60 Minutes can go to... (Teaching Bible in Public Schools Controversy)

[Meldread]

Most viewers probably wouldn't have guessed it by watching 60 Minutes this morning, but there is actually a controversy on teaching the Bible in Public Schools. I'm appalled at their reporting on this. First and foremost they didn't have any opposing view points interviewed, they only had two view points - both in favor of teaching the Bible in Public Schools. The only disagreement between them was HOW to go about doing it.

To make matters worse they didn't even ask the tough questions. It made me sick to my stomach to watch.

I'd like to see some people pushing for this realize that the sword cuts both ways on this issue. If the Bible WAS taught in Public Schools, all sides would have to be examined, that means both pro and con. How many fundi's want their kids going to school and having to examine why God killed so many innocent people, including children? How many fundi's want their kids going to school and having to examine the fact that the Bible is obviously inaccurate in some parts, and is even inconsistent with itself? How many fundi's want their kids going to school and being taught the Bible by a non-Christian?

Those are some questions I'd like to see asked, and the answers to those questions would prove the agenda with these people.

[Zen Democrat]

1. Lot got drunk, slept with his daughters, and they had sons by him.

Will they be teaching that in school?

[Meldread]

5. Exactly.

I have absolutely no problem with the Bible being taught as literature in Public Schools. Especially if it's used in a historical context, for example the examination of the passages used by the KKK to justify their racism. The problem is, I'm not stupid enough to believe it would be taught objectively. I know damn well, and anyone who is honest also knows damn well, that there will be a "faith affirming" approach taken. In other words, only pro-Bible things will be taught and the "bad parts" over looked.

If something like this happened, I'd have to consider becoming a teacher JUST so I could teach that class. I'd imagine I'd be fired within a week.

[madeline_con]

2. ".;.. being taught the Bible by a non-Christian? "

Good God! The plan is circling the drain now!

[DBoon]

3. and which bible is used?

meaning which religion is endorsed?

I bet you it won't be the Hebrew bible. Too bad for any Jewish kids in that school. They get to learn they don't use the "real" bible.

[Warpy]

6. Same for the Catholic kids, no Douay version for them

and certainly no Book of Mormon and no JW bible, either. It's KJV as the word of gawd almighty, and if your religion disagrees, you're going to hell.

I remember those babble classes in the first segregated school I attended. I remember being shunted into the library during those classes (Irish Catholic mom, Jewish last name), something that would have been a real treat had it not provided fodder for bullies. Kids don't "get" sectarian disagreement and and respect for other faiths.

This is a bad, bad idea whose time has come and gone long ago. I'm utterly sickened that it's coming back.

There were riots in Philadelphia in the 19th century over which version of the ten commandments was to be posted in public schools. The rioting continued for days and people were killed.

This is why we keep religion in the churches and in the home. If they want their brats propagandized, they need to send them to religious schools.

[Finder]

11. Ironically, most Catholic schools do NOT use the bible. n/t

[Pirate Smile]

21. The bible wasn't a big thing when I went to Catholic School. The nuns

told us some of the stories in the Old Testament were parables, stories to teach lessons and not literal fact. The fundies sure don't agree with that. The religion classes focused on the New Testament.

We also had a comparative religion class in High School that explained the basic tenants of all the major religions and how they are all just looking for answers to the universal questions in life - Why are we here? Where did we come from? What is our purpose in life? What happens after we die?

After taking that class and then hearing stories about how some protestant sects said only 30% of Americans could get to heaven, the rest of us are all going to hell, I wondered who in the world are these lunatics? What kind of cruel, vengeful God were they taught to worship?

[Wise Doubter]

12. which ever is used.....

will there be any revised editions, like so many of our current education materials

[DBoon]

18. and will the publisher renumber the verses every year

to force schools to buy the new versions (just like they do with other textbooks)?

[peacetalksforall]

16. Maybe they will never agree on a bible and we don't have to be

concerned.

I will only ever agree to a comprehensive 'belief' class.

