what constitutes "far left" or left wing "extremists"?

[yurbud]

I'm not talking about particular groups, but actual positions or analysis.

Before Bush, I would have said that I was about 2% left of center, but the so-called far left was more accurate in their analysis about what Bush was doing and what the outcome would be, and seemed to deal more honestly with the facts than the self-proclaimed moderates who seem to apologize for and rationalize the Bushies indefensible policies.

When someone says far left, do they mean wrong, or just that you can't win with these beliefs?

But more importantly, what is so left it's beyond reasonable discussion in American politics?

[Initech]

1. Far left = anyone who doesnt agree with the neocons

[yurbud]

2. I'll answer my own question to start: centrally planned economy

we don't need everything to be government run with a bureaucrat deciding how much toilet paper we need.

I think people of all political stripes got at least that much out of the fall of the soviet union.

[rman]

71. Depends on how much planning is involved;

You may not have toilet paper planned, while still having minimum wage laws and regulation of corporations (ie environmental protections). Environmental protections do have an effect on the economy because it increases cost and reduces profits of corporations. Only RW hardliners characterize that as extreme left.

[Ian David]

3. The extreme left wants to set all household pets free...

and force everyone to recycle drinking water from urine in their own homes.

I'm just guessing.

I've never met an "extreme" leftist before.

[yurbud]

6. you should never drink your own urine--a friend's, yes. Not your own

[Hardrada]

4. Neocons don't argue anything reasonably.

In my opinion.

[rocktivity]

5. They mean "wrong"--especially if they're ON the "right"

Bill O'Reilly tried to use this tactic against Cindy Sheehan, calling her a "puppet" of the "extreme" left simply on the grounds that she didn't like what Bush was doing. Of course, if you were to call him a extremist on the grounds that he wants left-wingers to be arrested for treason, he'd pop a blood vessel!

Therefore, I now consider being called a "far" or "extreme" leftist a compliment. It means that we're doing SOMETHING right...if you pardon the expression!

:headbang:
rocknation

[yurbud]

7. yep--I was hoping to see what the moderate and DLC dems said

and those two groups aren't the same though they overlap (business friendly versus business owned).

[DBoon]

8. any group with "marxist", "revolutionary", or "communist" in their name

Anyone who wastes their time discussing what Trotsky said in 1933

My definition of "far left" is an absolutely insignificant group of loonies, probably populated more with police agents than actual members.

I think you actually have to get as far left as these marginalized groups to find someone as extreme as the groups that (on the right) make up the "mainstream" of Bush's republican party.

I think someone trying to rehabilitate Joe McCarthy or excusing WWII internment of Japanese is just as wacko as someone who reads the Little Red Book.

[yurbud]

10. Trotsky wrote something on individual terrorism that was actually useful

He said it changes nothing and is easily demonized, and nothing will change until masses of people rise up together.

Other than that, I can't read those guys, it's either shitty translations or so arcane I don't get it.

[Ian David]

17. I don't consider Marxists, Maoists and such to be "on the left"

They're just Nazis with a poor business plan.

I consider them to be right-wing exploiters of leftist ideals. Like the Libertarians are.

[Andromeda]

39. Actually, Marxists/Maoists laid the foundation....

for the Socialist movement which is far left, not far right.

[Ian David]

44. Sorry, but I don't consider communism to be "liberal" n/t

[High Plains]

52. Your definition of the left is idiosyncratic.

Yes, communism is not liberal. It is leftist.

The left is the socialist tradition.

What is called "leftism" in the US--say the political positions of Ted Kennedy--is "leftism" only in the fevered imagination of people like Sean Hannity.

And what you're calling leftism--animal rights people, for instance--is, I dunno what the hell it is, but it ain't leftism.

[satireV]

54. It's Ludditism (eom) (Animal rights kooks that is)

[Ian David]

62. The PeTA people confuse me, too.

I see your point.

But I think that liberals need to find a way to separate us from the communists by more than just a perceived spectrum of relative left-ism.

I feel about as much of a kinship to communists as I do with people who eat worms.

