I'm going to ask an outrageous question . . .

[MarmiteVarmint]

. . .and hope I don't get banned. I've just read for the millionth time how hatred of Bush is in the clear majority. That's what was said at election time, too - that the majority of Americans hate him.

What do we do if that's not true? Are some of us so outraged by the results of the last presidential election because WE have made a miscalculation in measuring his support?
Have we've been SO blinded by our own . . .distaste - that THAT is why we failed?

If that's not true, all to the better. However, if even a part of it's true, then, to win next time, we need to solve that problem.

[grasswire]

1. we?

who is we?

[kid a]

2. whats to ban?

[Taxloss]

4. A Radiohead fan!

My hat is off to you, Sir.

[reichstag911]

30. Check yer Inbox. n/t

[reichstag911]

29. Check yer Inbox. n/t

[Sammy Pepys]

3. I think you're in the right ballpark

I think we have tendency to overestimate how much the general public knows about and dislikes Bush.

[lukasahero]

5. You been looking at the polls lately?

"We" haven't been blinded by anything.

[MarmiteVarmint]

10. To be perfectly honest . . .

I also know WE pad the polls whenever we can - and rightly so if we think it helps. However, we shouldn't then take them so much to heart.

[lukasahero]

17. "WE pad the polls"? WE do? Who's we?

You don't mean that darn liberal media, do you?

[MarmiteVarmint]

27. No

I mean all the calls here to 'unfreep' a poll, to DU it up right, give it a little DU love, etc.

[lukasahero]

35. Well, the "polls" that I'm talking about are the ones in the MSM

Online polls are beyond bogus. Anyone who thinks they matter needs a little computer education.

Zogby, Newsweek et al have polls showing the lowest numbers in years for a sitting president. I don't think "we're" wrong to believe that most of the country doesn't support B*sh when you look at those polls.

[uppityperson]

39. on-line polls are not the ones quoted.

on-lines polls mean little.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

85. Online polls are a joke

They're not taken seriously nor are they used as a source by any poll takers. The are really no more than for entertainment purposes.

Edit:
I forgot my manners... Welcome to DU! :hi:

[guidod]

88. Online polls are

nothing more than a pep talk. Welcome to DU and I'm looking forward to hearing your side of debates.

[flamin lib]

6. I don't think the majority of Americans

hate Bush. It is clear now that the majority do not approve of his leadership.

A minority of us Dems seem to hate the man. I personally can't muster the energy to hate him personally, just the things he has done to my country.

The Republicans have been able to turn that vocal minority into a rallying point for the base which is something we Dems couldn't do for Bill.

Ya' gotta' hand it to 'em, they're good at phrasing the debate and staying on message although it is becoming a little obvious these days.

[Dhalgren]

7. According to polls, about 33% support Bush, 60%+ are opposed

to him. "Hate" is a strong word and perhaps only 30-40% actually "hate" him. I do not think you can go wrong, at this point, being anti-Bush...

[freesqueeze]

8. HATE? Who hates, here?

I don't hate him. I don't know anyone who does. Pity, fear, or fail to comprehend maybe, but hate...never.

What exactly have you been reading?



How could anyone hate such a foolish loser?

[monktonman]

15. count me in as a hater.

I dont give a crap what you say. I hate that man, Hate his family (even the ones I dont know about) and hate everyone and everything he stands for. And that was before he became preznit.
If that means I hate america then so be it.
Oh and whats with this "WE" shit?

[enough already]

70. I hate him too

I would hate anyone who illegally and immorally took us to war, stole our civil rights, and destroyed this country. I make no apologies and don't know why others feel the need to either.

[MarmiteVarmint]

20. This is just a sample . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x683046

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2503084

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2517758#2517802

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x198161

[blondeatlast]

78. Granitized for your protection--the OP in link #2. nt

[cally]

25. Another hater here

I agree that most in America don't hate *, but I do. I'm the angry left the media likes to belittle and rather proud of it. I have a bumpersticker on my car that says, "If you are not completely appalled, then you are not paying attention." That summarizes what I believe.

