Why are there so many DUer's in favor of the DRAFT?

[guidod]

There's another thread on the board that has a poll asking if you are in favor of the draft or if are you against. It's turning out to be a very interesting poll showing that DUer's are about split in half on their opinions. What's confusing to me is, in other polls about the selective war most everyone votes NO on being in Iraq, yet there are so many in favor of the draft.

I graduated in 1966 and was face to face with a draft. I had not enrolled in any colleges so I knew I was very close to the war in vietnam. I quickly joined the U.S. Navy and did what I could do to stay off the front lines, and it worked. I spent 2 years overseas in Guam supporting the ships that went to Nam. Facing the draft was a very scary wake-up call when I was approaching adulthood. What entered my mind, while in Guam, was why am I facing so much danger when it was my parents and their governments fault in the first place. I now feel that our children should not be responsible for the errors we make, I am very anti-draft.

I guess my question to you is, what would be your reason for sending our innocent scared kids off to die for our failures?

[napi21]

1. Not sure, but I suspect the ones who support a draft do so

because they think that is the only way to force the poor little rich kids to serve in the military. I know, when Rengel called for a draft, he said there would be NO exemptions!

[sheelz]

40. Here is his exemptions:

"The bill would mandate military service for men and women between the ages of 18 and 42. Deferments would be allowed only for completion of high school up to the age of 20, and for reasons of health, conscience or religious belief. Recruits not needed by the military in any given year would be required to perform some national civilian service."

http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=154650&keyword=&phrase=&contain=

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. If we had a draft

our anti war protests would be HUGE. That is the only advantage I can think of. So no, I don't favor a draft, but as a member of an active anti war community, we could sure use a shot in the arm and more participants.

[w13rd0]

3. Many are of the opinion...

...that were not the service volunteer, were it mandatory/compulsory, the youth would be motivated to participate more fully in the political process. And most indications show that they tend to lean leftward of the general population on many social issues, and they'd likely oppose the administrations foreign policy if they had a "dog in the fight", as would their parents. I'm not one of them, but I agree that SOMETHING needs to wake the sleeping masses to their peril.

[Hippo_Tron]

11. It's our choice not to participate

I say our because I am among that age group, but I guess I am the exception because I definately participate. The draft is harmful to us and it should not be liberals who support re-instating it, because we don't believe in forced servitude and we don't believe in gratuitous wars. Eventually the right wingers will do something that will cause my generation to wake the fuck up. For now, we need to prepare ourselves to lead the sleeping masses for when the time comes.

[guidod]

167. What do your friends, of the same age say?

[ContraBass Black]

164. There has been a recent hard-right shift in the youth

Due to poor education, information, and upbringing.

[guidod]

165. Do you have a link

that will back you up on this? I, for one, find it hard to believe.

[ContraBass Black]

177. No, I don't.

There may be some news reports to this effect. I make the assertion from personal experience.

[guidod]

178. You said there's a hard right shift in the youth

because of PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and their MIGHT be news reports to that affect. Maybe it would be best that you don't spread RUMORS. Please get the facts right before you speak. :spank:

[ContraBass Black]

179. I'm sorry to have disturbed you with the suggestion.

I'll be sure to research thoroughly and have the library on call before posting anything else.

[guidod]

184. Your original post was not

a suggestion. It opened with "There has been" suggesting that it is fact.

[file83]

216. LOL!! Just admit it (it's okay, we've all done it before by mistake)...

...you stated an opinion as if it were a fact. It's no big deal, but I find your response there funny anyway!
:rofl:

I can appreciate good, thick sarcasm just as much as the next guy!

[musical_soul]

181. Most youth voted for Kerry.

Doesn't prove they're liberal, but they're obviously more liberal than their elders who preferred Bush.

[BrklynLiberal]

4. To equalize the risk among ALL Americans, so war is not something

that only affects "THEM", but not "US".

[noahmijo]

5. There should be a draft for those who support the war

So all the young republicans out there brave enough to mock and make fun of war protestors here's your enlistment form, sign up and go serve your gods. End of story.

[BrklynLiberal]

8. My bumper sticker says "DRAFT YOUNG REPUBLICANS"

[mdmc]

6. It would help to keep our "failures" limited

If the Bush twins were required to serve in Iraq, we wouldn't be there right now. Hillary Clinton would never have voted for war with Chelsea's life on the line.
The poor shouldn't be the only ones to sacrifice.

[guidod]

47. Then we should attack the problem

at it's core. Either treat the military as a good paying job, with great benefits, or make it mandatory for all Americans to serve their country in some manner for a period of two years.

[LostInAnomie]

7. I don't think it is so much that they are in favor of a draft...

... as they are to seeing that all social classes have to serve in the military equally. If the privileged knew that they may have to put the sons and daughters on the line like the underprivileged do they might not be so hawkish.

I could be wrong though.

[havocmom]

13. Nail, hammer: whack!

You hit it squarely!

[guidod]

58. Unfortunately, if the privileged kids

had to go I think the repugs would really get behind these idiots in Washington. I think it would have a reverse affect than what people are saying.

[LostInAnomie]

73. I think that if the privileged kids had to go...

... wars wouldn't start in the first place.

[pitohui]

99. the privileged kids wouldn't have to go anywhere

they would take the limited number of "safe" slots far from any gunfire and the poor and middle-class soldier would be guaranteed to be in the firing line

[Ezlivin]

9. My guess

I think that the support for the draft stems from the disconnect people have from the war. It's very easy to slap a yellow ribbon sticker on the tailgate of your SUV and be done with it. A draft would force people to think of the war in terms of human costs.

And I believe that those here on DU that support a draft assume that before any "kids" were sent off to war, the issue of the draft itself would have prompted mass demonstrations and protests and would bring the whole process to a grinding halt.

[etherealtruth]

10. I don't think the goal is to send "innocent scared kids ...

... off to die for our failures"

My guess it's an effort to STOP sending innocent POOR kids, with few options, off to fight for the policies of rich white men.

I don't think it will work politically ... however, if we started to draft from the pool of economically ADVANTAGED people, I would wager we would have an immediate and complete pull out from Iraq and we wouldn't see any more wars of choice waged.

[guidod]

27. Yes, a draft would have to be

across the board. But it would do nothing to end the occupation of Iraq any sooner.

[Telly Savalas]

36. But a draft does send innocent scared kids off to die.

And anybody who thinks we should force our kids to go to Iraq should sign up and go themselves, otherwise they're just another chickenhawk like Bush and Cheney.

[etherealtruth]

54. Wow, I can't tell if your hostility is directed to my post ...

or not(?)

If so, you missed the entire point of my response; the point being that "middle America" is NOT going to tolerate their sons and daughters being sent to Iraq (or anyplace else because a president "thinks" its a good idea. The idea behind a draft would be to wake middle America up so that NO scared young kids are sent off to fight.

As I stated earlier, I don't think this would ever work politically ... but, I do understand the rationale of Charlie Rangel (and others) who are sick of poor, disadvantaged (and often) minority kids being sent off as if they were expendable.

[guidod]

60. What worries me is that

it would have a reverse affect on what people are saying about middle America. They might start backing the President even more and hope for a quicker win in Iraq. Remember, a lot of the middle American repugs don't relize that this war can't be won.

[etherealtruth]

61. What we can all agree upon ...

... is that The idiot Chimp has sent countless young Americans (not even mentioning what he has wrought on the Iraqi's)into harms way and that we need to get them all home.

I don't see the draft "happening" but I do understand the rationale. I do think that larger and larger numbers of middle Americans are viewing the situation over there as un-winnable but feel very disconnected from the realities (apathetic) because it doesn't effect them and those they know and love.

I think Charlie Rangel does a great job trying to wake people up.

[guidod]

63. You are right about

I hope what Charlie Rengel said stays as just a wake-up call. A little stretch with the 42 year olds but I understand why he said it.

The trouble I have with the repug mind set, middle America or not, is there eagerness to kick ass and win, no matter what. I stand there shaking my head because everything is like a sporting event to them, or a computer game. WIN NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES attitude. It's possible, if there was a draft, they could wrap themselves in a flag, go to church, throw their arms up in the air and pray for a win. I never know what they're going to do next.

[etherealtruth]

69. The issue is most likely moot ...

It would be political suicide for either party to seek a draft. I hope the dull murmurs scare the populace into demanding a concrete exit strategy from republicans, in general (fearing that a draft may become necessary one day). I agree, in the event of an actual draft,"they could wrap themselves in a flag, go to church, throw their arms up in the air and pray for a win," is a likely scenario for many.

[sheelz]

64. Most people don't even know who Charlie Rangel is...

or what his rational is.

[etherealtruth]

70. Most people don't know ...

... who their own congress member is.

[sheelz]

71. True!

All they have to see is the (D) behind Rangel's name.

[Telly Savalas]

88. I understand the argument...

and I understand that you think such a tactic would likely be ineffective.

I'm just tired of the argument. For starters, according to polls, "middle America" already thinks the war is a bad idea.

Second of all, why go to such measures when less extreme things (like say a unified Democratic opposition to the war) haven't been tried? Imposing a draft to end the war is Rube Golberg machine style policy. If we can't directly achieve results by supporting a reasonable policy of a quick withdrawal from Iraq, why are we supposed to believe that we can impose the obviously unpopular policy of a draft?

[DrGonzoLives]

174. Who the hell do you think is going to Iraq?

Children of Berkeley professors?

No, it's the children of Middle America (whatever the hell that is) that join the military and go fight and die. With someone like Bush in office, it doesn't matter if there is a draft or not - he will get his wars, and more will die so that some liberals can act smug and self-righteous.