[MadMaddie]

9. Anyone that opposes the * cabal regime..

Anyone that believes in the "seperation of church and state"
Anyone that believes in equal rights for all Americans....
Anyone that believes we should Not attack countries that didn't attack us..

[Zodiak]

11. The term "far left" is tossed around DU liberally

to describe DUers who wish to vote for progressives, populists, and fighters as opposed to some of our present Democratic politicians. By this definition, about 80% of DU would fit this definition.

"far left" is synonymous with "loony left", "whacko liberals", "purists", and other such denigrations hurled in an attempt to marginalize and intimidate.

This use of the term is a misnomer and does not contribute to the overall discussion, but in the context of where you ask the question, this wuld be the answer.

My personal definition of "far left" includes American communists, PETA activists, and "humanure" recyclers. Maybe 0.1% of the total population can be considered "far left", but I think that is beng too generous. The US is too conservative for leftwing extremists to take root here,to be honest.

If you wanted a definition of "far left" that applies to American politics and can generally be agreed upon, the best definition I can come up with are Democratic Socialists and anyone further to the left than that. Still a pretty small group, but considering that they envision the best government as looking like the European model, they would be status quo middle-of-the-roaders in Europe.

[yurbud]

29. yep, it's use here made me ask the question.

[mrgorth]

12. It seems to me that

to some on this board if you support:
universal health care
strategic troop redeployment ala Murtha
a freeze or cut in the military budget
living wage
civil unions

you are "far left".

[Odin2005]

13. "far Left" Usually means...

...left-wingers of a marxist, anarcho-socialist, anarcho-syndicalist, green, or generally anti-capitalist bent; as opposed to the mainstream "social democratic" left that doesn't reject capitalism.

[AtomicKitten]

14. left extremists

IMO are those don't care if Republicans win an election as long as it teaches the Democrats a lesson. That lession? That we must only support and elect candidates they approve.

[bpilgrim]

20. ah, so any one who doesn't agree with you?

thats a pretty broad brush.

peace

[AtomicKitten]

25. Ah, is that what I said? NO

Read what I wrote and quit trying to impose your own agenda.

You sign your posts "peace." Mean it instead of twisting words to be purposefully provocative.

[bpilgrim]

26. that's how it comes off to me

fyi

peace

[FrenchieCat]

15. Extremists on both the Left and the Right that see things as they should

be, according to their own particular ideology.....

In fact, Extremists tend to stress the way that things ought to be, but usually leave out the steps on how to get there based on the true reality of our current politics.

So in the end result, Extremists can't really advocate a workable solution based on the frame called reality as much as railing about the problem.

Leftist Extremists believe that this America is an emperialistic capitalistic fascist and sadistic nation (which it is)....and that it has always been this way (which it has)....and that Government has always had a selfish ulterior motive for most of what it does (which is also true), including what some might call benevolent enterprises.

The problem, however, is that the solutions that Extremists espouse in solving these Government institutionalized issues are idealistically extreme and cannot be realized in the time and opportunities alloted to those who would make a difference. In essence, the solutions offered are an impossibility in today's world, and therefore are rendered ineffective. In addition, anyone not espousing the same impossible solutions are considered to be "them aginst us"....as the extremists as very little patiences for the Grey....and like it's Extremist Right opposite see much in the Black and the White.

[bpilgrim]

22. impossible solutions

so i suppose that according to your definition that the moderates are the final arbiters on what is possible, then?

i disagree, i think that history has shown that it is the motivated & passionate (read: extremist) who are the catalyst for all significant change in society.

we are all in this together, to attack your agents for change (the motivated & passionate) only serves to undermine everyones cause, a better life.

i think the labels are stupid and wholely political labels designed to stifle debate by stigmatizing the person and their ideas.

we all want to win & we all want change - lets shake up the status-quo... TOGETHER!

peace

[FrenchieCat]

24. To clearify.....

"Impossible solutions" in that they cannot be implemented based on the climate of politics as it stand.

Moderates are not the abirtrators of anything and I do not consider them to be the flip side of Extremists.....