[DIKB]

4. I hate that it's only 2 views represented.

Where's the scientologist saying that Dianetics should be taught?

Or the Muslim demanding the Koran be taught?

The Torah?

And I have a nice little test they can use after teaching the Bible in school:

http://exchristian.net/3/

Take it yourself and see how well you know your scripture.

[Meldread]

8. Exactly.

When it comes time to learn about the Middle East can we expect students in Public Schools to open the Koran for study?

[Finder]

10. They do use the Koran as well...

It would be impossible to teach about the Ottoman Empire, Inquisitions, Crimean War or any of the other eras without using references from the different religions and their texts.

[Buns_of_Fire]

28. Fascinating test. Put me in MY place real quick!

On edit: And I even took it TWICE! ;-)

[lwesty]

30. Very funny

I couldn't believe I got every question wrong until I started to take it again this time choosing the other answer. Very Funny!!!

[Broken_Hero]

32. Is this test a joke?

out of 20, 50/50 questions, i missed every single one of them...i guess i'm just that effing dumb...:)

[AllegroRondo]

37. Its impossible to get any right

for example, question one "how many men were in Jesus tomb?"

one part of the Bible says one, another part says two. So either answer is wrong.

Its meant to point out the major inconsistancies of the Bible.

[Broken_Hero]

38. Okay...:)...n/t

[cmkramer]

7. What's the problem?

There's no prohibition against teaching the Bible in public schools. What you can't do is proselytize -- use it as a tool to get people to become Christians. Having it as part of a comparative literature class is fine, for example.

I'm guessing -- I didn't watch the show -- that one side wanted it taught as literal truth and one side did not. Yep, absolutely no difference. That's meant to be sarcasm.

ETA: I guess my theory about the controversy must be wrong. What exactly was the controversy about? Whether other holy books should be included, what version of the Bible to use, etc.?

[Meldread]

13. No, that isn't how it was represented.

One side (the one that got the most air time) was obviously pushing an agenda, saying almost exactly what you said word-for-word. "It's about literature, there won't be any proselytizing." Of course, 60 Minutes DID dispel his story by showing an objective group who had reviewed their course and pointed out how it was basically thinly veiled proselytizing in the classroom. (The guy's response to that was a slimy smirk and the comment, "The courts are always available.")

The other guy took a more balanced approach, but was trying to please both sides.

I have absolutely no problem with the Bible being taught in public schools, none at all, but it would have to be taught objectively. Is there anyone out there who supports this who could honestly say they believe it will be taught objectively in every classroom? Is the anyone who supports this idea going to acknowledge the slippery slope this poses? Is there anyone who supports this going to answer my questions?

How would you feel if a non-Christian taught the course? How would you feel if the Bible really was taken objectively? How would you feel if tough questions were asked, and inconsistencies talked about? Could you honestly sit there and say if the Bible was taught objectively in schools at least *50%* of Christians would be angry as hell?

After all, how many Christians want to have lessons titled, "The Mark of Cain, how the Bible helped fuel the KKK and Racism in America", "The Rise of Hitler and the Nazi's, how the Bible helped fuel anti-Semitism around the world"... and the list can go on and on.

[Finder]

9. Bible should be used in Public Schools...

in Literature/language classes, comparative studies, social studies, etc...

My children attend public school and from middle school on up have used the bible as a source in the mentioned courses. Mind you, not in a theological sense which would not be--and should not be--permissable.

Fundies do NOT want the bible used in the above manner.

[no_hypocrisy]

14. The issue is the prospect of the proverbial slippery slope and where

does a Board of Education draw the line as far as what is IMPERMISSIBLE Bible study.

How about these proposals:

* The Bible: Fact or Fairytale?

* The Bible: Blueprint to Intolerance toward Women, Gays, Witches, etc.

* The Bible: Examples of Violence as a Means of Justice

I somehow do not believe that the community in general would endorse the use of THEIR Bible in this manner with their tax dollars. And if this contention is valid, then the objections of parents who wish for the churches and Sunday schools to step up with creative Bible classes should be respected and the Bible only allowed as recreational reading by individual students.

