MOOOOOOO! This art needs to be deconstructed for the masses.

[Writer]

I do not consider myself a feminist, yet this is the most degrading piece of art I have ever seen. Her crouched, splayed position looks like an animal. And the fact that it's heralding her giving birth in an animal-like position, the statue completely subjugates her as a woman. She might as well have been a cow birthing a calf.

Why not show her laying down holding her baby, happily? Or at least giving birth on her back, as virtually all women do? Why place her on her hands and knees, her neck outstretched in a bray, on a neanderthal rug?

I don't like to criticize art, but how else am I as a young woman supposed to interpret this? When I give birth, how am I supposed to reflect on this and not feel denigrated? Merely a brainless beast bearing a man's seed for humanity?

I know nothing about this sculptor, but if this is his (and I assume it's a man) imagining, may the goddess pity his flatulant, vacuous soul.

ON EDIT: For those of you unfamiliar with this sculpture, it's supposed to be a pro-life message honoring Britney Spears. Yes, it's anatomically correct.

[northofdenali]

1. OMFG -

:puke:

Not that there's anything prettier than a pregnant woman but this is pure exploitation.

[gator_in_Ontario]

2. I find it beautiful

definitely interesting. And I am a lesbian feminist
the "laying down holding her baby happily" thing...now that is true fiction...that only comes after...
I would bet the sculptress has been there.

[Writer]

4. Everyone has their interpretation of art.

But when I see articles like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12100070/ it makes me wonder if we're rebounding to the days when we were second-class citizens.

[intheflow]

8. The sculptor is a man.

So I'm sure he hasn't been there.

[gator_in_Ontario]

11. My bad

I didn't even recognize Brittney. Am I going to gittmo now? :hide:

[intheflow]

24. gator...

in my book, not recognizing Britney gets you major bonus points! :hi:

[China_cat]

14. The artist is a man

who probably wasn't even taught where babies come from until he was 30.

[October]

99. Being a mom....I can say it's not fiction

to hold your baby after birth. It's awesome! Nothing is more empowering, IMHO.

Really, it's not fiction...it's outrageous. :)

[darkmaestro019]

3. I'm sorry, but I don't

understand how the display of female anatomy degrades females unless one feels that female anatomy is inherently shameful. :hide:

That said, I do think it's in bad taste, though beautifully executed. I'm pretty sure I've seen Britney take that posture and others equally, spread, while jiggling her assets in videos, though I'm sure she was wearing the tiniest bit more clothing than that, but not by much. It's a shame an artist with talent like that didn't think it through a little. Perhaps her pregnant, still nude, but in a more classical pose. Though art is meant to provoke a reaction, and this piece is succeeding on that count.

EDIT: I was born with female anatomy. Not to wave the transflag, but I've seen how men treat women and how men talk to other men about women, so please do not attack me for being anti-woman. : )

EDIT AGAIN: I think the WORST thing about this is that they chose BRITNEY of all the vacant, career-by-curves Bushloving worst-role-models-ever to say ANYTHING about the beauty of life and birth and feminity.

[Writer]

5. It's not the anatomy, it's the position.

Like a beast. Woman who give birth are more than just a birth canal. They are whole people. I think this stature underscores the entire fundamentalist movement in our nation: Women submit to your husbands. Women give birth.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

18. this very attitude most clearly shows fundies for what they are...

We all have a choice and what we choose each day defines who we are. My favorite philosopher, Giovanni Pico della Mirandola synthesized Platonism, Stoicism, Judaism, Jewish Mysticism, and host of other ideas into a single system. Above all, Pico personifies the Humanist. Before the birth Pico in 1463 CE, Humanism, which focuses on relationships between humanity and the Divine, became a social force in Italy. In his Oration on the Dignity of Man, Pico states that you have “free choice and dignity, so you may fashion yourself into whatever form you choose. To you is granted power of degrading yourself into lower forms of life, like the beasts, and to you is granted power, contained in your intellect and judgment, to be reborn into higher forms, like the Divine." To Pico, being "born again" takes on new depth and importance. Almost a manifesto for the Renaissance, his speech affirms the importance of a human quest for enlightenment in philosophical terms.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. I don't understand why "giving birth like an animal" is degrading

We are animals, after all.

