impeachment? yeah, OK ...

[welshTerrier2]

there's a great quote by Medgar Evers: "You can kill a man but you can't kill an idea." and there's another that's been attributed to both Abbie Hoffman and Fred Hampton: "You can kill a revolutionary but you can't kill the revolution."

Both of these quotes make me somewhat hesitant about pushing for impeachment ...

I hate bush and I hate what he's done to this country (and to other countries) ... those that pull his strings are the embodiment of greed and evil ...

But we are too often blinded by our hatred to see that the battle against the evil bush represents is encapsulated in ideas rather than just in men ...

bush has sold our democracy to greedy shareholders who have financed his every move ... he has spent America's blood and treasure on corporate wars in Iraq and Afghanistan ... he has bankrupted our treasury to rebate taxes to the wealthy ... he has trashed our environment for fun and profit ... and perhaps worst of all, he has embittered America's soul ...

these are the IDEAS that need to be impeached!! and we have done poorly on that score ... we chastise bush for his bad tactics in Iraq and we chastise him for the lies he told that led the nation to war - but we don't make the case to the American people about his MOTIVES ... we chastise bush for his remarkable failures in New Orleans during a major crisis but we fail to make the case about poverty and racism that is rampant in all he failed to do there ... we see him weakening the country's security with wasteful defense spending but limit far too narrowly our criticisms to his failure to properly outfit the troops in Iraq ...

in the end, yeah, i would strongly support impeachment because bush is absolutely guilty of a parade of crimes and this should not even be a choice we make ... but let's not lose sight of the real battle ... it's far more important to make the case against fascism and neo-con, corporate exploitation than it is to wipe out bush for reasons that don't get at his underlying ideology ... impeach bush is the "feel good" thing to do; winning the battle of ideas is what will sustain us for generations long after bush is gone ...

[dchill]

1. Excellent point!

"this should not even be a choice we make ..."

It isn't a choice, it's a requirement.

[cpousnret]

2. rats vs. thugs

the worst thing rats could do would be to push for impeachment even though it may be warranted.what the rats need to do is stifle the corruption legislation brought on by the thugs,bring the troops home,cut off the kings money,appropriate none for war,etc./etc.etc.peace

[welshTerrier2]

3. well said!!

welcome to DU, cpousnret ...

i was very encouraged by Kerry's recent statements about "immediate withdrawal" after May 15 if the Iraqis don't form a real government by then ... let's hope others get behind his call and let's hope this means Democrats will stop appropriating more funds to continue the war ...

just because Democrats may not have the votes doesn't mean they shouldn't engage the battles ...

[cpousnret]

4. the rats need to prepare

if they propose stupid legislation after taking control of either house it will impede their progress in 08,so sensible legislation needs to be a means to gain further control of the govt.they need to get rid of smokescreen legislation,gays,marriage,religion,all these are personal issues,people need to deal with these on their own.abortion is also a personal issue between a women her doctor and whomever she chooses to assist her,otherwisebutt out.

[newyawker99]

17. Hi cspousnret!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[beyurslf]

5. Bush should be impeached and removed from office. We need history

to record that Congress and America finally woke up to his lies and crimes. It won't fix the problem since Cheney will take over. But history will at least have that part right. 150 years from now, when 10th graders read about Clinton being impeached over a blow job, it will be one paragraph long. The next will say, "And President Bush was impeached and removed from office for serious crimes against the country."

[cpousnret]

6. i agree

but i want neo-cons gone,as well as the evigelicals,speak your mind but don`t hijack the country and force everyone to believe as they do.

[beyurslf]

9. I agree with that one too. They go hand in hand I think .

Removing Bush will expose how corrupt the Admin is.

[BIgJohn83]

7. Impeachment should be the first of many steps...

Get rid of the politicians who are facilitating this explosion of corporate greed... Oil Companies had record profits last year, along with record increases at the pumps? Health Insurance costs are continuing to rise...premiums are up, co-pays increase as well, and the insurance companies can make it impossible for you to afford insurance if they view you as too much of a risk. They don't seem to be in any financial straights... no downsizing at United Health Care or Aetna! Big companies are raping Americans left and right, and they are doing this right under the noses of the very folks we elect to represent us. Neither the Constitution nor the Declaration Of Independence states anything pertaining to looking out for big business. Both documents focus on the individuals rights and the government's responsibility to those individuals. I seriously think we have a case of Taxation without Representation going on here...when is the last time that one of your elected officials acted in YOUR best interest? Need a quick Passport? an appointment to the Military academy? A flag flown over the capitol? No Problem... need them to do something about the high cost of prescription drugs? Well stand in line behind the pharmaceutical Lobbyists...Geez, caught me in a bad mood...thanks for letting me rant.

[Kashka-Kat]

8. I dont quite understand what youre saying- impeachment is simply

holding wrong doers accountable and following thru w/ letter of the law, as provided for in our system of government. It does not preclude fighting the "real battle," as you put it ... and in fact may serve to get us moving back in that direction. I don't think anyone's suggesting the work would be over just by getting rid of Bush-- I hope not anyway! After all, some of the signers on to the PNAC were/are democrats...

[radio4progressives]

10. OMFG Excellent! Well Said welshTerrior! Excellent!

:applause::applause::applause:

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Elnendil Taramon]

11. Not just impeached..

He should be tried on counts of destroying laws. Bush was our symbol of what America is, and Bush looks like a baboon dancing on America. He's destroyed privacy, lied under oath, killed thousands for an idea that is only pushed because he dosen't want to look like a coward (Oh, he is such a coward, remember him dodging that one woman? (Sorry, I am so bad with names =/)), and has trashed the other parts of the Branches, pushing the Excecutive Branch above the others. He didn't tell America of the attacks he knew of, he didn't say the levee's were going to break when he HAD that information. He is not only the worst President, but a disgrace.

The saddest thing is that people go on and on about how Bill Clinton was such a horrible man, he lied and got himself a blowjob. Like one comedian said "I bet theres men here who would want oral sex ON national television!". And right now the Republicans are licking Bush's wounds, and saying "Dont hurt the boy!". He is the president, he shouldn't be comforted because of the dumb and horrible thing's he's done.

Trust me, if a normal man did these exact things, they would fry his ass.

[AtomicKitten]

12. More insidious is the culture that allows these IDEAS to be mainstream.

[welshTerrier2]

15. exactly ...

i posted a thread of great quotes earlier today ... this one, which speaks directly to your point, just killed me:

"Osama bin Laden and George Bush are both terrorists. They are both building international networks that perpetrate terror and devastate people's life. Bush, with the Pentagon, the WTO, the IMF, and the World Bank. Bin Laden with Al Qaeda. The difference is that nobody elected bin Laden." - Arundhati Roy

[AtomicKitten]

16. there is counter-culture where you least expect it

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=1809777

In this week's episode, Kyle accused Cartman of using fear to get people to give up their civil liberties.

[theobscure]

13. The Democratic Party powers-that-be have too much in common..

with the Republican Party powers-that-be to make the case at that essential level. They don't want to make any case that goes below the surface issues. Yes, they want the power upper hand; but not at the expense of the status quo.


edited for clarity

[Sinti]

14. Kicked for truth n/t

[pnwmom]

18. Suppose we do impeach and even convict Bush. Then what?

Cheney is our new president? Or suppose we manage to push both of them out, but before we do, Cheney has resigned and McCain has been put in his place.

Then we've just given McCain a leg-up into 2008.

Maybe it would be better to keep a paralyzed and wounded Bush/Cheney around while we investigate them endlessly.

[Donna Zen]

19. What's the end game?

When doing any planning one must plan for the "end game." Impeachment is the appropriate remedy to bush's crimes, but you are correct in assessing its value as limited. My support for impeachment doesn't negate the reality that without real change we would accomplish little other than our duty as citizens. But change? That is also our duty, and that is much more difficult. If the choice comes down to change or impeachment, which would you chose? I chose change because we can ruin bush's historic record at a later date, and change lasts much longer. Remember: Nixon ended up a valued statesmen by some.

Impeachment is a possible but difficult step, but it is not the end game.

Currently, bush is being tried in the court of public opinion and the jury isn't buying his case. How low are his poll numbers? How much clout does he have compared to what he thinks he has? He is weak, and if not for the republican (and feckless) Democrats in congress, his balls would be hanging in the Smithsonian. Thus, I believe that congress 06 needs all the pressure we can apply. Would impeachment make that effort more difficult? I think so. And what would an impeachment do to get us out of Iraq?

Now I feel slightly clear-headed, a state in which I'll stay until I read another article about bombing fucking Iran. Then I want the bastards gone immediately if not sooner.

[radfringe]

20. if you have a GOPer for senator/representative

and they are saying "vote for me because I won't censure/impeach"

ask them why they are ducking their congressional responsibilites and "won't hold the president accountable"?