Best solution to prevent illegal immigration?

[yurbud]

Poll question: Best solution to prevent illegal immigration?

What to do with people who have already been here a while is a different issue.

[slackmaster]

1. "Economic development of Mexico", anyone?

:hide:

Or maybe start with "Eliminate corruption in Mexican government."

[yurbud]

3. shit! that's a good one

[Wickerman]

4. that's a thought

if we'd have spent 1/2 of the money in mexico that we have poured into Hallibur, er, Iraq, we'd emigration problems instead of immigration issues.

[Deep13]

6. Best possible choice, not in our power to do.

Or maybe it is. Are the Mexican elites puppets of U.S. companies?

[yurbud]

15. I think so. heard something on Pacifica radio about richest guy in Mexico

and guidelines for running country candidates for president have to sign off on.

I'll find the link.

[blindpig]

17. The best solution.

Few want to leave home, it is dire necessity and hope for their children which propels this mass immigration. Cracking down on American corps in Mexico is the first step by holding them to an American standard on a living wage, saftey and environmental standards. Pressure on the Mexican government in the form of carrots and sticks, done diplomaticly, could help. Help with family planning might not hurt either.

[TahitiNut]

21. "There is always an easy solution to every human problem ..."

As I said on March 25th ...
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/110

:shrug:

"There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong."
-- Henry Louis Mencken

[zeemike]

2. I chose other

My solution is much simpler and solves more than one problem,
Raise the minimum wage nationwide to $10 and hour.

[Buck Laser]

5. I voted "other" because...

the real bad guys in this system are the bigger business interests that make it easy and profitable for them to hire illegals. That might include farmers, especially those on the agribusiness scale, certainly would include most large construction firms, large restaurant businesses. I wonder how many illegals are on the Halliburton payroll, to use your example?

If the president of the US Chamber of Commerce got to spend a coupla years at Gitmo, it might modify his cavalier attitude.

It strikes me that the corporate interests in the US are using the problem of illegal immigration to foment class war--as they've done many times during my relatively long lifetime.

[mrcheerful]

7. Actually why blame illegals when americans are hiring them?

You want illegals to stop coming in go after those who hire them, simple, not with fines but with business loss and prison terms. Fines don't work because the businesses will just pass on the cost to consumers. No jobs = no illegals.

[Deep13]

9. Frankly, I blame both.

Just like I blame both Bush and the average voter who put him in office for this national disaster of a presidency.

[yurbud]

10. if you can't feed your family, what would you do?

[Deep13]

12. Move in with you.

I would do housework and after avoiding eviction for a few years, I would demand the right to be put on the deed to the house.

I know why they want to come here. Doesn't change the fact that it is unlawful to do so. In fact, the reason it is unlawful is because so many do want to come here.

[yurbud]

13. if we take away the incentive, jobs, they won't come

Switzerland is a nice place, but if I knew I couldn't get a job there, I wouldn't attempt to move there.

[Deep13]

19. Absolutely agree.

Unrealistic to expect poor foreigners to obey immigration laws when rich Americans will not.

[Deep13]

8. Enforce the damn law.

I like that night in the box idea except a day in jail seems a bit soft for employers who knowingly disregard the law. Also, a continuing business of using illegal labor might fall under RICO as a corrupt enterprise. Foreiture of profits and assets seems in order.

[yurbud]

14. FORFEITURE! I forgot that one! and use the proceeds for border and labor

enforcement. Now that would be too good.

Require the INS to be self-supporting off of assets they seize.

[Yupster]

31. Would that include me?

I've no doubt hired illegals to do my yardwork, etc.

Do I need to go to jail?

Should I not hire any Hispanic guys unless I ask them for "your papers please" first.

[Deep13]

36. RICO applies only to criminal enterprises.

For example, a developer who routinely hires illegal labor and knows he is doing it probably falls under RICO. A huge retail chain...I'll invent a name at random...say Sprawlmart who routinely uses illegal labor is definitely affected.

I don't think people you make honest mistakes in hiring or are deceived by a fraudulent I-9 is what most people have in mind. On the other hand, if a homeowner knows that the lawn crew he or she is hiring consists of illegal aliens, then yes, it applies to him or her.

[Eugene]

11. Other: Stiff fines for hiring undocumented workers

along with stiff penalties for non-payment of payroll taxes.
As long as the incentives to cheat are there, tighter security
won't stop undocumented workers from coming in.

Economic development in countries like Mexico may also help
in the long term. Mexico will need some alternative to migration
to promote stability.