All this humanist bullshit that would exalt us to some high place is precisely the discourse of theological absolutism. Giving birth is an animal act, and there is no need to intellectualize it, much less draw from it some higher moral operation. The woman holding her baby, smiling, is much more a symptom of gender politics than the woman, in labor, grunting like an animal. hell, that may be one of the few moments in (human) life when the weight of human's separation from animal existence is lifted. And this is a bad thing why? I don't get it.

By the way, my wife gave birth without pain meds two weeks ago. We are both overjoyed to sit there with our baby, smiling, but we don't pretend that it is the same thing as late first stage labor without pain killers. When I say grunting, I mean GRUNTING.

[Writer]

42. And was your wife on all fours, like a cow?

I doubt it. She was likely on a bed, treated respectfully like a sentient human being with a mind of her own, giving birth to a baby.

Women are not animals and should not be portrayed as animals. If it's generic humanity that you think should be portrayed this way, then where's the "animal man" sculpture to accompany this one?

[alcibiades_mystery]

50. Oy gewalt

During late first stage she was indeed on all fours for about 45 minutes, arms resting on the bed and her knees onm the floor. Why? Because it was the best position for dealing with the contractions for her at that point. Sorry to disappoint you. That said, she didn't quite have her back arched in that manner (which is certainly a pornograhic reference), nor was her face so peaceful by that point. When she actually delivered, she was on the bed, but she generally didn't like being on the bed during the labor, since it made the contractions more painful. The doctors insisted that she be on the bed for the last 35 minutes or so.

As for the animal man scuplture, I'd fucking welcome it, that's for sure.

[Writer]

63. So she wasn't on a bear-skinned rug with her butt in the air?

And she made the CHOICE to be on all fours because it was more comfortable? Oh, the animal-ity! So that excuses this sculptor for likening a woman giving birth to a cow sequestered in her pen, in breeding position, squeezing out a baby with absolutely no sign of pain in her face? Even if your wife opted to suspend herself from the ceiling in a harness while juggling cantelopes, she was treated with dignity as a sentient human being. The Britney animal birth does NOT accomplish the same.

[alcibiades_mystery]

64. Some choice!

LOL...the calm deliberate decision of Aristotle in an olive grove, huh? :rofl:

I even agree with you that the sculpture is despicable, but not for the reasons you say. There is nothing wrong with animality, being my only point. The no sign of pain thing? That's another story.

[Writer]

68. At least she wasn't FORCED to the ground like a dog.

Calm or not, it was HER decision. And I am getting disgusted being lectured by a man about what should/should not be proper depictions of femininity. It is one of the great follies of liberal thinking that a white man believes he can speak for minorities and women. There is a great, unseen statement of male dominance in this sculpture. Kevin Federline should be on the ground with her, his hands outstretched, to catch the bud of his "responsible" parenting decision.

[alcibiades_mystery]

70. Ho hum

Guess we should stop having a discussion then.

Who said there's a problem with identity politics? :eyes:

And its precisely the point that she was FORCED to the ground, by her body and its processes.

[Writer]

72. Ho hum.

Your callousness is boring to me. Indeed, we should stop having a discussion.

[bobalu]

54. ...It being so "welcome"..one can only wonder, I guess,

why men have not/ do not develop one?....Perhaps YOU can try and create one?

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. Not too good with the clay

Sorry. And there's plenty of artwork that tests the boundary between human and animal for both "genders." To claim otherwise is ridiculous.

[bobalu]

61. "there's plenty of artwork that tests the boundary between human and

animal...To say otherwise is ridiculous"

..Really?!...I wonder if you can share it with us, and speak as "authoritively" as you've tried to do here?!

[bobalu]

44. This is hillarious..."We" don't pretend??...LOL..You do indeed sound like

YOU are pretending to have given birth!...Sorry, I'll listen to your wife, but not YOU..."Identity politics", my ass!

"By the way, my wife gave birth without pain meds two weeks ago".

"We are both overjoyed to sit there with our baby, smiling, but we don't pretend that it is the same thing as late first stage labor without pain killers".

[alcibiades_mystery]

49. I don't pretend to have given birth

I also don't pretend sitting there with a child is the same as giving birth. WTF are you even talking about?

[bobalu]

52. WTF I'm talking about is YOUR post, parts of which I included in mine,

in which you keep using the word "we" as if your wife and you had the same experience!

