Ya Know, For a Dem board, there sure are a lot of Xenophobes Posting...

[radio4progressives]

an amazing amount of racist sewage here..

I thought all of the racists Dixie Crats bailed decades ago to join the Ronald Reagan Republicans... what's going on? are they all coming back now that their party has betrayed them?

Do Ronald Reagan Dixie Crats think today's Democratic Party is about to coddle racism and xenophobia now? What the hell is going on here?

Since when did Rank and File abandon Socio-Justice and equality for all people? Since when are Rank and File honoring draconian laws that are on the books that should be abolished? "Tolerance" was never intended to be about "tolerating" hate and bigotry.

How much longer are rank and file Dems and DU members going to put up with this crap?

[benburch]

1. Amen.

I am arguing with several Bushbots in disguise in another thread right now.

I wonder if they can goose-step?

[radio4progressives]

31. It's sickening and it's extremely disturbing...

Sometimes it appears that DU has just been infiltrated by a platoon of bush bots - and then I'll see an addy that I recognize that's been around for a few years weighing in just like the bush bots.

Then I think maybe it's the age, maybe there's a bunch of really young people who didn't have the best history teachers, and then I realize that the state of our educational institutions have been severely desimated since the Reagan years - and now it makes me wonder, what has been redacted from their History Text Books? Then I remember that Dick Cheney's whife Lynn Cheney has been sitting on one of the advisory boards that oversee what information is included in our text books and what information is left out, and what is REVISED. I haven't researched the specifics, but i recall a recent talk she gave on the very subject of the need to revise our History books, in order to remove information that may not paint our history in the best light.

That stunned me... but how long has she been at this?

But how many students today know that Adolph Hitler essentially began his political career placing the cause of Germany's economic depression, on "immigrants" - Jews and Gypsies and other groups.. The fomenting of this biggoted rhetoric (closely resembles what is being repeated today) whipped up fury and frenzy and hatred - it was convenient to blame the Jews on their economic woes, even though there was not a shred of truth in it (the Great Depression impacted all of Western Countries) but it served Hitler's purpose, and his agenda - which was the agenda of the great white ayran race.

That's what I'm seeing now again. I just never dreamt i'd see it promulgated on a Democratic discussion board.

[rockymountaindem]

2. Where? Where's the racism?

I haven't seen any posts here stating "I'm against immigration because people from Latin America are inherently inferior to white people due to their genes/heritage".

[benburch]

5. That is the subtext in it all.

They see Mexicans as a nation of cockroaches that want to invade our kitchens.

[madeline_con]

12. What would your thoughts be if the "guest workers" were

Canadian? We hate the French or the British? Don't want mayo on our fries? :shrug:

[benburch]

16. I doubt they would be reacted to in the same way.

Hence the charge of racism.

[madeline_con]

56. Which seems to indicate

that the only thing supporting this charge of racism is the fact that the people being discussed aren't all lily white.

Maybe it's not about what color someone is.

[benburch]

72. I think it is totally about skin color.

Nice thing about being a xenophobe on DU - You have no huge dry-cleaning bills to keep those sheets so white. But these people are just the same as the Klan, even if they flatter themselves by thinking otherwise.

[radio4progressives]

77. Exactly Ben... Where was all the Outrage over the Irish Just 10 Yrs ago?

Who were WORKING HERE ILLEGALLY??????

Not a freaking peap did I hear from ANYONE, ANYWHERE about all the Irish that were suddenly here working under the table, in Restaurants mainly in the heavily populated Irish communities in New York City, Boston, Seattle, Portland, Chicago and San Francisco and other cities..

I think since Ireland's economy took on a upswing in the past five years, that's probably lightened up a bit, but in the 90's we were being "invaded" by the Irish! (living and working here illegally)

not a fvcking peap from any sector of the community... not Washington and not the Media .. not a word.

But this with Latina/o's have been for decades - Former Klansman David Duke led the militia crusade on the borders in the early 80's..

Just repetitive cycle. and it's the same issue for decades.. what's changed?

[madeline_con]

95. There are a lot of reasons some people don't support

throwing open the gates to illegal immigrants (for lack of the latest, cutting edge PC term).

It is unimaginative and presumptuous of those who support the move to think it's about their color.

[MercutioATC]

102. Thank you.

Some people here are, perhaps, a little too quick to shriek "Racist!"

[benburch]

164. Good, then you have no problem with open borders? nt

[radio4progressives]

137. "for lack of the latest, cutting edge PC term"

talk about transmitting right wing code.. I read ya loud and clear.

[THUNDER HANDS]

18. they put mayo on french fries?

really?

eww!!!

[benburch]

23. Yep!

And they drink warm beer.

[NativeTexan]

66. No WE don't. And some of us are just pointing out that there are...

...different cultural issues on the subject in different parts of the country.

I don't want to see immigrant families divided up due to some being illegal and others not. There has to be a compassionate way to do it, if at all.

I DO believe that Republicans see illegal immigrants as cheap labor, and some Dems see them as cheap votes.

All I would ask is that if they are allowed to stay, that they learn English, if they don't already...stop waiving around a Mexican Flag as if it is an appropriate item for protesting in this country (remember, the Stars & Bars of the Confederacy is not appropriate either and I am a Son of the South).....pay their taxes and Social Security like the rest of us....AND that employers have to pay them a living wage, or at least as much of one as they pay the rest of us.

[BigYawn]

160. Just got back from Mexico yesterday....

Was in Acapulco, Peurto Vallarta & Cabo San Lucas..
Saw plenty of cockroaches in hotels & bed bugs too!!

But people seem friendly, many spoke broken English.
Weather was high 70's and 80's.
Booze & food was cheap but golf was EXPENSIVE! I guess
water is in short supply.

[radio4progressives]

6. You think it has to be cloaked in that manner?

If you think that, you have know idea of what it really means then.

