"Charged With Raping A Stripper"

[Stinky The Clown]

The facts are as yet unknown, and my opinions on the case are like those of everyone else .... meaningless.

But WHY, for the love of all that is good, must the news readers use the term 'stripper' with a decidedly perjorative tone, when referring to the woman who claims she was raped by members of the Duke lacrosse team?

Referring to her a 'stripper' can serve only a few purposes - each of them worng.

1 - get your head to turn when the newsreader uses the term - sensationalism=ratings

2 - to influence public opinion

3 - pure tabloidism (see also, point 1)

How about 'Charged with raping a black woman?"

or "Charged with raping a college student?

or, for the best framing "Charge with Rape"

[SmokingJacket]

1. Exactly: as if "stripper" mitigates it. GRRRR! nt

[watrwefitinfor]

2. For the same reason they always point out that she is a black woman.

As if saying, if anyone is asking for it more than a stripper, it's a black stripper.

Wat

[ThomCat]

80. Absolutely right.

Everyone needs to know that she's black and she's a stripper. So that way almost everyone will know that she deserved it.
:eyes:

[bullimiami]

3. If being a stripper (which is legal) is a morality issue then hiring a

stripper must be equally as troublesome.

There would have been no stripper there if they hadnt hired her.

[Yupster]

12. I guess I'm a victim of a generation gap, but

the idea of college students hiring a stripper does seem totally amazing to me.

So does the idea of a college student dancing naked in front of 40 other drunk students.

I guess culture has passed me by, but doesn't anyone have any morals anymore?

[TheBaldyMan]

23. It has more to do with how young women fund their education nowadays

if society was really committed to checking this kind of behaviour maybe universal funding for further and higher education would be a start. Pay students' fees and a basic living allowance. If a country values education in a high-tech, high-wage professional 21st century economy that would seem to be a minimum requirement.

[Yupster]

25. I don't buy that

People have been funding their education for generations without shaking their naked ass in front of drunk teenagers.

I'm an old geezer, but that seems immoral to me.

I know I have no right to impose my morals on anyone else, and I'm not trying to. But it still seems like everyone involved is doing wrong.

I sure wouldn't be happy with my daughter naked being hooted at by a bunch of drunks, and I sure wouldn't want my son being one of the drunks either.

[TheBaldyMan]

83. I agree that is is an unhappy situation but where else are you going

to make enough money to live off in such a short time? Personally I think that students should be paid a minimum subsistance allowance so they can spend their time studying, not waiting at tables and cleaning offices to pay their way.

The alternative is working a full time job AND studying, I know from personal experience that this is impossible and had to pack my full time job in and carry on with my studies. I usually ended up flat broke and sleeping on somebodys couch in the middle of the exam season. Not the best way to achieve academic success.

If a young woman is presented with a job that allows her to work for a few hours a week, pay tuition, her bills and study full time it must be very tempting. This is especially true of women from poor backgrounds who can't live off a trust fund for 4 years, they have to work.

[LetsGoMurphys]

27. In my experience there aren't a lot of women stripping in college

I am fresh out of Temple University which has students from every walk of life. There were no strippers trying to pay tuition when I was there. People took work study jobs. Chris Rock was correct about the stripper myth. "I haven't heard of a college that takes dollar bills. I haven't seen any clear heels in biology. I haven't ever gotten a smart lap dance." Maybe I am wrong though, just my experience.

[ieoeja]

32. I would say you are wrong.

I knew plenty of college kids who worked as strippers back at Indiana University in the early '80s. Assuming you did not know each and every individual at Temple, I would be surprised if there weren't a few.

Mind you, this is probably a fraction of a percent of the guys and gals in college.

[LetsGoMurphys]

33. I'm not sayin there weren't any at all

but this isn't how girls are making their money because they have no choice. Most college girls would laugh at such a suggestion.

[ieoeja]

36. Yes you did.

"There were no strippers trying to pay tuition when I was there."

Unless I'm mistaken, "were no" and "weren't any" are synonymous clauses.


All of the college strippers I knew were doing it as much for the kicks as for the money. Though they would also qualify that by pointing out that the money was VERY good. Far better than they could get delivery pizzas like yours truly did in college.

