Is there a disconnect with moderate dems on impeachment?

[CarlSheeler4U]

This Sunday's Providence Journal had a feature piece called the "I" Word. It is clearly forefront, but it seems to clearly suggest the Democratic Leadership believes attacking Bush due to the poor prosecution of the Iraq War and the need for his Impeachment would galvanize GOP supporters.

I believe that other than GOP neocons their leadership is distancing itself from Bush and the War and Impeachment are the exact areas they need to be pounded upon.

If we can't withdraw from Iraq, then there are no legitimate promises the Democratic Party can make to working and middle class families until well after 2008 and that is three years too many.

I think this weak maneuver will be seen by many Democrats as the same lack of opposition and leadership we expect from elected officials. It might leave many Dem and Independent progressives feeling it's not worthwhile to go to the polls if it's more of the same.

Thoughts?

Carl
Sheeler for US Senate
www.carlsheeler.com

[Joey Liberal]

1. I'm sick of the weak Democrats

Why do we always let Bush and the republicans off the hook? Why can't we, as a party, ever stand united? We need to quit worrying about the GOP and go for the jugular. I'm with you on this Carl.

[Jack Rabbit]

2. In a word, yes

They may be wise to wait until the polls indicate that support for impeachment rises to 60% among all voters. However, this does at least create the illusion that Democratic Congresscritters are disconnected from rank-and-file Democratic voters, 70% of whom favor Feingold's censure resolution, if not impeachment.

There is an open and shut case for war crimes or crimes against humanity against Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and Gonzales. The first four willfully lied to start what they knew was an unnecessary war of aggression against a sovereign state; Mr. Gonzales, in collaboration with Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, devised plans to violate the Geneva Convention and the Convention against Torture, to both of which the US is a party.

Now we'll start talking about willful violations of civil liberties and corruption surrounding no-bod contracts for Halliburton.

Censure is far too mild a remedy for the threat to democratic institutions that this regime poses. Impeaching Bush by itself will be a remedy. We need a regime change, now.

[AndyA]

6. The polls are at 53% favoring impeachment. Not far to go,

but 53% is a majority. (This was from Zogby.)

The hypocrisy is overwhelming. Clinton got caught, he did something he shouldn't have done, but nobody really got hurt (except for Hillary, perhaps), and look at what happened.

Now compare that to what George Bush has done. Yet NOTHING is happening. The double standard should be very evident to every American, regardless of party. This is not the American way.

[Jack Rabbit]

7. It is beyond question that it was silly to impeach Clinton over a blow job

It is also silly not to impeach Bush and Cheney for lying in order to get us into a war, for abuse of power, for willful violation of treaties and international humanitarian law and war profiteering.

The Republicans see the numbers and are starting ads to nip the impeachment movement in the bud. It may be ready to flower.

I think we can do this thing by next year.

[sendero]

22. The Republicans need to be taught..

... a lesson. That lesson is "be prepared to live under the climate you create".

The Clinton impeachment was a complete travesty, and the American public saw is as one. I'm conflicted on this current meme that promoting impeachment would energize the base. The base is always energized. The 30% idiot-contingent will be out in force NO MATTER WHAT.

[CarlSheeler4U]

26. Agreed. If the DEM's showed fortitude then they eappeal to the

independents and dem moderates who swing with what they perceive as strength

[TheBaldyMan]

34. Bill was impeached because he committed perjury.

Bush point blank refuses to say ANYTHING under oath, I wonder why?

Even without this his cohorts are ending up in jail, one by one.

The only disconnect that moderates have is not with impeachment, it's a disconnection from reality.

[CarlSheeler4U]

39. I think it is a psychology of denial not wanting to believe anyone

tehy either allowed to enter into a second term by not voting or not helping can screw up this country so badly.

[wyldwolf]

21. a few thoughts

They may be wise to wait until the polls indicate that support for impeachment rises to 60% among all voters.

Yes. Look at recent history. Clinton had his highest approval numbers after his impeachment.

Democratic Congresscritters are disconnected from rank-and-file Democratic voters, 70% of whom favor Feingold's censure resolution, if not impeachment.

No. Currently, only 60% approve, with 30% not approving and 10% on the fence. We have to sway that 10%, IMO, and that isn't going to be hard considering the Bushies' recent performance.

