Bush, Rummy, and the Retired Generals - new cartoon!

[Neil Lisst]

Bush, Rummy, and the Retired Generals - new cartoon!

This one is fresh off the grill. We just cooked it and put it up.

These are actual quotes from the retired generals.

[MadMaddie]

1. This is a great cartoon....thanks...

[Neil Lisst]

2. all 8 quotes are direct quotes

[Late Slip]

22. Gen. Shinseki should be in there too although

he isn't with the current crop of those speaking out against Rumsfeld. He "retired" after he gave testimony that hundreds of thousands of troops were required to do the job.

Here's an anecdote, Rumsfeld didn't even go to Shinseki's retirement function. Nice.

[Neil Lisst]

23. yeah, he was the guy who stood up and really took the heat

and got treated like crap by Team Bush

[Jai4WKC08]

32. About Shinseki...

There is a very interesting article in this week's Newsweek (well, interesting me as retired military anyway). Gives some of the background on Shinseki as an intro to discussing the whole situation. As you can see, Shinseki took probably the most heat for speaking honestly while on active duty (worth noting when you hear the Bush-defenders talking about how the other generals should have said something before), but has been unwilling to raise his voice in criticism since.

Gen. Eric Shinseki, former chief of staff of the Army, says he is "at peace." But reached last week, he didn't sound all that peaceful. In the winter of 2003, alone among the top brass, Shinseki had warned Congress that occupying Iraq would require "several hundred thousand troops." Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his deputy, Paul Wolfowitz, had rewarded Shinseki for his honesty by publicly castigating and shunning him.

Last fall, Shinseki went to the 40th reunion of the class of '65 at West Point. It has been reported that his classmates were wearing caps emblazoned RIC WAS RIGHT. Last week NEWSWEEK e-mailed Shinseki to ask about the reports. Shinseki called back to say he had heard "rumors" about the caps. But, NEWSWEEK asked, wasn't he there? "Well," he replied, "I saw a cap."

Shinseki, who has retired to Hawaii, was clearly uncomfortable with the role of martyr. He had no desire to join the chorus of retired generals calling for Rumsfeld's resignation. He was circumspect about criticizing Rumsfeld at all, but he seemed to be struggling to disguise his feelings. He pointedly said that the "person who should decide on the number of troops is the combatant commander"—Gen. Tommy Franks, and not Rumsfeld.

Some critics have argued that Shinseki should have banged on the table, pushed harder to stop Rumsfeld from going into Iraq with too few troops. How does Shinseki respond? "Probably that's fair. Not my style," said the old soldier, who nearly lost a foot in combat in Vietnam. There was, he added cryptically, "a lot of turmoil" at the Pentagon in the lead-up to the war. Was that Rumsfeld's fault? "Partly," said Shinseki. Did Rumsfeld bully General Franks, the overall invasion commander? "You'll have to ask Franks," said Shinseki, who indicated that he had talked long enough. "I walked away from all this two and a half years ago," he said.

The former four-star general appeared to be torn between his strong sense of duty and an uneasy conscience...

...it is fair to say that Rumsfeld's shabby treatment of Shinseki—the secretary did not bother to attend the retirement ceremony of the Army chief of staff, whose replacement was leaked 14 months before his term was up—had a chilling effect on other officers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12335719/site/newsweek/

Neil, please see my post below about Clark. If I'd been thinking, I'd have posted it here instead. D'oh! ;)

[Neil Lisst]

that's a great article! I'm glad to hear about the caps.

I'll go looking for that other post you mention.

[Neil Lisst]

34. that's a great article! I'm glad to hear about the caps.

I'll go looking for that other post you mention.

[Jack from Charlotte]

57. Zinni said Rumseld's failure to attend Shinseki's retirement ceremony was

"shameful." Said he'd never forget it and never forgive Rumsfeld. Heard him on a radio interview say that the other day.

[Jai4WKC08]

58. Republicans are vindictive

Sometimes in the most petty ways. Sometimes a lot more.