Rather, when incremental steps are required (which is the normally the case) to institute reform for change in the long run, I would say that those who understand the need for incremental steps will get more of what they want, than those seeking a complete reversal or an overthrow of the current system.

Extremists, just like moderates have ranges within their own labeled groups.

as well...there are many "groups" who are neither extremists nor are they moderates....and most to none in any of these "Labeled" groups think alike.

So at the end of the day, you are correct that labels do a disservice to any debate....however, in addressing the OP, I provided a general description of what I believe to be the difference in the manner in which various groups (extremists vs. non extremists) go about prescribing antidotes to our national ailments.

I am not a moderate....but I am also not an extremist.

[bpilgrim]

27. sounds the same to me...

unless you mean extremist are unwilling to compromise and i would agree with that definition but i don't agree that change comes only in baby steps, i think it depends on the situation.

and my questions stands, who decides what the 'climate of politics as it stand' is?

who decides what the best approach is in any given situation?


we do, together...

i think that the labels of 'far left' used here and elsewhere are cheap political ploys to smear.

[FrenchieCat]

35. Who decides? The media and the voters, that's who decides....

sometimes it's the Supreme Court, which is how the Court Jester was put on the throne.

Think back to the civil rights movement, the sufragette movement, the Abolitionist movement, the Mudracker movement and the labor movement....all did take steps to their eventual goal (of course the Abolitionist got helped by a civil war...but it still took years)....because they were forced to work to change Public opinion in order to achieve their goals, and this was done incrementally......the public opinion of the majority....

Do you actually think these movements accomplished what was required overnight? I can tell you that they didn't. It took years and years.....and work and work...and those were in the days were the press was much more a representation of the 4th estate than it is now.

PS. The Civil Rights movement got started in the late 40s.....and we got legislation that counted by the mid 60s.

There is a Far Left out there.....whether you wish to acknowledge it or not....just like there is a Far Right! However, the Far Right has recently shifted to right of center as we speak (because they hold some of the cards now).....and the Far Left is now what some would call radicals because the Far Right says so....

[bpilgrim]

36. thats what i said, we do... TOGETHER

and the struggle may last decades true enough, but with out the struggle lead by the motivated and passionate, aka the 'extremist' nothing would ever get through the muddled middle or the M$M propaganda.

when the people lead (take it to the streets) the 'leaders' follow.

my point isn't that there aren't extremist, my point is that the labels thrown about on here and elsewhere are empty political slogans meant to stifle debate.

peace

[yurbud]

31. you can work with a righty if you both accept evidence and

use to point toward what works best.

The lefty would start from the government solution, and the righty from the private solution, but if both are honest about the data, they could end up in the same place.

The additional problem is that we often don't share the same goals.

The left wants the most good for the most people, and the right wants the most goods in the gated community.

[bvar22]

66. I see things

"I see things as they should be and ask why not?." - John F. Kennedy

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[FrenchieCat]

68. Actually, John Kennedy did not say speak the words you attribute to him...

However, he did say "All this will not be finished in the first hundred days. Nor will it be finished in the first thousand days, nor in the life of this administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin. "-- John F. Kennedy

as well as these other quotes...

"Our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. The human mind is our fundamental resource. "


"Peace is a daily, a weekly, a monthly process, gradually changing opinions, slowly eroding old barriers, quietly building new structures. "

[JABBS]

16. what constitutes "far left" or left wing "extremists"?

anyone that disagrees with the Bush Administration. The conservative analyst brought in by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting said Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) and former Republican Presidential Candidate Pat Buchanan were liberals, for pete's sake.

Facts scare these conservatives, so it's easier to resort to name calling and a broad effort to cloud the effort and change the subject. They are too scared of letting their bubble burst.

For a regular stream of examples, check out JABBS' coverage of the loony things said by the likes of Mark Levin and Sean Hannity, as well as the likes of Bill Frist or Rick Santorum. Party before country!!!!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. I'm not sure the two are the same, necessarily.

I think far left is purely a matter of political positions adopted, but - here on DU, at any rate - the difference between extremists and moderates is as much one of attitude as of positions. Broadly speaking, if you pride yourself on your willingness to compromise, you're a moderate, and if you pride yourself on your unwillingness to do so you're an extremist.