[guidod]

186. LOL...Children of Berkeley professors, good one!

[Lost-in-FL]

12. With a draft I would imagine all incentives

of an all volunteer armed forces such as education, veterans home loan programs, small business for vets, etc. would be gone. Sometimes joining the service is the only option for poor kids and this is sad to say. So you either have one rich son that is forced to join the military or one kids that left a very bad neightborhood and wanted to make a difference by joining a all volunteer force becuase of money for education. What would you pick?

[Judi Lynn]

34. Those programs existed for veterans who served during the Viet Nam war

who enlisted or were drafted.

[guidod]

35. I would gladly pay

more taxes to see that those who join the military are treated like anyone else who goes out and gets a job. They should have good healthcare, good benefits, free college after their service and a real program to take care of and provide good housing for their families. The incentives for joining the military in this country suck.

The best thing to do is have everybody serve their country, in some manner, for a period of two years after their schooling. It works very well in Israel and I'm sure it would work here.

[dogman]

14. End apathy.

Shared sacrifice might make people pay attention. While I personally would rather have a volunteer Army I also realize that this isolates the institution from the general public. If everyone were required to give a part of their life in service to their Country it might make them more responsible citizens. however that service need not be military only. Not everyone is suited for that but it would be better for the Country as a whole if some form of service were required. Of course it would still end up allowing exemptions for individuals due to hardships and medical reasons.

[guidod]

20. I agree with you,

I think the program they use in Israel would work very well.

[Richard D]

15. If there was a draft . . .

. . . IMNVHO, the war would be over like . . . tomorrow.

[guidod]

21. It didn't work in Vietnam.

[Richard D]

31. It did . . .

. . . just took way too long. I don't think that would happen again - unless of course there is another "terrorist" attack, a big one, that kindles an intense national wave of jingoism.

[guidod]

39. What I meant when I said

it didn't work in Vietnam is that it didn't have an immediate affect like people think it would in this occupation. I would venture to guess that the people that are in favor of a draft have never experienced a draft. If they had experienced a real draft I don't think most of the people would be talking like they are. I don't think the threat of having a draft or the act of having a real draft, including the Presidents and the Congressmens kids, would have any real affect on this occupation.

[coalition_unwilling]

209. I have not experienced a real draft, as I was born in 1959. And I

think you may have a point. But I think it's a question of fundamental fairness (aka "justice) -- to wit, if we're going to have a 'republic' (emphasis on the lower-case of the 'r'), should not all citizens have to pay its price equally, regardless of their class or gender?

Or am I missing something?

[guidod]

221. No you're not missing anything.

Yes, if there were a draft, all citizens would have to pay equally regardless of their class or gender. Let's take it one step further, to be fair, shouldn't all of the republics citezenry have equal rights before they are forced to fight for that republic? Women, gay men, lesbians, and many more should be exempt.

You could never have a fair draft and furthermore it should never happen.

[Coastie for Truth]

48. It did work once the grad school deferment ended. NT

[sheelz]

51. Then they got other deferments or disqualifications

like Limpball's pilonidal cyst.
http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.htm

[Coastie for Truth]

53. If you are willing to put up with a week of in-patient diagnostics

--you could get a physical deferment.

For instance "asymptomatic type II diabetes" which means that your blood glucose "still" tests below 110 but but your physiology utilizes your pancreatic insulin at less then about 30%. That is clinically "Type II diabetes" - even if your H1ac is safely under 7 and your blood glucose is under 110.

Or "umbilical hernia" where your intestines protrude into or through your belly button. About 4% of the population has undiagnosed "umbilical hernia" - which under extreme physical stress can become life threatening --- very quickly.

Or 'blue-green" color blindness.

Infinite number of cardiovascular or neuromuscular conditions - which (absent some fancy CT scans and fancier still surgery) can present fatally - without warning -- like these cerebral aneurysms of young men or high school athletes dropping dead on the field.

This was a whole cottage industry in the 1960's --- and the FBI used to send healthy young agents to get "diagnosed." They busted several docs in my home town.

[sheelz]

55. Who paid for in-patient diagnostics?

The taxpayers or the patient.

[Coastie for Truth]

65. The patient

[pnwmom]

81. It took more than 58,000 deaths before it "worked." n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

96. My recollection

Most of the deaths were before 1969 - when some kids of the elite were actually drafted.

[pnwmom]

100. Murtha just said recently that after 1967 there were 38,000 deaths. n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

104. Deaths hit a Peak In 1968

Year.....KIA.....Troops in Vietnam
1966....5,008...385,000
1967....9,378...486,000
1968...14,592...535,000
1969....9,414...475,000
1970....4,221...334,000
1971....1,380...156,000
1972......300....24,000

You can interpret the statistics as you wish

* Most graduate school deferments went away in 1968
* 1968 was the year of the Tet Offensive
* 1968 was when MLK was killed
* 1968 was when RFK was killed
* 1968 was a year of horrible urban rioting
* US troops in VietNam hit a peak
* US deaths in VietNam hit a peak

Draw your own conclusions

I was there - in the military in 1968. I had younger cousins talking about going to Canada or to Seminary (still a viable way to beat the draft)

Let me make one personal observation - many of us put the blame for about 10,000 of those deaths (the ones after mid-year 1969) on Richard Milhaus Nixon and Henry Kissinger personally - worse then Bush and Condi and Rummie.

[coalition_unwilling]

210. Thank you for the stats -- please don't forget about the large

number of casualties among the Vietnamese people, especially as Nixon's Vietnamization policy reached full bore. As I understand it, the U.S. substituted air power (read "bombing the fuck out of the South Vietnamese peasants") for boots on the ground after 1969.

What makes Nixon's crime so much worse is that he campaigned on a "Secret Peace Plan" in 1968 when his plan (if you want to call it that) was to widen the war by bombing Cambodia and Laos.

[INdemo]

16. I agree

If this was a war of purpose than I might think differently but this is not a war that threatens national security.
Like you I joined the Navy and actually got my draft papers while I was in boot camp.

[guidod]

56. LOL! You just squeaked by

Good timing.

[raysr]

17. Because that will wake up the Sheeple!

When THEIR kid has to go, instead of someone else's, that changes everything. The little snot nosed college repukes would CRYING foul too!

[guidod]

57. The repugs would

wrap themselves in the flag and nothing would change, it might even get worse.

[xchrom]

18. i faced the draft as well. and i'm for the draft.

two things -- though before my support goes full bore.

closing loop holes re: college so that those who are experiencing the economic advantages of life are subject to the draft.

and two, a draft will bring parents more into the political process that stop the country from investing in wars of personal or corporate interest.

conservatives know this -- and oppose it on those grounds.

[MrPrax]

19. This is nuts...

Is there anyone here that would possibly believe that 'discriminatory' practices under a 'Rengel' solution STILL wouldn't take place?

Is there anyone here that would possibly believe that if drafted, then the anti-war movement would simply narrow itself into an anti-draft movement?

Let's have fun with another issue like women's choice...let's support draconic evil like the SD ban and the HOPES that it will awaken the sleepy masses to defend their rights? You figure that would work...? Would that put more bodies in the street to protest?

Good grief...shutdown the war machine and behave yourselves...that's easier.

[guidod]

24. I opened this thread because

of the answers I saw on the poll. Nobody would answer why they're strongly against the occupation, where kids are being killed right now, yet they would be for a draft. A draft would do nothing to end the craziness of this so called war.

I agree with you on womens rights, you should open a thread and ask the questions.

[libnnc]

22. I'm torn on this one...

I know I'm so frustrated and angered by the bushbots denial of the real horrors of war--their total rejection of reality in what's going on in Iraq--that part of me is willing to support a draft. Wake the dumb, uncaring fuckers up. But implementing a draft doesn't mean that only apathetic, rich, GOPers sons and daughters would be up for sacrifice.

[Totally Committed]

23. Because they never lived through a time when there actually WAS one!

eom

TC

[guidod]

26. Thank you! You are spot on.

[hwmnbn]

25. I say draft only persons that support war ........

draft only people who have a financial self-interest in war. Begin with first drafting the sons and daughters of politicians who voted for war.

I'm all in favor of drafting those folks.

[guidod]

59. Draft the politicins not the kids,

they have nothing to do with this why should they die?

[kayice]

85. It depends on how old YOUR kids are I guess, PLUS WE HAVE

AN INSANE CHICKENHAWK PRESIDENT AND CABINET. The fact that BushCons appear to be itching to get into ANY war lately scares the hell out of me.

1 daughter 16 yrs, 2 sons--18 and 20 yrs.

[guidod]

90. Wow! Good luck and

keep them close to you. :hi:

[kath]

67. and/or start the draft age at 35 or 40 -- that would change people's

attitudes in a hurry. It's way too easy to see the young (especially poor youth) as disposable cannon fodder.

[IndianaGreen]

28. They have the misguided notion that Jenna Bush will get drafted

the reality is that the children of the rich, those that can afford a higher education, and those that can claim GAWD called them into preaching, will always manage to get out of the draft. It is us fools that work from paycheck to paycheck, or that cannot afford college, that will ended being called.

[The Magistrate]

29. There Are Several Sound Reasons, Sir

All are quite impersonal, of course....

The first is that conscript armies tend to reflect in their ranks the political views of the society at large. This is an important check against an armed force being used for usurpation and tyranny. In the twentieth century, there were instances where the refusal of conscripts to obey politicized officers prevented military coups from succeeding. A wholly volunteer force often becomes politically isolated from the views of the general public, and may come to reflect only the political views and aspirations of a particular segment of society or region of the country from which the recruits are predominantly drawn. Such a body, considering itself an elite more patriotic than the general run, is much more easily moved to act in a coup against a democratic government, when it is in the hands of political bodies it disagrees with and despises as not embodying the "true" spirit of the country, as its officers and riflemen conceive these to be. By the same token, in times of widespread popular disconsent, a conscript force is more likely to act in accord with the desires of the people than the government, and refuse to suppress the people, or even move to overthrow the government.