Repub SecDef Cohen didn't attend Clark's retirement dinner either. But Shinseki did. :)

[Neil Lisst]

63. Bush and Rummy don't understand there are limits to disagreeing

[quiet.american]

3. Excellent job of putting this in perspective. n/t

[Neil Lisst]

4. How many times has Bush said "I listen to my commanders on the ground?"

These guys were his commanders on the ground.

But he uses 4 retired Air Force generals to counter the 6 Army and Marine generals.

So, 4 generals who have never been in charge of troops ON THE GROUND IN IRAQ are the ones who are criticizing the guys who WERE there.

[quiet.american]

6. This is definitely one of those deer-in-the-headlights points.

I would love for a "journalist" to put the point raised in your 'toon to Bush. It would guarantee one of his monumental pauses/deer-in-the-headlights moments.

[Neil Lisst]

8. Don't you wish one journalist would ask "Why do you lie so much?!"

[quiet.american]

13. And we know he would "disassemble" even in answering that! n/t

[Neil Lisst]

33. I think he would lose it, if challenged like that.

He might even get ugly.

[Heywood J]

31. Yes

"Why do you lie so much? Is it pathological or is it just contempt?"

[Neil Lisst]

40. Mister President, are you a demon from Hell, a spawn of Satan?

the question that is on my mind

[calimary]

7. Which begs the question - IF he really is listening to his commanders

on the ground, WHY is this war still being prosecuted in such a cockamamie way? Why are we still doing the wrong things? Why are we still losing? These were commanders on the ground and he clearly didn't pay much attention to what they said - if, indeed, they actually did press their case about it. It makes me wonder what kind of case they pressed? How hard did they try to get their point across - while the troops serving farther down the foodchain were being systematically fed into a meatgrinder?

Hey, Neil - I'm up, elsewhere here in GD-P.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2575613

BTW - ANOTHER terrific cartoon! K&R!

[Neil Lisst]

10. but he really isn't listening to them!!

he keeps voices of disagreement far away

[DoYouEverWonder]

12. Sure he listens

as little as possible.

[Neil Lisst]

14. he HATES listening to anyone else!

[oda]

5. amazing

great work neil

[Neil Lisst]

9. so glad you like it, oda

we have our favorites, too, and I really like this one.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Boy, isn't that true!

In one ear and out of the other!

[Neil Lisst]

52. but he listens to his commanders on the ground!!

which is why the air force guys are the ones who still support Bush

[nickshepDEM]

15. Great toon.

[Neil Lisst]

36. thanks and thanks for reading!

[nickshepDEM]

16. Question... Have all of these Generals actually served on the ground in

Iraq?

[Mr_Spock]

17. I was wondering this myself today and Al or Randi said the answer was yes

They all has served in Iraq - though don't quote me on this...

[Neil Lisst]

18. some have, some haven't served on the ground in Iraq

I can't tell you which are which, but every story about them mentions their history.

here's Newbold
http://www.usmc.mil/genbios2.nsf/0/8C0F7A68BFF2272185256808006EA9AA?opendocument

[Jai4WKC08]

30. Not all, but most

Swannack and Batiste were division commanders in Iraq. Batiste was even offered a third star and a very high position in Iraq... I think it was ground component commander, or maybe deputy in Central Command; he chose to retire instead.

Eaton was in charge of training Iraqi forces in Iraq.

Newbold was the J-3 (Joint Staff principle in charge of operations) when the decision to go to war was being made. He chose to retire rather than participate in the execution of an unnecessary war.

Zinni was in charge of Central Command before Bush took office in '01. He also served as Bush's "special envoy" to the Middle East, but mostly working the Israel/Palestine issue, I think. But I don't think he's been in Iraq, unless it was during Desert Storm. Still, he's very familiar with the situation before and after "Mission Accomplished."

Riggs was involved in providing logistical support to the force in Iraq, but I don't think he ever served in country.