[MarmiteVarmint]

26. Look . . .

If you hate, you hate. Simple. I'm just asking that those that do make it WORK for us.

[uppityperson]

36. You do understand that * has dramatically negatively impacted much?

You seem to be saying that Mr.bush is not as disliked as "we" say he is, and that we should not be worried about him because he will be going away soon. Is this right? I would like clarification of this before spending more time discussing with you. Thank you. Oh, for reference, here is what you wrote yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=198161
"However, as you get older and see one election after another, you'll feel more settled. Bush will be a distant memory - if at all - as he turns back into an ordinary man.

Don't ever give ANY candidate as much power as you're attibuting to Bush. You need a bit of perspective; America is SO much more than just him. You have all made him into SUCH an ogre and it's just not necessary."

"George Bush is not the whole of America. Soon, he'll be out of office and he'll fade from view as all presidents and prime ministers do. I don't know why he looms so large--maybe because of America's short history."

[RebelOne]

56. Despise and hate him.

[Arugula Latte]

60. I do. I hate him with white hot intensity.

I do.

[mitchum]

84. I PROUDLY and UNAPOLOGETICALLY hate him

[Skittles]

92. I hate that incompetent, lying piece of shit

and living in Texas I have hated that bastard for over a decade

[mdmc]

9. welcome to DU

most americans dont vote. We have lots of problems to solve. Help!

[MadMaddie]

11. Things have changed because of the Ports debacle...

The lies are starting to seep out of the debacle of an administration..

I don't think we miscalculated we lost because of lack of votes....the election was rigged with the Diebold machines....we lost because we made the assumption that the elections would be honerable and honest and the votes would represent the peoples choice.

To win next time the machines must be eliminated.....

[AtomicKitten]

12. D*I*E*B*O*L*D

[HereSince1628]

13. Since American's do not turn out to vote, even when a dictator is

attempting to continue in his run, it's quite possible to have a majority against him at the time of the vote and lose the election (and I appreciate that many assume vote fraud happens).

Sinc the US does not do votes of no confidence which initiate general elections it is very possible to have a majority of the population opposed to an unpopular president, but having limited mechanisms to deal with that opposition.

[Brazenly Liberal]

14. I think you're a wee bit confused here, fella

"Are some of us so outraged by the results of the last presidential election because WE have made a miscalculation in measuring his support...to win next time, we need to solve that problem."

There will be no next time. No matter how much support he has - and it's damned little these days - he can't run again.

BTW, "We" didn't fail. He didn't get a second term because he has so much support. He got by SwiftBoating and other assorted lies, manufactured fear, and a friend at Diebold.

[BrklynLiberal]

18. What brazenly said.

[ChiciB1]

82. Ding! Ding! Ding!

I'm not part of the WE! I didn't vote for him, I don't think he actually won either election either!

WE HAVE been screwed, but I refrain from using the word HATE!

I think the man is delusional, I think his cohorts are joined at the hip, and I also think THEY don't give a flying fig about WE THE PEOPLE!!

This is a dangerous, dangerous administration. Oh wait, not administration... it's a Cabal!

The only way WE are going to get ANYTHING done is to DO IT OURSELVES! WE don't have much say in what goes on anymore because of two words... MONEY & Re-ELECTION!!

[Orangepeel]

16. the majority of Americans don't hate him

About 1/3 of Americans hate him. Another 1/3 will gladly follow him into hell.

The final third are a mixed bunch of people who consider themselves "moderate," don't like politics, and WANT to like their president. Some voted for him in 2004, some voted for Kerry, some didn't vote. But recent polls show that many have recognized his incompetence. That's relatively new.

[sui generis]

19. the answer to your question

is that those of us here are generally more informed and more politically active, but the majority of Americans (of all political orientations) are essentially underinformed, uninterested, and unmotivated to do much more than repeat a talking point or tell you their underinformed opinion on matters.

When it comes down to voting time, most of us rely on straight ticket voting, which is a real liability for the middle who are usually undecided up until the last moment, and who generally place greater emphasis on "image" and how they "feel" than on substance.