[alcibiades_mystery]

55. Your imagination is running wild on you, friend

Nothing in my post implies that my wife and I had the same experience. That's a loopy-assed reading.

[bobalu]

58. ..Loopey-assed writing, Friend...LOOK at your post...You say

WE at least twice...

...Why are you trying to back away from it?

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. I do say "we"

In very specific contexts:

1) We sit there looking at our kid - wow! what a fucking revelation! I also look at my own child, now 13 days oold. You really nailed me there. Obviously, when I say that both my wife and I look at our child, what I'm really saying is that I experienced the same exact thing as she did when she delivered! Isn't that clear as day? Yeah, if you're fucking insane.

2) We don't pretend that doing so is the same as late first stage - Hoooo-weeee, you got me there. Obviously, me saying that smiling at a child isn't the same as the labor that I witnessed means that I think I went through the same thing as she did! Obviously, again, if you're fucking nuts.

Let me clear it up for you. Obviously, as any sane person can tell you, there is nothing in my experience as a man that would match the experience my wife went through during labor and delivery. This is so obvious that it never occurred to me that it needed to be pointed out. And yet, I feel quite qualified to say that the calm alternate work suggested by the OP loses something of the quality of labor, in much the same way that I could say that sitting on a nice beach is different from getting fuycking shot in the chest - even though - huh! - I've NEVER been shot in the chest. See how easy that is?

[bobalu]

66. ..OOHH... so defensive.!

"Let me clear it up for you. Obviously, as any sane person can tell you, there is nothing in my experience as a man that would match the experience my wife went through during labor and delivery. This is so obvious that it never occurred to me that it needed to be pointed out. And yet, I feel quite qualified to say that the calm alternate work suggested by the OP loses something of the quality of labor, in much the same way that I could say that sitting on a nice beach is different from getting fuycking shot in the chest - even though - huh! - I've NEVER been shot in the chest. See how easy that is"?

How 'bout I clear it up for YOU...

I know men can get very defensive when they're cornered into admitting that they're just NOT experts on everything..but I'm afraid your comments went a bit beyond the small point about about the OP's "calm alternative" losing something of the quality of labor...And I think you've been "caught" assuming a little more authority than you're entitled to..and THAT's why you sound so angry now.

Hint: Why not let your wife do the "childbirth" threads?

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. It's a nice game you play

You make up wild meanings for things, then when people look at you like you're nuts, you accuse them of being defensive. Have fun with that.

As for letting my wife do the childbirth threads, I see no reason why I cannot have a perspective on this piece of art, or the larger question I was addressing: that animality is necessarily degrading. It is not. Nor is a representation of the animal aspects of childbirth necessarily degrading. One need not have experienced childbirth to argue for these animal qualities of it. There are also animal qualities in walking down the street, for the plain reason that I stated above: humans are animals, so aspects of their experience will necessarily include animality. This is only controversial for lunatics, purists, and theological ideologues.

Now, I certainly understand why some version of feminist thought would have a problem here. It is of course true that one of the main functions of patriarchy - especially in its Western variety - was to reduce women to the "body," (and all its animality), while elevating men to the life of the mind. It is therefore quite easy for men to say - hey, animality ain't that bad, precisely because they (or at least men of a certain class and race) haven't had to struggle to define themselves as humans for the last three thousand years plus, etc. I get that. So perhaps it is male privilege to argue for the virtue, ahem, of animality, and perhaps it costs feminist thought too much. This is a worthy topic of debate. The rather insipid fall back on experience as the end all and be all of argument, however, is not worthy of debate. It seeks, instead, to halt all communication at the borders of identity...you can't know because. It's gnosticism, and cheap gnosticism at that.

[bobalu]

74. You make up wild meanings for things, then when people look at you like yo

...But AGAIN..You give no EXAMPLES..!

"I get that. So perhaps it is male privilege to argue for the virtue, ahem, of animality, and perhaps it costs feminist thought too much. This is a worthy topic of debate".

...Yes, but when Writer and I have made that point you simply keep coming back with a "never say die" defensiveness that's growing weaker and weaker..So NO, I don't think you DO "get it".


"..The rather insipid fall back on experience as the end all and be all of argument, however, is not worthy of debate. It seeks, instead, to halt all communication at the borders of identity...you can't know because. It's gnosticism, and cheap gnosticism at that".


