Where did our majority go?

[Asgaya Dihi]

There is what I see as a very large and very ignored detail that should concern the Democratic party and on this board you seem more aware but as a party I'm still not hearing any concern over a pretty relevant question. Where did your party go? I don't mean that in a figurative sense, I mean it in a literal one.

There's a fairly interesting chart at the top of the following document that shows the growth of our prison systems over time, if you compare the years on that chart with the decline in influence of the party you might find an interesting correlation. The rise of the system and the fall of the party fairly closely match each other.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/pub9036.pdf

We're now the most imprisoned nation in the world by a long shot with at least 724 inmates per 100,000 residents with the next closest being Russia at just 564, among nations more similar to us our 724 inmates per 100,000 dwarfs England & Wales at 145, Australia at 120, Canada at 116 and Japan at just 60.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1044.pdf

But wait, we're still not quite done. The distribution of those prisoners is hardly equal among us. Whites overall are imprisoned at a rate of 393 per 100,000 while blacks are imprisoned at a rate of 2,531 per 100,000. Among young black males it's even worse with 12,603 per 100,000. (That's one in eight or 12.6% of Black men in their late 20s.)

http://www.prisonsucks.com/

We're still not quite done. Those young men are removed from their own neighborhoods in the census count and credited to the population of the area where they are imprisoned. The effect of that is to strip funding and representation from the often troubled neighborhoods they will be released to and to give that political power and additional representation to their jailers.

http://www.prisonersofthecensus.org/

This is an ugly system, and there's way too little talk of reform. I know where the difference between your losses and former wins went, the difference between minority party and majority. It's about time the party started working on the issue, isn't it?

[Avalux]

1. Do you consider yourself part of the Democratic Party?

Just thought I'd ask, because I can't tell by the way you've written your post. :shrug:

[Asgaya Dihi]

2. Rabid independent ;)

It's nothing against the party and I'd love to be able to support a lot of the goals of the party, but there's a couple of problems. One is their silence for too many years on subjects such as this, and the second is a concern that when we become too "loyal" and knee-jerk defend something rather than honestly think about it we can easily be used. Both parties have betrayed their former causes, I'm more or less waiting for the whole country to wake up.

[Avalux]

3. Thanks for your honesty.

Please keep in mind this message board is called "Democratic Underground" - members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.

:hi:



http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[Asgaya Dihi]

5. Yep

And what part of what I've posted doesn't follow that? It's an issue that does concern a lot of progressives, and should concern all of us. Last I heard it was Bush that didn't care about black people, not progressives ;)

[longship]

17. Wake up? Or shake up?

The best way to wake up the country might be to shake up the country. The best way to do that is to turn around the single party monopoly on power. The best way to do that is to support Democrats in the upcoming election.

I am an unabashed liberal. However, without eliminating the Repug lock on power there's absolutely zero chance of me getting my important issues heard. It's true that the Dems have royally fscked things up. However, they seem to be turning the corner, although not fast enough for my comfort. I am very unhappy with the Dems, but I am scared to death of the Repugs.

My position on issues and my disagreements with the Democratic Party mainstream will not stop me from adopting just about the only tactic to insure that my liberal policies will get a hearing. That is to vote for Democrats, and only Democrats in the upcoming Congressional election.

With very few exceptions, third party (or independant) candidates don't stand a chance. I wish this wasn't so, but it's the reality of our system right now.

The question is, are people going to yell about the system and do nothing to bring about a change? Or, are people going to work within the system. Voting for third party candidates, or undermining conservative Dem candidates because they are not liberal enough, will both end up helping the Repugs.

For instance, in Conn., Lieberman could be in big trouble. If he jumps the party to run as an independent, he's gonna lose. But does Lieberman's Dem challenger have the wherewithal to beat his Repug challenger when the Dem vote might be split between him and an independent Lieberman?

If the above scenerio happens, we're going to likely lose that seat to the Repugs. We're close enough as it is for taking back the Senate. Losing Conn may be the difference between shared power with a 50-50 Senate, and being a minority. That is a significant difference. All because one Dem votes with the Repugs more often than one wants him to.

In short, my yellow dogness is very strong this year. If I were voting in Conn. I might prefer to vote for Lieberman if I was convinced that the alternative would likely to lose the seat for the Dems. Yes, I'd have to hold my nose while voting, but losing the seat might leave a Congress which would be outright hostile to liberal policies. At least with a Dem majority I can get my issues on the table, even if one of the Dems is Joementum.

Also, if you aren't happy with the Dem party, contact your county chair and tell him or her that you want to be a precinct committee person. Get involved in the machinery. That's the best way to influence things. But please think long and hard about doing anything that might undermine the ability of the Dems to win back a majority.

These are tough times. I don't like things any more than anybody else. But without a majority in the next Congress, we're really screwed.

[Asgaya Dihi]

18. Slight confusion I think

I don't mean independent party, like I said in that post I don't follow any party as a general rule. I mean I vote and think vote myself, independently. Last election I did mostly vote Democratic with a couple of local exceptions for judges and such and I've posted that here I'm fairly sure, this next time, we'll see. If the Democratic party lived up to the goals that they talk about maybe I would be one, I've said that here before. I'm just waiting for them to wake up on some issues before I do, too little concern with the poor, the drug war and the prison system and too much with corporate money. If they never do, then I never will be.