About the cartoon:
I'm wondering why Wes Clark was left out--he's been calling for Rumsfeld to go since 2003. Seems to me, since we got a Democratic general who saw the need before any of the others, we ought to make some points for the Party with it. But good job otherwise!

If anyone wants to hear Clark's full explanation of what these generals are saying and why, he has a podcast called "Integrity and Dissent," out as of about two days ago. Very good for passing along to any of your friends or family who may not "get it." http://securingamerica.com/clarkcasts

[Neil Lisst]

35. I wanted to use the 6 who were in the news right now.

Clark and a couple of others are not NEWS. This is big news, because some of these guys were commanders on the ground in Iraq under Bush. That really sets them apart.

Look at who the pres got as his primary defenders - 4 retired AIR FORCE generals. Bush has been great for the air force. They get to test all their gizmos and battle test all their people, but except for the heavy bombing periods, their roles in conflict are much more limited.

It's the Army and Marine generals who see the folly of Bush and Rummy in Iraq.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. great stuff neil! K&R

Which General said "I'm tired of burying his mistakes?"

I was promoting the sultry Hanoi Jane on the General-ly freeper ruled by neocon board and boy did I get bashed yesterday... The friggin' VA sent me some crap about re-filing to prove how fucking poor I am instead of my pain pills thanks to repuke ideas from this year and I was hurting and pissed. Good stuff Neil. thanks

[Neil Lisst]

21. "I'm tired of burying his mistakes!"

I don't recall which one, but one of them did say that.

Hell, Batiste was there in 2003-2004.

These 6-7 guys are emblematic of hundreds who are thinking like them.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

29. i bet even the neocons are finally realizing the absurdity of this killing

and it's not for freedom, it's for profit

[IChing]

20. One of the best yet, deserves national recognition

Just using their own words.


Brilliant.

[Neil Lisst]

41. thanks, that's good to hear

I keep hoping one of ours will get picked up nationally.

This one is really good, and my partner who draws all these in Canada drew this one perfect the first time. Isn't that amazing?

I love the ones like that.

I sent him about 3 photos of each general, to give him a really good feel for how they look, and to track the photos seen now in print media.

[stephenharper]

24. Bush's Blunder continues ...

... listening to the wrong sources. Even when he has good intel, he goes the other way.

[Neil Lisst]

51. welcome to DU, stephen harper!

[annabanana]

25. right on point, as usual. . . . . . eom

[Neil Lisst]

43. annabanana! I thought saw you in here.

Thanks. We have cut back to 3 a week, and we're putting more into each one.

[FSogol]

26. Hey Neil, your best one yet. Keep up the good work. n/t

[Neil Lisst]

28. thanks, that's great to hear!

appreciate your reading it

[StaggerLee]

27. The boy king listens only to his fascist handlers

Great toon.

K&R

:dem:

[Neil Lisst]

44. speaking of great tunes, Stagger Lee is one such

ever hear the Righteous Bros version?

Bill Medley and Bobby Hatfield.

[StaggerLee]

47. Wow ,no!

I haven't. I didn't know there was one by them. I'm gonna have to check that out.

:hi:

[Neil Lisst]

49. it was made famous in 1959 by ...

Here's the story ...

THE ST. LOUIS GLOBE DEMOCRAT, 1895: "William Lyons, 25, a levee hand, was shot in the abdomen yesterday evening at 10 o'clock in the saloon of Bill Curtis, at Eleventh and Morgan Streets, by Lee Sheldon, a carriage driver. Lyons and Sheldon were friends and were talking together. Both parties, it seems, had been drinking and were feeling in exuberant spirits. The discussion drifted to politics, and an argument was started, the conclusion of which was that Lyons snatched Sheldon's hat from his head. The latter indignantly demanded its return. Lyons refused, and Sheldon withdrew his revolver and shot Lyons in the abdomen. When his victim fell to the floor Sheldon took his hat from the hand of the wounded man and coolly walked away. He was subsequently arrested and locked up at the Chestnut Street Station. Lyons was taken to the Dispensary, where his wounds were pronounced serious. Lee Sheldon is also known as 'Stag' Lee"

FOLLOW UP: Billy Lyons died from his wounds, and Stag Lee was tried for this killing. The first trial ended in a hung jury amidst major political controversy. He was convicted in the second trial, served time, and died in the nineteen-teens.