[rockymountaindem]

27. That seems to me to be the definition of racism

Anything else is xenophobia or some degree of nationalism.

[napi21]

3. What in the world are you talking about? n/t

[benburch]

8. Look at the comments to my "Open Borders" essay in my journal. nt

[MadMaddie]

15. Ummm..yea...what napi21 said...What are you talking about?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. I have a real problem with Aliens.

They're small, grey and they can't wait to use them damn anal probes. ;-)

[radio4progressives]

10. !

[GrumpyGreg]

7. I haven't been around long but I have never seen "racist sewage"

on DU.

[nsd]

24. Me neither. /nt

[mzmolly]

35. Neither have I, but I've seen people toss around the bullshit label

when they can't argue on the merits.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

44. I've been called a racist, and THAT was not tolerated.

If you have a beef with the board, take it up with the admins.

I've not seen the racism you speak of, I've seen people wrongly accused of being racist, however.

I suggest that not everyone who disagrees with YOU on immigration is a racist/xenophobe. Perhaps that's what you don't get?

[radio4progressives]

53. Yeah, that's what Lou Dobbs keeps saying...

while he froths at the mouth disparaging "those people" ... speaking spanish, "those people" waving their flags indicating ethnic pride" blah blah blah blah

[mzmolly]

146. Lou Dobbs?

Cmon.

Should I be frightened of being equated to "Lou Dobbs" ? :scared:

:eyes: Jeez this place is getting nutty.

[demosincebirth]

60. Exactly.

re: "I suggest that not everyone who disagrees with YOU on immigration is a racist/xenophobe. Perhaps that's what you don't get?

Very true. Just like some of the RWers... you don't agree with them and they brand you "un-American."

[saltpoint]

9. I have always liked butterscotch pie above all other kinds of pies.

And I say so because my readings of the overwhelming percentage of these boards has been sweet, not bitter; inclusive and not racist or xenophobic.

[gulfcoastliberal]

11. Devils Advocate

What other countries allow unnaturalized aliens to drop a baby in their country and automatically naturalize the offspring? Then there's the population problem: only India and China have higher population densities than the USA. Finally, you consider Canada, Mexico, Australia, Great Britain, Australia and many other nations to be "xenophobic" because they don't accommodate illegal/unnaturalized aliens unless they legally apply and pass a stringent qualification test.

[Telly Savalas]

19. According to Wikipedia, the U.S. ranks 143rd in population density

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

[gulfcoastliberal]

36. Error on my part: we're third in total population

US World's 3rd Most Populous Nation
Developed nations to face shrinking workforces in the future

Thanks to a 13 percent population increase during the 1990s, the United States remained the third most populous nation in the world, according to a Feb. 2002 report from the U.S. Census Bureau.

The Census 2000 report, The United States in International Context <.pdf document>, shows the United States, with a population of 281 million in 2000, ranking third behind China's 1.3 billion and India's 1 billion. The total world population in 2000 was estimated at 6.1 billion.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa020802a.htm

[benburch]

20. We allow that because we are BETTER than those other places.

Do not nail shut the Golden Door.

[mike_c]

26. what are you talking about? America has a low population density....

eom

[radio4progressives]

43. I don't understand why Other Countries are even Brought up as Comparisons

Whatever policies of China, Canada or even Mexico isn't the issue.

We have a Constitution with a Preamble, though not perfect, as it should have said "All Men and Women are Created Equal"... but the spirit and the intention of the piece is one of the most Nobel Writings that supposedly binds us as a nation.

The Preamble of the Constitution just about says it all with the exception of the Bill of Rights... the Preamble is the CONTEXT of this entire "immigration debate" discussion.. or it should be first and formost and above all else.

But it's completely and wholly absent from the reactionarism expressed in the media and right here on DU.

[madeline_con]

97. Believing all PEOPLE are created equal does not mean...

they can all live here.

[mike_c]

106. pehaps you should think about what the framers of the DOI meant...

...by the term "inalienable."

[benburch]

161. Of course not! Just those of us who are MORE equal than the others.

Right?

http://images.art.com.nyud.net:8090/images/-/Teachers-Discovery/Animal-Farm--C10283035.jpeg

[montana500]

125. immigration isn't a race problem, but a population problem

The lower 48 can only maintain it's quality of life as long as there is no over population. High levels of immigration are the chief reasons for the population gains.

[radio4progressives]

143. That's an interesting point...Many were thinking about Over Population

in the 60's ... in fact it was a major concern, and "some say" had something to do with why Gloria Steineim had that infamous meeting with the CIA, because Over Population was looked at with grave concern in the Latin and South American communities, and so "some say" - Feminists were charged with the "mission" to educate Women in Central and South America on the economic benefits of Family Planning, and encouraging the use of contraceptives.. and about that time, along with the resusitation of the Women's Liberation movement, and the convergence of pro-choice vis a vis Roe vs Wade and so on, all sort of worked to help slow down over population..

which is also an important Environmental issue.. it is said that mass immigration is harmful to the Environment, and i believe that is the case.

All these concerns are in fact critical issues.. they require massive education, and controls. But HUMANE controls, not the Sensebrenner type of legislation or using the Lou Dobbs rabid type of rhetoric. "those people" are "breaking the law" blah blah blah..

Keep the blame game out of this - and work to educate, work to keep the focus on what is in fact going on - (Business who are exploiting workers etc) ...

but please please please please don't repeat and spin the issue as manufactured by the right wing racists and xenophobes!

[BigYawn]

163. Japan, Holland, Denmark, Britain etc have a MUCH higher pop density

than USA and all have a very decent standard of living.

[bluestateguy]

13. Are you referring to the immigration debate?

I oppose the "guest worker" bill because it will drive down wages for all workers and create a large class of non-unionized workers with no rights. Nobody benefits from that. We should also crackdown on employers who exploit immigrant labor. I would be more open to the guest worker bill if we raised the minimum wage, repealed Taft-Hartley and had universal health care for all American workers. But as long as we don't, this guest worker bill will be a setback to those goals.