I've regularly seen flame wars between "purgers" and "sell-outs" who didn't, I suspect, actually disagree about actual political positions all that much, but had wildly different ideas about strategy.

Which is not to say that that's a silly reason to argue - there are strong cases to be made both that the Democrats presenting themselves as practical pragmatists instead of honourable idealists, or vice versa, will significantly help or harm their chances of election.

As to "far left", I think it's partly a matter of context - a politician who is far-let in America may well be quite moderate in Europe. The two obvious approaches, assuming the feasibility of plotting every member of an electorate on a left-right scale (which is clearly absurd, but still) are to say that the leftmost N% of the electorate are "far left", in which case N is probably between 10 and 20, or to say that anyone more than M standard deviations away from the mean (or arguably the median) is "far left", FSVO M. Saying this doesn't help anyone much, but I've been revising maths all day and my head is buzzing slightly.

[stray cat]

19. I think it is irrational bigoted hatred for anyone who disagrees

regardless of stance. All positions can be debated and discussed in the absence of irrational hatred and depersonalization of people.

[gratuitous]

21. They're probably referring to me

{Hangs head in shame}

[dogman]

23. In my mind it's circular not linear.

They have gone so far that they meet the extreme right in terms of solutions. They are willing to destroy anything that stands in their way to accomplish their goals.

[yurbud]

32. stalin or the Chinese Cultural Revolution is where one end

bites the other.

If all power is in the hands of few, how it got there is moot.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Exactly!

People like to think it is a "Likert" scale, but you are correct, it is not linear, it is circular. The extremes are one and the same, just with wishes for different outcomes, of sorts. I have actually seen here, "you are with us or against us." The irony was totally lost on the poster that he was parroting the same bullshit of the extreme right. The "loony left" and the "radical right" are the same beast: extremists who cannot and do not tolerate dissent to their respective positions.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. Extremism = incendiary devices.

Everything up to that point is just politics.

[yurbud]

30. that's the problem with McCarthyism--it doesn't trust the

"marketplace of ideas" to sift out the bad ones--or maybe their afraid the bad ones are actually good, just not for them.

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. For me far left means someone who seeks the imminent revolutionary

transformation of society. This is not necessarily a pejorative. For example I think if one described Noam Chomsky or Howard Zinn as far left, I do not think that is an insult to them and their work. It is a simply a statement that that believe in the imminent revolutionary transformation of society.

Left-wing extremist I think is a pejorative and refers to groups that take no account of current conditions in their advocacy of revolutionary transformation. I think one could reasonably call the Sparticist League for example left-wing extremist.

[annabanana]

43. "imminent revolutionary transformation of society"

with bombs, not words....

THAT is the "far left"

[LWolf]

34. What are you asking?

What constitutes "far left" and "far left extremists" according to those further to the right?

I don't think people or politics are quite that linear or 2-dimensional. The terms "far left" and "far left extremists" are usually labels applied by anyone a little to the right of the person they are labeling. It doesn't matter where the person actually falls on the continuum, whoever is to the right of him considers him "far left."

Here are some of the positions that may be "too far left" for reasonable discussion in American politics:

Non-partisan analysis, evaluation, and action; anyone who doesn't toe the party line may be a "far left extremist."

Non-patriots, who see "patriotism" as a thin, politer veneer for nationalism, and whose idea of human rights and responsibilities crosses borders, may be "far left extremists."

Those whose spiritual path doesn't fall within the judeo-christian tradition may be "far left extremists."

Those who are not corporatist or capitalist may be "far left extremists."

Those who are truly without fear, who truly believe that peace is a way of life, and that war is never the best answer, may be "far left extremists."

Those who don't seek to maintain the power structure of the elite, with the current class divisions, may be "far left extremists."

Those who value the health of the planet, her ecosystems, and non-human lives might be "far left extremists."

Those who stand for social and economic justice for all might be "far left extremists."

It really depends on who you're talking to, doesn't it?