I've known several strippers over the years. About one-third of them were the burnt out druggie stereotype. The vast majority were just regular folks making money at a job they enjoyed.

And there was one my wife and I hung out with for a time who was really into the artistry of it. She held most of her peers in complete disdain. I tended to agree with her. I've never hung out at strip joints, but I was dragged into one or two by friends, and have been in bars where a party hired a stripper. And I do have to say that I prefer an average looking woman doing a good job stripping than a beautiful woman doing a bad job.

[LetsGoMurphys]

42. I meant in my experience

I thought I made that clear in the subject line. If not, I apologize. I do still believe it is a rare occurence.

[TorchTheWitch]

61. and after laughing

trot off to work at the strip club. We don't advertise this, and most strippers vehamently hide it from those who know them. I'm the rare exception that doesn't care who knows.

[pthalomarie]

78. it depends on where the university is

A city-based university is more likely to have students employed as strippers than a rural or suburban university. Temple's in Philadelphia and has some, but Penn State is in farm country and has none.

[TorchTheWitch]

60. Hate to burst your bubble but

I strip in Philly. A huge percentage of the strippers I work with are college students. Most of them go to Temple. I guarantee you that you were attending classes along side a LOT of strippers... DOZENS. And these are just from the 3 clubs I rotate through. Considering there's dozens of clubs in and around Philly with a big percentage of strippers attending college and then all the strippers that do only outcall and attend college. Dude, there are a WAY lot of strippers at Temple.

Did you think we had it tattood on our foreheads or something? That these women go to class dressed up in cutsy outfits and their 6 inch heels?

[TheBaldyMan]

84. I'd make it the new uniform ...

then again I am a dirty old man. ;)

[ieoeja]

34. What generation are you from?

Cause my parents, both in the late 60s, have enjoyed going to strip joints most of their lives. Used to hang out with a few of my high school teachers there. So unless your generation is far removed from theirs, I would say it has more to do with your lifestyle than your generation.

And I guess that by your reckoning my parents (and myself and it would seem a few of my HS teachers) have no morals.

Fact is, an awful lot of people in the West (European and European derived countries) do NOT see nudity as immoral.

[formernaderite]

35. does anyone find it odd that she worked for an escort service?

Am I very naieve? It used to be ahem...that men who hired escorts were actually hiring something else entirely. Has this changed?
I think this is an awful tragedy, and feel terrible for hoping these guys did it....if not and the identity facts seem to be fluid at the moment, it will be an awful blow to the community. The racial divide will not cope with this...both sides regardless of guilt or truth will not come together at the end of this. I've said before that this is unfortunately behavior that is too typical of lacross players....not rape, but binge drinking and too wild parties. I don't mean to generalize but that is the rep they have cultivated. I was definitely applying the guilty label to them early on...but have to say, now I'm not as sure.

[Sparkly]

64. It doesn't matter if she was an "escort"

The extent of their claim or complaint would be financial -- that they paid for something and didn't get it. (Yeah, let them try that!)

No matter WHAT they paid or WHAT they expected, nobody has a right to forego consent and attack another person's body, period.

I'm not saying anything about guilt or innocence in this case. I'm just saying that whether she was or wasn't an "escort" -- a woman who's willing to be paid a certain amount for certain sexual favors -- has NOTHING to do with it.

[formernaderite]

71. I understood that..

I'm wondering if that was the confusion....ie. the services that were assumed to be provided. I'm trying to build a scenario where she could argue the rape charge, particularly given the circumstances and that at least one of the guys seems to have some sort of time alibi.

[IndyJones]

41. Maybe the headline should read "Sinner male slut college student

charged with raping a black stripper??

[spooky3]

50. excellent idea--equal treatment!

