JOIN THE NAVY and see the WORLD of crap with other ground troops in IRAQ

[Jeffersons Ghost]

I'll be the first to admit that back in '72 when I joined the Navy, it was my way of legally dodging the DRAFT. I wasn't all gung-ho like some of my Marine pals at Cecil Field, NAS. All I intended to do was keep them from strapping an M-16 onto my young ass and dumping me into some God-forsaken jungle.

On CNN yesterday, I heard that Navy personnel are now being retrained by the Army to serve as ground combat troops with the rest of the grunts. So they're running out of warm bodies to serve as cannon fader in Iraq, are they? Bush recently claimed that re-enlistment was way up, so why retrain the Navy?

You can bet the Republicans won't re-instate the DRAFT before November but after elections you young-uns better get ready to go die for a cause that is nothing more than a venture in run-away profiteering.

If right-wing readers still believe that fighting them there instead of here is a good reason for occupying Iraq, they need only imagine themselves as a citizen of Iraq. Imagine that your mother and father, who were totally innocent, were killed by American troops that have no options. In combat, it's shoot first and ask questions later, if you plan to live out a tour of duty.

If your friends and family were needlessly slaughtered would you become a terrorist intent on sneaking into America over an unprotected Mexican border in the very near future? Muslims are still pissed over the Crusades and Mid-Eastern land granted to the Jews after WW2. How long will it take them to forgive and forget Iraq?

[Divernan]

1. Bush cannibalizing Navy, Air Force & Coast Guard to feed war machine

in Iraq/Afghanistan. This has been going on from the beginning, starting with the Coast Guard, and I pointed this out on DU re the first Navy female to die in Iraq - blown up by an IED while driving a truck, for god's sake!

I did a master's thesis on the impact of McCarthyism on this country back in the 50's, and that alcoholic egomaniac (sound like someone in the WH?) ran amuk with no one in the Senate or House or Supreme Court to stop him. It was only when he started attacking high-ranking military officers as being godless pinko commies, that Eisenhower shut him down. Bush/Rumsfeld's war theories - light and cheap on the groundforces, big and costly for the military industrial/mercenaries - first gutted the Army; now they're expanding to the rest of the services. And the military, at last, is speaking out.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

4. do you know what happens when you put women in combat areas?

Especially areas where you sent criminals, fresh out of jail, because you reduced standards for who serves in the military?

Especially in Muslim countries where sex and prostitution is nearly non-existent?

Have you heard all the stories of American soldiers committing RAPE against their female counterparts?

[DinahMoeHum]

13. Well, well, well, Just what I've suspected for months!

RummyDummy and President BlowMonkey dare not officially call for a draft, so they'll just take some Navy and Air Force folks, give them rifles and some infantry training, and send them off to the combat zone.

Well, well, well.

:evilfrown:

[Stinky The Clown]

2. I'm right there with you on this

.... but this has been known for a while.

I was also right there with you on one reason for joining the Navy in the late 60s.

[hadrons]

3. "all gung-ho like some of my Marine pals at Cecil Field"

this will take the gung-ho out of any Marine:

'If you stand still, you WILL get shot at'
Speed is the rule for Marines in violent Iraqi city of Ramadi

Sunday, April 23, 2006; Posted: 7:23 p.m. EDT (23:23 GMT)

U.S. Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment patrol Ramadi. Slowing down is not an option.


U.S. Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment patrol Ramadi. Slowing down is not an option.

RAMADI, Iraq (AP) -- Weapons locked, loaded and ready, a U.S. Marine platoon runs through this troubled Iraqi city's war-wrecked streets, hurling yellow, gray and violet smoke grenades to shroud their path.

Pausing only to train gun barrels around corners or scan rooftops for insurgents, they bound across desolate roads lined with broken glass and charred cars -- and start running again.

Standing still is rarely an option in this insurgent-plagued metropolis beset by roadside bombs, rocket fire and, Marines here say, the worst sniper threat on the planet.

"Every time we go out, we run," said 2nd Lt. Brian Wilson, a 24-year-old platoon commander from Columbia, South Carolina. "If you stand still, you WILL get shot at."

....

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/23/iraq.ramadi.ap/index.html

Lucky your friends missed out on that, patrolling ON THE RUN

[Jeffersons Ghost]

7. I knew a few who just got back into the states and had PTSD

That stands for POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER! I still meet some at the VA today who will never sleep right again. I used to know one guy who couldn't stand to see children because he thought they might explode like in Nam. I wonder if they're attaching bombs to the young bodies of living children in Iraq yet.