The second follows somewhat from the first, though it is a distinct consideration. It is more difficult to commit a conscript force to war and to maintain it at war, because much greater political resistance will be encountered if the venture does not enjoy a very widespread popularity among the people. This is an important check against a government's engaging in "wars of choice", as opposed to war forced upon it in the eyes of all. An all volunteer force can be more readily committed, because fewer citizens are involved in military service, because the soldiers are drawn from families and regions more likely to approve of martial ventures in the abstract, and because there is a widespread sentiment that volunteers have made their choice and must abide by its consequences in the pinch without complaint. Indeed, the ideal force for true "adventuring" by a government is a body on the lines of the French Foreign Legion, composed of persons who are not even citizens of the land they serve: no one in the country will give a damn what happens to them, and casualties suffered by them will have no political impact whatever.

A third consideration is that widespread military service serves as a sort of social leveller. It brings people from different social stations and different regions into close contact, and breaks down some of the natural isolating factors in society that make it easier for people to hold stereotypical views about those different than themselves. This can serve as a sort of political solvent, making more difficult the cultivation of social and regional rivalries that depend on a certain degree of ignorance about other people for their usefulness to political manipulators. It has in the past put some persons in the way of technical training and educational opportunity that has proved valuable to them in civil life that they might not otherwise have come upon.

A final consideration is that widespread military service diffuses among the people a real knowledge of military practices and caopabilities, and the true nature of military organization and operation. This is valuable in many ways. It is no accident that the worshipful attitude towards the military so widespread in our society today arose only some years after conscription ceased. If you had polled the population of the U.S. in the early sixties, well salted with former conscripts who knew the score, you would have found very few people responding that the military was a very competent organization worthy of great trust. The people today are often and easily deceived about military matters, because they do not know how the military machine operates: they imagine things can be done much more quickly, and much more precisely, than they really can be. This allows deceitful leaders to camouflage preparations for war, and the conduct of war, in ways that would be much more difficult if the experience of military matters was more widespread among the people.

"If you wish for peace, prepare for war."

[jarab]

38. Agree with your several points, Sir. n/t

...O...

[Zodiak]

41. very good post, Sir n/t

Even though I am not for a draft (because being taken from society at large, given a gun, and told to kill is very anti-freedom, imo, so I reject it on principle), you bring forth very compelling arguments well-worth considering.

If this issue is about personal freedom vs. all of the points you make above, I can see how DU is split on this.

ON EDIT: I see that I'm not the only DUer who has noticed Magistrate's tendency to write ", Sir". I like posters with style.

[stray cat]

30. Right now we send largely innocent underprivileged kids

to die. Its easy for the masses in the US to support a war they don't have to sacrifice for - as long as its someone elses kids who have to fight war will be undertaken lightly by politicians and Americans. If you might be the one fighting it has a different level of proof to support military action.

I suspect more Americans would also become interested in voting and international relationships.

[sheelz]

33. Would they vote for Rangel (D) or against?

Would they vote for anybody who was a member of the Democratic Party?

[pacalo]

32. I'm not for a draft.

Those who favor a draft do so because it would supposedly force the sons/daughters of congress members to serve. I don't buy into that. Money/status talks.

If I were to favor a draft based on that, I'd be cutting off my nose to spite my face. I have two draft-age sons that I don't want to lose for any illegal war started by this regime.

[guidod]

44. I wish more people would

unwrap the flag they have around themselves and think like you. You hit it square on.

[pacalo]

76. Thanks, guidod.

:hi:

[JunkYardDogg]

37. To get the 20's Generation off their asses and into the streets

The 20's generation is so self absorbed and self indulgent, they don't give a shit about anything but their own selfish wants
If their cush self centered lives were at stake, it would rip this country apart,
just like in the '60's
Except the violent repression against them would far exceed anything we saw in the '60's, except maybe the Chicago police assassination of Fred Hampton and his crew

[guidod]

42. It would do nothing to

end the occupation in Iraq. All that would happen is the body count would go up. Nothing would affect this administration.

[JunkYardDogg]

49. They would be forced to Kill Americans in our own Streets

If the 20's generation were drafted and sent to Iraq/Iran to die for the Bush Reich
there would be full scale riots on Campuses and streets all across America
and the Bush Reich would Never, Ever tolerate these riots
and orders would come down thru the Purged Military Leadership food chain to start shooting American Youth Anti War demonstrators
Which will in turn radicalize more youth
There is nothing more effective in radicalizing and organizing youth than them seeing violence used against them by authorities in power
That is what we did in the '60's fighting against the Viet Nam War
And it eventually led to the end of that war
If you are actually naive enough to think that this insane war will be stopped by traditional legislative actions, relying on the spineless, gutless effete pseudo liberal Democrat Congressional leaders, you are absolutely stark raving delusional.
These SOB's won't even back Feingold's Censure motion, because they are so afraid of giving the Bush Reich a topic to slime them with.
Further, there will NEVER, EVER be a majority of Effectual Dems elected to Congressional office to retake a Congressional majority as long as voting is done on the rigged electronic voting machines.
The Bush Reich controls America and they have no intention of losing that control.
This isn't the America that ever existed.

[guidod]

52. I agree that our current

Congressional leaders will do nothing to stop this Occupation. I also know that if there was rioting in the streets this ashole would declare Martial Law. These people in Washington would NOT be affected by this. Remember this is a DICTATOR not a President. The more control a DICTATOR has the more they like it. Riots would do nothing but put more fuel on the fire and make the situation worse. HE would LOVE it!

I don't have an answer, but I know more killing won't work. Remember, no child should be punished or die because of the failures of there parents. Peace

[pnwmom]

83. I totally agree with you, guidod. I have two teenage sons (one 18 yrs.)

that I'm not willing to sacrifice to this cause .

It's just wishful thinking to believe that the American public will somehow "wake up" before the new draftees ever have to put their lives on the line.

[ghostsofgiants]

224. Yeah, shoot the young fuckers, that'll learn 'em!

You are fucking sick. How can you sit there hoping for a draft and subsequent violent suppression of any youth antiwar movement, just to get more youth "radicalized"? Some kind of revolutionary collateral damage? Somehow I think the dead kids from the war and from the violent oppression would be of much better use to the world if they WEREN'T dead. Like name not needed mentioned already, 18-29 is the ONLY age group in your country in which a majority of voters voted for John Kerry (54% if favour of Kerry). So how about we start drafting anyone over 30, get the 30+ crowd out to protest and then be gunned down by the government. 30+ is the age group that needs to be radicalized a little more if you ask me. (Gives a new meaning to "Don't trust anyone over thirty," doesn't it?)

(But hey, what do I know, I'm just some apathetic twenty-something punk kid.)

[Ariana Celeste]

170. So...

How about those in the 20's generation that DO care, and DO get out there, and DO vote? We don't matter?

Or the parents of those of my generation who also do whatever they can, and do care, and vote, and get out in the streets? They don't matter?

It's easy to just lump everyone in their 20's into one group isn't it? Let me guess- you must not have kids, or siblings, of draft age.

Shame on you for being so willing to send my generation off to die for greedy republican assholes just because YOU are unhappy with the way things are in this country.

But hey- me, and my husband, and my friends, and my siblings- better we get sent off to die then do what we can to make a change here right? Because that would make YOU feel better wouldn't it? Better we get sent off to die because some of our generation are self absorbed- because I mean, it's not like anybody in their 30's.... or 40's.... or 50's... or older... it's not like, any of them are too self absorbed to care what's going on in this country... right? They all care, every single one of them.

Oh wait- People voted for Bush didn't they? Well damn, I guess it's not all about the 20's generation.

:eyes:

[DrGonzoLives]

173. "Crock of shit" describes your post very well

Your generation, the fucking baby boomers, have been the most self-centered and whiny generation in centuries. I see plenty more of people of my generation active in politics than yours, who are too busy sitting on their asses and bitching about how kids today don't protest like they used to.

So, how many dead kids will it take to get you to realize that using lives to win an argument is as evil as it gets? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

[file83]

217. I agree with your sentiments exactly. Supporting the Draft so that

it "wakes up" the youth is a stupid, STUPID argument. It's sick too, because it'll do more than "wake up" the youth, it'll kill them.

[rinsd]

205. Fuck the self righteous, self indugent boomers...

...a whole generation of hypocrites that experimented with revolution in college and sold out right afterwards.

Spare us the bemoaning of our generation. Its your fucked up generation that has us in the crap we're in now.

So you want a draft, so there's massive civil unrest which you hope is repressed violently because its political useful. Disgusting.....and par for the course for the self indugent self righteous boomer.

[ghostsofgiants]

219. So I guess that explains why I'm a political science major...

And why many of my friends and I are so politically active. :eyes:

[name not needed]

222. Speaking as someone 3 years too young to be part of your flawless plan,

fuck, I don't even know how to respond to this. How the fuck do you get the idea that forcing the only generation in which a majority of those registered voted for Kerry in 2004, into military service and getting shot at for protesting? But I guess Tiananmen Square was a good idea too.

But what do we know, we're just a bunch of self absorbed children who happen to be paying your social security.

[guidod]

223. Keep focused and keeptalking

the way you did in your post. Nice Job!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[rman]

43. Wars of aggression are hard to fight with an army that consists

of a cross-section of the population. Ordinary people tend to have less of a taste for war then voluntary and mercenary soldiers. This was a significant factor in Vietnam.

Many of US troops in Iraq now aren't even Americans citizens; many have been promised American citizenship if they fight in this war - and survive.

[guidod]

45. Let's hope this ends soon.

A draft will not much of an affect.