I oppose laws that would deny social services to illegal immigrants or make it a criminal penalty for crossing the border. That's just stupid and mean-spirited.

But even liberal democracies have immigration and citizenship rules that they insist upon people following. The US should be no different.

[mike_c]

21. me too-- that's why I support a full amnesty program with citizenship...

...for illegal immigrants who are contributing to the economic well-being of America. And when people ask whether our tax dollars should help provide social services for illegal immigrants, I remind them that the economic contributions of immigrants far outweigh the costs of social services-- Americans are too quick to accept the benefits immigrants offer, but too miserly about giving some back to families in need.

[MercutioATC]

65. THAT'LL teach 'em to respect the law...

:eyes:

[mike_c]

69. if we really want immigrants to integrate into our society, including...

...respecting our laws enough to live by them, we have to make them a part of that society, i.e. make them beneficiaries of those laws. As long as they are marginalized they have no reason whatsoever to buy into "the law"-- they're not part of the social compact the law serves.

[MercutioATC]

74. For chrissakes, they're ILLEGAL immigrants!

They shouldn't be here in the first place. I don't want to make them part of our society, I want them sent away.

What does it say to the millions of people who think about illegally entering the U.S.? "Well, you shouldn't do that but if you do, we'll just offer you amnesty." How does this encourage people to respect our laws? What does it say to LEGAL immigrants who took the time and effort to become U.S. residents (and/or citizens)?

Why is it that so many here fail to recognize that these people have ALREADY broken laws? Is amnesty REALLY an equitable consequence for the decision to illegally enter the country?

[mike_c]

79. it's my country too, and my laws too, and I don't begrudge anyone...

...struggling to feed their families an opportunity to work in America. I don't care if they're illegal. I piss on any law that denies anyone the right to seek a better life because they are the wrong color, or the wrong ethnicity, or were born on the wrong side of the border. The Constitution notes that human rights are INALIENABLE rights. Borders do not matter when it comes to human rights, and I believe that the right to a decent living is a fundamental human right. It isn't reserved for Americans, not even in America, not if our fundamental principles mean anything.

[MercutioATC]

86. Nobody's denying them that.

We're just asking that they abide by the legal process that gets them here.

Tens of millions of immigrants have done it. There's no prohibition...just a process.

[mike_c]

100. that is so disgustingly elitist....

You would expect people to languish in poverty and starvation to protect the sanctity of your precious law and order while their families suffered and the "process" consigned them to decades of delay? Poor brown people don't get visas like professionals do. They get put on a waiting list that only a small proportion ever get off of. What do you think the annual quota for unskilled or low skilled legal immigrants is? Hint: it's not 11 million. So everyone left behind by the "process" is supposed to just accept their suffering so that your laws remain unsullied? That's utterly disgusting.

[MercutioATC]

107. No, it's realistic.

How many unskilled laborers do you figure the U.S. can absorb before the American poor are harmed? (hint: we're past that number already)

It has nothing to do with the law itself, but the reasoning behind the law.

[madeline_con]

101. We annex the rest of the world tomorrow.

Then everyone will be American. No more problems!

[radio4progressives]

145. Every time we invade and occupy a country we bring in Refugees

by the boat loads... From Korea, to Viet Nam to Haiti, to Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvdore, Phillipines and let's not forget the slaves from African Continents to China and Iraq during the Gulf War.. and more.

We'll being seeing refugees with every war we caused, we have just about every major ethnic group in the world here, and through our own doing..

[radio4progressives]

80. Thanks for making my point in the OP...

[MercutioATC]

87. Yeah, I'm a "racist" because I want people to follow the law...

:eyes:

[radio4progressives]

99. Apparently this issue concerns you above and beyond anything else

it is so important that undocumented workers are crimalized (let's make sure we get that order in from Haliburton on those detention centers, eh?)


Just how are you planning on processing the arrests, convictions and sentencing of these 11/12 million people?

We're going to need to free up quite a few cargo trains - I think Haliburton makes Cargo Containers too - let's just round them - get em on these trains to a detention center - we're going to need a whole lot of vigil antes - militias - I'm sure we have enough brown shirts that will volunteer for the job - there's a bunch of them playing militia men up and down the border..

so no prob, right?

[MercutioATC]

Not at all...I find the fact that we're arguing about it ridiculous.

What convictions and sentencing? If they're here illegally, I don't see the need to process them through the legal system. We're not jailing them, just putting them back behind the line and asking them to with their turn.


You're the one suggesting inhumane treatment, not me. Passenger trains and buses would do just fine...

[radio4progressives]

117. "Criminals" by Definition have to be processed to the Criminal Court

Unless you want to handle this like we do detainees at Guantanimo Bay?

Otherwise, we have to do what the Law provides for Criminals like Sensenbrenner's bill promises and what all these protests are responding to!!!!!


What in the hell do you think all of these demonstrations are about?

[MercutioATC]

129. I'd be satisfied with simply deporting them.

As I said, I don't see the logic behind jailing them, so making them felons serves no purpose.

[radio4progressives]

148. It was the Criminalization (making them Felons) that spurred the demos

in the first place... but then they're cause became more and more comphrensive in response to the amplification of the right wing noise machine over this issue... maybe there's a silver lining in all of this with the exposure of all the ugly warts revealed right out in the open. Maybe we can cool down the rhetoric and finally deal with the issue with some sanity and humanity in tact.

[radio4progressives]

82. "Respect the Law" Repsect the Law Respect the Law Respect the Law....

Respect the Law in a land where the Law doesn't even Respect the People?