MY GOD...DO YOU KNOW how PRETENTIOUS you sound?!...I know there's some rationality to throwing around a lot of crap in the hope something will stick...but I really don't think it's working for ya here...You obviously can NOT answer the questions the OP and I have put forward..and let's face, it pal...You're simply out of your element!...Why don't you go find a nice male bonding thread, or something?

..and since you're sounding ever more desperate and making less and less sense...Let me give YOU the honor of having the LAST word, since the last word of SUBSTANCE was said a long time ago!

...Adios!

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. You haven't said a word of substance in this thread

You like to pretend that others are "defensive" and other cheap 3rd grade nonsenses, but you really don't have much to say at all.

[bobalu]

83. ..Don't need to "pretend", a thing, dear...it's here for all to see...

and btw, the only 'cheap' thing here is your pathetic, pseudo-intellectual babble.

..Have a nice day :smoke:

[alcibiades_mystery]

88. More senseless little insults

Please tell us about your birthing stories that make you such an expert? Let's see the substance, shall we?

[intheflow]

6. Yes, the sculptor is male.

I agree there's nothing more beautiful than a pregnant woman, but this man was really only interested in the pop culture craze around Brittney's pregnancy. I saw an interview with him, and that's what he said, "this was the most hyped pregnancy I can remember in my lifetime," so he felt he had to sculpt it. He never asked Britney.

I agree with your assessment, it's a submissive, degrading pose and if I were Britney, I'd sue his ass.

By the way, this same sculptor also sculpted Ted Williams decapitated head. Personally, I think he's a sick mofo.

[Writer]

9. Sounds like the arse needs to stop reading "People" and "Us Weekly"

and pick up some Dickens or something. Whatever he can do to get his mind off the apparent horrors within.

[bananas]

7. Why didn't you give a link to the article?

It's art.

Asked whether he's anti-abortion, Edwards said, "You nailed me. I'm not saying that I am. I wouldn't march with either pro-life or pro-choice advocates. This is not meant to be political."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/28/ap/entertainment/mainD8GKRIPG0.shtml

Spears Sculpture on Display Next Month

NEW YORK, Mar. 28, 2006

(AP) A life-size sculpture of a naked Britney Spears kneeling on a bearskin rug as she gives birth will be on display next month at Brooklyn's Capla Kesting Fine Art gallery.

<snip>

"Everyone is coming at me with anger and venom, but I depicted her as she has depicted herself _ seductively. Suddenly, she's a mom."

<snip>

When Edwards was asked why he creates art that generates publicity by selecting subjects hyped in the media, he said: "You're bombarded with these stories. And there's a thread that winds back to the art. That's not a bad thing. People are interested in these topics, and it works for art as well."

Asked whether he's anti-abortion, Edwards said, "You nailed me. I'm not saying that I am. I wouldn't march with either pro-life or pro-choice advocates. This is not meant to be political."

___

On the Net:

http://www.caplakesting.com


MMVI The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[Writer]

10. I didn't have that link. Thanks!

He won't give his view on abortion. That's understandable, as I don't think it's germaine to this piece. However, a woman giving birth is not a seductive act. Why on a bearskin rug? Why not place a man in sheepskin with a club in his hand standing over her as she writhes in pain?

His intentions seem... somewhat valid, but he apparently possesses little sense about what he's created here. It seems like he's trying to be Andy Warhol with clay.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

26. He was just on Countdown yesterday and made a comment

about pregnancy and it was a pro-life statement. He said something to the effect of pregnancy is not a pro-choice "statement;" it's pro-life (did anyone else see that?).

In my opinion, pro-life is a false term. It's really anti-choice.

I think being pro-choice is all about having the power and taking control of your life in terms of making the decision about when (and if) you want to have a child and not allowing govt. to interfere with that decision.

[bobalu]

12. ...You say you "don't consider youself a feminist"....well displays

like this are one of the reasons women become feminists...I too find this very degrading...and this was HIS interpretation...If there was a birth video, he claims he didn't see it and never met Ms. Spears.

[izzie]

13. Every one has their own thoughts on art.

Usually they like to see what is most normal to what they have been around so any thing out of place bugs on them. You just have to sort of sit back and say what was the artist saying or some thing like that.No one thinks you have to like it.

[whosinpower]

15. Childbirth eh?

Well - obviously the artist has it ALL wrong.....the face isn't contorted in spasms of gutwrenching, backbending, spine crunching contractions.