[johnlal]

69. That's what gets me!

I'm sick and tired of the attorneys and parents of these young men coming on TV and whining that these "kids" are innocent. They are NOT innocent! Now, I would never want to see them wrongly convicted of a crime they didn't commit... but if they hadn't gone looking for trouble, none of this would have happened.
At the very least, they are guilty of hiring a young woman to perform a sexually provocative act for a group of drunk young men. This is not innocent behavior. It does not bring credit to Duke University or its athletic department. The adult entertainment industry is often associated with crime, drugs, prostitution and vice. By associating with someone from this walk of life, these men were taking a risk. They should have known better.
If the evidence shows that these men were not guilty of rape, then I hope they are exonerated. However, when they become politicians, ministers, or captains of industry, this scandal will follow them. And that seems fair to me.

[SlipperySlope]

4. For that matter...

Why refer to them as members of the Duke Lacrosse team?

Why not "white male college athletes"?
Or better: "local residents"?

Or how about: "Humans"?

Doesn't constantly referring to their race, college affiliation, and athletic status just make this case more sensational?

How about "Local citizens charged with rape of stripper"? How would that spin be?

Spin, spin, spin, it is all spin...

Fact: She is a stripper.
Fact: They are members of the Duke Lacrosse team.

Those are pretty much the facts that set this case apart from some random assault in some random village. Without those facts, we wouldn't even be hearing about this case.


Spin, spin, spin, it is all spin...

And it isn't helping to bring Natalee Holloway home.

[blondeatlast]

5. Simple: they are playing to prurient interest.

It sells and it influences public opinion.

Journalistic integrity is going the way of the dodo, and if we don't learn how to spot it, so will democracy.

[slater71]

6. Hannity said;

"They arrested two of the three people who raped this woman at Duke University."

Guilty already according to The Baby Jesus.

[0007]

18. Is that Sean Hannity you're talking about? And is he now

refered to as "The Baby Jesus?"

[driver8]

7. Good post. I actually heard a news report on the radio today

where the woman was referred to as a "student from UNC...(forgot the name)."

Strange thing is, I was surprised that they DID NOT mention that the woman was a stripper. The news report simply said that the woman was at a party with the Duke Lacrosse team.

[mzteris]

10. Not UNC

NCCU - North Carolina Central University.

It's the "black" school. Where blacks went when they weren't ADMITTED to White schools, doncha know.

It's still predominately black, but also serves the educational needs of other minorities and/or other monetarily challenged students.

[onenote]

45. which would make the story quite incomplete

If you didn't know anymore, and the story gave no further information, simply saying that the accuser was another student who was at a party with the Duke Lacrosse team would not be giving all of the information, namely that she was not just someone attending the party but someone hired to entertain at the party. I'm not suggesting that her being a hired stripper would in any way justify an assault against her, sexual or otherwise; however, it is nonetheless a fact that is necessary to have a complete picture of the story, as is the fact that those hosting the party were (a) students (b) at Duke (c)who were atheletes (d) on the Lacrosse team.

Otherwise, why not simply say: some woman somewhere has accused some men of raping her.

onenote

[Harper_is_Bush]

8. When I was a kid I attended a stag party with a stripper in attendance...

She did her show, all fine and dandy.

After her show word quickly spread that a raffle for a blow job would be held. It was held, and the winner recieved his prize.

I'm obviously not supporting rape, under any circumstances. I think my point is you cannot blame the media for making the point that the woman was a stripper.

[beam me up scottie]

11. She didn't raffle off a blow job.

Exactly what "point" do you think the media is making?

[Harper_is_Bush]

13. I don't think the media is making a point, they're just reflecting society

society has internalized that strippers attending stags/frats are possibly offering themselves up for sex. It is not an unfounded internalization.

The fact that this woman wasn't offering sex is beside the point I'm making.

I'm only explaining the societal reaction.

Don't blame the media for reflecting that.

[blondeatlast]

15. The press isn't supposed to do that--that's part of being objective.

The press should remain as objective as possible and we should call them on it when they don't.

The press should NOT be "reflecting" anything. Straight reporting does not call for emotional response--the headline is clearly attempting to do just that.

"Stripper" could properly be used in the story, there is no dispute that that is what she did at the party--but not the headline.

[Harper_is_Bush]

17. Reflecting society is something the press cannot avoid. n/t

[IndyJones]

40. Exactly!

[beam me up scottie]

19. I don't blame the media.

I blame the moronic, mouth breathing ignoramuses that make up their target audience.