[MercutioATC]

96. Try to stay on topic here...

There are immigration laws. Tens of millions of people have followed them and gained legal entry into the U.S. Some people make the decision to NOT take the time and effort to abide by those laws and enter the country illegally.

Why, exactly, are we saying that this is O.K.?

[LittleClarkie]

150. After all, if all is chaos, and the law is lawlessness

What's to stop me from driving 100 miles an hour down the street, toking a bottle of Yukon Jack as I go. Will the cop be understanding if I say "Gee, officer, why the obsession with law and order."

[radio4progressives]

49. I think I agree with your position on the Guest Worker policy...

On the face of it and based just those issues you raise here, but I do know that seasonal agricultural workers are based on a guest worker program..

That of course will put produce on a price level that will be totally out of range of affordability for the poor and the working class.

But that might force people to return to growing our own food and gardens.. it will force more people to become vegetarians by default (lack of affordability to purchase packaged meat)... Over all, that would be a healthier lifestyle for everyone that can grow their own gardens - those with larger gardens can sell their produce in local community street and "farmers markets"...

And that would also be better for the environment...

I'm not opposed to rules, like you I'm opposed to "criminalization" ...

So I think you and I are in agreement, essentially.. and I don't see your arguement as xenophobic or racist or reactionary at all..

[Monk06]

81. Immigrants and Organized Labor

Unionized workers in the US

YR Unionized Percent

2004 123,554 13.8%


Mexican immigrants are unlikely to change the already
low number of organized US employees.

In fact Union organizers see them as ripe for membership.
The UAW is on the record supporting open immigration.

[mike_c]

109. welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Monk06]

155. My third welcome. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

[Buck Laser]

14. xenophobia

...is a strange thing. Despite the fact that we are almost entirely a nation of immigrants, there have always been discriminatory actions against the most recent minority immigrants. And the FACT of illegal immigration is that there are plenty of employers to hire them because they can get away with paying less. That does work to the disadvantage of legal residents sometimes. The real hypocrisy in this issue comes from the Republicans, who want to keep their cheap labor AND make a grandstand play for the xenophobes.

On another board I participate in, there are otherwise apparently sane people who want to build a big wall along the Mexico border, or go down and play solder with the "minutemen."

Personally, I've been delighted at the immediate and strong actions of hispanics in support of open immigration. It surprised me.

[radio4progressives]

51. The Wall and Militia is Insane and Deeply Disturbing..

It speaks volumes and it goes straight to the heart of my op..

[flyingfysh]

17. send back all those immigrants and their families

Starting with those undocumented English and Spanish who arrived after 1500.

I have Cherokee ancestry, so I would get to stay. For that matter, the Mexicans also have Indian ancestry, so they could also stay. The Indians were on this continent first.

[Erika]

28. Exactly

I had a friend today saying that only the American flag should prevail because they (the immigrants) needed to be assimilated. (I'm getting to hate that word) It sounds so borg.

I asked him if we had assimilated to the lifestyle of the Indians when we took over there land. He at least acknowledged the point.

[montana500]

126. Those immigrants weren't over populating the country.

It's not about race, it's about common sense.

[Erika]

22. If we naturalize illegals, they will no longer be exploited

and hurt our wage base. Plus, employers should be penalized if they bring them here for exploitation purposes.

All people deserve housing, education, and medical care. I don't care where they originate from.

O'Reilly said on his show tonight that the people of color wanted this legalization as part of their agenda to "brown" America. That is racism.

[benburch]

25. AMEN.

And there is a huge contingent here who objects to a non-white America.

They are as racist as any Klansman, but without the dry-cleaning bills.

[mike_c]

30. lol-- it's a veritable "war on caucasians...."

:rofl:

[ugarte]

50. Yeah, I sure would like to trade places with an illegal...

They've got it so good.

[radio4progressives]

58. yes that's racism.... O'Reilly is straight up front with it...

That's at the very core of the "outrage" over this incredibly manufactured "debate".

Lou Dobbs and his ilk, are completely and totally freaked out, that the White Race won't be the dominate race in America in a few generations, and some statistics show that might pan out to be true..

A couple of years ago i saw stats on California's population which suggest that the Latina/o - Chicana/o - Hispanic population actually outnumber whites in our state - When those numbers started getting around the country, that's when this issue became "hot" again. The White Supremacists worse nightmare appears to becoming true, at least in the forseable future.

And that's what this is really all about..

There was film out in the late 90's called Bullworth with Warrent Beatty, who played a California Senator who dropped all the phony pretenses that politicians put on - in terms of what they care about, who they represent etc ... at one point in the story, he shares with his new partner that fist thing that needs to be done to resolve the Race and Class issue in this country is first get rid of the white population. (!) by way of mixed marriages and propugating cross racial children - so that everyone will be brown... then we will be able to deal with the issue of Classism. Well it was funny film with a simplistic solution to very complex issues, but it had a sort of ring to for me..

[IndyJones]

136. I don't think that is what the issue is about in CA. CA needs the feds

to help pay for them to be here. There is only so much money in the till here. Hospitals have closed, schools are already overcrowded, etc. The rest of the country isn't helping out. Let's see everyone put their money where their mouth is and cough up the same $1,750 per taxpayer to send to the border states to help pay for the social services and rebuiding our infrustructures to support them and the increased population.

I don't see that as a race issue. It's a cost and population issue. I think some people are so ignorant on what the real issues are that the moment someone states a fact with which they disagree, they want to pull out the race card to throw at them as an insult. Ignorance is bliss, I hear.

[radio4progressives]

156. I Live in California, these remarks is straight up right wing radio...

I'm simply going to suggest that you might be protesting a bit too much..

We have good old prop 13 to thank for the reason why our schools are in complete shambles... of course all you right wingers who didn't want to pay for other peoples education squawked and squealed until you finally got your way.. the rest of it is just more of the same, all as a result of right wing tax cuts for the rich - and unjust wars that take the lions share of the treasury, not to mention life and limb of our people, and children of immigrants for the "fast track" to citizenship, if they can manage to survive.

[mike_c]

159. hospitals closing, schools overcrowded....

Proposition 13.

[jbnow]

165. Once they become legal workers, with all

rights that goes with that, the employers will choose new undocumented workers over them.

That problem is with the employers.

[Speck Tater]

29. OK. I finally get it.

You think Bush is not doing such a good job -- You're a traitor, a bush-basher.
You think bush is doing OK - You're a repuke or a bushbot.
You think there's something suspicious about 9/11 - you're a conspiracy theory kook.
You think creationism sounds fishy - You're a godless atheist and probably a satanist.
You think we need to do something about health care reform -- You're a welfare-state, commie-loving DEMONcrat.
You think we have an immigration problem -- You're a racist or a xenophobe.

It's now official. For each and every serious issue that needs to be openly discussed we now have a dismissive label which has the sole purpose of trivializing that important issue and holding up those who wish to discuss it to ridicule. The vision of our forefathers has finally been realized. We have become a nation of mindless name-callers.

What am I for noticing this phenomenon? -- An Anarchist?

[benburch]

32. "jerk" comes to mind... nt

[mike_c]

33. and do you seriously think that you haven't just engaged...

...in precisely the sort of profiling you're accusing others of doing? That complaint rings hollow.

[mzmolly]

34. Ya know for a Dem board there are a lot of self serving out of touch,

holier than thou, abusive, anti-middle class, anti-blue collar, anti-union, cheap labor supporting, classist/elitists posting here.

How much longer are rank and file Dems and DU members going to put up with this crap?

Screw the bullshit !@#% labels, let's find a balance that includes everyone - immigrants and working class Americans included.

[mike_c]

37. an important reminder for those who would persecute illegal immigrants....

Remember where this can be found? This what America is supposed to stand for.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

[Erika]

39. and our constitution states all are created equal n/t

[mzmolly]

41. "Give me your tired, your poor - so I can exploit them and keep Americans

in the same boat competing for slave wages."

No one suggests that America shouldn't be "the land of opportunity" but in order to be certain it is so, we need to do more than just invite people over the border.

[mike_c]

45. I agree-- we need to treat them as equals, including...

...extending work place wage protections, so that no one working in America makes less than a living wage. When people suggest rigorously prosecuting employers who hire illegal immigrants, I respond that we should prosecute employers who pay their employees-- regardless of their provenance-- less than a living wage. THAT'S the real crime, not that poor people with no other prospects will work for a pittance to feed their families.

[mzmolly]

46. I agree mostly.

I'd also like to see living wage/national health care provisions added to any immigration bill.

:hi:

Peace out.

[LittleClarkie]

52. Yep. And aren't they pissed off when they find out that instead of

going through all that paperwork, and waiting all that time, and working their way through the system, all they had to do was sneak over the border and they'd be golden.

Those who went through Ellis Island weren't exactly sneaking in, were they. This is a legal vs illegal issue. Why are some advocating the breaking of laws?

[mike_c]

57. because feeding people and helping them achieve a better life...

...for their families is more important than being strictly legal, IMO. In the Ellis Island days you could immigrate to America with few restrictions if you could afford passage and were white. If you weren't white it became a little trickier. The immigration issue has ALWAYS been deeply intertwined with this country's racism and knee-jerk zenophobia.

Your brown huddled masses, well, that's another matter.

[radio4progressives]

62. Thank You Mike_C... (big big sigh) ....

[LittleClarkie]

71. I'm going to try that on the next cop I encounter.

"Do we have to keep this STRICTLY legal?"

[radio4progressives]

78. Please try it on this administration instead????

[LittleClarkie]

90. Why? Bush agrees with you, it appears

It's the most liberal thing about the man, his immigration stance.

[radio4progressives]

135. Yeah.. odd that.... Kennedy is on the Same page with Bush on this too..

It's quite a remarkable phenom to see so many here be opposed to Kennedy's proposal (hardly a Bluer Liberal than Kennedy in the Senate) but rather repeat Sensenbrenner's proposal instead..

odd that..

[MercutioATC]

83. We REALLY need to get rid of that plaque...

The fact is, we DON'T want them. We can't afford them.

[radio4progressives]

88. Over my dead body...

You're wrong. You're blaming the wrong people and the Plaque is a beautiful and meaningful testament to what we as a nation should aspire to be.

you want to get rid of that, you want to get rid of what is good in our national heritage..

Fey!

[MercutioATC]

93. It's a simple economic issue. We can't afford them.

Dump another 12 million poor into this country and it's the American poor that will suffer.

The plaque was great when we were building a nation and need a population. We have one now.

It's great in theory, but I don't think it can practically work. Taking everybody's "huddled masses" will break us.

[mike_c]

105. "we can't afford them?!"

Do you honestly think that the cost of social services for immigrants is more of a drag on our economy than losing the contributions they make to the economy would be?

You really are doing your best to prove the OP right.

[MercutioATC]

124. O.K., maybe you can explain it to me.

Family of four. Two adults (unskilled labor), two children (not working). If this was an American family, I don't think anybody would question that there's a good chance they'd be in a tough financial position...probably receiving some type of aid.

If both parents work at $6/hour, that's about $25k in combined family income. They pay little (if any) income taxes. They probably can't afford to own a house, so they don't pay property taxes. They receive free schooling and city services and (depending on the degree of aid they receive) subsidized medical care, day care, food and housing. They also are removing two jobs from the available employment pool.

It's no accident that cities with a higher percentage of poor are in dire financial straits. The same principle holds true for a country. If you increase the percentage of low-income residents, the country as a whole suffers.

What magic do you propose to get around this fact?

[mike_c]

138. well since you asked....