BTW, that's a very good post, hadrons. Thanks

[Submariner]

5. I volunteered for submarine service

in 1966 because it meant another $75 a month in hazardous duty pay which amounted to a full car payment back then.

I went to the boats after a year in the surface fleet because I couldn't handle working for, and taking orders from, dumbshits (mostly lifers) that never got past the third grade. A high-school diploma was the minimum requirement for sub service.

So every time I reminisce about those days of an under-manned fleet, I can't help but think of that yellow-belly coward Tom DeLay when he said he could not get in the military because the minorities filled up the military and he could not get in. I don't wish him prison time, I want to see him run over by a truck and dragged until he is nothing but a skid mark.

I read a few weeks ago they were pulling Navy guys into Iraq to drive trucks, support type stuff, but re-training for combat? That shows how truly sick and desperate the Bushistas really are.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. " ............ until he is nothing but a skid mark."

I love you, man! :thumbsup:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

8. those US Nukes could rock underwater but we won't talk TOP-Speed

As an AW I know a little... They were the fastest, most silent subs on Earth before Toshiba sold technology for the screws to the Soviets. Let's farm out more production of Defense to foreign countries folks, like Republicans are doing now to save money on labor. We got that hazardous duty pay too because someone had to get in the air and protect our country from the Red Menace. DUCK AND COVER AMERICA! Then kiss your ass goodbye.

[Submariner]

17. I wasn't no stinkin' Glow-boater

:evilgrin: I should have clarified that. I was a Pig-boater }( To be a nookie-poo I would have had to ship over for 2 more years (6 yr commitment). Four long years was enough for me. Since the diesel-electrics were quieter than nukes at the time we would follow the Soviet boats as they left Havana or Murmansk and then our nuke fast attacks would take over and follow those noisy Russians everywhere so we could then pull in for supplies and liberty call. :beer:

[Captain Hilts]

22. Looks like Perch, you've shown me yours...

here's my dad's

[Submariner]

23. Mine was the USS Becuna SS-319, yours looks like

the Sea Robin SS-407 which was part of Squadron 8 at Groton with the Becuna (which is now a museum boat in Philly). I was an electrician doing a battery change over on the "Bobbin' Robin" in late '69 just before I got out. If that's the Robin, it was the fastest diesel boat out of Groton.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

32. shhhhhh he's coming....

"Do you think he heard me drop that wrench?"
"Naaa the sound of our FM 8 covered up the clank"

[Submariner]

33. Oh oh! Let's hide from the Airy plane

They won't look for us here.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

34. LOL

Too funny for words!

[DELUSIONAL]

9. This is not going to work . . .

I just can't imagine the Navy and Army working together -- or Sailors becoming soldiers.

There is a competition between the services -- and as a Navy brat we learned bad words for the other services along with "mommy" and "daddy". My dad retired from the Navy when I was in college, and he did make it past the third grade. In fact once in the military there is a program of continuing education -- so that most military personnel are always upgrading their education level. I don't think the military is pleased with the level of education of most new recruits. But I also think the military like to take in green dumb recruits and teach them the "Navy way". I know my dad was doing a lot of that -- making sure the line crew really did their job etc.

Also the Navy has been stretched -- to the point that civilians have been hired for ship board service to keep the fleet able to go to sea. Military jobs are being outsourced -- civilians doing jobs that have traditionally been done by military personnel.

Family life used to be bad enough with most dads gone for 6 months at a time -- now they'll probably be gone longer and return with PTSD because they will be doing a job that they DID NOT SIGN UP to do.

By the way the mid and lower ranks in the Navy mostly all hate Rummy -- I've never heard one good word said about Rummy by active or retired Navy. And now this bit of news will NOT be welcomed.

My dad was Navy Air -- and I live near a Sub-base -- active and retired military are thick as thieves in the area.

What is interesting is that when Clinton was Prez there was no fear at all to criticize him -- but with bushie there is a real fear instilled in everyone not to speak against him ever. I'll bet the same fools who bad mouthed Clinton wished they had him back to kick around again.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

12. again, I may be talking out of school but back when I joined the Navy

EVERYONE was required to have at least a High School Diploma or GED for that branch and GED only had a slight chance of acceptance.

[DELUSIONAL]

20. The sub service has a higher education requirement than

most other branches of the service. The high standards were probably due to one man: One of the officers detailed to Oak Ridge in 1946 assumed control of the Navy nuclear propulsion program (and kept control, until finally retired in 1982). Captain Rickover was a submariner and an engineer, with a passion for safety and an obsession for control. He was brilliant, and difficult – and made nuclear power a reality, not just in submarines, but in many major surface warships as well.

He also well-understood the role of the Congress in procurement decisions; his friends on Capitol Hill ensured Rickover's professional standing by assisting in a series of promotions, eventually to the four-star rank of admiral.
http://www.submarine-history.com/NOVAfour.htm

I wonder what Admiral Rickover would think of what's happening to his Navy?


For those enlisting at the start of WWII -- many were still in high school. Post WWII -- enlistment standards were much higher.

Way back when I was a high school counselor I remember that a high school diploma was required and a GED was accepted only if the kids tested well. Others with a better memory might remember different details.

Today I'd guess that either the standards have dropped or high school diplomas are given just to get the kids out the door. There is a lot of post enlistment education -- I've talked to some of the contract teachers working with new enlistees.

But then it all depends on who your daddy is -- I remember that bush scored something like 25% on a test - flight aptitude or some such. Of course that was the Texas Air National Guard . . .

Tests can be manipulated -- depending on how badly warm bodies are needed.

If memory serves me correctly -- the first mass IQ type test were given to WWI draftees. It's been years since I've had to know all this stuff.

[Captain Hilts]

21. NO ONE wants to see a sub sailor holding a rifle!

But that's what they're doing to supplement numbers of people available for security details, as they're being called.

It's WRONG! It costs a ton to educate bubbleheads then you send them to Iraq?

Oh, I forgot, Bush is getting rid of the sub force.

[sonsera]

10. I joined the Navy for

the same reasons as Jeffersons Ghost only it was in 1952, during the "forgotten war", one we might have to fight again. I was advised by many of my friends who served in the Marines & Army to join the Navy. I'm so old we didn't have any AW rate back then but I took an easy one, AK and learned how to "comshaw". Remember that J G?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

11. that was dads war and he had DOLPHINS on his chest

I'm still raking my brain on AK but it seems "comshaw" was into communications and procurement of supplies, which were not necessarily military in nature.

I was in Zumwalt's NEW Navy, where they issued uniforms suitable for selling ice-cream, instead of the classic cracker-jack.

I guess it's now called the NEW AND IMPROVED EXTRA-STRENGTH NAVY, reserved for children defense contractors, since sailors will be on the ground in Iraq. Those overpaid Halliburton employees can't be expected to stay in Iraq now that there is REAL fighting going on in that country.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. AK is the air version of SK

I was an SK2 when I got out.

Comshaw was a general term for 'procurement' outside the normal supply channels.

Admiral Elmo was just coming in as I was getting out. I never served when they threw out the dog bowls for the officer caps. I do remember everyone dissing Zumwalt saying he was a flaming bleeding heart liberal who even allowed :::gasp::: beards.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

16. yeah but those Chiefs weren't exactly in agreement with "new" navy policy

on beards and they always seemed to find a little hair or two out of regs on sailors bold (or dumb) enough to try wearing one.

[guidod]

14. I joined the Navy in 1966

to try and stay off the front lines in Vietnam. I went to boot camp in San Dioego and then was sent to Long Beach to wait for placement. There were 50 of us in a group and most everybidy there got shiore duty in Vietnam, I luckily got shore duty in Guam.

[Submariner]

19. Small world

I was in the Long Beach transient barracks in early '66 waiting for my ship to return from Nam, and then home ported there on the LSD-3 until October when I left for Grape Lakes A school. Remember the Nu-Pike and Tattoo-Judy? :o

[guidod]

27. Absolutely, I loved Nu-Pike.

I ended up on a floating drydock, the USS Richland AFDM-8, picking ships up out of the water for service and repairs. Several Destroyer Escorts came in with quite a list from being damaged in Vietnam. It was fun when the Nuclear Subs came in.

I wouldn't trade those 2 years in Guam for anything. The best two years of my life!

http://www.scripophily.net/lobebahoanda.html

[Jeffersons Ghost]

24. you do see the deference in what you describe and what's happening now...

Right guidon? With what's happening today, they're throwing away all that A-school training and fleet experience for political reasons. The 5 Generals that resigned were likely pushing for a draft to get enough man-power in Iraq to do the job.

[guidod]

26. I abdsolutely see what's going on today.

I couldn't agree with you more. I was merely pointing out that a lot of people, during the Vietnam war, joined the Navy thinking that they would steer free of the battle only to find themselves right in the middle of it. I agree, what these people are doing today is misleading, lying and shameful.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

29. if Dante had written about Recruiters...