You know, the kind of people who'd believe strippers normally give blow jobs.

[blondeatlast]

20. Wish I'd said that.

:thumbsup:

[beam me up scottie]

21. Thanks.

For a contrast, NPR just gave an update on the case, they called the woman a student and mother, who was also an exotic dancer, and accurately described the defendants as men, not boys.

I guess we're their target audience.

[spooky3]

58. that is refreshing! Thanks.

[Harper_is_Bush]

22. Anyone who doesn't believe many strippers often do give blow jobs...

for money is...well, an ignoramus.

[LetsGoMurphys]

29. A friend of mine who was in a frat got strippers

at their house. All of the strippers had sex in that house that night.

[IndyJones]

39. How does that issue relate to a woman being raped?

[Harper_is_Bush]

57. It relates to the media reporting that she was a stripper.

Which was the topic.

Since strippers will sometimes also hook, the sexual element is a natural part of the story.

The topic post questions why it's a "stripper" being raped instead of a "black woman" or "white woman" being raped. The reason it's a "striper" being raped is for reasons such as the fact I'm pointing out.

[lildreamer316]

56. I have never done so.

and I have been a stripper for 12 years.

[beam me up scottie]

59. You're in good company, apparently.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=971545&mesg_id=971679

[Harper_is_Bush]

66. You disagree with what I posted?

Or just trying to insult me in a cute way?

[TheBaldyMan]

24. that was a hooker not a stripper. n/t

[juajen]

48. Sometimes

We knew someone who DJ'd at a "Gentlemen's Club". Some of the girls gave blow jobs in the back room. However, at least half only stripped. The club bouncer was always having to protect the girls who said no. The dancers only girls were usually mothers, students, etc. just earning as much money as they could to support an education or children; the rest were usually, though certainly not always, addicts of one kind or another.

[spooky3]

9. Particularly when it is a part-time job (which is never mentioned)

to enable her to support her children and to finish a university education. Somehow I doubt that any of the Duke students would be described as "hamburger flippers" or "clerk at a clothing store".

[FrenchieCat]

14. My problem?

They are calling her a Woman on the news,
and calling her accusers "those boys".
They are all around the same age.

[blondeatlast]

16. Very interesting.

"Boys will be boys" when they attend college but she's a "stripper," not a woman/girl attending college.

"Boys" is subtly excusing their behavior and implying they are naive.

"Woman" implies that she was in some degree of control.

This is EXACTLY why we need to call the press out when they resort to such tactics.

Language matters and it does influence thinking.

[onenote]

49. Could someone post a link to a news article referring them as "boys"

I've seen articles quoting their lawyers referring to them as "boys" but you cannot blame the media for accurately quoting someone. I haven't seen any instance where the media has referred to them as boys.

onenote

[spooky3]

51. Actually, you can "blame them"...

This is a problem that MediaMatters and Tom Tomorrow, each in their/his own way, have pointed out with regard to other stories, such as when reporters quote a Bush administration official in the process of spinning, presenting one side, or outright lying, etc.--without question.

See for example:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200604070010

and

http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=20566

edited for clarity above, and to add the following:

I believe I heard Rita Cosby refer to them as "boys" but as that is MSNBC, I don't have a print link.

[onenote]

53. so let me get this straight

You are saying that in a news (not opinion) article that accurately describes the suspects as university students and accurately quotes their lawyer when he refers to them as "boys", the article should also have included a statement that they're not really "boys"?

onenote

[spooky3]

54. I think that's one way to handle it.

"It should be noted that the accused is age 19/21/89 (or whatever s/he is)."
"Legally, the accused is an adult."

Or leave out the "boys" quote. Surely lawyers talk enough for you to write a story without using every word.

Or make sure that you ask the other side to comment on the first lawyer's comment.

Or otherwise make sure that you have not misled with quotes about pertinent information, for reasons made clear by MediaMatters and Tom Tomorrow.

edited to add other ideas

[blondeatlast]

62. Exactly--the press has become notoriously LAZY, among

all it's other sins against our democracy.