[longship]

26. I understand your position.

I posted my post as much for the inevitable responses to your post than as a direct response to you.

I think that ChimpCo has done a lot to unite a diverse cross-section of the political spectrum against them. It's very nice to see posts from people like you who don't necessarily adhere to any partisan loyalty. Not all DUers are going to be friendly to such things. But I see it as an opportunity to embrace a larger spectrum of support.

I feel strongly that there are a wide diversity of issues with which we all can agree. Even if a person considers themself to be a mainstream Republican, they should be able to wrap their brain around the concept that the crew in power must be stopped before they do more horrible damage.

That's why I am more than willing to set aside my "liberal agenda", to look at the big picture, and to go for the only realistic solution we have right now. That's a Dem take-over of both houses of Congress. I don't see that happening by advocating solely liberal issues.

I think that inevitable end to this whole affair is the fracturing of the Republicans. There's the lunatic fringe which is in power now, and then there's the people like my father, who was a lifelong Republican, but liked Ike and hated George HW Bush. It's only a matter of time before the moderates and true conservatives become fed up with everything and take some kind of action. In the meantime, the Repug's loss is the Dem's gain. If the Dems are smart, they'll sieze the opportunity.

[0007]

6. Regardless of what party Asgaya Dihi is associated with he

brings out some very important issues that need to be addressed if we expect any kind of change in our government.

[Vickers]

4. Since you're an independent, have you posted similar views at

Free Republic? I mean, just in the name of balance and independence and all that.

And if so, how did they take it?

Did you make sure and also admonish them for their inaction on these issues, particularly since they control all three branches of government, the major media outlets, the churches, etc. etc.

Looking forward to your response.

[Asgaya Dihi]

7. At Free Republic, no.

I don't deal with nut jobs ;) I did however just finish a debate of sorts, he didn't say a lot but suggested the thread, with a corrections officer at the following link, though when the thread scrolls off it dies so it won't last forever. I post it where I figure I can find people to listen, not where it's just a waste of time. Doesn't much matter where past that I can get an audience there.

http://boards.swirve.com/board.cgi?boardset=utopia&boardid=politics&thread=41&spec=5947653

[ieoeja]

12. What would he post?

Something like...

"The more African-Americans we toss into jail, the more you will solidify the Conservative majority. The analysis in the links I attached give evidence of this fact. So keep up the good work!"

I don't understand what would be the purpose of such a post over there.

[Asgaya Dihi]

13. Education is the point.

I've been visiting that board off and on for a few years now. When I first started many would spout some of the horror stories we used to hear about pot as if it was fact, now when I visit I often see them already talking about something I was going to point out. Some got on activist lists and got aware, and now they can teach someone else.

As long as tough on crime plays so well there's no reform, not now and not ever. The point is to educate the public.

[Vickers]

15. He said he was an Independent, so I asked if he served this meal to

both sides.

Fair question, I think.

Frankly, I don't understand the purpose of his post HERE, other than to chide the minority party that (generally) has not been behind either the cause or effect of that which he describes above.

Aim the hose at the house on fire.

[Asgaya Dihi]

16. *sigh*

I know to some people everything is partisan, but to some of us it's really beside the point.

What part of this do you think the freepers are going to care about? The black people? Hardly. The inmate population? They assume they are all guilty and want to pass more felony laws. What aspect of this do you think they care about? If you're supposed to be the open minded and progressive ones and I'm already having to argue with you about motivations rather than subject, then why the hell would I waste my time there?

I've been doing this for a few years now, you can find it in the Washington Post archives, here, some game boards, some activist boards, and so on. Everyone really isn't out to get you, we've got some major problems and they are worth discussing with anyone that'll sit and listen. So far I've had good luck here, and it's not partisan. It's about problems.

[Vickers]

19. Well, let me ask you this: what is your PURPOSE for this thread?

:shrug:

[Asgaya Dihi]

20. Apparently none, thanks.

It was about educating people to an important issue, but since I was foolish enough to be honest with you I guess it's all about me now. Thanks.

[Vickers]

21. No, that gets back to my initial post...if you are here to educate me,

don;t you feel that the folks on other boards deserve the gift of your analysis also?

:shrug:

Or do you only feel comfortable in preacher-choir situations?

[Asgaya Dihi]

22. Not sure why

I'm not sure why you've decided to do this Vickers, but I don't think it's something I'm going to follow up on here. My post count is low but I've been posting here for a number of months now, mostly in the drug policy forum and mostly perfectly civil conversations. So far your main objection seems to be that rather than spending my time looking for places that might have an open mind I haven't wasted it at some place of your choosing.

If that's your main objection you're welcome to it. I've nothing against you, not sure why you seem to with me. I'll be back in a few hours, will deal with whatever then.