The other half of the equation is that Democrats are all over the spectrum. For every democrat who is pro choice there is a pro-life democrat and we're canceling out our own votes in the senate.

Same thing with equal rights and avoiding war and censuring this buffoon of a president. We have no party discipline at all, and absurdly we're proud of that, even though we continue to lose on our own hubris, and the appearance of not having a fixed message that everyone agrees to and supports in the same way, and we continue to blame it on everything but ourselves.

We have this gigantic low hanging fruit to pluck and nobody has the balls to do it. Populism will win this election in a landslide. Sticking up for the common man against corporate interests in pharmacy, managed healthcare, employment, insurance, and credit will bring it home for us, but we're diddling around with raising the minimum wage by a nickel and changing clean air standards by two thousandths of a percent, and we're going to just barely not win again.

I'm fed up with it. I've written, called, ambushed our elected democratic officials (nicely) and gotten evasions, smarmy answers, no answers, and sometimes contrarian answers, and goddam it we have to question it. They don't know what they're doing.

Or rather, whatever it is we as a party have been doing up until now is exactly enough to give us what we have. If we want something more or different or better we're going to have to DO something more or different or better.

[MarmiteVarmint]

23. Now, that's a good post!

You written to most of exactly what bothers me! I'm just trying to kick around every issue so that we WIN next time. Maybe being a female, I look at the psychology of it too much, but I don't think we can afford to leave any stone unturned.

[annarbor]

81. Sui Generis..

You should seriously consider running for office!

You just summed up the the state of politics in America. Or, I just wholeheartedly share your point of view :)

Peace,
Ann Arbor

[uppityperson]

21. Aren't you the one who said don't worry about * 'cause he'll be gone soon?

Didn't you say that yesterday?

[MarmiteVarmint]

31. But of course . . .

I hope that we DO prevail - and I try having confidence in that. The rest of the time, I try to ENSURE it by figuring out how to WIN the next election. Yes?

[uppityperson]

37. so should we just ignore what he does & focus on next election?

I can multi-task.

[Vickers]

22. I don't hate the cowardly, drunken dumbass.

Hope this helps.

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. To know him is to hate him.

We, here, know him pretty well, so here attitudes range from disgust to loathing and even to outright hatred, if not of the man then at least of his policies.

There is a sizable portion of the population who don't care to know - they accept what they are told by their trusted sources, be they CNN, Fox, or their sunday pulpit. So there is a base there for him.

Another, much smaller portion, advocates for his fascist policies; the same portion that includes the far right businessmen who have always agitated against democracy and the neo-nazis of the various movements including the KKK, Christian Identity and others of that ilk. That portion includes, as well, the manufacturers of our voting systems, Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia, who can take that base and create a majority from it.

The majority, however, lie in the middle between his base and his foes. They don't hate him, they don't like him. They judge by results, and they currently don't like the results. But they also will not accept that their votes are not being properly counted and will accept the results of the 2002, 2004 and, probably, the 2006 elections. They believe in the system, and will not believe that the system is broken.

No, the majority do not hate him. Which is all the cover he needs.

[C_U_L8R]

28. I agree with your premise

that we might be blinded by our own rage.

Truth is the republicans played a better ground game in the last election.
They're funded up the wazoo and they are organized like a machine
all the way down to local offices. When the marching orders are delivered..
they all snap to and goosestep in unison.

The dems are anything but.... however we do have truth. justice & liberty on our side :-)
The party just needs to get it's act together... quickly

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. Well, they also controlled the Secretaries of State of crucial

battleground states, burglarized Democratic election offices for their voter rolls, disenfranchised tens of thousands of Democratic voters, and counted the votes behind locked doors.

That might have had a little to do with it, too.

[MarmiteVarmint]

34. I do so wish . . .

. . .that Kerry had been much more . . .ruthless.

[Catchawave]

33. Welcome to DU MarmiteVarmint !

:hi:

I've noticed the MSM RW pundits using the term "the angry left hates Bush", therefore, anyone who doesn't agree with Bush, must be angry and hates him :D

I personally don't hate Bush, I hate his agenda and war, and for letting Karl Rove manipulate the media to divide Americans so much.