"Leave out the "boys" quote" is the simplest way to have handled it, but all are respectable journalistic practices.

But that's too time-consuming, I suppose... (sigh)

Thanks for understanding and elaborating on my point.

[spooky3]

70. You're welcome. Maybe there would be less "confusion"

on this point if the lawyers were less subtle. Suppose I'm a defense lawyer who said "sex with a black stripper can't be rape because they all want sex with handsome white boys." Would ANY reporter or editor include that comment simply because it was true that the lawyer said it?

Then again, maybe not.

[onenote]

72. damn straight it would be reported...

[spooky3]

74. Somehow I doubt it--or if it were it would not be presented unchallenged.

If you don't like my example, which I did not make as extreme as it could be made, perhaps you can come up with a better one showing a huge distortion of facts or opinions in order to make one's side look better or help it achieve goals.

Reporters and editors constantly make decisions about what to include and what not to include if for no other reason than for because the length of articles have to fit available space. They do NOT feel compelled to include every remark, fairly or unfairly. Their job is to present an accurate picture of the facts rather than to simply repeat whatever BS an advocate wants to spew, without challenge.

Worse, there is extensive documentation (e.g., at MediaMatters, FAIR, etc.) that a media outlet may unconsciously or consciously fail to challenge the spinners in order to present an ACCURATE picture of the story.

[onenote]

76. quoting the lawyer referring to the suspects as boys

is hardly a "huge distortion of facts" when the article simultaneously describes the suspects as college students. SOme people may well think of college age males as "boys" while others think of them as men. Its really quite silly to think that the fact that someone reading an article that describes the suspects as university students and also quotes someone referring to them as "boys" will have their perception of university aged students twisted around. I can't count the number of times I've read articles about a criminal suspect that quotes the suspect's mother as saying "I can't believe my boy would do such a thing" -- even where the suspect is over 30 years old...

onenote

[Sparkly]

65. Rita Cosby

I don't have a link, but I remember H2S and I looking at each other, wondering aloud why she was the "stripper" and they were "the boys."

[onenote]

46. they're not around the same age

the two guys accused are 19 and 20. The accuser is 27.

I agree that these aren't "boys" (I view them as "young men"), but let's not go overboard.

onenote

[blondeatlast]

63. My husband is 12 years younger than me--We started dating when he was 19.

He considered himself an adult at the time and we were both in college.

I think he was completely possessed of adult faculties when he asked me out the first time, and he knew of our age difference.

We're celebrating 10 wonderful years next week, fwiw.

[Freddie Stubbs]

26. It puts things in context, just like

Two Pizza Delivery Drivers Violently Attacked, Robbed

POSTED: 10:38 pm EDT April 6, 2006
UPDATED: 7:40 am EDT April 7, 2006

ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- Pizza delivery men and women are using more caution, after two drivers in Orange County were attacked in the last four days.

Pizza Hut driver was robbed on Fort Apache court on Sunday, and just Wednesday night a Papa John's driver was beaten with a baseball bat outside a home on Gamboge Drive.

A pizza delivery man pulled up to the Gamboge Drive home and thought the man waiting in the driveway was the owner. But, as soon as he gave him the pizza, two men came up from behind and attacked him.

The victim got scratches on his arm and a mark on his back, all this for $25. And, the robbers left the pizza behind.

more: http://www.wftv.com/news/8519872/detail.html

[guidod]

28. None of this should be in the news anyway.

It's all sensationalistic crap.

[Stinky The Clown]

31. That's the **real** truth!

Mind candy and diversions in lieu of real news.

[LetsGoMurphys]

30. Here is why I dont have a problem with it

She wasn't going to that house to study with fellow students. She was going there to strip. The story takes place while she is on the job of being a stripper.

[IndyJones]

38. So if she had gone there to prepare their taxes, the story would

read - charged with raping tax accounant?

[LetsGoMurphys]

43. I would imagine so...

although as an accountant myself, we don't make house calls to frat houses. If the student came into my office and commited an atrocity against me, I believe that would be included.

[LetsGoMurphys]

44. as in this case

I think you have to pick your battles. When someone is performing a duty and an atrocity occurs, I believe that it will be mentioned.

