Why is it that our latino brothers and sisters can get out in mass ?

[tavalon]

Have white t-shirts (a major coup for the picture taking folks) and stay on message and when that message includes carrying a flag from their own country and that pisses off someone somewhere, suddenly these folks have all the American Flags they could want. We as the peace movement have never had their sponsor, that's why. These protests are being spearheaded by big bidness as Molly Ivins would say to get what big bidness wants and fuck them latinos - they are just mighty fine agitprops.

I'm not dissing the amazing work that is being done, I'm questioning how the money is happening for these poor immigrants to be so well seen. I'm not trusting the underbelly. Karl Rove has trained me to scan the horizon every time one of these "grassroots" things happens to see what is really happening.

Thoughts? Oh, and for street cred one of my partners was in an LA gang when she was young, another is half hispanic and one of them lost a number of family members in the ovens of germany. I'm the only american mutt and with a little work I could get my american indian cred.

[blue cat]

1. The talk at lunch today

among repub relatives was that the protests were back firing. Someone brought up protestors who were flying the American flag upside down, and the Mexican flag on top of it.

[Erika]

3. Those flags were very much in the minority

Pun intended.

[FARAFIELD]

32. FIRST OF ALL YOUR PREMISE IS ALL SCREWED UP

The reason they can get out in mass is that they listen to different media, the spanish language radio stations and Univision pushed this and coordinated it, and because WHITE america doesnt listen to those stations, that means no one in the MSMedia was listening. The simply told them where to show up and what to wear and switced to American Flags after the intital dust up. Molly Ivins frankly doesnt know shit. It reached a lot of people because the stations do, and WTF? calling them "poor immigrants"? I guess you fell for the RIght Wing Meme that they WERE immigrants. There was a walkout of school kids in my Hometown and theres not proof that the demonstrations werent full of Americans. I the sort of comments that were made in the media show the lack of depth of reporting on these marches.

[tavalon]

42. BTW, Molly Ivins does know lots of good shit

She however did not proffer the original statement, I used her term for big business which she Texifies to Bidness. It was my point of view that may or may not have been full of shit.

Having been at one of the protests I am aware that there was an amazing mix of folks, though many were in fact immigrants. Of course, I live close to the border so that's no surprise. I give healthcare to illegals all the time and happily so. Generalizations are always hooie, but I like taking care of hispanics as a rule more than white folks. They are generally nicer and so grateful it hurts.

[Erika]

2. White T-Shirts and Flags cost a lot of money?

Remember after 9/11? We all had flags and bumper magnets.

[tavalon]

41. Let's say t-shirts cost 25 cents

and the flags cost 75 cents to round out to a simple 1 dollar. There have been a couple of million people out at these various protests. And the water and other support services (read -portapotties) I'd say we're looking at a few million dollars, yes, easily.

[Vexatious Ape]

4. I like the way the Latinos

seem to be getting out there day after day after day, and in big numbers. That's why their getting all the press--they're in americas face. I wish the anti-war movment could do the same.

[bdamomma]

46. discontent among Americans is building, the anger

we have will have to be dispelled soon.

[JI7]

5. you assume everyone or most protesting are poor immigrants

[EFerrari]

8. Well, we know that's not true. Greens, scouts, a whole lotta people

are marching in support.

/typo. geeze.

[EFerrari]

6. Radio. Which is probably being bought by the Thuggery.

But, and this is the money shot, what started out as a manipulation of the Latino community will wind up screwing the Thuggery and helping the people.

I love it.

lol

[shamrock]

7. I'm not trying to be smart here,

but I realize that most of the illegal immigrants would rather be in Mexico, if they could make a decent living, so why aren't they applying the same effort there? Maybe they could make some changes in their own country so they wouldn't have to risk their lives to come here. Look at how many poor there are in Mexico. Imagine the massive protests they could have. I don't know, it just seems backwards to me.

[madeline_con]

12. If it's any consolation, I agree with you. n/t

[bliss_eternal]

13. I'm just guessing here--

but maybe, just maybe their govt. is as messed up as ours. Maybe it's easier to flee than to fight what ultimately doesn't seem like a winning battle?