[Catchawave]

37. Where would Animal Rights Activists be on the label machine?

I hope not too far left, most of us are soccer moms by day :)

[Lilith Velkor]

48. Depends on your views concerning economics

IOW if you still believe in capitalism, then no, you are not far left. :hi:

[satireV]

55. Are the soccer balls made of leather?

And if so do you care?

:)


Animal rights Activists who want to force all people to stop eating animals are not right or left, but religious fundamentalists.

[Rocknrule]

38. According to Ann Coulter, anyone to the left of Hitler

[yurbud]

40. she probably thinks Hitler was too far left--they were the national...

SOCIALISTS

[Rocknrule]

49. She's probably upset that he didn't exterminate ALL Jews and gays

since in the mind of a RWer, all Jews are liberals

[Behind the Aegis]

42. The broken clock....

While you may feel the "so-called far left" was more accurate in some cases, it doesn't mean that they aren't fanatics. An inverse example would be Pat Buchanan. He was against the war in Iraq. Should he see him as a paragon of truth? Should his motives and solutions not be called into question, even though, we agree with his stance?

Like the far-right, the far-left is incapable of nuance. They only deal in "black or white" thinking or, more simplistically, "you are either with us or against us."

The problem is not centrists, right-of-center, or left-of-center people, the problem is and will always be extremists, no matter what side they claim. They are the ones who claim it's "my way or the highway!" And, like the conservatives, we are "infected" with those who are absolutists.

[TheBaldyMan]

46. with respect UtAegis that's bollocks

I'm very left wing and I'd like to think that I am still open to persuasion, I'd didn't become an anarchist overnight, it evolved over decades. Call me crazy but I am more committed to the left wing now than ever, mainly because I've never ran into a RW with a good enough argument to convert me. Having said that I would be willing to concede points and alter my views on certain issues, only if the argument for change is strong enough.

Being on the far left you pick up one thng very quickly indeed, there is a very wide spectrum of political feeling and you are a very small slice of the pie. Not a case of you are with us or against us at all. Most anarchist don't proselytise, we just try and do small things and try and make a difference. Direct action no matter how small is the norm rather than the exception.

Yes I am an extremeist but I am most definately not an absolutist.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. Then, IMO, you are the 'exception,' not the 'rule.' n/t

[bpilgrim]

64. "you are either with us or against us." - you said it

and DU has consistently been way ahead of the curve in most of the issues of the day since jump, and 9 times out of 10 the self described 'moderates' here argued against challenging the status-quo emanating from the M$M and continue to this very day, so that clock analogy doesn't work here unless you are applying it to yourself.

peace

[TheBaldyMan]

45. if you have a political viewpoint the same as mine you are far-left

I'm an anarcho-syndicalist. I think that 99% of the posts on this forum are to the right of my political stance.

Usually when a politician denounces someone as being on the 'far-left' it is only done as a personal attack because they don't have another response. It has nothing to do with being centrist, left of centre or leftist. It's a smokescreen.

[MrBenchley]

47. You mean the sort of person who cries "Kerry is a corporowhore"?

I'd say it's melodramatic rhetoric, a childish disconnect from the real world, a burning hatred of Americans and Democrats in particular, and a lynch mob mentality.

[SOS]

65. In 2006 USA

a "left wing extremist" is someone who thinks uninsured children should be able to visit a doctor.

But since the White House and Congress are now owned and operated by transnational corporations, the point is moot.

[bvar22]

67. Speaking of "My way or the Highway" mentality.....

just saying.....

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[MrBenchley]

75. Yeah, our "left wing extremists" have nothing but

and how they howl in rage when they get exposed for what they are....

[High Plains]

51. "Far left" or "left wing extremists"

Anyone more extremely far left than me.

[blindpig]

53. If you want real change in our societyand are not right wing

then you must be a far left wing extremist! If you think change means more than just changing the team in charge, a little spot cleaning and a bit of paperings over then you're an unrealistic dreamer who should retire to your basement and let the adults be in charge.

This is what I've learned in three years at DU.(snicker)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

56. While I'm still not "far left,"

I believe when it comes to American politics a few individuals have proven you can go well past what one might believe is reasonable for discussion and win with their beliefs.