Accountant Is Slain In Midtown Building
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE3D61139F936A35751C0A96E948260>

[IndyJones]

37. I agree. It is really pissing me off to read. A WOMAN was raped.

The charges should read - charged with raping a woman. If she'd been an accountant, would they say - charged with raping an accountant?

[TheWebHead]

82. correction

>>> A WOMAN was raped

A WOMAN was alleged to have been raped

[RedTail Wolf]

47. Geraldo's words of wisdom on this

Sometime it's not just the nuns that get raped it's the strippers too.????????? Maybe not word for word but close/

[newsguyatl]

52. well, to play devil's advocate

she WAS at the house as a STRIPPER -- and for no other reason.

she wasn't at the scene as a mother, a student, etc. She was there for one reason only, to make money stripping.

[spooky3]

55. In that case, you'll agree that this is a more appropriate headline

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2576769&mesg_id=2578349

because it describes the partygoers' behavior (regardless of whether a crime was committed).

[BoneDaddy]

67. Good points

I tend to find the media use it for titillation purposes primarily although secondarily I think it demeans the woman and insinuates that she is "less than others" by use of that term. It is a class based judgement that has real ramifications.

I remember watching "Dirty Dancing" this past weekend and it was the scene where Baby confronts Robbie with impregnating Penny the dancer. His response to her was "some people count and others dont'" or something to that effect. This is the mentality that is fostered by this type of language.

[GumboYaYa]

68. Most of the ones who use it as a perjorative term are the same ones

who are slinking off to strip clubs with fistfuls of dollars to prove their manliness. It's their own demons ultimately that they are fighting. Anyone who is comfortable with and embraces their own sexuality doesn't give a damn what others do.

[pthalomarie]

79. sorry, i don't buy that

no matter how comfortable one is with their sexuality, everyone gives a damn at some point. there are bound to some practices that you find too offensive to tolerate - bestiality, pedophilia, etc.

[GumboYaYa]

81. I really only care if it hurts another person or animal.

Both examples you gave are ones where compassion for the recipient of the behaviour dictates compassion (and hence revulsion with the act).
There is a difference.

Otherwise, get your freak on however you want. But then, I grew up in New Orleans where people aren't so hung up on sex as they are in the rest of the country.

[Radio_Guy]

73. Because that is her profession?

Just looking around at other news stories I see where a guy killed two caterers in St. Louis, another guy killed a nun in Buffalo, and a guy shot a bodega clerk in the Bronx. Did the victims have to be identified as caterers, a nun and a clerk? Probably not, but the media usually does that.

I would mention in the story that she was a black woman and a stripper. I think it leads to a motive. I think the rapists did it because she was black and because she was working as a stripper. They felt they could get away with it. I hope they are wrong and do not get away with it. Lessons need to be taught. But just because someone might think it is the victim's fault because she is a woman or a stripper does not mean you do not keep that information from the story. You can't idiot-proof a news story.

[mtnsnake]

75. "Why must the news readers use the term 'stripper'"? Because they know

by doing this, it puts more money into their (the media's) pockets than if they don't. The media doesn't really care one way or the other who is innocent or who is guilty. They just want to milk it and run with it for all it's worth, and they'll do it by making it as juicy sounding as possible.

People getting killed and maimed in Iraq every day? Boring.

Black female "stripper" going up against white jocks at a rich university? Can't possibly put a price tag on it. By referring to her as a stripper, it's supposed to get you wondering about her credibility, and that in itself adds another dimension to the story. I feel sorry for this girl with what they're doing to her. She probably feels like she's been raped on two different occasions, one by her assailants and one by the media.

[onenote]

77. or because its shorter than "exotic dancer" or escort service employee

Both of which are accurate descriptions of why she was in the house that night.

onenote

Again..the fact that she went to the house as a stripper/nude dancer/exotic entertainer/escort service employee doesn't justify anyone doing her the slightest harm, let alone raping her (if that is proven to have occurred in this case). But to ignore it would be to suppress information that is part of the story. Most of the stories I've read have also noted that she was a student, so its not like the there is a campaign to misinform going on.