[CarlSheeler4U]

27. We're forgetting the fundamentals. Use what the GOP knows

what works. There's still an awful lot of people who think there's 9/11 tis to Iraq. If the elected and candidates made their case and went that way, the public would follow. Since they seem so unwilling (Feingold - censure), why would the public care? They think what's the point, they had no spine on Iraq....

[NanceGreggs]

3. I've seen it right here in discussion threads ...

"If the Democrats can't stand up to Bush and his Administration, how will voters ever see them as strong enough to protect the country?"

This administration has plunged the country into debt, have consistently put the interests of Big Business above the well-being of everyday citizens, have waged war based on lies, and have broken the law without remorse or any sense of accountability.

Pointing out their wrongdoing shouldn't be a matter of partisan politics; it should be a matter of saving the country from further ruin. And the Democrats will have hard-working citizens at their backs if they STAND UP AND SAY 'THIS HAS TO STOP!'

At this juncture, IMHO, if the Democrats don't have the spine to take back a country that is literally being handed to them by a faltering administration, it is not the Democrats who stand to lose - it is the entire country.

[jwirr]

4. I believe that Dems who are holding back know that with

the congress we have now controlled by repugs that impeachment is not possible. The repugs will never do it. I suggest that all doubters wait till we have congress we can hope to control before they make these kind of judgments. Also even then I for one do not want to go from *ss to crash cart or Hasert. The problem with impeachment NOW is that the choices for succession are not better. However I do want to keep the censure/impeachment pressure up because it does the one thing that is truly needed at this point: it keeps the treasonous actions of this administration in the limelight.

[radio4progressives]

8. Impeachment proceedings beginning in 2007/2008 is sort of too late..

but.. there's no statute of limitations on impeachment - i suppose we'll just have to wait until after 2009 or 2013..or even later...

[jwirr]

9. How about 2006?

[Jack Rabbit]

15. Too many GOP Congresscritters would acquit Bush

. . . if he shot their mothers before them and laughed.

Besides, we are talking about not merely impeachment, but regime change. Cheney has to go too and to make sure that we begin the task of undoing the damage the junta has done, I prefer to wait until 2007 when Bush, bereft of a so-called Vice President, will then be succeeded by President Pelosi rather than President Hastert.

[CarlSheeler4U]

28. Of course all would go. Their all guilty as sin. So what if they acquit.

The stench would stay on the party and anyone trying to defend that filth who currently sits in elected office. This is part of the grader strategy.

[ClassWarrior]

35. It's never too late to do the right thing.

NGU.

[CarlSheeler4U]

40. Amen. Sometimes a concept lost on some... and for the life of me

I do not un derstand why. Do you?

[Minnesota Libra]

5. Stained dresses deserves impeachment - violating the Constitution don't nt

[Kenergy]

17. I like your sig line n/t

[CarlSheeler4U]

29. Thanks. Yours too.

[paulk]

10. If six years of GW Bush doesn't get "Dem and independent

progressives" to the polls, then they'll get what they deserve.

More elected Republicans.


If that's not motivation enough, what is?

[MasonJar]

11. We cannot get an impeachment through the Pug Congress. We

must kick them out first. Let's do it.

[Jai4WKC08]

12. Moderate Dems in Congress...

Tend to come from red or reddish districts. It is much harder for them to openly support impeachment at this point in time.

Give 'em a chance. If we take back the House this year, our more liberal reps will be able to complete full investigations and lay the case for impeachment out before the American people. When the facts are more widely known and the voters come to understand the crimes Bush is guilty of (and they are ripe to be convinced), the moderate Dems will be more than happy to support impeachment.

[AtomicKitten]

13. I think it has more to do with the US being at war.

There is this unspoken rule about that, which I have no doubt is part of the appeal to BushCo in taking the US to war. It has given them the springboard to expand executive power. But there are the old-timers who are probably operating under protocol as we have known it; unfortunately never before in our history has an administration so taken advantage of that very protocol and in the end it is protecting them. I think the moderates would definitely consider impeachment once we are out of Iraq. But that may indeed be a Catch-22. The Republicans weaseled out of Iran Contra ultimately ending in pardons for the criminals. However, if any administration deserved impeachment, it is this one.

[CarlSheeler4U]

14. We must do what is right for the country and show leadership

and not partisanship. That means call it what it is so the public regains its confidence in its elected officials.