Again, just throwing it out there. I'm not an expert on this topic by any means. But my heart goes out to anyone coming here because their homeland sucks. With every effort on the part of this administration to turn back the hands of time for so many people, I have to be honest. I've thought many, many times about leaving our country.

[Erika]

16. Yes, it is very sad

As the Statue of Liberty invites all those seeking a better life to come here. Now we want to denigrate those seeking a better life to an inferior status.

Yet, they come because our employers are willing to give them jobs at a profit to the employers.

About the time the employers would be found as felons for using these people, immigration problems would dry up. Our government won't go that far.

[PublicWrath]

28. Did you happen to see a thread about the money that goes into the

Soc Sec system by undocumented workers and is kept by the treasury? Somebody on the thread said when bush got in he immediately fixed it so the SocSec office would not notify the employers that the Soc Sec numbers are phony. It was discussed as one of bush's money grabs, but I wonder if it wasn't also done so the employers wouldn't be "officially" notified and therefore if something came up later, they could just pretend they had no idea they were employing illegal immigrants.

This is the crookedest damn government we've ever had in this country, and I sometimes wonder if they have planned their tricks years in advance for reasons we haven't even glimpsed yet. You know, sometimes lately, I've been afraid these bastards are going to suddenly snatch up 200,000 of the younger Mexicans and force them into the army to be ground up in Syria or Iran.

I just wouldn't anything past bush.

[Arkansas Granny]

31. I don't know that they could force undocumented workers into

fighting their wars, but they make it very tempting for them to join the military. You can be streamlined for citizenship, along with your family, in exchange for military service.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/MilitaryBrochurev7.htm

[PublicWrath]

40. I worry about it all the time.

My father was naturalized through military service a generation ago. But we didn't have Caligula running things then.
I just hate to see a larger army while bush is still here. And I if see anything that smacks of a massive "ethnic draft" my nazi alarm is going to melt right off the wall. I don't approve of the open border business, but I sure don't want to see the Mexican folks already here used as cannon fodder to further bush's wrecking ball foreign policy.

[PublicWrath]

27. The problems in Latin America have accumulated for a long time.

And I feel dreadfully sorry for the Mexicans who come here. Sadly, I think you'd find people in just the same numbers from any country in Latin America who'd risk a great deal to get out, but of course have few ways of getting here. They, too, have forces at work making sure the clock doesn't advance.

BTW, I have been wondering about leaving, too. The past 18 months I've lived in a constant state of alarm, outrage, paranoia. And suspense.
The fundys scare me worse than anything. I keep picturing the robed zombies in the Omega Man. I actually had a nightmare in which I was chased through a building by republican vampires, I ran into a room and couldn't get the door closed. My nerves are just shot to hell.

[PublicWrath]

23. There is a force throughout Latin America that has always worked

in synergy with corrupt and plutocratic governments to oppress the people.
It's been going on for 500 years and many places down there are in much worse shape than Mexico. There are scenes all over L. America that would make you weep with anger. Any demand for a more progressive, equitable system is seen as a threat, and it collaborates with evil governments to remain in power. "Blessed, restraining, poverty", is the order it strives to achieve. It has been painfully successful.

Mexico City in particular is overpopulated and of course this is one of several reasons for high unemployment and low wages. Also, Mexico itself, over the years has been flooded with immigrants from the south, although currently their border enforcement is much more conscientious.

Latin America is a land of sorrows. And they should, as you say, demand changes. But first, they'll have to identify their oppressors.

[acmejack]

30. Their own Government would not tolerate those massive protests!

Thats why, they would be brutally repressed....

[Bridget Burke]

44. Don't worry. You aren't.

What city is this? What is the occasion?

[pacalo]

9. My thoughts exactly! From day one, that was my same impression.

When considering what Cindy Sheehan has had to endure, you have to ask why such a massive group is able to have free access to the streets, without enduring lines of swat teams ready to arrest them if they "step over the designated line."

Where are the designated "free speech zones"?

Why so much tv coverage? Compare the coverage they're getting to the near black-out coverage of the huge anti-war demonstrations around the country (& the world) last March on the anniversary of the Iraq invasion.

Coincidentally, wasn't Bush in Mexico meeting with Fox the week before the marches began?

These marchers obviously have the blessing of this administration. I just haven't figured out why yet.