[Coastie for Truth]

46. The real opposition to the war developed among the "elites" after 1968

When the draft really broadened to catch the children of the "elites"-

Graduate school deferments basically ended. Especially for Liberal Arts, Business, Law (Med, dental, etc. students had to enlist under the "Barry Plan").

A few Reserve and Guard units actually got called up - not like for Iraq - but just enough to put fear into the hearts of the "elites."

If you were a married graduate student with kids - you could still get a deferment.

If you had the money to go to a comprehensive diagnostic clinic for three days - you could still be medically disqualified.

But 1968 was the end of the cheap law school and MBA and grad school deferments. -- and the real beginning of the protest among the "elites."

[guidod]

50. You are right...

...1968 is the year it started moving in the other direction.

Vietnam Troop Levels
Source: Congressional Quarterlies

1960
900

1961
3,200

1962
11,300

1963
16,300

1964
23,300

1965
184,300

1966
385,300

1967
485,600

1968
536,100

1969
475,200

1970
334,600

1971
156,800

1972
24,200

By 1972, an estimated 70,000 draft evaders
and deserters were living in Canada

It lasted for 4 more years. If an across the board draft happened now, with this administration, the repugs would wrap themselves in the flag and it would take a long to have an affect of the present occupation.

Besides all of that, our children shouldn't have to pay for our horrendous mistakes. :shrug:

[American Tragedy]

62. Because of what you just said, guidod.

<<Facing the draft was a very scary wake-up call when I was approaching adulthood. >>

If there were a draft, this would all end. Bush surely wouldn't have the political capital to endure it.

I'll go further. The invasion would have never happened in the first place, were there conscription. Not on the ridiculously weak case that they clumsily pushed.

I remember I was literally laughing out loud when I heard the Powell presentation to the U.N. It doesn't surprise me to learn now that he was embarrassed about it.

Not to mention Rumsfeld's absurd claim to know "exactly" where the so-called WMDs were located, but couldn't reveal it to the inspectors on the ground right at that moment, who they were poised to KICK OUT of Iraq. You couldn't write something this crazy! But nobody gave a damn, because most people for some reason are only socially aware when they are directly affected. My grandmother became a war protester the day that my father drew the number 24 in the draft lottery.

I'm twenty-two, by the way, so it's always been very relevant to me.

[sheelz]

66. But there are plenty of these...

For Bush: Military 'family' solidly behind the President
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04308/405845.stm

[guidod]

68. You are absolutely right on

about conscription. Israel does it rightand it seems to work very well for them.

What worries me is a draft could have the opposite effect when it comes to political capital for this guy. My heads been in a fog for 5 years wondering how this guy got in the White House (Twice).

I was pissed when I listened to Powell was making his presentation to the U.N., I knew it was a bunch of crap. Their lead up to invastion was so transparent it's impossible to believe he was re-elected. Mushroom Cloud?? Come on.

I can understand, at age 22, how that would be a part of your thinking. You sound like you are definitely heading in the right direction. Your thoughts of the future, and your part in it, seem very focused. My thoughts are with you, good luck. :thumbsup:

[laugle]

72. A draft would UNITE THIS COUNTRY and stop this useless, criminal war!

[sheelz]

75. United we stand...divided we fall

is a Repuke meme and not worthy of any merit.

[guidod]

78. Well said, sheelz...

[laugle]

109. What is your point? The quote in my profile is my own!

Are you saying my words have no merit? Can you elaborate?

[sheelz]

117. Do you understand the United We Stand, Divided We Fall

is a Republican slogan?

[laugle]

146. No I didn't understand that, enlighten me! n/t

Like I said the quote is my own, and I sure as hell am not republican!

[sheelz]

156. I'll try to explain--

United we stand, divided we fall was The meme after 9/11. To stand United for or against something is not always in the best interest of that something. In fact, it could very well lead to it's fall.

[laugle]

157. Sorry don't get you at all, I took your OP to me

as an insult, especially when you said it had no merit.....I wonder if you understand how it sounded to me?
I still don't know if you were referring to my post re the draft or just insulting my quote on my profile.


We just don't really connect on this I think.....

You would improve your communications skills if you didn't come off so condescending.

I suspect you are just a smartass!!Another genius......

[sheelz]

162. It's abstract.--

I'm not trying to insult you and I don't believe you are a republican. Part of the problem is that you can't/don't understand the meme "United we stand...divided we fall" and why it has no worthy merit. If you can't understand that basic premise, I'm not sure I can help you. But, I will try.

Here is an example:

If we all are United to walk off a cliff.......we're dead.
If we all are Divided to walk off a cliff......half are dead, half are alive.

Based on this example--Is it better to United or Divided?

Dead is not a worthy merit.

[laugle]

182. Glad to hear this was not an insult, guess I just don't

think much in the abstract.

I prefer simple direct communications!

I'll retract my "smartass" comment...peace to you

[guidod]

169. The saying "United we stand...Divided we fall" has

been around since the 60's or 70's, I'm having touble believing you own it.

[guidod]

77. One would think...

...have you ever faced draft?

[laugle]

108. I'm from the Vietnam generation, a draft tore our family apart to this day

My post did not say I was in favor of a draft!

[guidod]

110. I'm sorry to hear about your family.

My response was directed to what you said, "A draft would UNITE THIS COUNTRYand stop this useless, criminal war" in post #72. That sounds like you would be in favor of a draft. What am I missing?

[laugle]

147. I would hate to see a draft.....it was a horrible thing!

I guess my point was to evoke some responses whether people think it could stop this useless war!

My fear is that the Iraq war is going to last a long time like Vietman, and I know the horror that would bring!

Unlike Vietnam, which many people supported because they were duped, I think it is different this time in that the polls show that most people are against this war; and I sometimes think that because people are much more hep today a draft would finally end it!

Maybe I will post a thread and just ask people "if there was a draft would it UNITE the country and stop the war?"

So what do think about this question?

I hope that explains my position.

[pnwmom]

80. A Democratic-supported draft would tear the Democratic party apart. n/t

[SeaBob]

74. Draft.

I dont think its about military as it is serving ones country

[guidod]

79. No draft...

...2 years mandatory service to your Country, not neccessarily military, after school is finished. Before college or after, but before you reach the age of 25.

[wiley]

82. Would Gay Men and Lesbians

be drafted? It's bad enough they are monitored, tracked down and discharged if there is any suspicion they are gay once in the US military.

You can't even donate blood in this country if you are a gay man or have had sex with someone of the same sex in your lifetime.

If you think that the two issues referenced above are based on sound medical, moral or scientific criteria you are either a closet Republican or a total moron. Probably both.

[guidod]

91. No one should be drafted!

There should be a 2 year mandatory sevice for your Country, after your schooling is finished and before you are 25. This would include everyone, gay men, lesbians, straight men and women, blacks, whites, browns and yellows. EVERYBODY, and not neccessarily military service.

I was pissed off at Clinton when he passed the "don't talk, don't tell" bullshit with the military. My brother is gay so I know SOME of the discriminations he has to endure. He was in the Army in the 60's and said a lot of his friends were gay and accepted by most of the other soldiers. Things have really taken a tailspin in the last 20 years. About 15 years ago he was shot in the neck with a pellet gun while he was walking down the street which almost killed him. He's ok now plus they never caught the prick. Don't give up, peace.

[LWolf]

84. I am not now, and have not ever been, in favor of the draft.

I will never support the draft.

I'd support this limited service requirement, though: Every rep who votes for war needs to resign their seat to a non-warmonger and serve on the front lines of the action for the duration of the conflict.

[guidod]

92. Good idea!

[flyarm]

86. because if everyone had to sacrifice equally the war would end pronto!

if rethugs and young repugs had to go to iraq..we would be out of iraq yesterday!
repugs just tell everyone they are patriotic..patriotic to them is carrying a flag and putting one in their lapel..not fighting for their patriotism!

if the rich peoples kids had to go..this war would never have begun..they would have sent * to the wood shed first...they only collect tax cuts and send their kids to party schools..or to papa and mommas legacy schools..they don't get their hands dirty..or bloody , as it may be..hell no..they go for the * doctine of send the poor kids to fight for their greed and wealth!

i say you support this shit..send your kids first!

fly

[Telly Savalas]

89. And if you support a draft, send your kids first too.

[flyarm]

95. there is already a draft...its a poor kids draft! same as nam was!

it wasn't until the elite folks kids got sent to the jungles that the protests got rolling and when the rich kids knew they were going to that hell hole of a war that the war was stopped!

we have a draft right now..its just not effecting the mass majority!

fly

[Skittles]

87. the innocent and scared are already being sent off to die

the affluent and well-connected are not; however, even a draft does not fix that

[guidod]

93. No, but a 2 year

mandatory service for your Country would help.

[Skittles]

114. well, no one had to mandate me

I volunteered - as an 18 yr old gal in 1975 :)

[noamnety]

94. We already have a draft

It's an economic draft.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. First off we already have a draft

two in fact.

1.- Economic draft, many kids join because there are no jobs\ only way to pay for college

2.- Back Door Draft, with vets who are getting recalled.

So we already have one... time to wake up to that reality

Secondly, you were lucky to stay off Nam, but in case you wonder... the mobilization in the colleges did NOT occur until Draftee formations hit the field in Nam... beefier that, nobody gave a hoot or knew where Nam was. By the way the war started under Ike...

Now if you can find a way to mobilize the nation that does NOT involve a draft, I am all ears... but the only way you will change the direction of this disaster is national mobilization and you don't have it right now

By the way I didn't stay at the holiday inn last night, my history degree is for real.

[guidod]

103. No we don't have a draft now

and I know that redeploying them is wrong but it's nothing like a draft. Have you ever lived during a draft?