[AtomicKitten]

16. Unfortunately the Dems don't have the power (numbers)

for the proper remedy which indeed is impeachment. The best they can do is wrestle the reigns of power and THEN put in place proper oversight and investigative efforts that I have no doubt will end in impeachment and likely jail time for the criminals.

[CarlSheeler4U]

19. I'm not sure I agree with the strategy

Why would Dems who are disenfrachised with their elected officials for lacking opposition going to reelect them plus keep in mind independents?

[AtomicKitten]

20. they have no choice without the numbers

If people don't understand that, they won't be inclined to vote for them anyway.

That is something voters will have to decide.

[CarlSheeler4U]

25. I think it's as meaningful whether the GOP keeps it from

occuring or not. They have to explain to the center and independent moderates why they're defending the swine of a prez'.

[AtomicKitten]

33. They are NOT defending Junior

Christ, some of the scorched earth rhetoric here at DU makes conversations with my cat more attractive.

You need to understand that the Democrats have ZERO power in Congress to do anything and not confuse that with validating Junior's demented running of the country.

[CarlSheeler4U]

38. Their power remains the public opinion and perception

[dolstein]

18. I think the disconnect is between impeachment supporters and reality

The Democrats don't have the votes to impeach Bush, and I see no evidence that running on a pro-impeachment platform will propel the Democrats to majority status again.

Frankly, I think the left-wing obsession with impeachment is symptomatic of its general distrust of democratic processors. The left-wing has spend so much time litigating policy through the courts that they've grown dismissive of, if not outright contemtuous of, the political processes. Gore may have been robbed in 2000, but Bush won a both a popular and an electoral majority in 2004. We had our shot at beating Bush, but we blew it by nominating someone who reinforced all the perceived weaknesses of the Democratic Party.

[Telly Savalas]

23. The left-wing litigates policy through the courts?

Kerry reinforced the perceived weaknesses of the Democratic Party?

Is that you Mr. Hannity?

[CarlSheeler4U]

31. One thing we can all agree. Dem's need to stop acting like girlie men.

[sampsonblk]

24. Now is the time

Bush has broken the law repeatedly, and lied to the public repeatedly. You are making a political calculation. The same could have been made during Nixon's time. Fortunately, Dems were more courageous back then.

The current political environment should not affect whether our party pursues impeachment or not. To follow your line of thought, IMO, is to perpetuate the "perceived weaknesses of the Democratic Party." Its time to go for it. The guy's a crook and a criminal.

[CarlSheeler4U]

32. 100% on the money. Fortitude builds cred' and votes!

[CarlSheeler4U]

30. Some truths. I believe that handled correctly the public perception

is already way ahead of the weak elected who watch. This already holds true for handling of Iraq.

[TheBaldyMan]

36. don't blame the victims, blame the perpetrators of the crime.

Bush stole two elections, he has presided over a protracted spell of war profiteering, corruption and outright criminality. Impeachment proceedings are needed as soon as possible. If there isn't one single republican who is willing to put the country before party let them show where they stand now. Consider another stolen election and republican controlled house. Can't happen ?

[CarlSheeler4U]

41. To some extent apathy allows victimhood. Compalcency too.

Of course attack the source, but it does not happen in a vacuum.

[TheBaldyMan]

43. Apathy in congress & the media yes. Here at DU no.

[CarlSheeler4U]

44. Agreed

[ClassWarrior]

37. Have you read EarlG's take on this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2517089&mesg_id=2517089

NGU.

[CarlSheeler4U]

42. Well said. How many among us have done something to tip this issue in '06

[opihimoimoi]

45. In weakening the DEM Party, you do yourself no good...for

what happens if the Dem Party remains in the minority Level...that the Pubs keep the majority/Power? Your vote would have less power.

Your DEM PARTY needs all the COLLECTIVE POWER it can get to effect Solutions needed for a TURNAROUND...

By reffering to DEMS as "Weak and Spineless, etc" you are helping the Republicans retain their power....

I should hope you refrain from making fellow Dems seem WEAK in order to strengthen your Odds come November...

What are your IDEAS to STRENGTHEN the DEM Party?

[opihimoimoi]

46. Where are your answers to the Question? What are you doing to help

Strengthen the Dems odds for a win this year and 08?

Think for the Demoicratic Party and you are thinking for yourself....thats a key for you to use...

[radio4progressives]

47. Yes. Schumer Strategy Lead Boycott on Feingold Censure Hearing and

any dicussion of Impeachment or "Bush Bashing" is forbidden.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2549842