[madeline_con]

11. They are to become a cheaply paid underclass of worker bees.

It's a racist Repug agenda that the propoganda machine is making into a widely popular movement for "rights".

[pacalo]

20. Yes, but I was wondering what purpose these protests serve for

this misadministration. If they didn't have anything to gain from the publicity of these huge crowds, there's no way they would have allowed them to protest.

I was wondering if the intent is to show their prejudiced, anti-immigration base that their backs are against the wall, with the hope that the "Joe Six-Packs" (Bush loves that term) will accept/forgive this administration when it passes legislation that they presently don't want.

This administration does what it wants to do, but this one could cost them in votes; with the election around the corner, they're laying the groundwork to break the news of why they have to do what they've already planned to do.

[madeline_con]

22. yes. n/t

[PublicWrath]

29. You know, bush wants Pemex the national oil company of Mexico to open

to foreign investment. It's got vast, untapped resources of oil that Mexico doesn't yet have the money to develop. That means Halliburton will go dig some new holes for Pemex and Exxon will buy all the stock that the Mexican government will float. IF the Mexican legislature will open Pemex.

The Mexican government is intensely interested in open borders.
10 billion dollars are sent back south every year. It's a major part of the Mexican economy. That's why bush is working so hard for a "guest worker" program. Cheap labor is just a side "benefit", and a lot of rethugs are starting to feel a little betrayed by bush's willingness to flood the southern red states with immigrants in his efforts to grab Mexico's oil.,

Bush is trading the open border business to the Mexican legislature for keys into Pemex. Once they get a foot in on Pemex, they'll steal all they can, and America will be tampering in Mexican politics for the next half century. He's been working on this for years. It's in the oil and gas news all the time and financial articles, etc. Immigration for Oil, and stated just that plainly, too. The thugs even pushed a minor resolution through three or so years back in just those terms. Dems in Congress were calling it the Halliburton Amendment. And it's just wrong.

[pacalo]

36. Thanks for the info -- I didn't know about Pemex.

And welcome to DU, PublicWrath! :hi:

[shamrock]

14. My guess?

bush (corporations) wants the cheap labor here, but he's over a barrel. He has to please his base, who are mainly against illegal immigrants. So, if the protests are massive enough, and long enough and loud enough, and get enough news coverage he can say that 'the people have spoken'. To please his base he will say that he at least has to compromise.

[silverojo]

24. You're very close to the answer

<<When considering what Cindy Sheehan has had to endure, you have to ask why such a massive group is able to have free access to the streets, without enduring lines of swat teams ready to arrest them if they "step over the designated line."

Where are the designated "free speech zones"?>>

Bu$hCo saves all that for people protesting wars.

<<Why so much tv coverage? Compare the coverage they're getting to the near black-out coverage of the huge anti-war demonstrations around the country (& the world) last March on the anniversary of the Iraq invasion.>>

The media is with Bush. Therefore, if Bush wants the illegals to have TV time, so shall it be done.

<<These marchers obviously have the blessing of this administration. I just haven't figured out why yet.>>

That's easy:

* Letting immigrants in to work for substandard wages helps rip apart the middle class that Bush et. al. hate so much. Bush is on the side of corporate America, and they love being able to pay illegals next to nothing, knowing they don't need to have safe working conditions because the illegals can't complain.

* Bush ends up looking like the good guy if he suggests a "guest worker" program while other people are suggesting severely toughening the laws about illegal immigration

* Bush supports anything illegal, whether it's illegal immigrants or illegal wars.

Understand that, when the illegals have the support of Bush, Fox, and the Mexican mafia, you know their position is dead wrong.

Welcome legals...prosecute illegals (and the slimeballs who employ them!!!!)

[shamrock]

26. And as a bonus

all the wages here will go down to compete with out-sourcing and in-sourcing. Better for the corporations, better for (him).

[pacalo]

37. Bush's inflexibility & his consistency of favoring corporations &

the wealthiest Americans actually make it easier to read him. The inconsistency of Bush's approach toward the two massive protest marches (immigration & anti-war) is a dead giveaway that he & his cronies will be benefiting.