THE SONG: This real-life incident soon became legendary in the South, and moved into song -- and down the river to New Orleans, where the killer's name became, variously, Stagolee, Stag-O-Lee, Stackolee or Stack-A-Lee. The latter was the spelling on one of the earliest recorded versions by Frank Hutchison in 1927, and on a Top 10 R&B hit in 1950 performed in two parts by a New Orleans singer in the Professor Longhair style.

Born Leon T. Gross, he was known professionally as Archibald (and sometimes as Archie Boy). His musical re-telling of the story might have been the end of the line chart-wise for old Stag, if it weren't for the Korean War.

http://www.bobshannon.com/stories/Stagger.html

[StaggerLee]

54. Americana at it's finest!

Thanks for the link. I can never get enough background on the legend itself.
I had not idea that the the Lloyd Price version was originally a flip-side. Neat.

[Hosnon]

37. One question and I know this will be brought up:

Were these statements made before retirement?

Bush says he listens to his commanders on the ground. If they are retired, they are not on the ground.

[Neil Lisst]

39. they were said AFTER retirement

However, they say they gave similar advice inside, but that Rummy was very unfriendly to anything but his own ideas.

[Hosnon]

42. Ah. I heard (from Rushbo so not sure if accurate) that the Code of

Military Justice/Conduct (not sure which word goes there) forbids such questioning while in the service.

If that premise is true: They didn't say it, did and shouldn't have (the Right will call for heads) or did when not "on the ground."

Thoughts? I just know this is how the scenario will go down so we might as well hash it out to its end.

[Neil Lisst]

45. UCMJ - Uniform Code of Military Justice

And that's right. If you are active duty and you speak out against the chain of command above you, you can be drummed out for that.

[Hosnon]

46. Thanks for the information. Quick research: Is it Subchapter X, § 888,

Art. 88?:

CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

If so, what is the appropriate definition of "contemptuous?"

[Neil Lisst]

48. it's anything they say it is!!

contemptuous, that is

imagine a jury of 2/3 officers and 1/3 enlisted, and you're enlisted ...

Military Justice is an oxymoron. There ain't no justice in military justice.

[TheBaldyMan]

53. They can submit military advice, not that it was listened to ...

The Pentagon was filled with officers advising on things like troop levels needed before going into Iraq and the advice was ignored. The PNACers started getting all huffy about the civilian administration having precedence over military authority.

If an officer was thought to be unsound that said officer was found other duties. The result was officers could shut up or put up. Little wonder there are so many PO'd Generals gunning for Rummy now.

Even now preferment is more a case of how well you can brown-nose the administration and indulge in groupthink.

[0007]

38. Good!

[Neil Lisst]

50. thanks, 0007. I'll use this to kick it up.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

55. Hi Neil...

Do you remember posting some of the words to I AM A ROCK on my anti-war vigil thread yesterday? I DO REQUESTS! Check it out: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2579239

[Neil Lisst]

59. yes, I remember it

how about this

In the clearing stands a boxer
And a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders
Of ev'ry glove that layed him down
Or cut him till he cried out
In his anger and his shame
"I am leaving, I am leaving"
But the fighter still remains

[AzDar]

56. Wow! Very effective..... n/t

[Neil Lisst]

60. thanks, we're working on a fresh one to be up in 6 hours

[MissMarple]

61. Well, that just about sums things up. Thanks. n/t

[Neil Lisst]

62. thanks, we're working on one to insert into the line up ...

about the Decider!