[Justpat]

16. Today's lead editorial in the NY Times

spoke of their admiration for the demonstrators and of being moved to tears by the demonstrators rallying for "a precious cause."

I sent them a letter which I doubt will be published in which I said I would be equally moved to tears the day I see hundreds of
thousands, hopefully millions of Mexicans turn out to make similar demands of their own government. The demonstrators have
been applauded for exercising their right to persuade government to take action for their cause. I would applaud their courage
in forcing their governments to change the fabric of their own societies before they make any more demands on our own.

The concept that "we are a nation of immigrants" is one that was born and exercised in another time and place. At what point
do we say thank you to all the immigrants who helped build the country in the beginning, and accept that we have reached the
point where we can only accept limited numbers from this point on?

I hold the near blasphemous view that Statue of Liberty should be relegated to the status of a cultural antique. It is part of
our national myth that we a great melting pot. With the current situation of unchecked, unstoppable immigration, it appears that
the pot has reached the melting point.

I realize that these are very unpopular views on DU. So be it.

[Deep13]

18. You're my kind of old broad.

:applause:
We are a nation of the descendants of immigrants. Most of us are not immigrants ourselves. And yes, we are already overpopulated.

The Statue of Liberty plaque is a lovely sentiment for the exploitation of cheap immigrant labor.

[Justpat]

24. Thank you.

I was expecting to be soundly denounced for expressing these views.

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. put the focus on corporate globalization and neoliberal ideology

that is the real culprit that is losing jobs for Americans, draining our treasury and devastating the third world.

It is not moderate. It is not centrist. And it is certainly not mainstream. The American people don't want it. The people of the developing world don't want it. Just who does want it anyway?

see this article from FAIR: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2859

also see article below by David Sirota:

link:

http://www.davidsirota.com/2006/04/taboo-subject-at-core-of-immigration.html

The Taboo Subject at the Heart of the Immigration Debate

by David Sirota

Amid all the buzzword phrases like "border security," "guest
workers," and "amnesty" being thrown around in the superheated
immigration debate, one buzzword phrase has barely been mentioned:
"free trade." It's not that border security and guest worker status
discussions aren't important. But, as I discuss more fully in my
upcoming book Hostile Takeover, America's free trade policies get
almost no attention, no matter how central their role is in the major
challenges facing our country. How, you ask, does "free trade" fit
into immigration? It's pretty simple: had America actually had a
trade policy that lifted up the economic conditions for ordinary
workers both at home and in other countries, there would likely be
far less demand by desperate workers for illegal entry into our
country.

read full article - link: http://www.davidsirota.com/2006/04/taboo-subject-at-core-of-immigration.html

also see this article from FAIR:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2859

[yurbud]

42. got some heat for posting thread on neoliberalism (LINK)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2567277&mesg_id=2567277

[Capn Sunshine]

22. Your poll is rife with the American mythos on the subject

Quite honestly, what the US is doing is interfering with traditional migration patterns that have existed for centuries prior to the United States coveting the land and grabbing it a hundred years ago.

Historically, these people have often migrated from their small southern towns to the more urban north where they made money and sent it back to their families.

"Improving" things in Mexico won't eliminate a need for people to do better for their families, any more than improving things in rural Ohio would stop many of their children from coming to New York City.

You can't fight historic migration patterns, no matter how you try or what you say it's caused by.

Quit being distracted, the problems we have are not a result of hard working peoples in the lower classes, no matter what color they are.

Wake UP.

[Bridget Burke]

23. WE should not improve things in Mexico.

In fact, Mexicans have been trying to do that for years. Lots of demonstrations, lots of death & some progress. "Why don't they Protest at home?" the anti-immigrant crowd whines.


Presidente Fox is to the right of many Mexican politicians, but he was the first non-PRI president since the Revolution. He did work on the corruption problem, but it goes back several centuries.

At his first meeting with Bush, Fox wanted to work on a plan. He suggested some kind of guest worker program--not to my taste. But he also proposed incentives to make Mexicans want to return home. Bush gave NO response at all.

Improvements in Mexico would be good for their own sake. As you point out, people have been moving across the Border since before there was a Border. I live in Texas--Spanish will always be spoken here.

For now, let's focus on improvements in the USA.

[yurbud]

25. raising standards anywhere is good for both helper and helped

in a shrinking world.