[MarmiteVarmint]

41. Helloa!

I use the word 'hate' because it's been used here and about other progressive sites. I wouldn't exaggerate such a thing . . . Seeing what they do with it - the RWers - perhaps we need to be a bit more circumspect . . .

[uppityperson]

44. OMG, you are right! The RWers might use that word against me!

I'll be more circumspect. I wish all the evils for the current administration that they have placed upon the world. I wish them to be haunted by all the deaths they have caused. I wish their food to contain all the toxic chemicals that they have loosened upon the world. I wish their bodies the pain they have caused and their sleep disrupted by the screams and cries of those they have harmed. I wish their children to be unemployable and have no choice but to go into the military. I wish their aunts and uncles to be floated dead or found desciated under a crushed home 6 months after they died because of incompetence.

Or, I will just let it go because, as you stated elsewhere, Mr.bush will be gone soon so let's just focus on the next election.

Circumspect enough for you?

[Bridget Burke]

66. Those genteel Right Wingers are offended by our unkind thoughts.

Since they are definitely above all that "hatred." Their respect of President Clinton is surely worth emulating.

I just wish the idiot had never been born. His handlers are more guilty, because he's not all there. He was just the most electable puppet they could find.

Actually, when speaking "outside" DU, I'm likely to discuss issues. I'll give my opinion on the Iraq debacle, the growing deficit, & the abandonment of causes like education, the environment & health care. Katrina is also a hot topic in Houston. As well as Bush's pals, Tom DeLay & the Enron gang.

Even here in The Most Evil Red State, you'd be amazed how many respond with rude words--directed at our "President."

[MarmiteVarmint]

80. Dear

I'm not surprised in the least . . .

[cboy4]

38. Bush and all of his lying, evil bastards make me want to VOMIT.

So if puking one's guts out falls under the definition of hate, well then....put me down for hate.
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Rose Siding]

40. Maybe you could explain all the qualities that might alter that opinion?

Thanks!

[ClassWarrior]

42. Hear, hear. I'd like to hear those qualities myself...

Waiting with an open mind...

NGU.

[MarmiteVarmint]

43. I'm not asking for an alteration.

I'm saying that smart politicking might well involve a difference between what you feel and what you SHOW you feel.

[Rose Siding]

45. How did dem candidates show hatred?

And how would they be more "ruthless" without any anger?

[ClassWarrior]

47. Again, kicking for an answer...

NGU.

[uppityperson]

48. and another kick

maybe MV is busy elsewhere and can't answer all our questions?

[MarmiteVarmint]

49. Anger . . .

. . .can be very quietly effective - cool, even vengeful - but better as simply a working tool. The best anger is something that helps you that others would not dare think of as 'anger' - or anything negative. Be smart. Be smarter.

[ClassWarrior]

50. You didn't answer the first question...

NGU.

[Rose Siding]

51. How did our candidates show hatred or anger?

[MarmiteVarmint]

53. You need to review . . .

I did not ever say OUR CANDIDATES showed any hatred at all.

[uppityperson]

55. Now you are saying WE should not show hatred? Clarify please.

Political forum boards shouldn't?

[MarmiteVarmint]

62. read--as many times as you need to

I did not ever say OUR CANDIDATES showed any hatred at all.

[uppityperson]

52. You are changing issues here

First you say "what if Mr.bush is not hated as much as we say he is", now you are saying don't show or write our anger because the RWers will use it against us but use it sneakily. What are you getting at?

[MarmiteVarmint]

54. I think that . .

. . . you would disagree with me no matter what I wrote. Thank goodness the others here are bit more self-assured.

You will have to argue with someone else.

[uppityperson]

57. I think that you are avoiding my questions and changing what you write

I am asking questions to clarify what you say and you do not answer except to say that others are more self assured?

Should we just ignore Mr.bush since he will be gone soon and just focus on next election?
Are you saying that people on political forums should not use the word "hate" for Mr.bush?
Do you think Mr.bush has negatively affected the environment, our country's standing in the world and contributed to many deaths? If so, why should we not use "hate"
Should any of us care what RWers make of our words here?

