Ever since I first got to DU all I heard was stuff like, "Why aren't the Democrats standing up and doing what's right?" And also, "Why don't Democrats have any backbone?"

Then, the other day a Democrat actually showed some backbone by standing up and saying what needed to be said. Basically Feingold said, Bush has screwed up our country and at the very least he needs to be censured for it.

Now, all of a sudden, everyone is telling us to tone all the political stuff down. Don't speak out too loud because you might hurt the Democrats chances in November.

Well, guess what, imho, if Bush and Diebold have anything to say about it then the Democrats chances of winning in November could be nil to none. I know a lot of people are absolutely fed up with the republicans and Bush in particular. Even so, it's going to take an absolutely overwhelming turnout in November to pull off a change in Washington, DC. We've been through this already so it isn't as if we don't know what we're up against.

My take on this fence riding of late is that we may have a WHOLE LOT of trolls at DU these days. Either that, or else we all need to go back and reevaluate exactly what it is we want out of our leaders. If we can't figure out what it is we want from one week to another how in the crap are we supposed to tell our representatives what we want?

So help me out here, what is going on and why the chances of late??

edited for spelling

[Whoa_Nelly]

1. Am with you re: Feingold and not sitting on the fence, ML

[Vickers]

2. Some folks think good manners are gonna win elections.

I think they're full of shit.

Hope this helps. :thumbsup:

[radio4progressives]

4. Good Manners? lol!

:rofl:

[Minnesota Libra]

7. I'm with you, I"M TIRED OF GOOD MANNERS - I want action out of........

.....my representatives - and if they have no stomach for it - or the action part hurts their "good manners" then maybe we needto show them what "get packing" means.:bounce:

[riona]

34. what did being polite get us in the last election?

let's see, we were branded - "wishy, washy," "flip-floppers," "no message," "weak on security," etc, etc. their "decisive" campaign won the labels - patriots, family values, apple pie, mom, and the american flag.

[radio4progressives]

3. Right Wing Trolls are in serious Attack Mode ..

Feingold is too dangerous, because he's the only one telling a little bit of truth that American People need to be aware of.

And besides, that's what do to people who don't toe the party line.

[redphish]

5. What we need to do is tell our leaders exactly what we want of THEM!

[savemefromdumbya]

6. Howard dean didn't sit on the fence either

look what happened to him! He should really forge ahead. He supported Feingold and the party did. So......

[Capn Sunshine]

12. and Damned if the compensated Dem$ on Fox news

and other "News" channels are reaming Howard out for it. These guys are SUCH whores you'd think they'd realize no one is buying their crap unless they can smell the Potomac from their back yard.

[NativeTexan]

8. At election time, tensions get high. Especially when it starts......

....to become apparent that BOTH houses of Congress are in play. One side wants to rock the boat....not a bad idea. The other DOESN'T want to rock the boat...also has merits.

The Village W. Idiot DESERVES to be not only censured, but IMPEACHED! Some just feel that the real issue is how Republicans in Congress FOLLOWED the idiot, on EVERY FRONT that he chose to go, and making THEM answer for that. And to go after the President, who can't be re-elected, NOW might take swing-voters minds off of the stupid sheep that IS the Republican Party....since half of the Senate and ALL of the House are up for re-election.

If it was up to ME, I would have waited until after the elections, simply because it is obvious that NOTHING is going to happen now, and afterwards it will either be the exact same scenario, OR WE will have control of the Congress, and might be able to actually make Russ Feingold's dream, which is also my own....COME TRUE!

But I don't blame Feingold at all. He made his choice as to when to attack, so I have no problem myself with it. Timing is the only concern for anyone I think.

[Minnesota Libra]

10. Timing? Isn't 5 years of hell enough time?? nt

[NativeTexan]

13. Yes, and LAST year would have been even SOONER and ....

...better timing. Didn't have the 4th amendment abuses, but we DID have Iraq and over 2000 cases of murdered American kids on his hands, not to mention the terrorism deaths of over 30,000 Iraqi civilians, by his own admission!!