[Puregonzo1188]

57. Radical Left (definition)

Since the early 20th century, Radical Left has been used as an umbrella term to describe those on the political left who adhere explicitly and openly to revolutionary socialism, communism, or anarchism. In this meaning it generally does not include Democratic socialists, Social Democrats, liberals, trade unionists, or those working in electoral politics, since the "radical" qualifier tends in this case to denote nothing less than a revolutionary fervor.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Left

[yurbud]

59. wait, if I belong to a union I'm a radical? Who wrote that def?

[Puregonzo1188]

63. No not at all

In this meaning it generally does not include Democratic socialists, Social Democrats, liberals, trade unionists, or those working in electoral politics, since the "radical" qualifier tends in this case to denote nothing less than a revolutionary fervor.

It from from Wikipedia.

[yurbud]

69. I had a brain fart there

[AbbyR]

58. I always thought I was pretty far left

I support universal, single-payer health care, strong environmental regulations, strong support of education pre-K-college, living wage, etc.

I basically think everyone is entitled to a decent roof over his or her head, good health care (no, I'm not paying for your nose job or your boob job or your Viagra, but real, top-of-the line necessary care), prescription medications at reasonable cost, and an education good enough to get a job that will support a family. People should not be hungry, sick or homeless in a country this wealthy.

I believe in taxing according to the ability to pay and a balanced budget. I believe in a strong national defense but no first-strike and a ban on nuclear weapons. We don't go to war unless we or a close ally are attacked, and we'll think long and hard about the second.

I believe in absolute separation of church and state, voting and election reform.

I think we should ditch the World Trade Agreement and lend our support to the farmers and businesses in our own country.

I think any business that outsources should be taxed double or triple what a business that keeps its base here is taxed.

I don't care who you marry - it's none of my business unless you want to marry me.

I believe in freedom of choice - a woman's body is her own.

How leftist does that sound? Honestly - it just sounds sensible to me.

[Theide]

60. How about Market Socialist Libertarians?

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that the political spectrum is circular. In my estimation, this means that either too far right or too far left both wind up totalitarian.

I believe that no one should fall below a certain basic standard of living, which should include housing, schooling, health care and food. I also believe that if one wishes to try, one should be able to get rich. You can pry my guns from my cold dead fingers. I am an omnivore. If it doesn't eat me first, I will eat it. I grew up killing dinner, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

You are perfectly within your rights to protest my meat eating, my militarism, my right to shoot you if you try to come through my window. I respect your opinion, but woe betide you if you try to force me to live as you think I should, whether you are a religious fanatic or some other variety of nut.

We are supposed to be a free country, and to me that means we are free to do as we please as long as we harm no one.

How is this hard to understand??

[Jack Rabbit]

61. Opposing Bush

Just ask any right wing moron.

[LittleClarkie]

70. It's just a spectrum thing

When I say far left, I don't mean wrong.

But when someone says moderate, I'd appreciate it if they didn't mean apologist.

I'm a moderate (depends on who's lookin' at me, actually. To the local wingnuts, I'm a Communist). But I am not a Bush apologist.

I think people are farther to the left on some issues, and not so much on others.

[Behind the Aegis]

72. In this thread...

...have you found your answer?

[sandnsea]

73. Ideology over progress

People who will not compromise. People who get stuck in their own agenda and catch phrases to the point they can't see the words are getting in the way of the solutions. People who would keep everybody from having better health care because it isn't their brand of single payer. People who can't face the reality that we don't live in a socialist state. Far left extremists. Far left ideologues. Annoying thumb suckers. Whatever.

[benEzra]

74. The degree to which they are willing to use FORCE to impose their views

on those who disagree with them.

We can all get along as long as we are free to live and let live. But there are those who wish to make gays go straight, those who wish to confiscate modern-looking guns, those who wish to make people stop smoking, those who wish to make others read only books they approve of, at gunpoint. That's extremist, regardless of whether your political views are left, right, or centrist.

[riona]

76. i think the whole political spectrum has shifted right

so, what's considered the far left now probably isn't the same as it used to be.

