Like elected officials, I will not take a position on ILLEGAL ALIENS but..

[Jeffersons Ghost]

In a debate where no solution is fair to everyone, our humble opinions matter very little. I do, however, have strong opinions when individuals like Frist decide we must redefine the term "amnesty."

According to the dictionary by Merriam-Webster amnesty means: the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals.

Like the president, Frist keeps claiming amnesty consists of placing illegal immigrants in line ahead of people who have chosen to obey U.S. immigration laws but no reasonable source mentions that act as criteria for amnesty. According to accepted definitions, amnesty simply means a large group of people gain forgiveness or a pardon for an illegal act.

Essentially, every plan I've reviewed, indeed pardons all illegal immigrants in our country, thus granting them amnesty, even if they must start at the end of the migratory line. Do immigrants who break our laws traditionally gain citizenship? Am I missing something here?

[Joanne98]

1. Frist trying to get "amnesty" passed without looking like he did it.

The conservative base will see right thru this. If he helps Bush he throws his own 2008 plans in the trash. People of either party who are against Bush's plan will NEVER forgive opening up the borders. Twenty years from now they will still be pissed off. I know because I'm still pissed over the last time this happened.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

3. I agree Joanne and your words bring up another puzzling aspect

As Frist, Bush and countless others continue to assure Americans that their diligent actions provide national security, one might wonder how their policies that left borders unprotected for over six years make America safer... In other words, what took them so long to notice our borders were wide open and our port authorities only inspect about 10% of the cargo that enters the U.S?

[Joanne98]

10. It's not puzzling if you think they've never been concerned

with national security in the first place. Of course I'm a MIHOP so I'm wearing a very cynical tin foil hat. If you believe that 9/11 was the best thing that ever happened to Bush you see things differently. Besides the Bushies are "One Worlders". One world under corporate fascist rule. It's the ultimate plan. Globalization is step one, open borders is step two. This is why Wall Street and the US Chamber of Commerce is supporting the Amnesty Bill! It's a set up. This is the last generation to be born in freedom. The goal is slavery on a global scale. Unless of course "Murkins" wake up, which is highly unlikely.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

12. Hang on Joanne, your hat needs a small adjustment

Perhaps if we fold in back a bit, we can direct it toward the phrase, "NEW WORLD ORDER."

Historically, the words "New World Order" refers to a period of history when dramatic changes in world political thought altered the balance of power.

An early usage of the phrase surrounds Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points, which call for a League of Nations, following the devastation of World War I. Both Bush presidents apparently promote, as you suggest, some type of future enslavment for everyone that is not filthy rich. Currently, a chasm is rapidly forming between the classes, as the middle class falls through the rift. Like many other words and phrase, New World Order will take on a dramatic new meaning in modern political approaches.

To ruling Republicans, the phrase seems to describe a future two class system, where the ultra-rich will lord over a gigantic lower class, like nobility did during dark years, preceding the Italian Renaissance.

[Joanne98]

16. I fully agree! I'm using the NWO phrase to get the attention....

Of the stupid freeper voters who think giving the rich another tax cut is going to help them. The faster they figure out they been duped the better. I see this as ending up in a global class warfare battle. We can win but we need everybody's light bulbs to go off.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. Let me get this straight...

If an ALIEN breaks the law, does that make them an "Illegal Alien?

[sendero]

17. Bingo..

... I agree with you 100%. The reason Bush didn't care about Dubai owning our ports, and doesn't care if 5 million people walk across the border is simple. There never was a serious "al-quaida" threat.

[saltpoint]

2. The immigration issue aside, one powerful thread running through

Bill Frist's posturing for the presidency is a demonstrable mean-spiritedness. He is an over-privileged and intellectually unchallenged man.

"Amnesty," a noun, converted almost overnight to a moral perjorative. And this from the party of Lincoln!? And Frist in the front row cheering the crowd on.

Bill Frist, THE CAT BUTCHER, is a vacuous automaton. I hope he is never anywhere near the GOP nomination.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

4. it's unfair to call him a "cat butcher" unless he likes dissecting cats

Look at this fine leader. Is this the face of a "cat butcher?"

[saltpoint]

5. Now THERE'S a poster image for the Frist 08 campaign! -- n/t

[Jeffersons Ghost]

6. I did a few other images last week. Sunday is a good day to review

[saltpoint]

7. Gore as dragon slayer really works for me. Excellent. -- n/t

[Jeffersons Ghost]

8. yeah, i was tempted to put a couple of small devil horns on Bill

I even feel that many Americans, like me, love his devilish bad-boy side more than they are willing to admit in church.

[saltpoint]

9. If only he would own up to it instead of pandering to the nutcase Right.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

11. A future FIRST MAN or is it FIRST GENTLEMAN must cater to nuts

When nut-cases make up a majority of the voters, doesn't he need to pander to them a bit? As we seek truth and clear definitions, can we afford to ignore the term "nut-case?" To many, I'm certain my personal views come across as nutty as a fruitcake. It all becomes relative at some point and depends on personal perspectives. One persons hero is a nut-case to another individual.

[AtomicKitten]

13. It would be healthy for Republicans to acknowledge their beloved Reagan

facilitated amnesty in 1986, and then move backwards from there.

One issue: Having lived in San Diego for years a while back, it is insanity to not grant driver's licenses so the "illegals" can get car insurance. It's Russian Roulette driving down there.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

18. Raygun sought the same NEW WORLD ORDER bushie is advancing

Raygun resembles bushie because he not only gave similar tax breaks to the idle rich but also sought to drive down the value of an honest day's work.

[Igel]

14. It's because he's relying on something called

'conversational implicature'. He's not so much redefining the term as assuming that listeners will take it as a relevant and non-vacuous statement, and infer what's necessary to make it a relevant statement.

To grant amnesty and nothing else merely resets the clock for the length of time people illegally in this country have been breaking the law. Since they're not lawbreakers so much by virtue of an act (i.e., crossing the border) as by virtue of their state (here without permission), it won't alter things except for a vanishingly small amount of time. Unless, of course, something is done to regularize their residency--the "you have x hours to get out of Dodge" option isn't going to happen.

Think of 'amnesty' as not being redefined to include anything else, but as logically or pragmatically entailing a set of legal steps in order to not be meaningless. What's necessary need not always be said to be understood. What's necessary--ruling out the "you have x number of hours to get out of Dodge" option--is something that grants those here illegally some a change of status, from illegal to legal. Otherwise they receive amnesty and immediately renew their lawbreaker status.

Many countries have a waiting list of people to immigrate. Regularizing current illegal immigrants' status de facto puts those people ahead of those waiting in their home countries for permission to immigrate; if it's not true for Mexico, it's because so many just immigrate without permission, not because Mexico has probably the largest immigration quota of any country, but I suspect there are gobs of family members that want to be "reunited", obligatorily on this side of the border. Now, the immigration quotas may be augmented by the number of illegal immigrants applying under the amnesty+regularization program, so nobody need wait any longer that they otherwise would. Or illegal immigrants may be 'charged' to those countries' immigration quotas, extending the wait for those currently on the list (my preferred option, but unlikely to be implemented). But in any event it means that people currently here by virtue of breaking US immigration law acquire residency (be it guest worker or green-card/naturalization track) ahead of those that signed up and have been waiting.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

15. Thank you for such an in-depth study igil

Your articulate post shows an impressive grasp of the issues, while hinting that your profession gives you a broader perspective than the average citizen but you write too well to be a lawyer.

Garden variety propaganda students, like me, can't afford to toss around phrases like 'conversational implicature' or we'll lose our readers.

While I am usually willing to learn a new trick and broaden my approaches, I still like the old stand-bys like drawing horns or fangs on images of the King. Perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned but I think snickering peasants passing around POPE JOAN pictures works as well as these new-fangled propaganda campaigns.

If I get the job of creating a slogan for the next Democratic contender for president, he will say "If I become your next president I will bring a KINDER GENTLER FORM OF PROPAGANDA TO AMERICA." Imagine that! Just let the guy or gal go ahead and tell America what they already know in the beginning for once! Admit, up front, that you plan on pulling the wool over their eyes for at least four years and maybe eight. People would love it!

We need someone like Bill who tells really funny jokes back in the White House: We're tired of watching this horror show run by cartoon like characters that deliver lame humor. It's like watching re-runs of Tales from the Crypt, as Bush repeatedly hammers at us with idiotic slogans. i bet he makes them up himself and thinks they are brilliant. It's insulting to America. Certainly for propaganda to work it must be repeated perpetually but it would be less of an affront if he used better material. He can say things like "democracies don't war" as much as he likes and never make a silk purse from his pig-eared slogan.

[Bridget Burke]

20. Illegal Aliens? Pardon: ILLEGAL ALIENS....

Outside certain circles, the phrase has fallen out of fashion. However, this science fiction book seems interesting.



I think you are missing a lot!