I stated my "proposal" up thread. Quite simply, enact a federal living wage law that makes it illegal to hire ANY workers, regardless of their provenance, for less than a locally set living wage-- and I'd add mandatory health insurance of at least some minimal level, say the level of safety net provided under Medicare. Back it up with real labor law teeth. No one who works for a living would be a drag on the economic welfare of the community except under extraordinary circumstances, and I think in that case it is the proper role of government to care for people suffering extraordinary straits.

This is a duel edged sword, because it would also make goods and services more expensive across the board as the business cost of low wage workers increased-- but the alternative is the one we have now, with a permanent underclass of working poor that are perpetually vulnerable. Raising wages eliminates competition from the even more desperate poor who will work for less to feed their families because business owners simply cannot pay anyone less than a locally determined living wage. Illegal immigrants presently balance the extra costs to communities by working to keep the prices of goods and services low, so the converse should also be true-- paying higher costs for consumer goods produced by immigrant workers would be offset by lower need for social aid for workers making a living wage, and whose higher income would translate into economic stimulation at the local level.

I suggest we stop scapegoating poor people and start demanding that employers stop exploiting them.

[adarling]

40. well screw the freaks that believe that

I welcome them to this country with open arms. This country was built and is still being built on immigration. People disagree with this, then they need to take alook at their middle school or elementary school history books, freaking morons. Why do people get so upset over this? These people are trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. Welcome these people with open arms, that is the christian thing to do.

[Ian David]

42. This is gay. Everyone back into the pile.

[Kenergy]

47. Deleted because your post is nonsense n/t

[mike_c]

55. signs of fascism #3 and #12...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/14_Characteristics_Fascism.html

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -- The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

(snip)

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -- Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses, and even forego civil liberties, in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

more@link

That last might be restated as "Obsession with law and order." On the other hand, it does keep the trains running on time....

[radio4progressives]

68. The Law and Order thing is really weird...

We have an entire administration who has completely desimated our Constitution and the Bill of Rights - completely - where the fvck is the outrage?

We have a Congress that have passed bills that have draconian impact on citizens and consumers, stripping away of fundelmental and basic protections over our lives and ability to "pursue happiness" vis a vis favorability and protections from impunity for Corporations - where the fvck is the outrage?

No let's turn that anger, and frustration and hatred to the poor and the disenfranchised instead.. make their very existance and attempt to survive a criminal offense!

But we'll let BushCo get away with the destruction and death that he and his administration has done and continues to do against other nations and our own.

However, the Declaration of Indepndence (appended to our Constitution) says we should do differently:

WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Saftey and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes, and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accumstomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is thier Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, adn to provide new Guards for their future Security....

~snip~

Repeating what our Declaration of Independence provides what we as a people must do now:

But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is thier Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, adn to provide new Guards for their future Security....

[ugarte]

112. People throw around this word 'criminals' like they have a clue

If the undocumented were criminals, they would try them and put them in jail. As of now, immigration violation is still a civil matter, not a criminal matter. But Sensenbrenner and more than a few "DUers" (I use the term loosely) would like to change that and throw them in jail.

It's unbelievable, really.

[LittleClarkie]

114. Criminal, no. Illegal, yawp.

ie Driving over the speed limit, an illegal thing, doesn't make me a criminal. Nevertheless, I'd be waiting a long time if I expected amnesty.

[mike_c]

139. but I'll bet you do it all the time....

eom

[LittleClarkie]

147. Not generally. I'm kinda pokey actually. But the difference is that

if I'm caught doing that, or making a wrong turn, or somesuch, I don't think, nor would I expect, saying something like "Gee, officer, why the obsession with law and order" would get me out of a ticket. If I'm speeding, and I get caught, I deserve the ticket.

[mike_c]

152. what I meant is that we all break laws like this frequently...

...and yet we're not all running around demanding one another's arrest and punishment over it. So why scapegoat illegal immigrants if not because they're brown (racist), poor (classist), or foreign (xenophobia)?

[LittleClarkie]

154. I'm not demanding anyone's arrest and punishment

But neither do I expect someone doing something illegal to be rewarded.

Sensenbrenner is my Congressman. Don't get me started. I am NOT down with his little bill. I'm not down with making it a felony to be illegal or hire an illegal. I'm not for amnesty, is all, as I think it would encourage more illegal immigration. And I don't think it's fair to legal immigrants that someone leapfrog through the system.

There must be a compromise somewhere. As it stands now, I thought it was just a matter of, if the Feds find you out, you go on home.

I could see someone say, "Change the law" but not "Break the law"

[mike_c]

158. my problem with that is that as it stands now...

..."just a matter of, if the Feds find you out, you go on home" is what keeps illegal immigrants vulnerable. It's what enables unscrupulous employers to exploit them, and in turn create a situation that makes life even worse for America's home grown working poor. It's what makes them afraid to ask for help until they're really desperate, if they ask at all, and it's what keeps them in the grinding poverty that ultimately adds to the burdens of communities with large illegal immigrant populations-- the nation's economy benefits, but local communities bear the brunt of the costs. That's the status quo. Bringing those workers into citizenship makes them partners in the American social contract rather than its permanent underclass. They work damned hard, they have strong families, and they contribute a great deal to the American economy. What's not to like about giving them the legitimacy they need to begin pulling themselves out of the circumstances the status quo forces them into?

[LittleClarkie]

110. Ah, another one to try on the next cop I encounter.

"What is this obsession with law and order, officer?"

[ugarte]

118. I'll try to explain to you, as well

Breaking immigration law is not a matter of criminal law, otherwise they would try violators and put them in jail. It is a civil law matter and violators are deported. If I overstay my visa in another country, I won't be arrested because I am not a criminal. I will simply be deported, just like the undocumented in this country.

Of course the right wingers would like to change that, but, no, as of now, these people are not considered criminals by the U.S. Government.

[ugarte]

48. We made them illegals when we stole their land

And now WE'RE the victims??