[rman]

38. In light of the fact that we do degrade conditions in Mexico

(as per NAFTA, CAFTA etc) - degrade conditions for the workers that is, while we improve conditions for the rich and powerful few - i think we owe them something.

[yurbud]

26. personally, I don't care if they come as long as employers pay

American wages, not under the table or cash only and bypass taxes.

[Capn Sunshine]

28. Then work for a raise in the minimum wage.

That's at the base of this whole issue.

[yurbud]

30. tricky--I know at least one of my senators and my congressman would

vote for it.

The trick is getting a majority to join them.

[LWolf]

27. Other:

Fair and just wages and labor laws across the globe. As long as there is a place where those things do not exist, there will be people desperate to get out, and willing to be exploited for the chance to escape.

I believe it's a global labor issue, and a global corporate control issue.

[gulliver]

29. National ID with biometric signatures digitally ...

... signed by the government. Eliminate currency. Use all electronic money instead so that the history and location of every single U.S. penny is known at all times. Use RFIDs. Monitor and classify every communication.

Simple.

[Bridget Burke]

34. Sounds like Max Headroom's future.....

There will still be Blanks.

[galatea]

32. if the US,

the empire which built its riches on the immoral exploitation and illegal invasions of countless nations, stopped the practice and gave back to the world everything it has stolen in the last 230 years, immigrants would not have to move here.

This is not about Mexico, it's about American Greed.

[TheBaldyMan]

33. other, a 50' high wall of RW nuts piled Abu-Ghraib style from CA to TX.

The sight of their flabby, pale buttocks would be enough to scare anyone away from the border.

[Bridget Burke]

35. Please, NO!

Houston is pretty far from the Border, but the stench would probably be noticeable up here!

[0007]

37. I don't know what the answer is and I'm goddamn sure junior

doesn't either.

[Jai4WKC08]

39. Ultimately, the only solution will be a single "nation"

for the North American continent. Nation in quotes, because it'll probably be some sort of confederation or European-Union-like structure first.

It's the only thing that will bring us all to reasonably equitable standards of living, opportunity and so forth. There will continue to be regions/centers of poverty, of course, just as there are in the United States today. But people will be able to some extent to "vote with their feet," and all will able to participate in how government affects their lives and livelihood, and contribute to the welfare of the whole.

It's sort of inevitable anyway. If we don't blow ourselves up first. The entire course of human history is a gradual movement from smaller (in scope) institutions of government to larger ones: family to clan to tribe to city to state to nation to various international alliances and institutions.

It's a long time in the future, but it's the only "solution." Everything else is a stop-gap.

As for which stop-gap is best? Hell, I dunno. Probably something that strikes a balance between human rights and protection of the US workforce.

There are only two things of which I am sure:

1) Any guest worker program that looks like what they do in most Western European countries is a no-go. There must be a path to citizenship or we'll be creating more problems than we solve or alleviate. It's the right thing to do, but it's also the smart thing.

2) Our Democratic leadership had better get on the ball with some sort of plan and get it into the media (hard as that is, I realize). I watched the protests a couple days ago and the Repubs were all over the news, winning the framing war, playing on peoples fears and prejudices, making it look like Democrats cared more about "illegals" than Americans or our security, and turning this into THE wedge issue of the November elections. We can't find any solution, stop-gap or otherwise, unless we take back Congress.

[Jed Dilligan]

40. The status quo!

If things keep going the way they're going, Mexico will be trying to keep us out in 20 years. See, problem solved.

[ulysses]

41. the last one.

Include Central America in that, too.

[CPMaz]

43. To sum it up in 5 words

"United States of North America"

OK, I know it is extreme, and it is more to get people talking about 'solutions' that aren't rehashes of crap that hasn't worked in the past.

However, it isn't as far-fetched as it sounds.

Both countries are democracies with bi-cameral federal legislatures.

Both countries' governments have serious corruption issues. (hey - I'm just looking for points of similarity here :) )

Both countries are divided into states - USA 50; Mexico 31 (I think).

You can make do with speaking English in most parts of Mexico.

You can make do with speaking Spanish in most parts of the United States.

And so on....

The advantages of a union would be many - increased tax revenues ('undocumented' workers would become official, and contribute directly into the Treasury), a smaller southern border to defend/control, etc.

To be sure, there would be a lot of roadblocks on both sides of the border, but even the discussion could help resolve some of the conflicts over immigration.

Let the screaming begin.



:evilgrin:

Edit: didn't see post 39 by Jai4WKC08. Nice to see that I'm not the only crazy one here. :crazy: