Remember way back in ... 2002? Monday's cartoon

[Neil Lisst]

Can you remember what life was like just 4 years ago, before the congress caved on IWR, before Republicans took the Senate?

[Ignacio Upton]

1. 2002 Isn't further back enough for me

We still had an illegtimate President and post-9/11 climate of fear, and the drumbeat for Iraq was already escalating. Take me back to 1999 or 2000, please.

[Neil Lisst]

3. I want people to be able to use it, if they wish.

You know, pass around to people online, maybe send to friends and relatives to urge them to vote Dem this year.

[gristy]

2. You shouldn't mention that you're talking about 2002 until the last

frame. For better impact.

[Neil Lisst]

4. Interesting. You may be right.

[Neil Lisst]

18. See? I LISTEN to my constituency!! We used your suggestion, gristy

[Neil Lisst]

5. another 8 parter

[Jeffersons Ghost]

6. K&R DO YOU REMEMBER THIS VERY EARLY THREAD OF MINE NEIL?

Can you remember when people at DU were so damn mad that a right-wing looking headline was enough to make them attack like a pack of wolves, without even reading the copy? Back then it seemed Che was not only alive and well but also posting at DU. Now, I wonder who's posting here as people seem to forget far too fast only to remember the tyrant as fortunate.

Here's a double whammy time machine:

BUSH IS PHILOSOPHICALLY JUST AND DID NOT BREAK THE LAW

While the preceding remark seems outrageous, proof remains glaringly obvious in Book 1 of The Republic. I certainly do not expect anyone to take such an extreme statement on my word and I highly recommend readers compare my subsequent version of Instant Plato to any of the numerous translations online by simply searching for “Socrates and Thrasymachus.” Yes, you read correctly; it said INSTANT PLATO… welcome to America.

The Republic represents ten Books and each one originally fit onto a single papyrus scroll. Much of the writing consists of dialogue between Socrates and others interested in his notions. After a discussion about justice proceeds in a manner one might expect of Socrates, it takes a startling turn as Thrasymachus asserts that he knows what justice is and suggests the definitions others present are “nonsense.”

In Book 1 of The Republic, Thrasymachus says, "I declare justice is nothing but the advantage of the stronger" Robbery and violence generally represent injustices but when practiced wholesale by rulers becomes justice, because it serves the interest of those stronger rulers. In this approach, since the rulers do not obey the laws they impose on citizens, they are essentially unjust but still able to claim they are just, in a sense. At one point, Thrasymachus says, "You will understand it more easily, if you consider the perfect injustice; one which makes the unjust man most happy and makes those who are wronged but unwilling to be unjust miserable."

According to Thrasymachus, tyranny is a type of wholesale plunder but if a citizen commits theft or violence, they will face disgrace and punishment. When someone robs or commits atrocities against a whole nation and then reduces them to slavery, however, the people will eventually forget ugly names like theft or violence, only to call him fortunate, in spite of his unmitigated wrongdoing.

To Thrasymachus a tyrant is happy and fortunate because he breaks the rules of justice he imposes on the weak. What a weak citizen calls "justice" is essentially slavery and the strong do not obey those rules. Later, existentialists, like the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, will expand these notions to challenge traditional morality and Christianity.

After listening to Thrasymachus, Socrates refutes him: “If the weak can prevent the strong becoming a tyrant or taking what they want, they are in fact strong! As one might expect the voice of the master quiets Thrasymachus but at the beginning of Book 2, Glaucon and others renew arguments that anyone would be unjust, given the opportunity, if injustice leads to happiness. The students ask Socrates to prove that it is better to be just, since unjust individuals often enjoy happiness and rewards as just people suffer poverty and disgrace.

In much of the rest of The Republic, through the words of Socrates, Plato attempts to prove that just individuals are actually happy, while unjust people, such as tyrants, generally tend to be unhappy.

In five more years the ominous predictions of Plato will come to pass in America but we working slaves won't be able to afford computers or internet for me to remind them.

[Neil Lisst]

9. yes, I remember it. I still hate Plato!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

10. you're just confused by senility old man!

It's Play-dough and Pluto you dislike... lol

[Neil Lisst]

12. because Play-Dough comes apart and makes a mess

Clay won't do that as much.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

13. I've always enjoyed debating the finer points of pliable philosophy...

But discussions get so messy :kick: lol

[ninkasi]

7. I also remember

a time when there were no new "detention" centers being built by Halliburton in case of immigration emergencies, bird flu outbreaks, or...other, as yet unnamed government programs. I remember when I thought it would be great to meet fellow DUers in person, until I realized that the meeting might take place in one of those centers. Good work, as always, Neil.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

8. Can you even remember that far back now DU?

:kick:

[Neil Lisst]

14. thanks ninkasi! always good to see your name

[k-robjoe]

11. Kick n/t

[Neil Lisst]

15. thank you, k-robjoe

good to see readers and even better to get a kick, too!!

[Neil Lisst]

16. NOTICE: new cartoon HERE. old link is gone.

gristy,

We changed it as per your suggestion.

[Neil Lisst]

17. gristy, we changed frame one as per your suggestion

thanks!!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. I like it a bit better... this ALL is good stuff Neil

:kick:

[Neil Lisst]

20. it saves a little something for the last frame

this kind of cartoon communicates a political message, and I give up some humor to make it straight political. Frame four is all about voting in November and changing congress.

I wanted to make this one a cartoon progressives could send to their relatives who might be growing weary of Bush.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

23. you're willing to give up personal pride and perhaps a chance at fame....

because you're true-blue to the core Neil Lisst... Go ahead and admit it, you love America and want it back... I've caught you blue-handed.

[Neil Lisst]

21. Notice!! Link doesn't work in first post! But the cartoon is here!

[Neil Lisst]

22. hey, this thread looks familiar!

[Neil Lisst]

24. afternoon kick - NOTICE a new one is UP, just above

[Neil Lisst]

25. kicking for evening