any historical precedent for nation committing military suicide attack?

[yurbud]

on a much larger nation?

When has a small nation attacked a larger one when there was zero chance of prevailing militarily?

I'm think of the sales job done on Saddam as a threat and now the drumbeat for war with Iran that even many Democratic pols are buying into.

If Iran got a nuke over here through a terrorist group or conventional means, before the mushroom cloud cleared, everything that drew breath in that country would be radioactive dust. Anyone old enough to remember the Cold War should remember MAD, but in this case, it would be OSHOSAD--One Side Hurt, One Side Assured Destruction.

Hitler had some chance of success in Russia, and Japan at least had home court advantage when they attacked us at Pearl Harbor. Both were far closer in size and military might to their adversaries though than either Iraq or Iran are (or were) to us.

Am I missing something here, or did everybody else smoke so much pot they forgot the basic nuclear calculus from less than 20 years ago?

[eallen]

1. In what sense is Hawaii Japan's home court?

Yeah, they're both in the Pacific Ocean. But that's a damn big ocean.

:hippie:

[yurbud]

4. that was pre-emptive to make it harder for us to engage in

the Philippines, Indonesia, Southeast Asia, etc. which are all closer to Japan.

[Sammy Pepys]

2. Maybe Napoleon attacking Russia?...n/t

....

[yurbud]

5. Napoleon had already conquered a big chunk of continental Europe

and France was a world power at the time.

Iran attacking the US would be more like Luxemburg trying to invade Russia

[endarkenment]

8. And Napolean could have won that war.

The OP is correct, there really don't seem to be any real world examples. Nations tend to want to survive.

[dusmcj]

3. you're not signed up with the program

you don't get it, we're spreading apocalyptic Christianity, high teen pregnancy and STD rates among young people who abstain from sex, back-alley abortions and low-paying service jobs to the world. We don't need someone to attack us, we look for all those recalcitrants who aren't Connected and Under Control, and make them follow Natural Law. Or else.

(In reference to the usual suspects, not the recalcitrants) Fuck they mommas. Oh, I forgot, they're busy doing that themselves.

[endarkenment]

6. Forget? Nope.

This is being done deliberately to terrorize the public so that they will accept our own military aggression against smaller nations as we carry out the PNAC plan for world empire and control over the dwindling supplies of cheap oil.

[november3rd]

7. US Civil War

The Confederacy attacked Fort Sumter even though the sout was outnumbered more than 3-1 in military age population.

Plus, in 1860, the entire industrial output of what would become the Confederate states equaled the industrial output of Lowell, Massachussetts.

[endarkenment]

10. They thought that they had military superiority.

In 1860 the importance of industrial output as a factor of military strength was not fully appreciated. I don't think the Confederacy thought it was a smaller nation attacking a much larger one, I think they thought they took the army with them and that they would make short work of the amateurs up north.

[yurbud]

15. Had Robert E. Lee and a lot of money

[Yupster]

22. I don't think the Confederacy

thought they were attacking the USA at all.

They were just trying to leave. They weren't trying to conquer.

[yurbud]

13. 4 years and half a million casualties doesn't sound like a mouse

biting a lion.

They thought the North would figure it was too much trouble and let them go, much like an insurgency.

It was a gamble, but within the realm of possible success.

[MnFats]

9. all we have to do is restore the temple, convert the Jews...

...and presto! It's the rapture!
Dont' need to worry about war!! Cuz god's armies will descend to destroy the gog and magog armies on the plains of Israel.

Get with it! Haven't you read REvelation???

[Yupster]

11. Alexander the Great

attacking the Persian Empire?

Japan attacking the US is a good example.

Germany declaring war on the U?S after Pearl Harbor too since they had no way to hurt us seriously.

Was it the Chaco War where Uruguay declared war on about five countries and lost about half their population?

I don't think the US Civil War is a good example, The confederacy didn't expect a war. They thought they'd be able to just leave or fight one or two defensive battles at the most.

Charles XII of Sweden attacking Russia doesn't look too bright in hindsight.

Some American Indian rebellions look pretty suicidal looking back.

[NoPasaran]

16. Not the Chaco War

You're thinking of the War of the Triple Alliance: Paraguay vs. Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay. The war left Paraguay utterly prostrate; its prewar population of approximately 525,000 was reduced to about 221,000 in 1871, of which only about 28,000 were men.

Chaco War was 1930s Paraguay vs. Bolivia.

[Yupster]

21. thanks

for the help to my memory.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

12. Have you ever heard of Masada...

the ancient fortress and national symbol for Israel?

Masada has a legendary status in Israeli mentality. Here the fight for Israeli and Jewish independence was fought with such a strength and fidelity that the people taking this as their last resort, chose to die rather than surrender to the Romans.

With the fall of Masada in year 73 CE, the state of Israel came to an end for a period of almost 1,900 years.

Masada has an exceptional geographical setting, with independent mountain rising up a couple of hundred yards overlooking most of the Dead Sea.

[yurbud]

14. they didn't attack the Romans, they withstood a siege and commited suicide

Iran attacking us would be more like battalion of Israelis attacking Rome itself.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

17. they started the war against Rome in their homeland

Just like Iran could do now, Jewish people began a revolt in 66 C.E. This revolt led to destruction of the Jewish state, after the Romans began to destroy every stronghold in Israel culminating in Masada where after a lengthy stand-off all the Jews chose suicide over slavery.

[yurbud]

18. that's still different than attacking Rome out of the blue.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. LOL "attacking out of the blue!"

Are you saying Iran lacks provocation? Have you ever heard of the Shaw of Iran we kept in power there for decades?

[yurbud]

20. that's why they resist us and support terrorist groups that jam us up in

the region, but that's not the same as attacking the US mainland and inviting the destruction of their country.

[lwcon]

23. It's happening right here, right now

The War on Christians fundies, who estimate themselves as only 4% of the country, are waging war on us -- and winning.

Okay, they're not a country. At least they didn't used to be.

And suicide isn't the means of the attack, it's the end result.
___

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