[The Straight Story]

77. The far left /right are parts of a circle which is where the 2 touch

All beliefs/ideologies are on this circle, the top tip is someone in the middle. 90 degrees in either direction is the middle of your political spectrum respectively. From there things start sweeping down the arc of far X into extremists.

The goals of both extremes are, in a broad way, the same - just with different results to some extent.

Power. The extreme left & right both want things done there way and diversity of opinion is shot down as being wrong with no room for discussion - examples would be those who:

Both sides wish to limit freedoms to make their goals of how the world should be become a reality. Both of those groups have a religious zealotry involved, whether they believe in a god or not they worship their ideals as the one true way (from the environment to population control to animals and so on).

See (a couple quick examples that may or may not help)
http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/forcedsterilization.html

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/193420.pdf

[radio4progressives]

78. According Senator Schumer, Feingold represents the "Fringe Left"

So.. that's how the political "spectrum" is being defined by the DLC..

Where ever the DLC goeth, so to their followers, and the MSM.

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[radio4progressives]

79. Today, a Leftist is anyone who Defends the American Constitution

Such as Senator Feingold, according Senator Schumer a so called "Democrat", according to his remarks on the Senate floor this morning.

I suggest that this discussion be taken right to Senator Schumer's office - and he and the rest of his DLC cohorts be confronted and slapped down on their smarmy remarks and their positions - this whole issue needs to be brought out there in the open - I'm freaking pissed off and sick to death of these bastards undermining CORE Constitutional issues and those who seek to fight on behalf of the principles of Constitution. Whether or not we're talking about matters of War and Peace, (the authorization of War) the Immigration Debate, Fascistic legislation like the so called Patriot Act, or Presidential Authority to conduct Domestic Spying (under any name)...

Otherwise this whole discussion is meaningless.

[VOX]

80. Isn't this the sad truth!!! n/t

[ecstatic]

81. open borders, 70% tax rate suggestions, putting chickens & humans in same

category... I know I'm liberal but every now and then I feel out of place on these boards. Honestly, I think anyone with views left of mine is pretty extreme. LOL

[ieoeja]

82. Minimum Wage

Ten years ago on labor issues...

o far left believed we should implement a maximum wage;
o moderate left believed we should support collective bargaining (i.e. unions);
o centrists believed we should raise the minimum wage;
o moderate right believed we should keep the minimum wage;
o far right believed we should abolish the minimum wage;



Today on labor issues...

o far left believes we should support collective bargaining (i.e. unions);
o moderate left believes we should raise the minimum wage;
o centrists believe we should keep the minimum wage;
o moderate right believes we should abolish the minimum wage;
o far right wants to know why liberals are beating this dead horse when we should be finding jobs for nine and ten year old children of welfare recipients.



Ten years from now on labor issues...

o far left will believe we should raise the minimum wage;
o moderate left will believe we should keep the minimum wage;
o centrists will believe we should abolish the minimum wage;
o moderate right will pass the Child Labor Reform and Freedom act;
o far right wants to know why liberals are beating this dead horse when we should be assisting the poor and starving in Africa by providing them with indentured jobs.



Note on that last: this is actually how slavery was initiated in the United States. In New England settlers were provided rent-free property, but had to provide for themselves. In Virginia, the colony gave away 50 acres to each homesteader, but provided an additional incentive to anyone who would sponser those with the desire who lacked the financial means. A settler was awarded an extra 50 acres for every indentured servant they sponsored while the servant in turn would receive 50 acres after his period of indenture. The first Africans brought over were no exception.

Naturally over time the usual suspects setup the rules to ensure they got the choicest land and to screw the servants out of their land (e.g. 1 acre in 50 locations scattered throughout the width and breadth of the colony). Just as naturally, the little guy started raising a ruckus to which the usual suspects responded, "there would be plenty of land if we didn't have to set some aside for all these negroes". Enough little guys bought this bogus argument like a Freeper watching the FOX News Channel that the proposed solution -- "why not let us keep these negroes as slaves instead of freeing them?" -- received acclaim as the best way to help the little man despite the fact that he must then compete against slave labor for his wages.

And the beat goes on....