[Minnesota Libra]

15. I completely agree that last year or even the year before would have......

.....been better for some backbone from our Democratic representatives. But in my opinion, better late than never!!

What say you??

[NativeTexan]

18. Agreed...but....

...wouldn't you agree that maybe concentrating arguments on those who are actually up for re-election that followed him blindly while he stole power, committed war crimes, and sent the deficit into the MARTIAN atmosphere....and THEN refused to admit that what they did was wrong because the president knew better than the rest of us?

There is time to deal with him, and MAYBE at a time when something might actually happen, instead of doing something symbolic right now.
Concentration should be on making sure the swing voters know what CONGRESS did, under Republican leadership. Swing voters don't have to worry about the Village Idiot anymore.

But I DO want to see him held ACCOUNTABLE for his murderous attitudes towards American kids who go to fight because it is their job and responsiblity; and for his many, many lies to the American people for EVERYTHING that ended up going wrong, and that is about everything he has done; for his terrorism of Iraq civilians, who NEVER asked him OR the U.S. military for help, but ended up DYING ANYWAY; and more things that my old fingers have the strength to type about at one time.

[Minnesota Libra]

24. No I don't agree - this mess didn't come about with efforts of just.......

.....one or two, or even just ten.:wtf: This mess was a colaberative effort of ALL NEOCONS and all to damned many democrats too.:shrug: So concentrating on ALL NEOCONS should be our focus.:freak:

[NativeTexan]

28. Yes..on the ones that we can actually get rid of......

...and not losing focus on the big prize.

[savemefromdumbya]

14. the boat must be rocked NOW

[NativeTexan]

19. Maybe not...if you really want to retake the Congress...my sainted Daddy..

...always used to say "keep your eye on the ball, or it'll smack you right between the eyes". The ball right now, IMHO, is Congress...nothing will happen with the VI right now anyway. With elections right around the corner, I just don't see something that is purely symbolic, right now, is going to accomplish anything. After we WIN.....if it has already been tried...and of course defeated..then the American public is liable to see us as vengeful instead of acting in their best interest. On the other hand, if it is done for the first time AFTER we win, it will look like pure house cleaning in the name of America!

[savemefromdumbya]

21. we have a problem

i'm not sure if one can win against Diebold machines?

[NativeTexan]

22. Now....THAT is a horse of a different COLOR....and you are EXACTLY...

...RIGHT!! As long as one party, and the crooked one at that, has their dirty little fingers in the voting machines, it will continue to make LBJ's early "dead" vote counts in a State Senate race look like milk and cookie time in a first grade class!!

[Minnesota Libra]

25. My point exactly! Do censure now and impeachment later nt

[NativeTexan]

27. IF you could actually get IMPEACHMENT and CONVICTION now..

...I would agree..but you can't while the repugs hold the power. But it is a great argument..

[Minnesota Libra]

29. So because the neocons control Congress we do nothing at all?? nt

[NativeTexan]

30. Because the neo-cons control it all, we VOTE THEIR ASSES OUT....

....and that can be done by making sure that non-voting Dems, swing voters, and mis-guided independents know exactly what their congressmen and women and their Senators have done in relation to this president. I just believe, IMHO, that the Village Idiot is ALWAYS in the spotlight, and it is a bad one now, so we have to bring the repugs in Congress DIRECTLY INTO THE SUNLIGHT and not let them hide like the roaches that they are, and only come out at night when the TV's are turned off! If THAT happens, BUSH'S ASS IS OURS. Once again, IMHO. Thats just me.

[Minnesota Libra]

32. That much I agree with totally - I'm just don't understand this......

.....idea of censure, no don't censure, or wait until later to censure/impeach. People don't seem to remember that we've got Diebold to deal with in November. So what happens if November is turned into another "confidence vote" for the boy king?

I agree totally with you on getting rid of the entire boy king's criminal enterprise though.:bounce:

[NativeTexan]

35. What would censure or impeachment NOW do about...

....Diebold?

[Minnesota Libra]

37. Diebold controls voting machines which means.........

.....November may go the Democrats way - - OR - - the election in November could be stolen AGAIN. If that happens and we have not at least done something on censure the republicans/neocons can claim victory for Bush's domestic/foreign policies AGAIN.

[NativeTexan]

40. But with Repugs in power NOW, censure/impeachment go ........

......nowhere NOW. It gets tabled and nothing happens. No votes. No debates. Nothing...except make swing voters look again at a president that can't be re-elected. Censure/impeachment now does NOTHING positive toward this years elections, but it has the capability of doing quite a bit NEGATIVE toward it. I just think waiting until AFTER the elections, win or lose, is better. But, again, thats just me.

[Minnesota Libra]

26. The states will take care of Congress if Bush's numbers are.......

....any indication. The only wild card in a major overhaul of Congress are Diebold voting machines. On the other hand, I think people are so fed up with Bush and Congress that this election will be a landslide one way or another.

[Capn Sunshine]

9. Trolls

IMO that's been the situation here for some time. Astroturfers, trolls, moles,snakes in the grass, exploitative mercenaries.... what are you gonna do?

Everyone has a POV ...:shrug:

[Minnesota Libra]

11. I'm beginning to believe the troll thing- and it will get worse too nt

[NativeTexan]

20. Thats why we are DEMOCRATS.....we embrace different opinions....

...on our way to finding what is RIGHT for the country!!

[hippiechick]

41. Why does it have to be a troll ?

Can't anyone here really face the fact that there are varying degrees of opinion among Dems/Liberals and that (possibly to our detriment) we don't DEMAND our 'followers' march in lockstep like the GOP does ?

Jebus, just cause someone doesn't agree with you 120% of the time does NOT make them a troll! :eyes:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. I signed the petition of support of Feingold's resolution,

sent emails to my Senators, and called asking them to support Feingold. What he has said needed to be said a long time ago. The Emperor has been prancing around naked far too long.

[Minnesota Libra]

17. Yes, I gave my Dem and neocon Senators an ear full for days nt

[kestrel91316]

23. I for one believe that MANY DUers with over 1000 posts are "Ivans".

I also happen to believe that many, if not most, DLC members are "Ivans".

[Greyhound]

31. Well, first it isn't nearly "everyone". There are a few hard-core

Democratic Party cheerleaders that will hear nothing against the Democrats, no matter how egregious the offense, and they apparently have all day to scan threads and post.

Feingold and the other censure supporters are trying to embarrass the the Democratic Wing of the Corporate Party into exposing themselves for the politiwhores they are. It is a difficult and dangerous game as the Corporate Party has a great deal of power within the "leadership" of the party, and the ability to significantly punish those that will not tow the line, by drying up campaign funds, or diverting them to opponents with a more "sympathetic" POV, just look at what they did to Hackett.

So just ignore them, post according to your beliefs, and vote your conscious. :kick: :patriot: :kick:

[Minnesota Libra]

33. Thank you - I couldn't agree with you more!! nt

[Skinner]

36. Here's what's going on:

This is a big community, filled with people who have different options on stuff.

Democratic Underground is not monolithic. Some people think Democrats need more backbone. Some people think we need to be cautious. Some people think that sometimes we need more backbone, and other times we need to be more cautious. And some people hold completely different viewpoints.

For more information, read this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Some folks are afraid of backbone

personally I have lost any faith that the party will show any backbone. Individuals, absolutely, the party... nope

[truth2power]

39. There are a whole lot of trolls here, IMHO...

We're not allowed to call people out, so I couldn't make any comments in that regard. I think I'm pretty good at picking them out, though, and it has little to do with their post count.

They're a lot more subtle than they used to be, and "voice" and "tone" are good indicators. :shrug:

[hippiechick]

42. Please see post #36

:eyes: