FACTS on Taxes SSN and "illegal immigrants"

[underpants]

Wanted. I do not mean this as flamebait I am seriously curious about the following FIVE main questions.

I have been wondering about this for a while

1.Do they get Social Security numbers? If so how?

2.Do they pay taxes - meaning is it withheld from their pay?

3.What percentage ARE paid under the table? If they are do they actually file and pay taxes?

4.Do they collect "welfare" (SSI/TANF)? If so how?

5.Are there taxes repaid to them if they leave? (I heard this one over the weekend)

These questions arise from the post here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=773881&mesg_id=775696

[TechBear_Seattle]

1. Just the facts

1. No. Only citizens may legally obtain social security numbers. People in the US on working visas are given a different type of tax identification number. People who are neither citizens nor have valid working visas would be arrested if they tried to file an application.

2. No. Without valid paperwork, they do not technically exist. When undocumented workers get paid, they are paid in cash or through other means that will not leave a trail for government auditors.

3. It is expected that 100% are paid under the table. For some 20 years, a valid SSN and other documentation has been required by federal law to obtain employment. Without such documentation, you can not be legally employed, so anyone who is employed will be paid under the table, in some means that will be obvious to government auditors.

4. In most cases, no. You can not file a claim for unemployment or social security benefits unless you have a documented history of employment. However, there are many social services that are available without referencing employment history, such as emergency medical care.

5. No. Since they do not pay withholding, there is nothing to get refunded.

[CrispyQ]

3. Another question.

If their child is born in the US, is that child a US citizen? If so, does the 'illegal' status of the parents change?

[TechBear_Seattle]

11. The child is a US citizen as per the 14th Amendment, but...

The illegal status of the parents do not technically change. It is established common law that the infant may not be deported or otherwise denied any of the benefits of citizenship; the parents and any other family members are a different story, however. Policy has varied depending on the administration and the current rules of the INS. Sometimes the parents will be given a provisional status and allowed to stay but that is rare. More commonly, one parent (almost always the mother) is given provisional status while the rest of the family is deported; sometimes the child is ordered to the custody of a legally resident relation or even foster care and both parents are deported.

[400Years]

4. now the reality

1. yes, they use bogus ones or make them up.

2. yes

3. nobody knows

4. no, unless you consider a trip to the emergency room welfare

5. no

[Minnesota Libra]

2. It might be easier to just copy and paste the questions and then..........

......add answers below.


Do they get Social Security numbers? If so how?

Answer: If they are illegal aliens there is usually no way of getting a legitimate SS#. However, many illegal aliens use other people's legitimate SS #'s or they've been known to use fake SS#'s until caught.

Do they pay taxes - meaning is it withheld from their pay?

Answer: IF the illegal alien is paid with a COMPANY CHECK then yes taxes are withheld from their checks. If, as is the case for many, they are paid in personal check or under the table then no taxes are not withheld.

What percentage ARE paid under the table? If they are do they actually file and pay taxes?

If illegal aliens are paid under the table they must file as "contracted employees" or as "self employed" to file taxes and most don't bother because if might bring INS around. These days they don't need worry much about INS though.

Do they collect "welfare" (SSI/TANF)? If so how?

I've seen this first hand. They collect welfare, government food supplements, free school lunches, free medical care, dependent family income payments, and more.

Are there taxes repaid to them if they leave? (I heard this one over the weekend)

Only if they are here legally that I know of. I'm sure thee is a way around this one that I'm just not aware of.

[sinkingfeeling]

6. How do you collect welfare, food supplements, etc. without a SSN or

other official government id?

[400Years]

8. that poster is just talking out of their ass

[Minnesota Libra]

14. "talking our of their ass"?? For well over 20 years I lived in a city....

......where this was done quite regularly. In fact I jokingly questioned the practice a couple of times until people actually showed me a SS# and marriage license in one male's name and this person's birth certificate in another name. The person's drivers license had the person's true picture on it but the same name as the SS#.

I didn't believe it until I saw it done IN MORE THAN ONE INSTANCE. I haven't lived in this particular city all my life.

[Bridget Burke]

20. So--you saw that done in two instances...

In that evil, unnamed city.

[400Years]

23. immigrants contribute more than they take out

[Gormy Cuss]

17. Fake SSNs are common

as are shared SSNs. I worked with credit bureau and social service agency data and incorrect SSNs are common in immigrant communities. They are generally one of three sorts. One, a number is shared among relatives. The number is legitimate for one of the family members and others use it to get jobs or at other times when an SSN is requested.
Two, the number is from a card purchased and it is in the legitimate range of issued numbers but belongs to another person.
Third, the number is so fake that it isn't even in the range of numbers assigned yet.

The only way those using fake SSNs can get back their withholding is to file taxes, and that's usually not done. Same deal with Social Security benefits.
So, for people without legitimate SSNs, they pay into the system without much of a chance of getting the contribution back in the form of a tax refund or retirement benefits.

Fake SSNs are effective at point of service for things such as public health clinic treatment but eventually they are found out.

[underpants]

18. Thanks from what I can tell it is all centered around fake IDs

If they want certain jobs they have to present SOME SORT of Soc.Sec. card. Now let me say that many do have work visas and greencards. Anyway they and the employer probably know that it isn't real. No problem they still need the job and the job is basically theirs to have.

As far as social services this seems to be the case too. Implying that they just show up and go on "welfare" is BS they have to have some sort of ID.

As far as schooling goes and medical care-they do get that basically for free but that actually opens up more issues than it closes.

Thanks for the post.

[Le Taz Hot]

19. No they're not

Having lived in CA for 51 years everything that person said is true. Come with me, my dear, and you can witness it yourself, or would this not be quite PC enough for you?

[400Years]

22. ha ha

me PC? whoa, you must be on crack

[Minnesota Libra]

13. Illegal aliens can use the SS #'s of...............

....of relatives or fake SS cards until they qualify for their own.

[WolverineDG]

9. only to the extent

that those benefits are for US citizens (ie, their kids).

dg

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. A qualifier may be in order.

In a later post you clarify that your response to the question "do they collect welfare?" "They collect welfare, government food supplements, free school lunches, free medical care, dependent family income payments, and more." is only via fraud.

If I'm reading your reply correctly, the better answer to the OP question is "no".

Unless, of course, they're using the fake SS# to obtain work, in which case the answer to "do they pay taxes" is "yes".

[MockSwede]

5. another few questions

They MAY be having the money being withheld by 'employer', BUT is that entity actually SUBMITTING this collection to the US Treasury quarterly or just POCKETING IT?

How do you file 1040 or any other form if you DON'T have SSN or TIN?

[DURHAM D]

12. Employers and employees both use the "fake" numbers.

Employers usually don't know they are fake and sometimes the employees don't know they have a bad SS# and the government does not seem to care - they look the other way because they want the money.

[Inland]

21. There you go.

It's written off as some sort of confusion to be straightened out later, and it never is, because the worker can't make the claim.

[DURHAM D]

7. Regarding paying taxes - Social Security and Medicare

percentages are withheld from their pay. Also State (if any) and Federal Withholding amounts are withheld by employers. The social security and medicare amounts are then matched with monies paid by employers. All of the above (Federal and State WH and social security and medicare dollars from the employers and employees) is deposited in a bank and transferred to the IRS.

If the employees SS number is bogus the IRS does not notify the employer which leads me to believe that the government knows full well that millions of illegal workers are helping fund the government and when these illegal workers retire they will not be able to access SS or Medicare because they do not have legal SS numbers.

In fact, I once asked my Congressman if he knew what percentage of the money flowing into the government that had been collected and paid by employers could not be accessed later (by the workers who had paid it)because of false SS #'s. He had no idea what I was talking about and no amount of explaining could get him on the right page.

[underpants]

15. Don't forget sales tax and property taxes passed on through rents

as pointed out in another thread

:kick:

[ieoeja]

24. You ever get the feeling when talking to politicians ...

... that most of them are NOT the brightest bulbs in the room?

Of course, their primary job qualification is winning a popularity contest. And when you think back to high school, weren't the popular kids the ones who stayed away from the more difficult courses?

On the other hand, we do have all those college journalism majors helping us decide which of the popular people to vote for. And if we can't put our major decisions into the hands of a group of people who spent their college years majoring in how to read and write, then who can we trust?

[thecrow]

10. I saw an article on here sometime last year

that stated that Social Security had about 360 billion surplus
that was contributed by illegal aliens through these bogus or made-up SS numbers.
I bet ** would love to get his hands on that.

[Maine-ah]

16. if that's even true, he's already gotten his hands on it.