[Vickers]

23. FTR, I called neither your time here nor your post count into question

And I believe that I have kept a civil tone throughout (apologies if you feel otherwise). I have nothing against you either; hey, it's just the internets, right?

You seem to think that the Democratic Party is failing you somehow, and I find that hard to reconcile with (a) your reluctance to spread this gospel as far and as wide as you can, coupled with (b) your incredulity that it isn't received with open arms and flowers (to steal a phrase) here.

I apologize if I have misinterpreted things. Enjoy your break.

[Asgaya Dihi]

24. No problem

There's no point preaching to the choir, that's why I don't stick to the activist boards. There's no point preaching to those who really don't care. I pick places where it might do some good, period.

From what I've read here it's a fairly common feeling that both parties have some real problems, and neither is working on this issue. Why would it surprise you that I'm not thrilled with either party right now?

As long as tough on crime plays so well there's no reform, the only way to change that is to get out there and talk with people. Ones that might listen. It's a real problem, it currently involves millions of inmates or about 6 times the number we had in the 70's, plus their families. That's a lot of single mothers, hampered education, and lost opportunities. It's also lost tax revenue, instead of paying taxes we're paying to keep them locked up. The ripples just spread, and spread, and spread.

So yeah, I'll talk with anyone who will listen, and not waste my time. We've wasted enough already.

[politicaholic]

8. The way the prison system is run is only one small part of the problem...

distribution of federal education funds, distribution of property taxes, affirmative action, gun control, bandaid legislation from the local government up to Washington, and the complete lack of willingness to stick with a rehabilition program longer than it takes to win another election are all parts of the greater problem.

The domestic policy is broken on both of the sides of the isle because most voters are one or two issue voters. The society today has a rapidly short attention span and a lack of ability to look at the big picture.

You have to pay for a society that works. Many (50% or so) Americans aren't willing to do that.

good informative well researched post.

[sinkingfeeling]

9. Your points are valid. It is the march to the far right with it's

authoritarian view of what is 'criminal' that is frightening.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Consider also that if a white, suburban kid is caught with a bag

of dope he gets a good talking to, but a black inner-city kid caught with an equal amount of dope and it's an introduction to the American criminal justice system.

The deliberate disenfranchisement of minorities.

[Blue_Tires]

11. welcome to the site!

[Lexingtonian]

14. It's true that prisoner and ex-prisoner rights declined

along with the decline of the Democratic Party after 1966/68, and they've improved again in small ways with the slow and troubled reascent of the Party starting in the early Nineties. The rest of your theory is off somewhat.

You think the Democrats have not changed or had to change much since the LBJ days. That was the Party that was cleanly aligned with the caste system of the country, that selectively improved the lot of certain groups of citizens and ignored the others to the extent possible.

Times have changed. The political dividing lines are not cleanly between caste groups anymore, they run through each one. The divisions are more generational, and regional, and religion-based; they're less racial, and less socioeconomic, and less ethnic. In the relatively backwards parts of the country things look close to what they were in the Sixties in this regard, in the leading areas they look nothing like things were in the Sixties.

To my understanding the two Parties now represent the Old System, the Past and the colonial social and economic and political conventions of Settlement America, in the case of the Republicans, and the Future and assimilation to Modernity on the Democratic side. Yes, both Parties hate these assigned roles and resist them in a lot of ways, and pretend to something else. But The People doesn't care what they think or want or like, The People uses the Parties and presently hates them both for their poor service and unwillingness and selfdeceptions in what it needs them for.

The unfortunate truth about ex-offenders is that they are very typical citizens at the ballot box, and turn out to vote at the typical rates of their age class, income level/education level, and motivation of their community. That comes out to 10% turnout in places where the laws allow all of them to vote. Yes, a lot of them are barred from voting by evil disenfranchisement laws, but the real number of votes that would result from repealing all those laws is perhaps half a million, maximally a million. That is not where Democrats have lost the national majority and is, unfortunately, not the source where Democrats are going to recover it.

Yes, when Democrats have the national majority and a lot of federal power, prisoner and ex-prisoner rights will change for the better. And, we hope, some gratitude and sense of productive relationship will result.

But the fight for national majority is really centered in middle class white suburbia, for practical purposes. Criminal rights is just one element of a larger conflict about remaining medieval in our views as a society or becoming truly Modern. Modern means that people are no longer fixed in their castes, in a station in life, by birth or behavior or money.

As a social and economic politics, for Democrats it's all about the question of properly interpreting and enforcing 14th Amendment civil rights guarantees for all Americans and visitors/guests in a general way. Since 1968 the Party has been continuously forced to 'go wider' in the matter, taking in people from all parts of society whose 14th Amendment rights are either not conceded or not enforced by the governing conservative majority. But there are so many different aspects of the problem, so many groups with different problems and full of "conservatism" about the importance and rightness of other groups' problems of the kind.

Slowly the recognition is building across the various Democratic Party affiliated groups that ex-offenders' rights, womens' rights, gay rights, immigrants' rights, workers' rights, and minority rights are all elements of the same problem in implementing the Constitution.

[Ciggies and coffee]

25. Good Luck

The duopoly is duly committed to the war on drugs.