[pitohui]

98. i have no idea

frankly i would suspect infiltrators from the other side trying to make us look bad

[pnwmom]

101. I wonder about that, too. Or if not that, people who have their

own motives for driving the Democrats apart.

[rucky]

102. "facing the draft was a very scary wake-up call"

you just answered your own question.

[guidod]

105. You are right I did,

but how many innocent draftee kids would have to fight and die before it would change?

[cassiepriam]

106. Because it is the right thing to do. And it will stop the war cold.

[guidod]

111. You know this for a fact?

Have you ever faced a real draft? It would only fuel the fire under this dictator.

[cassiepriam]

113. Fueling the fire is what I am hoping for, exactly

Burn Bush to a crisp, metaphorically speaking of course.
The draft would do that quite quickly.

And is that a fact? Of course not. Future events are events which have not yet occurred, and they cannot be considered fact. Unless of course you operate in different time-space continuum that I do :))

[guidod]

124. The fire could burn until 2008 with the

body count rising every day. The man is a dictator, that is a fact. I'm not willing to test out your theory with the lives of our children. I don't want our children to be the logs on YOUR fire that YOU said will burn Bush to a crisp. We're dealing with people in a Country that will stop at nothing in trying to get us out of there, which I don't blame them. They will strap a bomb to themselves in order to kill a few, the draft would cause a blood bath. Our children did not cause this, Bush did.

I'll ask you again, have you ever faced a real draft?

[DrGonzoLives]

175. Sending more innocent kids to their death is "the right thing to do"?

You have a very warped sense of morality.

[Jai4WKC08]

107. I'm against the war but support a draft

I'm also a 20+ year Army veteran, the wife of a 20 year Army vet who was drafted and did his Vietnam tour, and the mother of a senior airman currently on active duty. I entered active service in 1977, so while I served with quite a few draftees, mostly I'm a product of the "All Volunteer" force.

You might also notice that I'm a Clarkie. But Clark does NOT support a return to the draft. This is one area where I disagree with him.

My reasons for supporting the draft are basically these:

1) A nation should never go to war unless it's willing to commit all its resources to the endeavor. If it ain't important enough for everyone to sacrifice, it ain't worth fighting. A small professional military makes it far too easy for the government to engage in military adventurism without the civilian population giving a damn. Pretty much what we have now.

I strongly believe that if we had a draft, there would be a lot more pressure on the administration to get out of Iraq, a greater demand to hold them accountable for their incompetence there, and probably a lot more public discussion and thoughtfulness before we went there in the first place. And yeah, I know it took many years and far too many deaths for sentiment against the Vietnam War to formulate, but this is a different time, with different attitudes and much better communications about what's really going on in distant lands.

2) The US military should be a citizens' military. The people in the military should reflect the values and demographics of the larger population, and the civilians should appreciate and understand something about what it means to be in the military. I didn't use to feel this way, but over the course of my Army career, I saw the military grow culturally farther and farther away from society at large. I strongly suspect it's gotten worse since I got out in 1997. That's not a good thing.

3) I still believe that military service is a good experience for almost any young person. Even tho the Bushies have badly damaged the military as an institution, for the vast majority, it's still a very good way to mature a little, gain some confidence, and see some of the world and the variety of people in it, before making decisions about what one wants to do with his or her life.

4) Not only does the individual benefit from military experience, the community he or she goes back to benefits. One reason red states, and rural areas in general, are so red is because the vast majority of people there have not been exposed to people different from themselves, as well as ideas and opinions different from the ones they grew up with. Most military people are far less racist than their civilian counterparts. In units where women serve, the men tend to be much less sexist. If gays were allowed to serve openly, I think they'd come to be much accepted as well. You also find less extreme religious views among most military personnel, and a greater openness to people who believe differently. When people endure hardship together, and depend upon each other to get thru it, they usually put minor differences in the proper perspective.

One caveat: I would only support a draft that included everyone who was physically and mentally capable of serving, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, and most importantly economic class. If that means inducting more people than the military (as it is organized now) can handle, then we create some sort of civil service corps, with the same basic requirements as far as length of service, pay, living conditions, training etc, and set them to civic tasks that need accomplishment. Lord knows there's a lot that could be done.

Again, I know the draft was not fair in the Vietnam era, but that system was designed back before WWII. I find it hard to believe that in this day and age we could not design a draft where essentially everyone would be required to serve in fundamentally equal measure.

[WoodrowFan]

112. I especially like point #2

the founding fathers were very wary of a standing military as a threat to a democratic government. Since it seems we can't get around having one, I'd prefer that we try to keep the burden from being borne by a self-selected small group for fear that the military will come to see itself as "above" a civilian leadership that never served.

it would have to be a fair draft, however, with alternate service for those who so chose, no outs for the children of the rich and powerful, and no discrimination on gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc....

Question: how many European states still have required service when you turn 18?

[guidod]

116. With women , gays and lesbians

rights being taken away every day, should they have to serve that same country?

[KitSileya]

144. Norway does.

Or rather, did - There's simply no need for that number of people in the army any longer, so they've cut down on the number of young men they call in (it's an inherently sexist institution, as women don't have mandatory service, except they can be drafted if they're 35 and childless to serve in the home guard.) The armed services are generally called Norway's largest kindergarden, as it's usually the first time these young men leave home, and they need to learn how to live on their own.

There are exemptions to service, of course. If you're a conscientious objecter, you can serve by working for the community, such as at schools, non-profit charities etc, but this service is longer than if you serve in the military proper. The Norwegian military has allowed gays to serve openly since 1972, so that's not an issue. Norway's a samll country, with 4.5 million inhabitants, so a voluntary army wasn't feasible in the days of the Cold War, when it was a very choice bit of real estate and needed strong defenses. However, as I mentioned before, Norway is now moving rapidly towards a volunteer force.

[guidod]

115. I hope your son is safe and well...

1) This is not a war but a selective invasion of a Country that has never done us wrong. Our Country went in there on a bunch of lies, remember WMD, Mushroom Cloud, Nuclear Weapons being brought to our Country by un-manned Drone Planes?

I strongly believe that a draft would just add fuel to the fire that is lit under this Dictator, Bush. They will never be held accountable for anything they do when it comes to war. I'm sure you saw his speech where he said we'll be in Iraq until 2009. He has no intentions in stopping this, so called, war. A draft would murder a bunch of our innocent kids.

2) I believe in a mandatory 2 year service for everyone after their schooling and no later than the age of 25. But before this happens we have to take care of Womens Rights and the rights of Gays and Lesbians. Those people that have their rights taken away from them by this Government should never have to serve. All rights have to be equal.

3) The parents of kids today should take a more active roll in seeing that they do mature correctly, not the military. Children should be experiencing life with their families.

4) I agree with you when you say that military people are far less racist and bigoted than their civilian counterparts. Although I have heard of a lot of rape going on in the military with those on the ground in Iraq. Gays should always be allowed to be open and free, in the military or as a civilian.

Again, I hope your Son returns home and safe and well. I hope he can stay out of harms way.

[Jai4WKC08]

145. Thanks for your concern for my son

He is at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, so he's probably reasonably safe. For now, anyway. But he is a weather forecaster, so subject to deploy with Army units. Hasn't had to so far.

I agree with you about the nature of the Iraq War. Altho I wouldn't say Saddam never did anything worth deposing him for, but there was certainly no imminent threat to us, or to the Kurds or "marsh arabs" of the south whom he had abused before, or to his neighbors in the region. He could have been contained to keep him from posing a threat in the future, or dealt with when containment was no longer possible. War should always be the last resort.

I would submit that it's "a bunch of our innocent kids" who are being murdered in Iraq now. They are no less innocent because they volunteered to serve their country as opposed to being drafted. Maybe I'm prejudiced, being the mom of an airman. One think I've always believed, thoughout my own career, is that the soldiers of any army, no matter how detestable the government, are just doing what they believe is their duty and are no more guilty of any crime than anyone else. It's the old men (and in a very few cases old women) who make war and are the problem. Young men and women are always the ones who suffer.

As for being accountable, I agree Bush will invoke his war powers whenever possible. But the fact is, he was given lisence for making war by Congress. I don't think he would have gone into Iraq without it, but if he had, it is quite possible he would not have been re-elected, there would be grounds (even more than there is already, imo) for impeachment, and a better chance of winning back a Congress who would have the balls to impeach.

I sympathize with your argument about women, gays and lesbians not having equal rights and therefore should not be subject to equal requirements. That would certainly be fair. But I don't think the world works that way.

Altho African Americans and other minorities have always served in the military, there's a strong argument that it was their accomplishments in WWII, Korea and Vietnam that had a helluva lot to do with the growth of the Civil Rights movement. I'm sure that how Eisenhower felt about black soldiers he'd served with had much to do with his integrating the military, and sending troops into Little Rock to enforce integration.

One of the good things that has come out of the all-volunteer military is that there were not enough men to do everything, and so the role of women was greatly expanded. As I've said, men who serve with women tend to have much more confidence in our abilities. I also think our cause has been furthered by the public's seeing women perform competently and courageously in Iraq. I can only assume the same will be true when gays and lesbians are openly accepted in the military, as I believe they must eventually be. Even now, most military people know that there are a lot of gays and lesbians serving, and they are far less opposed to the idea than they were even 10 years go.

[incapsulated]

121. Thank you for that post, Jai

You've encapsulated very eloquently and from a unique perspective just how I feel about this. So I'll just say: What she said!

:thumbsup:

[sheelz]

123. Please explain:

You said. "I strongly believe that if we had a draft, there would be a lot more pressure on the administration to get out of Iraq, a greater demand to hold them accountable for their incompetence there, and probably a lot more public discussion and thoughtfulness before we went there in the first place."