I am trying to clarify since I am confused by what you write.

[ClassWarrior]

58. Yes, why don't you simply give a straight answer to any question?

A DUer asks you a question, and you change the subject. Every time. Look at the thread.

Why?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

67. No answer? Why doesn't that surprise me?

NGU.

[Rose Siding]

59. LOL Who lacks self- assurance?

"I think that . .you would disagree with me no matter what I wrote"

[uppityperson]

61. me, i think

tiny tear:cry:

[MarmiteVarmint]

63. read as many times as you need to

I did not ever say OUR CANDIDATES showed any hatred at all.

[uppityperson]

64. What? UP"lacks self assurance"...candidates don't show hatred?

[Sugarcoated]

69. And it seems you're going to dodge legit questions any Dem would answer

I wonder why

[MarmiteVarmint]

77. I'm not obligated to respond to unkindness.

[uppityperson]

83. You are unkind to me, I am only trying to clarify what you say

I am asking questions to clarify what you say and you do not answer except to say that others are more self assured?

Should we just ignore Mr.bush since he will be gone soon and just focus on next election?
Are you saying that people on political forums should not use the word "hate" for Mr.bush?
Do you think Mr.bush has negatively affected the environment, our country's standing in the world and contributed to many deaths? If so, why should we not use "hate"
Should any of us care what RWers make of our words here?

I am trying to clarify since I am confused by what you write

[PATRICK]

46. The imponderables and the past polls

The latter one can make some inferences about. A large large part of the shifts are uninformed or poorly informed, possibly shallow and malleable. That is what we liked to believe was true about the Bush "popularity" despite the crowing of both the RW and the media and the cringing of the Beltway Dems.

What changed was Bush's radical, clear and lousy performance, horrible impressions, disastrous failures. That erased the shallow pro Bush and pro RW etc. It does not mean the people are comfortable, steady, fully informed(they'd want his head on a pike) or suddenly all FDR Dems. A huge portion of the RW GOP talk and machinery is accepted in the imposed contradiction that comes with the whole cloth of lies that still appears to many to be the Stars and Stripes.

Given that though, it is easier to lose support than gain it back when a sense of anger and betrayal and clear important justifications have entered the equation. It is true that with Democratic quietism, the parallel program of tarring the democrats keeps any of the anger from having any just or hopeful recourse, breeding a whole new level of resentment against the "sensible" people party which has decided to become part of the problem, part of the anger(helping the WH survive).

Unlead, misinformed, goaded and resentful, disillusioned the electorate becomes less shifting and immensely more volatile or discouraged. The latter is to the immense advantage of the GOP. It is a mistake to say that the country is becoming progressive in policy and ideology as the first premise. It is not a mistake to say that in the vacuum the Dems MUST prove they are an alternative to failed policy and false ideology. The confusion or controversy between interpretations of ideas is useless. The confusion dividing and crippling united clear action MAKES the public consciousness a lost force for its own desires.

[zbdent]

65. I think the clue is right in the very first part . . . the "framing" of

the question . . . "how hatred of Bush is in the clear majority"

How about "distrust" of Bush? Naw, that would be too realistic.

I have yet to hear, despite the quoted "millionth time", that the majority "hates Bush" . . . usually it's the opposite . . . that it's only a tiny little bunch of "whiney liberals" who hate Bush . . . everybody else just LOOOOOOVES Bush . . .

Can you provide one link from the MSM where it says "the majority hates George W. Bush"? You've said there are at least a million . . .

[MarmiteVarmint]

89. Goodness . . .

I never said the MSM. Sorry, I don't watch them - I was referring to this site and lots of other progressive magazines and blogs.

[uppityperson]

90. You're upset that people on DU say they hate Mr.bush?

You have been asked to clarify for the last 10 hours, yet haven't. You say "you would disagree with me no matter what I wrote. Thank goodness the others here are bit more self-assured. " and refuse to answer the questions put to you. Now you say "I never said that". Part of forum manners are answering questions that are put to you, asking you to clarify what you mean, in a timely manner. Forgive me if I seem too strong, but the manners you have shown here are common to people who want to disrupt and waste our time.