To respond to the Sunday Morning propositions of teaching the Bible as a companion to western literature, I would recommend that when a biblical allusion appears in say Shakespeare or art history, just touch on the basic plot of the allusion like one would do with a Greek myth that oftentimes also appears in western literature. But, no special class for Greek mythology or the Bible in public schools.

[ikojo]

15. Critical thinking skills are not taught in American

public schools, so why do people assume these same public schools will teach critical thinking when it comes to the bible?

I think before a sectarian view of the bible is shoved down the throats of American public school students, there should be a push for media literacy classes beginning in middle school. Teach kids to critically view the media to which they are exposed for many hours each day.

[niallmac]

19. Conformity 101 is a pre requisite for graduation from U.S. public

schools.
Indeed, why do we think suddenly the Bible of all things would be studied objectively in this
country of protestant puritan origins?
I assume that the Torah, Koran and all the writings Hindu and Buddhist faiths etc
would be studied as well. I assume the pagan origins of the Bible would be discussed
and those who prefer to see the Bible as pure myth would have the freedom to
speak their mind in that Tennessee public school yeah? Right.

[Golden Raisin]

17. If it's a public school supported by public tax dollars

there should be no bible (other than possibly as comparative literature) and no religion (other than historical). If its a private school, supported by private funds, they can teach whatever they want. They can set up an altar to Zeus or Snoopy the Beagle in the school auditorium if that's what they want. I'd like to see some of these so-called "christian" bible-thumpers' reactions if someone else demanded that the Koran, Torah, Hinduism or witchcraft be taught to their children in public schools. Religion is for private homes, PRIVATE schools, churches, mosques & synagogues --- it is not appropriate in public, tax-supported venues. But the fundies want it (and THEIR version of it!) all over, written into law(s) and in everyone else's faces.

[Bridget Burke]

36. The Bible is ALREADY being taught in Public Schools.

The older curriculum uses the King James Version--which is taught to be literally true. This approach has been shown to offend all but the Religious Right breed of Protestant.

The more recent curriculum uses sections of different translations & is designed to appeal to all Christians. The Old Testament part has also been approved by Jewish scholars.

I, too, think the schools have more pressing concerns--even if this is taught as an elective. But there are pressure groups out there working toward Bible classes--generally supporting the worse version.

Where's your pressure group?

[rman]

20. ah, those "neither left nor right" media again. nt

[NYCGirl]

22. First of all, it was not "60 Minutes"; the show is "CBS Sunday Morning."

And it was about teaching the bible AS LITERATURE.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/16/sunday/main1501195.shtml

In his book, "Misquoting Jesus," he points out the Bible has been copied, and translated and interpreted for thousands of years in literally thousands of different ways.

"I look at the Bible as a very human book written by human authors, many of whom were religious geniuses, who had brilliant things to say, but nevertheless were completely human and error prone," Ehrman says.

Not everyone may agree with that, but if you're going to look at the Bible as a piece of literature then fallibility is part of it, too.

Ehrman concludes, "We're not dealing with a text that just kind of descended from heaven one day in April. We're dealing with a text that has a very long history and a lot of complications and there are places where we simply don't know what the text originally said."

[Meldread]

27. Sorry, I don't watch much TV.

I stopped watching a lot of TV a long time ago. I happened to be flipping threw, saw it was coming up and decided to watch.

I realize it was about teaching the Bible as literature, but that doesn't change anything. Can you honestly say in every classroom across the country there won't be teachers who overstep their bounds? That there will not be teachers who use it to promote Christianity?

[NYCGirl]

29. "60 Minutes" is on in the evening. So we should stop teaching a perfectly

good (and interesting) subject because of some bad teachers?

[Meldread]

31. Who said it was a "perfectly good" subject to teach in the first place?

I have no problem with the Bible being discussed in schools, my problem is with the people doing the discussing. How many teachers do you know who will honestly sit in front of a class and have a honest discussion about the Bible? Hell! We can't even agree to teach Evolution in our schools, despite the fact that it is science - they are trying to inject their religion there too.

How many Christians honestly want their religion dissected, pulled a part bit by bit and analyzed under a microscope? That's being objective. We do that to Shakespeare. We analyze what he wrote, what he said, what he meant, and how people of the time understood it. Who wants to analyze the root cause of anti-semitism and how the Nazi's used that to gain power? Who wants to analyze the KKK and how they used Christianity to fuel racist tendencies across the country? How many Black Christians in the classroom will feel comfortable with that? How about the Inquisition and the Crusades? How about analyzing the inconsistencies?

You see, that is the problem. Those types of things won't be touched upon because they are controversial, because it would offend Christians. So what is left, then? You get a watered down course of "faith affirming" rhetoric, something with no substance but a lot of fluff.

Face it, this is just an attempt to weasel the Bible into Public Schools. That's all it is, it has nothing to do with legitimate learning or teaching. That's simply a fact, and you and I both know – as well as anyone who is even remotely honest – that this is just going to be used to indoctrinate students.

[NYCGirl]

33. If it is taught as literature, all those ideas will be discussed. That's

the idea of the course. If someone is offended by that, it's their choice to not take the course.

I know of many teachers who could discuss this honestly.

[Meldread]

34. Then you've obviously are very naive.

If your name is any indication, then you obviously have no idea about what it's like to grow up in a Red State. Why don't you come on down here to Virginia, and I'm sure your opinion will change. Hell I can give you the e-mail of my local Newspaper Editor who is also running for Mayor of my town. I'm sure he can fill you in on why Christianity should be made the official Religion of the United States, why prayer should be mandatory in schools, and how -anyone- who thinks differently isn't an American.

Once you've had the chance to meet the people pushing this agenda, I'm sure your mind will change.

[NYCGirl]

35. Actually, I'm originally from San Francisco, and no, I've never lived in a

red state. But I know lot of people from those red states, and they're all very bright and quite sane, I assure you. Like the proverbial squeaky wheel, the nutjobs make the most noise, but they're in the minority — a small but very noisy one.

[ldf]

23. the bible should not be allowed anywhere NEAR

our public school system.

NO WAY!

you want your kids to read that crap, do it at home, or in your church.

but we all know that is not what its about.

being taught as literature is just a thinly veiled excuse.

ONLY if the TRUTH about the bible was taught, in a LITERATURE class, showing the creator as the spiteful, vengeful, murder supporting, discriminating, incest tolerating, slavery tolerating, entity that could only come up with a "grand plan" revolving around death (look at a nature show, isn't it aweinspiring when you see a beautiful creature of nature being EATEN ALIVE because that is just the "system") because he (he, because god obviously had a penis, so he is the "father" and is therefore the basis for all the "little woman needs to be submissive" crap, BUT does he sit to pee?), he was so enraged with his creations (adam and eve) because they used the brain he gave to them to question, THEN, after he tossed them out of eden (for questioning) and they begat WITH EACH OTHER, poplulating the world, he then created one of the longest running hate campaigns between his, allegedly, "chosen people" and their relatives, the arabs, because he could not, or would not, use his all seeing crystal ball (because you KNOW he knows EVERYTHING that WAS or WILL BE), so the tribes of israel are the legitimate family, and the arabs are the bastard offspring of the handmaiden, but god apparently didn't see that, or, even more likely, knew that THAT little plot twist was necessary for him to base all the rest of the CRAP passed off as christianity.....

GEEZ! Don't Get Me Started......

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[saltpoint]

24. Didn't see that one, but I wish that program would hire some really

good interviewers.

I like Bradley the best of the bunch, I guess.

[NYCGirl]

25. The report was not on "60 Minutes". It was "CBS Sunday Morning".

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/16/sunday/main1501195.shtml

[saltpoint]

26. O hell. You can tell I'm not a steady tv watcher.

'Appreciate the heads up. Thanks.