:rofl:

[LittleClarkie]

54. Hrrr?

Whatcho talkin' bout, Willis?

It's been a while since our war with Mexico. Somehow I don't think those who sneak across the border just want their land back.

[Erika]

59. The Indians were here way before the Hispanics occurred

The Indians and the Hispanics had civilized governments and communities here long before 1492.

[LittleClarkie]

61. When did this become about the Indians

I'm pretty sure there aren't immigration issues with Native Americans.

[benburch]

63. No. THEY had immigration issues with US.

Little things like taking their lands by force and spreading disease among them intentionally...

[MercutioATC]

64. Respecting laws isn't racist.

I'm shocked by the number of posters here who want to encourage people to break the law...

[radio4progressives]

70. See post #68

[MercutioATC]

76. We're not talking about political refugees here,

we're talking about people who want a better life but are unwilling to take the legal steps necessary to make that happen.

You want to overthrow the government for them?

:wtf:

[radio4progressives]

108. No.. you're assuming they're "unwilling" to take legal steps..

you shouldn't make that assumption, that's media spin to make it seem like they are offered the opportunity to go through that process, when they are not. only those with money and connections have the door opened to them, which still takes time. And you completely remove the survival element from all of this. Food and Water and shelter before or after being granted Citizenship?

I think I'll go for the food, water and shelter first. if seeking food water and shelter makes me legally a "criminal" in your eyes, then so be it.

but that's your term, your frame of reference, your mind set, not mine.

[MercutioATC]

111. How many of the world's poor do you plan to feed?

...and shelter, and educate, and provide medical care and retirement benefits to?

Maybe you'd care to share how you plan to do this?

[ugarte]

73. Depends on the law...nt

[MercutioATC]

75. What's the problem with the law?

We HAVE immigration laws that allow people to legally reside in this country and/or become citizens. What's unjust about them?

[mike_c]

85. they make no provision for 11 or 12 million folks working in America....

I'd call that pretty unjust. Those folks make a huge contribution to the American economy that we citizens enjoy, yet you're content to regard them as criminals. I find that extremely unjust.

[MercutioATC]

89. They ARE criminals! They committed a crime when they illegally

crossed the border. You can argue mitigating circumstances, but please don't pretend that they didn't break the law (while millions of their countrymen chose to LEGALLY enter this country).

[mike_c]

94. you do know that obsession with law and order...

...is one of the fourteen defining characteristics of fascism, don't you? So is scapegoating a class of people, for that matter.

[MercutioATC]

98. How does this qualify as "obsession"?

I haven't seen ONE explanation of how our immigration laws are unjust. I haven't seen ONE good reason why these illegals HAD to enter the U.S. illegally, rather than following the legal process as millions of their countrymen have.

It's obsessive to expect people to follow laws???

[mike_c]

103. could you repeat that once more so we can all be certain...

...how not obsessed you are about it?

[MercutioATC]

115. I will if you'll answer my questions...

...care to take a stab at it?

[ugarte]

104. So you're with Sensenbrenner in wanting to criminalize these people?

Breaking immigration law is not yet a crime, otherwise they would try violators and put them in jail instead of deporting them. It is a violation of civil law, not criminal law. If I overstay my visa in another country, am I a criminal? Do they lock me up? No. They deport me. But maybe you and the Republicans will get your wish and they will all become felons.

[MercutioATC]

113. I haven't decided yet.

No, I don't want to jail them, so making them felons really serves no purpose. However, as you said, any other country would deport you. That seems like a reasonable solution to me.

[ugarte]

122. Tell me how you're going to deport 10 + million people

Maybe you weren't watching Hurricane Katrina and our government at work. Let's be real.

[MercutioATC]

127. How did they build the Golden Gate Bridge?

...one piece of steel at a time.

First, stop the influx of illegal immigration. Then, start deporting illegals as you find them. Pay for it through the fines levied against employers who hire undocumented workers.

[mike_c]

120. the poster has been ranting all over this thread about how criminal...

...illegal immigrants are, so I suspect he doesn't understand the distinction. And if they aren't criminals under current immigration laws, that rather deflates his argument justifying their persecution. I really suspect it's naked xenophobia-- the poster has also ranted about how illegal immigrants' presence harms Americans. That's "us" and "them" language, the basic syntax of xenophobia.

[ugarte]

123. I know. This seems to be one of those issues like abortion

People have their minds made up. But I'm surprised to see "Democrats" talking like Republicans.

[radio4progressives]

131. "That's "us" and "them" language, the basic syntax of xenophobia"

Exactly so. Apparently people have not thought through the issue to what should be an obvious conclusion, which I find deeply disturbing.

[mike_c]

133. thanks for the OP-- it's been an instructive evening of conversation...

...but it's getting late, even out here on the left coast. Bed time for me. :hi:

[radio4progressives]

157. I'm on the Left Coast too.. and signing out!

I had to get this rant off my chest, thanks for helping! :hi:

[MercutioATC]

134. Semantics. They commited an illegal act.

Fine, they're not "criminals"...but that doesn't mean that they didn't break the law.

I find it interesting that you have such an in-depth understanding of me based on this one discussion. Xenophobic? Hardly. I'm stating what I see as reality. The U.S. cannot afford to absorb an unlimited number of unskilled poor.

That fact aside, I have a hard time rewarding people for breaking the law. How do you encourage people to respect the new immigration law (whatever shape it takes) when you've just rewarded them for breaking the old one?

[mike_c]

141. you know, there's not much point in responding to your questions...

...when you consistently ignore the responses I've already given. I answered you directly up thread-- the response about integrating illegal immigrants into American society to make them beneficiaries of the law-- partners in the social contract the law serves. The response to which you replied "But they're CRIMINALS!"

[Fire Walk With Me]

67. Some day people will learn the value of, and the need to, live together.

Not today.