Would you of prefered that reality? Because - you see....many women....including myself would of prefered to give birth in this attitude - not laying down on your back. You will understand when you get there. I begged them. Newsflash for you - women giving birth on their back is for the doctor's benefit - not the mother.

But - hey that's ok. You didn't know. I don't find the art denigrating. Think of it this way - giving birth is one of the most horrific difficult painful things a woman has to go through. But the reward is the most beautiful heartgripping baby. His/her beauty takes the breath of the mother away and she literally forgets about all the pain she just went through as her body tore itself to give life. The act isn't pretty - the reward is.

Personally - I do not really care for this piece but not for the reasons you see. Just my opinion.

[bobalu]

20. I have been there...and I didn't want to crouch like a dog...regardless

of what the doctor's wanted.

To each his own, I guess.

[robcon]

16. This is fourth-rate art

that the artist was able to turn into instant aweareness because he borrowed Spears' celebrity.

[cosmik debris]

17. I remember when

We were told that it is offensive to put a crucifix in urine or to make an image of the virgin Mary out of elephant dung.

I am glad I live in a society where art doesn't have to be pleasing or agreeable to everyone.

[Deb]

19. The artist screams a need to create

an anus and vagina. Why elevate the pelvis in that way? To me he's implying women are secondary to those bodily functions. I have some knotty pine he'd probably love to work with.

[TheBaldyMan]

21. women can give birth an any position they find comfortable

you don't have to be flat on your back with your feet in stirrups in order to give birth.

Personally I think that they should have shown the sculpture from all angles and let us see the crowning of Sean's head.

I think it is remarkable that all the people who say that they are pro-life get freaked out by a process by which we all came into the world.

It's symptomatic of people who are disgusted by the human body, especially those aspects that are involved in sex.

[0007]

23. Very well said!

[bobalu]

25. ..Nobody is suggesting they can't...but if you look at most of

the WOMEN's posts here (and I imagine most are pro-choice) they don't feel comfortable with this sculpture...and as a male, I'm not sure are in the position to be lecturing females on how they should feel about their bodies.

[TheBaldyMan]

27. most of the newborns in my family are BIG (ouch!)

I have nothing but sympathy for women in labour. I am making an observation, not dictating to anyone. This isn't about being anti- or pro-choice, it's about a sculpture that is looked on as INDECENT because it's a woman giving birth. If that isn't fucked up I don't know what is. That statue does have an anatomically correct business-end but that doesn't make it obscene.

[bobalu]

31. If you will read the post(s) of the OP, you will see that what she

..and some others (self included) find degrading is the POSITION...not the "birthing". I've seen a LOT of "public" labor" and "birth" scenes ...never saw one in this animalistic postion...Sorry...I'm a female, but, as a "display" at least, I find it degrading.

By the way, the sculptor put the woman in that position because he found it "seductive"...just what I'm SURE a woman in labor is thinking of :sarcasm:

As to the other male poster who says it reminds him of "how much we're all like animals" It may, but probably only in the abstract. Unlike we women, he doesn't have to hear himself referred to as "bitch".

[TheBaldyMan]

35. I never said the sculpture wasn't degrading,

I am reserving judgement on its artistic merit or lack of it. What I was trying to do, was draw attention to the prurient camera angles. IMO this was done to avoid offending people who have problems with sexuality in general.

If I gave the impression that I think it's defensible to degrade women I am sorry, nothing was farther from my intent.

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. Ay yay6 yay

Identity politics at its worst. men can't speak about this piece of art, women can't speak about the Iwo Jima statue, ad infititum, until we are fragemented beyond measure, and everybody is simply who he or she is, finito. Garbage.

[bobalu]

48. ..No one said they can't "speak about this piece of art"...but they can't

speak about a woman's experience of childbirth or tell them how they "should" or "shouldn't" feel about the depiction of something only they experience.

As for the Iwo Jima example....We have women being killed in Iraq and Afghnistan now, so I'm afraid that no longer holds.

[alcibiades_mystery]

53. Oh right

That's what was happening...:eyes:

[bobalu]

56. Oh gee, Mystery...Then speak again...What really WAS

happening:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. It seems to me that

what was really happening was mainly you making up a lot of shit out of your weirdo worldview?

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Flat on your back is actually bad

Since it forces the fetus to work against gravity to get through the cervix.

[TheBaldyMan]

47. I don't know about it, I'm a man and I'm not a midwife

but from what some women have told me an alternative position can be a lot more comfortable.

on edit: congratulations on the new arrival, I hope everything is going OK.

[msanthrope]

22. April Fools Joke---Gotta Be. n/t

[skids]

30. Nope.

Heard about it on NPR a week ago. It's on exhibit in Brooklyn, apparently.

[blondeatlast]

28. Did you see the artist on Countdown last night?

The man is clearly not among the reality-based community.

He also did this lovely piece of Ted Williams' death mask--

[Radical Activist]

29. Personally, child birth reminds me

of how much we have in common with animals. Humans give birth pretty much the same way as any other mammal species. I've heard people talk about how special it is and how its a gift from God. Maybe I'll feel that way too if I ever have children, but right now it only reminds me of how animal-like we all are.

[laundry_queen]

36. I agree. Well, I've had 3.

And if anything, it reinforced everything about how animal like we are. When you are in labor - all your animal instincts come out. The part that is miraculous to me wasn't the labor, but the baby, afterwards.
As for the position being degrading. Well, that particular position is good for getting the baby in a proper position. It's also good for relieving the pain of back labor. It's a common position women, unmedicated and free to chose, to get into. Degrading is a woman flat on her back with legs in stirrups, scrubed with betadine all over because 'she might be dirty down there'.

[bobalu]

43. I would argue that "all your animal instincts" come out during sex, too

..and maybe in combat.

..As for the back position and betadine...Is she any less "dirty down there" on all fours?...

[laundry_queen]

85. Not sure what you're getting at.

I don't think a woman is 'dirty down there' but it sounds like you do???!!

I think we are wonderfully animalistic and that THAT is what should make us more aware of the animals we share the planet with. Nothing is wrong with it, I don't get why you are fighting it?

[alcibiades_mystery]

89. Because women are

called "bitches," apparently. Therefore, to fight misogyny, women should not only deny their own animality, but should insult and make up wild stories about anyone who mentions it. Because women are called bitches, and this poster has seen a LOT of scenes of birth on TV wherein women give birth in a bed. Because animality is necessarily bad, and because there have never been any men depicted as animals (despite half the mythology and folk art of the world, the totemic tradition, and every metamorphosis story from Apuleius, to Stoker, to Kafka - of course, bringing up such things would also be "pretentious" and "pseudo-intellectual," not to mention "defensive.").

Nice, huh?

[bobalu]

91. "I don't think a woman is 'dirty down there' but it sounds like you do"?!

No..In fact, YOU are the one who brought that up.

My point was that that your "dirty" comment was UNRELATED to the birth position, which is what was beomg discussed.

If you want to understand this thread, please check ALL the posts, including the OP's.

Adios.

[Maine-ah]

95. wow, I think you need to go back and re-read that post.

[laundry_queen]

103. Well I've read every post in this thread.

Although I'm beginning to wonder if you've read any of the posts you've responded to.

[bobalu]

45. ..and most women "free to choose"...choose to be medicated.

[alcibiades_mystery]

73. No question there

Not sure anyone's claiming otherwise.

[bobalu]

76. ...Your not sure because you haven't read all of the the posts...I have.

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. What's amusing

Is that your hard-line against animality now has you arguing on behalf of the medicalized ways of childbirth against the positions developed by women in labor themselves! Your incoherence knows no bounds. You're the kind of feminist that wants to smash the statue, but thinks women should always give birth in a bed because it makes the whole thing more human? :rofl:

Let's cut to the chase: when you gave birth, did you opt for epidural, c-section, natural childbirth? If you did go for natural childbirth, what positions did you find least painful during the worst of the contractions?

[laundry_queen]

84. a lot of women who chose to be medicated

Chose it because it is expected of them, and because they are not free to chose a position. And/or because they are not aware of the risks.
Not saying women shouldn't get it if they want it, heck, I'd chose it if I had another baby, just that it's often a mis or uninformed choice.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. Thank you

Someone had to say it.

[bobalu]

46. ...Answer post #42...."Where's the animal MAN sculpture" to

go along with it?.

It's easy to try and project the "wisdom" of embracing your "animal nature"...when it's not YOU who's being DISPLAYED like this, or being subjected to dehumanizing male slurs like "Bitch".

..Try it on from THAT perspective.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. Oh, the perspective

os second wave feminism circa 1972?

My God, my whole world is illuminated! :eyes:

[bobalu]

60. ....No, I'm SURE the world would have to wait for some

MAN who doesn't know horseshit about the experience of Childbirth to be so "illuminated"

...There IS something to the old adage of "writing about what you know"...Now if you want to expound on the grace or gracelessness of pissing against a wall...I'm listening!

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. We should all be more dehumanized

:shrug:

[bobalu]

67. ...AGAIN....Easy for you to say....ah, the glory of male hubris!

...and WHY, now, isn't your WIFE speaking on this instead of you?...

[alcibiades_mystery]

71. My wife doesn't post on DU

Too many nutsos, she says.

But she likes Pandagon. Maybe you'll catch up with her there.

[bobalu]

75. ...Are you sure she's not talking about YOU?!.....LOL

[alcibiades_mystery]

77. Oh, quite

The mania she describes is quite apparenmt in this thread, however.

[rocktivity]

32. DU-er Plaid Adder explains the Britney sculpture for you

My initial reaction was laughter because you don't give birth on all fours with your hips elevated. And I laughed even harder when I read about how "Britney Spears is the ideal model for Pro-Life" and "A superstar at Britney's young age having a child is rare in today's celebrity culture...This dedication honors...the rarity of her choice and bravery." Plaid Adder did the rest:

I am convinced that the whole thing is calculated and that the sculpture is ironic...

...(Britney) had an elective C-section because she didn't want to go through labor...

That sculpture...represents a fantasy, and I don't think it's the artist's fantasy either. It's meant to represent the pro-life vision of the female body...(The combination of) the porno pose with the emerging baby's head freaks people the hell out (which) is precisely the point.

...(T)he artist is forcing the pro-life PR machine to either embrace this horrible thing and look like people who need serious professional help, or reject it and look like hypocrites...

In other words, it's not art, it's satire--what the people at the The Onion would create if they used clay instead of words. As for the artist, he's an undercover pro-choice genius.

:headbang:
rocknation

[mzmolly]

87. Great analysis. I was thinking along those lines. NOW I adore the work.

;)

[alfredo]

33. Loving or hating a work means nothing. If it causes a reaction

it is successful. I don't like the work. His skill is apparent, but That doesn't mean I like what he did.

I haven't read anything on the artist, so i don't know his feelings (interpretation) on the work. They are unimportant. What each one of us see and feel is what is important.

Your anger and disgust is appropriate. You can never tell, that might be what he wanted, but as I have pointed out his interpretation is unimportant.

[Kablooie]

34. It's a nice expression of the pro-life's view of childbirth.

A conservative American pop star pumping out her unwanted child like a sausage machine.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

37. you did know that it is Britney Spears right?

[McCamy Taylor]

80. It's a nice work of art. Good lines. Very fluid. Nice use of imagery.

I see nothing degrading about to women, unless you think that pregant female anatomy is degrading.

The "right to life" title is a gentle jab at the "right to life" movement which celebrates the fetus but stigmatizes the young pregnant woman as a slut/whore who had better deliver because God wants her to suffer for the sin of having sex. Right to lifers are gonna have fits at her posture and the presence of the bear skin rug.

[bobalu]

81. ...Hate to tell ya, but a few "non" right-to-lifers dislike this as well

...I don't think the OP fits your description. You're entitled to your opinion, but you ARE coming in a little late on the thread.

[bobalu]

82. ...And as to the idea that those who object "think pregnant female

anatomy is degrading"...Like I said.. You're late on the thread...That was addressed in one of the first few posts.

[McCamy Taylor]

92. Is this ART CRITICISM or THREAD CRITICISM?

It started as a critique of a work of art, but it has evolved into a thread which critiques itself.

Re: ART. I made my posts referring to the art object itself, with only a few references to the other posters' opinions, since I generally form my own opinion about art. My opinion of the piece stands. It is well executed. I like art to include recognizable symbols (as opposed to the completely abstract) so it gets points for that. It combines symbols which juxtapose disturbing (dead bear) with beautiful (pregnant woman celebrating her sexuality--and hey, that is exactly how I felt when I was pregnant, it brings back great memories). It is the space between the juxtaposition of opposing symbols that art does its work--or rather the viewer does his or her work or interpreting the piece and creating meaning. Calling it Britney Spears introduces a kind of pop shock to symbols and a medium that are otherwise classic, which creates yet another juxtaposition space where more meaning can be created. And of course, the dead bear and the pregnant woman's posture mean different things to different people, so the meanings are wildly different, even within the psyche of one individual. A piece like this invites you to play around with interpretation to your heart's content---or dismiss it and move on to the next piece in the gallery. This is a free country, and this work is so new that it has not been enshrouded with a "masterpiece" label requiring that we worship it.

Re: the THREAD, we at DU do thread criticism all the time, and I am not really that interested in another argument in which American matriarchs tell American men that the men are not allowed to comment on sacrosanct women's issues because they can not possibly understand what it is like to be a woman. This is such a joke. Artists go beyond the boundaries of their race, socioeconomic statues, health, country of origin, planet of origin, species---why the hell cant they go beyond the boundaries of their gender? Women artists write from a male point of view all the time. If artists can do it and the world does not end, then I, a female DU poster, will graciously allow male DU posters the right to do it.

But you know what? Male DU posters do not need my or anybody else's permission to do so. Anybody at DU who thinks that experience limits the imagination should sit down and spend some time reading William Blake.

End of sermon.

[Writer]

93. I used to hold the same opinion you hold.

Back when I was in college. But I've grown up and faced reality since then.

Men DO NOT understand women's lives. Just the same that I, as a white individual, DO NOT understand the plight of American minorities.

There are two aspects about this statue that women immediately notice: 1) Her painless face, and 2) Her crouched, animalistic position. Given that the sculptor is male and decided to craft this depiction of Britney Spears as an ideal image of giving birth, he left out these two very real experiences that ALL women who have given birth would immediately recall. Men don't understand this. Until men can squeeze a baby through the tip of his penis men never will truly understand the full breadth of pregnancy and giving birth. It is a very personal experience that supercedes the physical.

If you wish to argue to a woman that this is the way we should be portrayed, I wonder if you see the power statement in that? You (MAN) are telling me (WOMAN) that this is an acceptable way that I (WOMAN) should be portrayed. How disgusting! Do you support equality, I wonder?

This art, and the discussion the argument creates, is about power. They are virtually one in the same. Personally I'd prefer to speak truth to power, and this statue feels like we're receding back to days of coat hangers and submission.

[mzmolly]

86. "Pro-life" yet gratuitously kneeling on a dead animal. Kind of ironic.

No? Yet the pro-life movement is hypocritical/ironic so perhaps that's the message?

I find the sculpture ridiculous. Women don't generally grasp the head of a dead bear when they are about to deliver a child. Others have pointed out that having her ass hoisted in the air with a fresh/neutral expression on her face, is also not part of birthing reality.

[newspeak]

90. Art is in the eye of the beholder

I'm a woman and I don't particularly care for this piece of art. That's just me. A more natural birthing position is not this one or flat on your back--but in a crouched position on both feet. In earlier times, they had birthing stools-that were built low so that the woman was in a more crouched position. The bear rug gives me the creeps.

[Ilsa]

94. I thought she was turning the baby, trying to get the head down

from a breech position.

He face doesn't reflect any pain of childbirth.

[sendero]

96. Are you suggesting..

... that Ms. Spears didn't have input, or for that matter pretty much dictate this piece, since she probably posed for it???

[Writer]

97. Ohhhh I don't think Britney had much say in this piece.

Honestly it really doesn't look like her - in the face, at least. If you read in some of the posts above, the sculptor likes to construct art from pop culture. For example, the severed head of Ted Williams.

[sendero]

98. Well..

...... that shut my argument down in a hurry :)

I dunno, I can't decide how I feel about this sculpture. I'm not very good with visual arts anyway. I can see your point, kinda, but I think that there might be more than one valid interpretation of what the artist was trying to say.

[Writer]

100. Certainly. Art is subjective.

Although what the sculptor claimed about his piece sums up his intentions (pro-life statement). Where is Kevin Federline, anyway? Why didn't the sculptor place him behind Britney, slapping her ass while she "painlessly" giving birth.

[sendero]

101. I think the sculptor..

... was about 9 months late for that :)

[kestrel91316]

102. As art I actually find it interesting and even

beautiful in a way. And she is NOT "braying". She is gazing at the bear's head.