[rodeodance]

25. I have wondered this my self

[tavalon]

33. In a sideways way, that was my point

Big business doesn't want this to stop because their access to slave labor wage earners would dry up but the administration needs to look tough on immigration. So I think their being funded by big business but I'm not sure what the administration is getting out of it.

If it's just a load of personal power on the part of the latinos and not an extra money shot to help out, we, the peace activists need that motivation and we need to be out there every day just like them, but we aren't. Why aren't we? My guess would be these things do cost money, for permits, for water, for color coordinated shirts for communication.

[pacalo]

38. I've always envisioned a huge march up to the Capitol.

Camp there until the congressmen give us adequate explanations to their rubber-stamping this administration, why there haven't been substantial hearings about this administration's long list of corruption, etc.

And we'd stay there until they admit they were wrong, that changes will be made to restore our confidence. Plus, by the time we leave, there will be dates assigned for the hearings they will promise to hold.

I know...I'm dreaming.

[PublicWrath]

10. It's been reported that the Catholic Church has done a lot of the

sponsoring. And you should still question it.

[az chela]

15. OK here is my question!!!!!

Why the hell can they get millions of protestors in the streets and we cant do the same to end this fucking war????
Peace NOW

[shamrock]

17. It's all about

media pleasing (you know who). He wants cheap labor here. He doesn't want anyone protesting the war. He wants war. See, simple.

[Erika]

21. Because Faux News, etc

are saying anyone who disagrees with W is an unpatriotic traitor and enough GOP businessmen back them. Of course, THEIR kids are not involved in the war. Much like in Vietnam.

[tavalon]

34. We got 600,000 out last sept 24th

There was a media blockout. We can't afford to pull together such massive protests on a daily basis unless we had a good donor or two (A.N.S.W.E.R. isn't the answer). My questions have to do with where is the money coming from and why are they getting the free media coverage that we lack. They've been answered fairly well during this thread.

[neoblues]

18. Immigration and Anti-War are good...

But I keep wondering where the Democratic Party is when it comes to demonstrating against the current political mis-leadership. Do we not need such public displays to demand more competition in the media (or less Corporate control), or impeach/censure of the Bush mal-Administration, or perhaps even more importantly voter's rights/anti-electoral fraud and anti-voter disenfranchisement? These issues and particularly the first and last could be considered urgent in terms of realizing improved chances in this year's elections--which, arguably needs to be our top priority (since with success therein, we would stand a real chance of affecting issues such as immigration and the war). Why aren't we doing whatever's necessary to organize and fund such operations to demand the changes necessary to ensure the chances of maintaining our very Democracy?

[madeline_con]

19. 'Immigration Protests'

'Immigration Protests' Cover For Racist Ethnic Cleansing Movement
Atzlan and Mexican Klan groups rejoice at start of 'la reconquista'

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/290306ethniccleansing.htm

[Bridget Burke]

45. Thanks for that hilarious link.

Does anybody actually take this stuff seriously?

[ladjf]

35. Passion and opportunity.

[Jai4WKC08]

39. Because their way of life is threatened

If more people perceived themselves as affected by the war in Iraq (or any other crap the Bushies have pulled), non-latinos would be in the streets too.

I happen to agree with you that the Repubs were behind at least some aspects of the marches. Not only providing the signs and flags, but it sure seemed to me that they were all set to appear on the cable news shows and hawk their anti-Dem spin.

But they couldn't have done it without the many thousands of participants who were completely sincere and deserve our admiration.

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. Government mind control rays are not currently broadcasting is Spanish

;)

[Tesha]

47. Aesop figured this out thousands of years ago.

THE HARE AND THE HOUND

A Hound started a Hare from her form, and pursued her for some
distance; but as she gradually gained upon him, he gave up the chase.
A rustic who had seen the race met the Hound as he was returning, and
taunted him with his defeat. "The little one was too much for you,"
said he. "Ah, well," said the Hound, "don't forget it's one thing to
be running for your dinner, but quite another to be running for your
life".

-=-=-=-

We're just protesting for our dinner.

Tesha

[Bridget Burke]

48. Do you have any PROOF of Republican sponsorship?

Not everybody involved was a "poor immigrant." In fact, not all the immigrants are poor.

Yes, the protests did make other protests look a bit lukewarm.