[Neil Lisst]

84. The word xenophobe is used as an insult here, and inappropriately

It's part of the rudeness some here have for all who disagree with them on immigration policy.

We have a lot more name callers than we do xenophobes. I rarely see anything xenophobic here. I see a lot "my way or the highway" on the topic, however. That cuts both ways, both sides.

I don't know why this kind of flamebait thread is allowed. You're calling the majority of the Democratic party xenophobic, because most of us do want a sane immigration policy.

[mike_c]

91. interestingly, I heard a Republican congressman today on NPR...

...say almost exactly the same thing about only wanting "a sane immigration policy." That's a cheap rhetorical device for entrapping anyone who disagrees, because they must not support sane policies, right? Of course, asking you why you agree with the republican sentiments expressed in that interview would be another example of that same rhetorical cheap shot, so I'll refrain.

[Neil Lisst]

116. that means nothing

Why not "I heard (the devil, or someone else) say the same thing."

So what?

It's not even an argument, it's an allegation, making your opponent out to be the same as those terrible rightwingers.

Most Dems want a sane immigration policy. You can quibble with it all you want, but it's true.

[radio4progressives]

119. That isn't being debated in this thread.. it's the supporters of the

Sensenbrenner Bill - those that want to CRIMINALIZE undocumented workers, you know.. what the demonstrations are all about? but apparently a lot of people here are supporting it..

[Neil Lisst]

128. well of course I'm against that bill, and any such bill

for the record

Most Americans, and most Dems don't want see all those illegal immigrants deported. They do want the problem addressed, and they do want big companies to stop profiting, and better border security.

I'm not a guy who could rip up a family or part of one, period.

[radio4progressives]

92. I'm not calling MOST of the Democtratic pary Xenophobic!

Kennedy's proposal sounds like it addresses the issues (generally speaking) in a humane and meaningful way, although i'm just basing my impresssion from speaches because i haven't read it yet...

I'm talking about straight up xenophobia that is posted all over this message board on this issue, I find it shocking and disturbing.

[Neil Lisst]

121. I can't get through a thread without reading the pious condemnations

of "racist, sexist, homophobe, xenophobe, corporatist," hurled with great regularity by the same dozen or so permanently angry leftists here.

It's supposed to be against the rules, but our leftmost members feel ever so free to lambaste others with such chronic and untrue attacks.

[mike_c]

130. "permanently angry leftists?"

Well, you must admit there's a great deal to be angry about. It's hard work and requires unceasing dedication.

I think I'll go to bed now. :hi:

[Neil Lisst]

132. it's a daily event, where the "unworthy" are attacked

It's a Dem site, and we shouldn't be having a small group blasting others with those words of character assassination and insult tossed around so constantly.

[Major Hogwash]

166. Have to agree with you on this.

No doubt this topic is a "hot" issue, but namecalling isn't going to solve any problems for anyone.

[IndyJones]

140. And how much of your paycheck goes to support them?

You seem to want to be so generous with the border states' monies. Have you opened your wallet yet?

When is the rest of the country going to kick in some cash to the border states to pay for their social services, to educate, feed and clothe them and to build the infrastructurs to support the growing increases in population (including the prisions, where about 1/3 of the population are illegally here in the US)?

Rather than spewing hateful ignorance, why don't you tell us all what you are doing to help them stay? Tell us how you personally are helping to foot the bill?

Or is it easier to sit back and think that the border states should shoulder the burden and let anyone and everyone come on in unchecked?

Or wait - maybe you are the racist here. You're doing a lot of talking, but no mention of any action or contributions on your part.

Here in San Diego, known terrorists have been smuggled in by the same people smuggling in people from Mexico. Are you fine with that, too? Great, let's give those smugglers your home address and let them smuggle them into your neighborhood. Let's see how "racist" you become when they smuggle terrorists into your backyard.

[mike_c]

142. and how much of your paycheck do you not have to spend...

...because the labor of illegal immigrants keeps the cost of goods and services low? People seem awfully reluctant to acknowledge the contributions illegal immigrants make to the American economy, which are considerable, while condemning the social services they need because in doing so they remain desperately poor. Up thread I talked about the need to pay ALL workers in America a living wage, which would reverse both circumstances. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[IndyJones]

144. That is a myth. Sorry, but my goods/services are not hardly

lower as a result. My kids go to over crowded schools, I drive on roads in need of repair, our hospitals are closing, our prisions are filled to the max. And my taxes continue to increase. Exactly where am I saving money here?

Like I asked, what are you paying?

Would you be in favor of a national tax to help shoulder the costs? I doubt it. It's fine so long as you personally are not helping with the costs.

[mike_c]

149. well, I live in the same border state you live in...

...so I assume I'm paying more or less the same as you. The difference is that I'm WILLING to pay it because I welcome immigrants to America. Just to make that clear, I am happy to contribute a portion of my taxes to the improvement of the lives of poor people in America, whether they are U.S. citizens or not. I'd like to see even more of my taxes spent for that purpose. If they're working in America, they deserve to be part of the American social fabric, and that includes the safety net.

I disagree with you that illegal immigrants are responsible for the circumstances you described. Prop 13 is responsible for them.

on edit: And you're deluding yourself if you don't believe that you're paying less for goods produced by low wage immigrants. Take a look at food prices in Japan, for instance.

[radio4progressives]

151. I'd rather be paying taxes for goods and services than MIC and Wars

but we don't get a say in that issue, and I'm not sure how indyj could possibly suggest otherwise.. :shrug:

[mike_c]

153. yeah, me too....

eom

[Douglas Carpenter]

162. be sure and watch Democracy Now for Tuesday, 11 April they have a great

report on the immigration protest and debate

Here is the link: http://www.democracynow.org/index.pl?

It's better to light one candle than curse the darkness

O8)

[Moderator]

167. Lock

This is flame bait