He'd have placed them very deep in the Inferno where Satan could gobble them up like small sausages.

[guidod]

30. I agree, and great picture!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

31. speaking of pictures, tonight I need to hitch my anti-war wagon back up

The kerry petition will still be there but I want to do something different and unique with the graphics this time. Where's a muse when you really need one?

[BOSSHOG]

18. I joined the Navy in 72 as well

Went to Boot Camp in San Diego from October-December. Not only Sailors doing Soldier work, the Air Force will soon change their basic training to include handgun useage and more Army like tactics to take over the Army Mission of guarding Air Force Bases overseas. Isn't it great when we have an ignorant, arrogant, unprofessional commander in chief slowly destroying our military while being idolized by those amongst us who are religiously insane.

[stevekatz]

35. actually

As an active duty NCO in the USAF, the army hasn't been gurading AF bases overseas for many years, not since the Clinton years.. mid 90s

[bonzotex]

37. you are correct, except it's been longer than that...

From 1985 to 1999 when I was in, I went all over the world and never saw Army or Marine ground troops defending USAF airbases. In some joint operations, yes, in some places (Korea, Germany, Panama) Troops were nearby or shared bases, but the USAF always had their own security forces.

During vietnam the bases had to have Army or Marine troops to guard the perimeters, but USAF security guarded the flight lines and facilities.

The USAF has guarded their own bases since the 60s at least. Of course, in Iraq, the theat is so much greater.

Hang in there!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

39. Marines guarded NAS Jax, Cecil Field MJB and Mayport.

I don't know about the air force.

[bonzotex]

40. You bet...

Marines guard Naval and Marine Air Stations. USAF bases are guarded by USAF Security troops. Army guards their Bases. It really depends on which branch "owns" and commands the base. Here in the States, much of the security functions have been handed over to contractor rent-a-cops so the service members can be freed up to go to places like Iraq.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. In defense of Rumsfeld ........

..... Okay, I'll duck while everyone kicks my ass .......

Actually, there is a part of his plan that sorta makes sense if you stop to think about it.

Along with all his crap, he called for some interservice integration. I'm not sure of the specifics, but, essentially, he wanted to have a common command structure for multiservice task groups. Just as an example of how **I** understood it, an Army general might be tasked with a land invasion of some target. That general would have the ability to call in a Navy ship to provide shore bombardment or an Air Force or Navy Air wing to provide close air support. He could then order a Marine force to storm a beach and then send in his own Army guys to bolster the force.

If one holds that 21st Century conventional warfare will be fought with lighter, more mobile forces, this makes some sense. As a Roman Legion morphed into a Napoleanic army morphed into a civil war style battle changed into trench warfare, which became a 'modern' war in WWII, Korea and Viet Nam (not so much), then this would be the newest force structure.

As a concept, it makes sense to me.

In Rummy's execution and employment of it, it has been a disaster.

He also tried to implement the change by wielding a club instead of convincing the military to adopt it.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

28. we had a name for that idiotic strategy... it's called CLUSTERFUCK

and the results are becoming increasingly obvious

[bonzotex]

36. This is not integrated operations

You ask a reasonable question.

Joint Operations - Using forces from multiple services under one command is not new. It's been practically a fetish of the US Military for 20 years.

Joint Task Forces (JTFs) are almost ubiquitous, because each branch brings a different capability to the fight, thus increasing flexibility, firepower and mobility.

You are correct that Rummy has made a dog's breakfast of the whole idea. The retraining of sailors and airman to be substitute ground troops has nothing to do with joint operations or "transformation" of the military. They are merely filling holes in our ground forces.

Each branch of the modern military is extremely specialized. Yes a truck driver in the Navy or Air Force can drive a truck in Iraq but Rummy has gone way beyond that sort of substitution. I could give you plenty of examples. How about, Jet mechanics retrained as truck drivers? Electronic warfare experts as convoy guards? This is happening and it's stupid and destructive to our capabilities in the short and long term

This is an act of desperation, not strength. It is not some sort of canny strategy of force integration. We simply need more bodies to throw in the grinder and they aren't signing up, so the branches cannibalize themselves to fill billets in the sand.

It's worse than even I make it sound. The media doesn't cover the military well. Most reporters have never served. Most papers and TV producers simply don't know shit about how the military does their job. The revolt of the Generals says it all. These guys are pissed and they are overcoming an almost pathological reluctance to criticize the Sec Def.

[Neil Lisst]

38. more crazy desperation from the Bush DOD