I have some questions:

1) Do you believe the administration is reaping benefits from Iraq?
2) If you believe they are reaping benefits, wouldn't a long war be more beneficial?
3) If the administration is benefiting, how can it be seen as incompetence?
4) Do you believe public opinion has changed toward getting out of Iraq?
5) How would public discussion and thoughtfulness before we went to Iraq prevent the administration from going?
6) Do you believe that the administration cares about public opinion?
7) And most important--How do we hold the administration accountable when they steal elections?

[Jai4WKC08]

140. Good questions

I won't pretend to have all the answers, but I'll offer my thoughts.

1) Yes

2) Depends on the ratio of benefits to costs. Even by the most Machiavellian standards (that is, disregarding that it was morally wrong at the outset), the costs of the Iraq War have begun to surpass the benefits. And neither benefits nor costs are limited to money alone.

3) It is possible to be competent in some areas and incompetent in others.

For example, the Bushies are obviously extremely competent in funnelling tax dollars into corporations from which they in some way profit, either financially or politically. They have also been fairly competent in exploiting 9/11, the War on Terror, and to a lesser extent the Iraq War to keep voters scared enough to continue to support them, or at least they were in 2004.

But they have not been competent in directing military operations or defining military objectives. Or, if you prefer, in designing military operations and objectives that sufficiently cover for whatever their real objectives are. They were also extremely incompetent in understanding enough of the nature of warfare to realize Iraq would not be quick and easy, and would require much more in the way of manpower and resources than they had originally believed and were willing to spend. There are lots of other ways they've been incompetent, but probably not worth enumerating here.

In judging competence in Iraq, one has to take a stab at what the real purpose behind the invasion was in the first place. From how you word your question, you seem to believe the situation there is precisely what BushCo intended all along. I'm not so sure.

Quite frankly, I don't really know why Bush&Co was so determined to take us into Iraq. I tend to think there were a lot of reasons. I'm sure one was profit, both in controlling the oil and in directing monies to Halliburton etc. I think another was some sort of pride. A very large percentage of Repubs always felt that Bush41 had failed to "finish the job" in Gulf War I. It was a blot on his record, contributed to his defeat in '92, and Bush43 wanted to erase it. I also think the PNAC/neocons who had helped put Bush43 in office, and been rewarded with high level positions within the administration, really believe the bullshit about creating democracy in the Middle East. At least, Sy Hersh seems to think they do, and he is a credible source.

But in my opinion, the main reason Bush went into Iraq was purely Rovian domestic politics. Especially after 9/11, which gave them the means to do what they'd wanted all along. Bush wanted to get re-elected by playing the strong War President. Land on an aircraft carrier and prance around in a flight suit... that sort of thing. After 9/11, it became clear, real fast, that catching Osama would be hard, or perhaps undesirable. But catching Saddam would, they thought, be easy. They would be "winners" and the voters would love 'em for it and overlook their failures in actually doing anything about terrorism or any of the other problems of the nation.

If this was their main reason, it worked in so far as 2004 was concerned. Bush was re-elected. And yes, I believe that election fraud was involved, but it is still true that a majority of voters approved of Bush as commander-in-chief, and preferred him to Kerry on national security issues. So in that respect, they were competent, but it was all just marketing. And we've always known that Rove (and the machine behind him) is competent at what he does, haven't we?

4) Yes. It's become pretty clear that most people want out of Iraq. I'm not sure that most want to pull out immediately, altho it's getting there too. But that's not the point. Most of those who want out, don't want it bad enough to do much about it. It just doesn't touch their lives closely enough. It's easy to answer a pollster on the telephone asking about Iraq; it's much harder to march, write congress-critters, keep informed of what's really going on... even to vote. Much less vote against incumbents who are bringing pork and promises of more into one's district or state, or "keeping America safe from terrorists." Most Americans don't even take time to think if they have no incentive.

5) Well, if you recall, we had a Democratic-controlled Senate that approved going into Iraq. I doubt they would have voted the way they did if the majority of their constituents had major reservations. Even Repub congress-critters would not be so quick to rubberstamp whatever the President wanted if they thought they might be in danger of losing re-election -- Dubai and the ports, for example (assuming that wasn't a set-up all along).

6) Yes, I do. Like I said above, I think the main reason we went to Iraq was for public opinion. I don't think they care as much now as they did before Nov 2004, but even now they are afraid of losing their majority in Congress. And personally, I think the Bush family wants a dynasty. Jeb Bush in 2012 maybe, and/or another Bush in another generation. Granted that voters have short memories, so maybe how Bush43 is regarded in history won't matter so much. Still, Bush41 didn't exactly leave office with high popularity, so there is most likely some concern about the legacy. And there are others in the administration who would like to have a role in future Repub administrations, maybe hopes to run for elective office themselves, so they care about public opinion as well.

7) The most important question is also the hardest. I dunno. I would offer that it's much easier to steal a presidential election, where you only have to turn one (or perhaps a few) states, and really only a few key precincts in each, than to control every election in every contested district in all 50 states, and a bunch of Senate races as well. If they try to do all that, the odds go way up that direct, irrefutable evidence will be discovered. Fixing many dozens of congressional elections may not even be possible, if it takes trusted agents tampering with boxes or tabulators in back rooms across the nation. But if they try it, they are much more likely to be caught. They may not be willing to risk it. And if they do, well, it's anyone's guess what happens next.

I'll tell ya one thing. If we really are on the road to rebellion, or civil war, or whatever, it's all the more reason to want a military composed of draftees from across the full spectrum of society. It may be too late for it to make a difference, and I don't think (or don't want to believe) that even the professional military we have now would turn against the people of this country just on the orders of a commander-in-chief, especially one like we have now. But we'd be a lot safer with the citizens' military I describe in my first post above.

[sheelz]

161. Thank you for you thorough and thoughtful post to my questions.

I don't have any answers either, just some thoughts:

Bush is a ruthless dictator that will do anything to hold onto power. Even if it means going to war, destroying our Constitution and spying on peaceful citizens--to name a few.

We now know that Bush planned on taking us to Iraq since at least July 2002. The reasons to he went to Iraq are numerous. I do agree that he went to Iraq for Rovian domestic politics but it was much more than that. I strongly believe he has bigger plans than Iraq because he is setting up permanent bases. Hence, there is no military objective other than to stay put and secure bases. His next step is to take aim at Iran.

We also know that our elections were stolen and they will do so again to continue with his plan and keep his ass out of trouble. We've caught them stealing elections before! And we are still trying to sort that out. When, not if, they steal the elections this fall, we'll be sorting that out too. They have trusted agents all over the place including Tiebold and ES&S. And it will be more time consuming to sort it out if it is stolen broadly, while they quietly regain control--again!

Because Bush and his goons have stolen elections and no way to hold them accountable. He doesn't care about election polls because they tell truths about the elections. He doesn't care about public opinion polls because he doesn't care about the people. He could care less about the citizens of this county and the military. Just take a look at his budgets.

I'm not sure how close, if at all, we are to a rebellion but I would have to say that it could get really ugly and bloody. A bloody revolution would make little difference whether citizens were drafted or not. Even if every citizen "took to the streets" against the draft or against the administration, Bush would use that as a justification to take action--by taking us all out. Bush has "big toys" and mercenaries at his disposal, and he will to use them if he was "backed into a corner."

I'm not even sure we could "back him in a corner" because we don't have the power to do so. He'd hide in his bunker. And he wouldn't resign in disgrace. The dictator doesn't care and he's got Homeland Security to help with that. I believe the true mission of "Homeland Security" is to be our keepers. I don't want any of our military (voluntary or involuntary) to be part of that.

I'm more apt to believe he will go to war within this county, as once proposed, and I don't know how to make it stop! This I know--I wouldn't want to give them anymore lives to destroy!

[DrGonzoLives]

176. Nothing like forced servitude

Why don't we dictate to people when they're born what their career path would be?

And when did human beings become "resources" for a government to use at will?

[cantstandbush]

118. Think about it!! We want to end the war. A draft would do it!! n/t

[sheelz]

122. I've thought about it!

Please tell me how would a draft end the war?

[guidod]

125. He can't tell you because

he's just guessing. There's a lot of people here at DU that seem to know just what a draft would do. How many children have to die before they say "Wow, I was wrong". I wonder if they wil send me a sympathy card when my Nephew gets killed. I've been reading your posts, you make a lot of sense. Keep fighting the good fight!

[sheelz]

130. Yes, it's guessing--

that's the real problem with our country. People are stuck and don't question/challenge their beliefs, which requires self-reflection, time and effort.

Thanks for all your support too! And I really appreciate the LBGT rights thread--the response is terrific.

[guidod]

131. Gay rights and the draft

are very worthy of constant debate. I don't believe how many are against the war but for a draft.

[Telly Savalas]

127. Quit thinking about it and mix me a martini...

it will help me cure my alcoholism.

[sheelz]

129. I'm bartender then....

Would you care for an oLIVE with that?

/type

[name not needed]

220. Ok! You go first!

[madmunchie]

119. To stay out of wars

If EVERYBODY had to serve their country in some type of service wo any exceptions, then if Washington wanted to go to war, they would have the whole country caring about the decision, not just people who follow politics or people who have loved ones in the service.

Putting everyone's loved one on the line, would ensure peace in this country and keep us out of all of these wars of choice.

[Mountainman]

120. That's bullshit! What is preventing war in Iran is the lack of troops.

You give the neocons an unlimited supply of cannon fodder and it will be PNAC all day everyday! We need to end this war and not build up our military but rather spend that money on social justice issues.

[guidod]

128. Two years of mandatory sevice after

your schooling is over and before the age of 25 would be a great idea. When I say service that doesn't mean it has to be military service, just 2 years service to your Country. That would take a lot of the load off of our stateside military to free them up and keep our Country safe. Israel does something like that and it works real good.