Edited to add, asking questions will not get you banned. Disrupting and wasting time by posing vague questions, then replying by attaching and saying "I never said that" when you never clarified when you were asked can.

If this is not your intention, I hope you are able to answer and clarify when people respond to you.

[Bridget Burke]

68. Please link the million posts that refer to.....

The Bush-hating majority.

I've blown off steam here at DU--less than others, perhaps. When I'm "in public" I discuss the issues. The fact that Bush & his crew are either criminally incompetent or just plain criminal lies behind the issues I discuss, but I retain my composure. And I'm often met with agreement, even here in Big Bad Texas.

Of course, I've heard that some Right-Wingers lurk here only to post our most intemperate remarks on their own fetid backwaters of the Internet. (The truly paranoid say they make some of those posts themselves.) If any uncommitted voters visit those sites, I'm sure they will be more offended by the hateful garbage spouted by the "members."

[radio4progressives]

71. Have I mentioned yet how much I hate these people?

[Aaaargh]

72. What's your SPECIFIC source for this claim?

"That's what was said at election time, too - that the majority of Americans hate him."

"That's what was said..."? By whom? By a contributor to this forum? By a blogger?

Or did some poll result indicate that? Because, when most of us speak today about Bush's unpopularity (which I assume is what you mean when you refer to 'hatred'), we're talking about the preponderance of polls which show that his approval rating is somewhere in the range of 30-35%. I can't say I heard of any polls which showed numbers that low during the election campaign.

If we're not going to take those current polls seriously -- a stance which seems to be what you hope to promote -- what source of information about the general public's attitudes do you feel we should we turn to, hmmmm?

Very frankly, I think you're just doing a classic DU knockdown of a straw-man here.

[MarmiteVarmint]

79. And the one above, as well . . .

15. count me in as a hater.

70. I hate him too

25. Another hater here

56. Despise and hate him.

60. I do. I hate him with white hot intensity.

[ClassWarrior]

86. Six posts on a thread a year and a half after the fact add up to...

"That's what was said at election time, too - that the majority of Americans hate him"??!

Ahhh. Not answering the question again, I see.

NGU.

[The Wielding Truth]

91. Okay, Marmite. I'll bite. How can we use it to beat the BUSHIES?

[Jacobin]

73. A lot of american voters think he's great.

A lot of other american voters are not informed and are frightened and fooled easily.

About half didn't vote for him.

I'd say about 30% of americans can't stand him.

So, yeah, you're right. Probably 70% of americans don't hate him.

[abbiehoff]

74. I have a hard time working up real hatred for him.

He's just a shill. A product of his handlers.

My husband, who actually voted for him in 2000, REALLY hates him. I think it's easier to hate someone who has let you down, someone you believed in (however foolishly).

I will admit that he's a lot worse than I thought he would be, but I never thought he would be good.

[GOTV]

75. We failed in 2004 in part because...

... many of us assumed someone with Bush's record could not win. So some of us did not go door to door or hand out literature or drive people to the polls or show up at political events or write letters to the editors or phone bank or protest or make signs or talk to their neighbors about the issues or donate money or anything but vote.

With Bush/GOP poll numbers so low I think there will be even more assumed invincibility on the progressive side and even less participation in in-the-street politics than last time.

I suspect the effect will be even more pronounced among those that get much of their news through the internet. Everyone talks about the internet's ability to disseminate info but I wonder if it doesn't provide more assistance to those that want to avoid information. Just the sheer number of choices of sources on the internet makes the internet reader far more able to find the news he/she wants to hear than does the TV watcher.

[butterfly77]

76. I don't know if you would call it hate but....

when I see him or hear his voice sometimes I get a headache. Sometimes,while looking at him giving a speech my mind starts to wandering to what I would like see happen to him and some of these things aren't very nice. Sometimes my family tries to get me to stop watching the news or coax me to do other things or watch movies on the internet because I become so angry. I don't know what to call it but whatever it is, it irritates the hell out of me.

[Minnesota Libra]

87. Please don't even talk that way - I need to hope the country hates him nt