[madmunchie]

132. Exactly! What you said is exactly what I think!

[madmunchie]

133. You miss the point.

People would be in the streets in 2 seconds flat if their child was possibly going to have to go to war. That is the problem, most people aren't personally touched by war. It is somebody else's kid that is fighting the war. Most upper and middle class people aren't involved because their kids aren't involved. Get EVERYBODY involved and all of a sudden you have a lot of angry parents when talk of going to war comes up. The people will rise up when the war hits home and stop all of these unnecessary wars.

[Sapere aude]

136. I'm not missing the point. Just like the Vietnam war, there would be

years of war between the time the draft is put in place and the end of the war. In that interim the war would be escalated and more of our kids would be killed or injured. As it is, the war cannot be escalated because there are not enough troops.

You seem to think that if the draft were put in place wars would suddenly come to an end. It would not be like that. We need to end the war without more killing.

[madmunchie]

138. Now may not be a good time to start this, but mandatory service

WOULD be the best fight against wars possible. Vietnam doesn't really count because too many rich kids could get out of the draft. What I am talking about is 100% participation without the "loopholes" for the rich kids to get out of service. Remember Congress has kids to, they won't be voting to put us into another war when their own children will be serving.

[guidod]

160. You're exactly right! I think

all the people that are for a draft have never been in one. NO DRAFT.

[guidod]

126. I agree, Israel seems to know

what they're doing. The question is, what do we do right now? The draft is not a good answer.

[madmunchie]

134. Even talk of the draft raises bp.

Talking about draft on a national level will send people over the edge. Democrats can't introduce it now, that is for sure because it will bury them. Let the Neocons introduce it. I still think that some type of mandatory national service is a great safeguard for this country.

[guidod]

150. I think it would be a wonderful

safeguard for this Country, and I haven't seen one person here at DU that disagrees. But that's tomorrow, we need an answer for today. I think preasuring this administration is starting to take a foot hold, we have to keep it up one day at a time and do all we can do to ensure our children aren't made to pay for our mistakes. The National Debt is going to be a big enough problem for them to take to task.

Never quit, peace

[DFW]

135. I was looking at the draft, too

when I turned 18 in 1970.

I remembered the "old enough to fight, old enough to vote" slogan (it worked).
I was freaking out at the draft, and remembered a friend who flunked out
of college, was classified 1-A for the draft, and joined the Air Force and
got a cushy spy job in West Berlin because he spoke German and Russian.

I could have used the same argument, I suppose, and escaped Vietnam, but
I would have felt bad about getting out of it just for that. Look at Bush
Lite--he got out of Vietnam service as well. I lucked out, as the draft ended
before my 2-S ended (class of '74, draft ended in '73).

I say send the children of those who vote for the war. It's a completely
infeasible solution, of course, but it will point to the hypocrisy of those
who support the troops, but don't want their kids to be among them. Michael
Moore was dead on when he tried to get Republicans to promise support the war
by sending their own kids to Iraq. It made a point that hadn't been made
elsewhere, and it showed up the Republicans better than any essay could have.

One question--I wonder how many volunteers the military would get if the
economy were so good that anyone could get a decent paying job after a
free education?

[Spinoza]

137. All the arguments

in favor of a draft come down to the fact that the people who now support a draft feel they have good reasons to force my 21 year old son and 25 year old daughter to serve, against their will, in the military because a draft will force Bush to end the war. What if you are wrong and my children die? What if you are right, but it takes a couple years and my children die? Will you take their place?

We all knew during Vietnam that a draft--being forced to serve in a military against your will--was evil. No amount of Machiavellian political strategizing about how to end the war in Iraq can change that simple fact.

[guidod]

159. That's exactly what I'm asking

everybody that's pro draft, they have no answer. Keep your son and daughter close to you don't let go, peace.

[carboncat]

139. Draft

Because, if it is instituted, it will be the end of Bush. And because it would make America take the war more seriously--seriously ending it!

[guidod]

158. To hell with starting a draft and killing

our children, why don't YOU join the military? Are you willing to risk all of those young lives on your theory? Would you have a horse in the race?

[NVMojo]

141. 1. they wouldn't be drafted, 2. no kids, 3. kids too old to be drafted,

should I go on? This issue is one that is generally supported by those who have nothing to lose in it.

[guidod]

151. I think you hit the nail on the head.

You would think that a lot of people that responded to this thread were from the "GUNGHO" other side. Let me put it out way out there and ask them if they would be ok with their Mother being drafted? It really has pained me to see some of these so called progressive responses.

[bbgrunt]

142. "what would be your reason for sending our innocent scared

kids off to die for our failures?"

the question confuses the draft and reasons for war. These are really two separate questions except that it is MUCH easier to support purported reasons for war when you have "no skin in the game". The draft forces more people to be vigilant about the reasons for war. It makes citizens take news more seriously.

Frankly, the ignorance of a sizeable chunk of the amerikan public needs a little incentive to pay attention and have some stake in the outcome of their votes. Perhaps elections would be more than a beauty pagent if there weren't so many "free-riders" on military might of "those who have volunteered" to fight for values and freedoms we take for granted.

I really believe that one of the things that helps divide this country is the idea that you can buy someone else to defend your heritage.

[guidod]

155. I agree with what you're saying,

I just don't think a draft would take care of the immediate problem we have in Iraq. I also don't think a draft would be the proper wake-up call for Americans to be more responsible for the way they vote, but I do agree they should have their feet held to the fire in some manner.

I think what we need to do, to deal with "free-riders" and stop them from abusing our freedoms and values, is to create a 2 year mandatory service program. You would have to serve our Country for 2 years after your schooling and before the age of 25. This doesn't mean it would have to be military service, but service to where you could take a lot of the preasure off of our military at home. Make it to where EVERYONE has to serve for 2 years one way or another.

I have no idea what we should do about todays problem with Iraq, but I don't think drafting is the proper avenue to take.

[bbgrunt]

163. I like the service idea.......we need something to

make citizens feel that they have a stake in the game. Of course, a draft would do that too, as long as it could be administered fairly. A service requirement would certainly not face the opposition of a draft and would more likely be complied with without shenanigans.

I too, have no idea how to keep Iraq from becoming the opening shot of WWIII.

[Turn CO Blue]

143. I know why DU'ers vote in support of the draft

It is to raise the visibility of the issue. They vote that way to make a statement because if there were a draft, everyone in the US would be exposed to the same risk as are the disadvantaged youths who are currently fighting in this god-forsaken war.

Well, it terrifies me as the mother of a 21-year old.

IMHO, people should vote how they truly feel about the draft as a concept in the United States (and not just vote how they feel about the draft for this particular war) and NOT vote symbolically.

These kids are not symbolic -- it would be real blood they would be spilling. I don't care if they're rich or poor, male or female, educated, uneducated, Republican or anarchist, gay, straight or purple. I don't want anybody's kids dying in this misbegotten war. Their lives have barely begone.

[guidod]

153. Spoken from from the heart and

I agree with you 100%

[mdmc]

148. We would not be in Iraq if Chelsea and the twins had to go

:kick:

[Book Lover]

149. There simply IS no reason for a draft

If for no other reason than a draft is illegal. Forcing a citizen to serve in the military against their will is called involuntary servitude and was outlawed by the 13th Amendment to the federal constitution.

[WinkyDink]

152. To shut the little rich right-wing bastards up, that's why.

[guidod]

154. So you don't have a problem risking

the lives of innocent children "To shut the little rich right-wing bastards up"?

[0007]

166. Are YOU taking the temperature today?

[LeFleur1]

168. Crazed Leader

Why would anyone take a chance on a draft when a crazed leader could be elected who would use them for fodder in his/her own greedy cause? What kind of people would wish that on their children? or on themselves?

Don't ever think that the rich kids would go to war. They never have and they never will.
As for a 'war of purpose'...people in the USA would enlist in a minute if they thought their country was in need, as when Pearl Harbor was attacked by an organized army of a country who wished to dominate the world.

Unless a person is willing to volunteer for a draft, they should not be voting for a draft.

[0007]

172. I suggest that you become acquainted with Howard Zinn

[Ariana Celeste]

171. My generation isn't fodder.

My generation isn't here for either side's political battles.

My generation shouldn't be sent out to die so either side can prove a point.

Not everyone in my generation votes- does everyone in your generation vote?

Not everyone in my generation cares as much as they should- does everyone in your generation care?


Who honestly thinks that rich people won't be able to prevent their kids going to war, to die?

I seem to remember reading that our dear pResident got out of it...

How many of you who support the draft have children my age? How many of you have siblings that are my age? What would you be sacrificing if a draft was put in place? Anything?

Or is my generation nothing but so much fodder to you, so long as your side eventually wins?

Sometimes I wonder, if a draft wouldn't change some people's minds. But then, I only wonder. I would never vote for it or take the thought seriously. Nobody should be sent out to die for the wars of old men who won't sacrifice anything. Let alone to help someone's side in the political arena.

[DrGonzoLives]

180. Of course you're fodder

Your generation is too "self-centered" and "apathetic" anyway, so they deserve to die.

The logic is so clear - let's wake them up and get them politically active by sending them to die. Brilliant!

[guidod]

185. I didn't say one thing about

your generation. "THE WARS OF OLD MEN" WTF. I lived through a draft, I served my Country and I hope I never see a draft again. If they came up with a draft for one though, I would suggest YOU. :dunce: :spank:

[Ariana Celeste]

187. Hold on a sec hun- that's directed at

all the folks around here saying my generation should be drafted- not you.

[guidod]

188. I don't want to see any of your generation drafted"HUN"

only you.

[Ariana Celeste]

190. Excuse me,

I said my post was directed at people who DO want my generation drafted. Not you. Okay? Not you.

Rather than post the same reply to every pro-draft post on this thread, I just posted it once.

But please, continue to take it personally and be rude to me.

[guidod]

192. You started off by separating your

generation from my generation. Your generation voting compared to my generation voting, your generation not caring compared to my generation not caring. You also should have never called people in my generation old men, I'm one year younger than Bush.

When you hit reply it was a reply to my original post, you were talking directly to me. Next time you should pick your targets within the thread instead of the one that posted it. If I offended you I apologize.

[truebrit71]

183. Because as soon as the 'patriots of convenience' might ACTUALLY have to...

..walk the walk, and not just talk the talk, you will hear a massive change in the invective from the rethuglicans....

[Joey Liberal]

189. I favor the draft because......

If everyone in this country shared the burden and the losses in Iraq, more people would not support the war. Currently, the war is being fought by middle and lower class Americans. That's the only way this country will wake up and put an end to the madness in Iraq.

[guidod]

191. Are you serious?!

We are sharing the loses in Iraq, I get angry every time I hear of an American death. Have you ever lived during a draft? Are you, or any of your kids, the right age to be drafted? How many thousands of chidren would have to die before the Bush idiots wake up? It would only fuel the fire in Iraq. Have you ever faced the possibility of being drafted?

[Joey Liberal]

193. I'm an Army veteran

Have you ever faced the possibility of being drafted?
-------
Since I served Uncle Sam, that is a moot point. I understand your feelings. What Bush has done is he has placed the burden of his war in Iraq on kids from lower and middle incomes. We are a nation at war, but we are not mobilized like WW2. Rich kids don't need to serve. The fastest way to get us out of Iraq is to start a draft. When republicans see their kids getting drafted and sent to Iraq, they'll have a change of heart about the war. After all, most republicans are chickenhawks.

[sheelz]

194. Did you even bother to read the original post?

[guidod]

195. Thanks sheelz!

I'm glad someone has my back. We have a lot of work to do! This is getting tougher and tougher and tougher! I had no idea that people that say they are progressive, they hate Bush and they hate this so called war are so willing to see more suffering. I will hold everyone here, that likes the draft, responsible if there is a blood bath! Thanks again!

[sheelz]

196. Happy to help a friend out.

I'll hold them accountable too. I'd go to prison before I support a draft or be drafted. They could never get me to pickup a weapon and fight in this so called war. Hell, I'd take my life before I killed innocent people. But, that's just me....

[Joey Liberal]

202. Yes.

Please do not misunderstand me. My only point is that when we do go to war, there should be a draft. If the whole country had to send kids to war, they would not be so quick to support it. As it stands now, rich republican kids arent joining the military. As a veteran, I certainly would not want any kid to be forced to endure Army basic training or Marine boot camp - involuntarily - and then have to go to Iraq. Rep. Rangle's whole point was that if the republicans (most of them non-veterans) in the Congress were so eager for war, maybe they would change their tune if we started a draft. I'm against the draft in principle. But we now find ourselves in a situation where one segment of the population is shouldering the burden of an illegal and unjust war. Perhaps if that burden was shared equally, the war would end. Why are there no mass anti-war demonstrations like the ones we had during Vietnam? Because there is no draft.

[sheelz]

203. I'm confused...

You're for the draft to go to war but against the draft principle? :wtf:

How many demonstrating people would it take for Bush to pull out of Iraq?

[Joey Liberal]

204. Confused?

You're for the draft to go to war but against the draft principle? -- Thats right.

How many demonstrating people would it take for Bush to pull out of Iraq? -- We'll never know unless we try.

[sheelz]

218. Would you protest the war or the draft?

What makes you think "rich" kids will be drafted?

[guidod]

197. It is not a moot point.

There's a lot of difference from serving in the Army and facing a Draft. Another poster asked you if you ever read the original post, did you? If you did you'll see that I know what a draft is all about. A draft can destroy a teens future and destroy families whether you're drafted or not. It is a very dark, dark time fior all.

We are NOT a nation at war. We are a nation that is suffering because of an illegal invasion of another country, which most think never should have happened. We are illegally occupying a country that was no threat to us.

A lot of people here at DU think a draft would put an immediate stop to what's happening in Iraq. It wouldn't, it would kill thousands of innocent children. Google Vietnam and hopefully you'll get a different perspective on the draft.

[Generator]

198. I don't know maybe

it would get some asses in the streets besides those from Mexico. Just a thought. War is destroying this country financially but let's blame medicare or the mexicans or something else-the zillions for this sham war (don't even think about the Iran one-though our Condi is-see LBN-we don't need no stinkin nukes to invade man!) could pay for so so much.

[sheelz]

199. Here are two articles worth a read:

Why There's No Strategy to End This War
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060410/beatthedevil

Howard Zinn: Lessons of Iraq War Start With US History
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/story.php?sid=03190604505

[guidod]

200. Great links, thanks.

[sheelz]

201. Yes, so many Presidents lie to us.

If we don't know history, then we are ready meat for carnivorous politicians and the intellectuals and journalists who supply the carving knives.

By Howard Zinn

<snip>

President Polk lied to the nation about the reason for going to war with Mexico in 1846. It wasn't that Mexico "shed American blood upon the American soil" but that Polk, and the slave-owning aristocracy, coveted half of Mexico.

President McKinley lied in 1898 about the reason for invading Cuba, saying we wanted to liberate the Cubans from Spanish control, but the truth is that he really wanted Spain out of Cuba so that the island could be open to United Fruit and other American corporations. He also lied about the reasons for our war in the Philippines, claiming we only wanted to "civilize" the Filipinos, while the real reason was to own a valuable piece of real estate in the far Pacific, even if we had to kill hundreds of thousands of Filipinos to accomplish that.

President Wilson lied about the reasons for entering the First World War, saying it was a war to "make the world safe for democracy," when it was really a war to make the world safe for the rising American power.

President Truman lied when he said the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima because it was "a military target."

And everyone lied about Vietnam -- President Kennedy about the extent of our involvement, President Johnson about the Gulf of Tonkin and President Nixon about the secret bombing of Cambodia. They all claimed the war was to keep South Vietnam free of communism, but really wanted to keep South Vietnam as an American outpost at the edge of the Asian continent.

President Reagan lied about the invasion of Grenada, claiming falsely that it was a threat to the United States.

The elder Bush lied about the invasion of Panama, leading to the death of thousands of ordinary citizens in that country. And he lied again about the reason for attacking Iraq in 1991 -- hardly to defend the integrity of Kuwait, rather to assert U.S. power in the oil-rich Middle East.

There is an even bigger lie: the arrogant idea that this country is the center of the universe, exceptionally virtuous, admirable, superior.

<more here>
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/story.php?sid=03190604505



How could anybody know what they're being drafted for?

[pras38]

206. The Red White and Blue

Tribute To The American Flag
This piece of cloth is a composite of each of you, your ideals,
your hopes, and your dreams. It is a symbol of a government
that is built on a dream of equality, freedom and hope, but its fulfillment is dependent on each of you.

Our flag of Red, White and Blue-
Red, not of blood shed but a Love spread from one another,
White as a crystalization of all the wonderful teachings of a good life, and
Blue of condfidence.
Confidence in your flag, your country , and its confidence in you.

Is anybody there? Does anybody care?
I care and I pledge my allegiance to the Flag of the United States
and to that great republic for which she stands.

Wherever it waves, it reassures men of the existance and the
power of freedom and democracy, it reassures them of their own abilities to govern themselves.

Over the field of battle, it serves to remind soldiers
of that for which they fight,and too often die.

I was born and American, I shall live as an American and I shall die as an American, ever ready to dedicate myself to its call and its stars and stripes-

The American Flag

[guidod]

211. That's all great,

Would you support a draft? Welcome to DU!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

207. Because DUers know there's no possibility of it happening.

That means that they feel confident to take silly, posturing positions to make their points.

I am reasonably confident that if there were actually a vote on the introduction of the draft and it looked as though it might actually happen, the support on DU would melt away overnight. I certainly *hope* it would.

[guidod]

213. It's nice to hear someone say

"I am reasonably confident" instead of "This is what will happen". Thank you so much and I agree.:) :)

[coalition_unwilling]

208. The point (I think) is that in a republic, the costs of

participation should be borne equally by all citizens of the republic. That is, little spoiled rich kids shouldn't be able to use their wealth and privilege to buy themselves an exemption from the price of being a citizen in a republic.

Repukes are just fine with these imperialist excursions, as long as it's poor whites, blacks and Latinos doing the fighting. But the minute their own precious flesh and blood had its ass put on the line, you'd see the imperialist agenda come to a screeching halt. (I think).

Here's my evidence (purely anecdotal): every time one of those rich, snot-nosed Repuke punks rolls by our anti-war vigil in their $70,000 SUV and yells that we are "traitors," I ask them why they don't sign up. Their answer falls into one of two categories generally:

a) "I'm more important to the war effort at home"

or

b) "Fuck you for even suggesting I enlist in support of my beliefs."

[guidod]

214. Thanks for making your post

a "I think" issue. It makes me angry as well when I see some of these idiot repugs not standing up and back what they're saying. Those are definitely chicken
hawks. A draft might grab a few of them but I think it would kill a lot more innocent children than it would take the chicken hawks.

My opinion of a draft is that it should NEVER happen.

[skeeters2525]

212. Draft NOW

I'm sure this has been covered, but since you asked.

Draft right now. And no exemptions, zero, nada, call out the Bushites.

You would see this evil war end tommorow.

[guidod]

215. Why did you say "You would see the evil war end tommorow"

Where do you get the idea that the "EVIL WAR" would end tomorrow? It didn't in Vietnam and I do't think it would here. How many thousands of innocent children would have to die before you would think the draft is a bad idea?

Welcome to DU! :hi: