Just got a call from the DCCC requesting a contribution.

[Talismom]

Sounded like a very young woman reading about how important it was to take back the congress this year.

I interrupted her saying that I could speed up this process for both of us. Then I told her that in the last two years the policy of this household had changed and that, after seeing democrats demonstrate their allegiance to corportate interests, rather than their constituents--much like republicans--we now no longer support "inside-the-beltway" DLC-like organizations that claim to be democrats. Instead we send quite a bit of contributions to individual incumbants that have voted for the interests of working people and democratic values or who challengers running against the very democrats who voted for the bankruptcy bill, patriot acts and continued funding of the Iraq war. I added that if the democratic party organization comes back to us and demonstrates support for us, this policy might change in the future.

There was a stunned silence on the other end and she just said thank you.

[pberq]

1. This is how we have to take back our party - K&R

[Talismom]

23. I hope so, pberg. At least it's a start. n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Uhm, the DCCC is NOT the DLC.

You do know that, right? And you also know this person is making like $8/hour, probably a college student, and definitely not someone that will actually do anything with your diatribe?

[Talismom]

5. I do indeed know that. However many of the DLC members are in

leadership positions within the party and their policies are being financed by such contributions. My money now goes to the individuals that show real democratic values when they vote and speak out.

I was polite to her and thanked her for her contributions to the party while asking her to relay my message.

[LynneSin]

6. Wow, you love republicans running this country

I mean, that's what your post is telling me. You're saying "I'd rather have republicans fuck up our country even more than to give the majority to a somewhat flawed democratic party that may have disappointed me but hell, who wants people like Conyers, Murtha and Waxman running the committees - I see no value in that"

:D

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. Exactly.

People don't understand that dealing with a few moderates means putting the Kennedys, Conyers, and Boxers of the party into power.

[LynneSin]

8. That's the only reason I vote for DLCer Tom Carper

because my vote for him says "I want control and I want the Kennedy, Leahy, Kerry, Feingold et al running my committees. I could give two shits about Carper - I actually prefer Biden over him.

[Talismom]

10. No, but I'll not march lock-step with a corporatist party that calls

itself democrat while acting and voting like the repukes. That's, in fact, exactly how the repukes themselves act and why so many voters say there's no difference between the parties. I don't agree with them--the philosophical differences are very obvious to me. But when those dems who act like dems are left hanging out to dry because their fellow party members are afraid of annoying their corporate contributors and sounding "too left-wing" while the country moves so far into the fascist domain that many of us fear for it's future, it's time to speak up and do what we can to take the party back. Saying nothing and obediently forking out the dough so they can continue to serve their special interests is just bending over and taking it! Part of why I'm a democrat is that I have far to much self-respect for that!

[LynneSin]

13. Enjoy republican rule but I'll fight you every step of the way

Primary Elections - fight to get rid of bad democrats
General Elections - get rid of republicans

I'd rather have corporarist democrats running the country than republicans because even some of the worst democrats like Joe Lieberman will still hit homeruns when it comes to things like choice & the environment. When's the last time you said "Geez, that republican just hit a homerun with the support he did to pass this progressive bill"

[Skinner]

3. I'm getting tired of the constant drumbeat of "I'm not donating" threads.

Next time the DNC/DSCC/DCCC calls me, I am going to donate, and I'm going to post on DU to tell all of you that I donated.

The DCCC has very little control over what members of congress do. The job of the DCCC is to support the election of Democrats to congress -- regardless of ideology. They can't make members of congress do anything that those members don't want to do.

If you refuse to donate to Democrats, then you are not helping us win in November. It's as simple as that.

[Talismom]

9. If you took the time to actually read what I said, you'd see that I made

it clear that we contribute heavily to democratic candidates that struggle for working people and the values for which democrats claim to stand.

My own state senator made it clear in a recent conversation that these organizations and the money they offer can have a big effect on the policies that the party backs.

When the dems act like a party and support their fellow party members who stand up for our interests, then I'll support the large party organizations. For now, I'll support the individuals--incumbants and challengers--who get the message.

[LynneSin]

11. Then why bother with the post?

Your post was nothing more than negativism & defeastist. Perhaps your wording could have been more along the line of "Instead of donating to the DCCC, why not donate towards your favorite democratic candidates".

Your thread serves no purpose than to start a flamewar and defeatist attitude towards the democratic party as a whole. No one said you have to donate to the DCCC and that intern/volunteer who called you did absolutely nothing about your call except maybe write the word "Difficult" or "B*TCH" next to your name (which I have seen on call lists before).

Stop being defeatist - your thread could have been very encouraging to get people out and donate to something, anything, that could help get the republicans out of the majority but instead you opted to take the cheap shots in hopes for a few nominations from the other defeatists here at DU.

This is how the Rove machine sucessfully defeats us every election cycle even though we go into these things looking like we're in control. Ultimately we fight against each other and the negativity brings us down and discourages volunteerism, donations and even voting.

[Talismom]

16. As I've said, we contribute heavily to democratic interests. I'm on

that list because of that. I have also made those calls and learned a lot by listening and talking with the voters not just passing judgment on them. You have the right to dislike my wording, but I have the right to place the emphasis where I want it to be. And right now, my interest is in taking back power by having an real alternative to offer voters and making it clear to the so-called leadership that many of us believe that their actions have been working against us for too long now. We are the real democratic leadership and it's about time we acted like it!

[LynneSin]

18. Then post that way

this thread is nothing more than a flamewar and negativity. Had you posted just what you said to me people wouldn't be having hissy fits right now. If people want to contributed to the DNC/DSCC/DCCC/DLC, pro-democratic parties like Move-On or Emily's List or even individual progressive candidates of their choice - it's ALL GOOD!! All of it, every single dime because all of those groups and many more hope to remove democrats from office.

[Talismom]

22. It's in the original post if you read the whole thing. What you're calling

defeatist is what I call hopping mad and working hard to change. I'm as sick of sheeple taking over, not only the repuke party, but making inroad into the dems as you are of defeatism! And I have the right to express it no matter how much the sheeple bleat!

[rockymountaindem]

28. LynnneSin is right

If you are donating, why not post a thread that says "I just donated to a great progressive candidate" instead of the one you posted, which despite your claims, does strike a rather negative tone?

[Skinner]

19. Fair enough.

I appreciate that you are donating to other Democrats.

But I still think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about how the DCCC works. They do not have ideological litmus tests for candidates. They support Democrats, period. They target races based on how competitive they are likely to be in November, they defend vulnerable Democratic incumbents, and they help Democratic challengers who are up against vulnerable Republican incumbents.

The bottom line for me is that I find it mildly disturbing that here on a website (Democratic Underground) that is supposed to be supporting Democrats, there seems to be a constant drumbeat of thread topics encouraging people to NOT support our candidates or our party. I can't help thinking what the effect might be. We have a chance to win this year, and I would prefer that DU be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. That's probably an unrealistic expectation, I know.

So, next time you donate to one of those individual candidates who "get the message" I hope you will start a thread to let us all know and encourage others to do the same.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. Skinner, here's an example of a thread like you suggest

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2550159

It got the involvement of exactly three people.

I understand, and pretty much share, your sentiments, even after having started a recent thread not unlike the type you're decrying.

Perhaps it would be useful to have a thread pinned to the top of one or two forums that explains exactly what all the initials mean (DNC, DCCC, DSCC, DLC, etc. etc.) and what each organization is and does.

I can't believe for a moment that anyone who starts such a thread, me included, is in any way, shape, or form, trying to undermine the party or our candidates. Indeed, in my own thread of this flavor:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2586113
my point was NOT an undermining of the party or its appartus, but instead to put some **general** pressure on the party to fix the damned voting machines.

I honestly believe virtually everyone here with any tenure is fully on board with winning in '06.

That said, I understand your point as well.

[Talismom]

27. In fact, I believe that it says something very positive about a

party when the people supporting it are not harassed and drummed out of it when they criticize some of the policies and actions that contribute to its ineffectiveness. When the party is truly open to corrections from its grassroots, it is, unlike the repukes, alive and growing. To censure such criticisms, either directly or via insinuating a lack of "party loyalty" works against the party and is very much like the right-wing that calls us "unpatriotic" if we object to some government policy. I am expressing my devotion to this party, not only by contributing money but also with my opinions and criticisms. I believe we are strong enough to "take it" and work with it.

[sui generis]

30. perfect

and it does seem like criticism is censured a bit more than required on DU.

Personally variations in ideology are fine until they are so far apart they are a 180 degree contradiction.

I'm a populist sort of guy - and I can understand a broad mix of economic ideology. I have NO ROOM in my head or my concept of the party ideal for variations on ideology as far as civil equality or human rights are concerned.

I can distastefully tolerate democratic interests that derive some benefit from some corporate lobbies, but no interest in partisan organizations that don't feel compelled to address core party values.

We would be a much stronger party if organizations like the DCCC took an assertive stand on those issues. Many of us would likely give money individually and to the DCCC if we could be sure that we even had a party value on equality or civil or human rights. Do we? Is it written down somewhere?

If not, why not? Am I just being naive or is there something being said between the lines that I'm not getting?

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. Well, pardon me for saying this...

I hope I am not out of line here...

But when you say:

The bottom line for me is that I find it mildly disturbing that here on a website (Democratic Underground) that is supposed to be supporting Democrats, there seems to be a constant drumbeat of thread topics encouraging people to NOT support our candidates or our party. I can't help thinking what the effect might be

You realize that only you can do anything about it?

I'm not saying that to be snarky or rude. I have noticed the very same thing, and it's getting worse around here. But yet nothing is done about it. Threads gratuitously attacking prominent Democrats are frequent to the point of nausea, as are these "I told the DNC/DLC/DCCC/DSCC to fuck off!" threads. It really bothers me - and a great many other posters here - deeply. There are rules against baseless attacks against Democrats, but they are rarely, if ever, enforced.

I love DU. Don't get me wrong. I have had one of the best experiences of my life because of DU. I have met lifelong friends because of DU. I will not leave DU voluntarily. But there is a problem, and you yourself recognize it, as you said in your post above. But this website belongs to you, Skinner, and it's a great website, but only you can make it right. The haters are bringing it down. I know you don't want DU to turn into a left-wing FR, both of which bashing Democrats with equal fervor.

I don't know what to suggest to you. I don't think DU needs more rules, and I understand that there are many more members now than there ever have been. But something needs to be done to enforce the rule we have about not attacking Democrats. I don't think posters should be allowed to post constant negativity about Democrats, get into flamewars with people who support this party and most of its candidates, and disrupt the site.

Please, Skinner - only you can do this. It's your website, and it's a great one. But there's a big problem here, and you have identified it - but there needs to be a way to fix it.

Thanks for listening.

[ray of light]

35. Skinner, thank you for defending democrats.

First, let me say I agree with you and Wildeyedliberal. This is a great website and I'm so happy to have found it. Like Wel, I've had the pleasure of meeting so many people and hearing so many stories both good and bad. But I agree with you, there is a contant, "I'm not donating..." as well as the constant drumbeat against the party or future candidates. First, any of these people who downplay the positives of the democratic party may not be trolls but they may be disrupters. People who want to stick around here and not get banished. They never cross the line so they get banned but they disrupt, start fights, and trash talk almost all the candidates and the Democratic Party right and left.

You have many people here who are already working their buns off on election reform and the upcoming elections. It's extremely disheartening to log in and see 20 threads bashing Kerry, another 20 bashing Leiberman, the DCC, DLC, Gore, Hillary, and Donald Duck. I've seen time and time again people who just are flat out tired of banging their heads against the wall trying to 'reason' with the same disrupters and they want to leave D.U.

Maybe that doesn't matter to the disrupters who claim, "Free Speech" all over the place, but you have a lot of lurkers. It took me at least 6 months to get brave enough to sign in. And the fact is that these disrupters take away from the hard work and the gains that everyone in our party has made! And I'm including most Congressmen, DU participants, other blogs, as well as the hard work you and your crew has put in on this website.


I'd like to share this post with you because in essence it's what I feel needs to happen around here. It's posted by Michael Gallean at 1:50 am. http://www.progressiveu.org/105518-washington-post-abu-ghraib-to-close-many-other-prisons-remain-open

I think it says what needs to happen if we want to make sure people understand the Democratic message. But the dumping on candidates or the organization shouldn't be a part of an organization that hopes to elect these same people.

But as Wel stated it is your website and you've done a fantastic job growing it and nursing it. It has so much potential. I guess it's up to you to decide how you want to handle the constant negativity.

[flpoljunkie]

12. But Talismom is donating to Democrats individually, just not to the DCCC.

"Instead we send quite a bit of contributions to individual incumbants that have voted for the interests of working people and democratic values or who challengers running against the very democrats who voted for the bankruptcy bill, patriot acts and continued funding of the Iraq war." - Talismom

[LynneSin]

15. Why couldn't she posted that instead of coming across as defeastist

I applaud donations to individual candidates.

But her thread was negative and why even Skinner is peeved. The same thread could have been done in a manner that not only spoke about why she wasn't donating to the DCCC but to encourage people to donate to democratic candidates

[flpoljunkie]

20. I do not see her post as defeatist, but as a call to Dems to vote like

Dems, and not enable legislation like the recently passed one-sided bankruptcy bill, which would not have passed without the help of corporatist Dems.

We will begin to win again when Democrats decide to stand up for the people of this country and distinguish themselves from the Republicans. One way to accomplish this goal is to reward Dems who vote like real Dems.

This is my fervent wish for our party.

[Talismom]

17. Thank you flpoljunkie for reading it! n/t

[flpoljunkie]

21. You are welcome, Talismom!

[RogueTrooper]

14. Right On

:yourock:

:dem:

[ScreamingMeemie]

29. ...and then I'm going to alert on you asking for you to be banned because

you are not a pure Democrat. :P

[WildEyedLiberal]

33. Jesus Christ, thank you Skinner

That needed said.

[LynneSin]

4. She was nicer than what I would have been to you

I would have thanked you for doing your part to ensure republicans keep control. Yes, the democrats are flawed but they are also in the minority. It was even reported here how like 95% of all democratic bills have been rejected.

We will never have the perfect dream democratic house & senate that you so willfully wish away for but I'd rather take a flawed democratic party in the majority than than a republican majority any day of the week.

In Rahl Emmanual (Head of the DCCC) said on Bill Maher's show about finding an end to this neverending war. That earned a few dollars from me.

[Stevepol]

25. Good but wish you had mentioned the voting machines.

Until these groups make election reform the #1 priority, I tell them, I will use my money to support people and organizations that are not afraid to recognize fraud when it happens and to work to restore American democracy, which has been stolen by the unholy voting machines. And I remind them that if they will look into the facts about the 04 election and others before and after that they will know why so many of the Dem base are incensed about the so-called leaders of the party.

[Talismom]

26. I totally agree. You've made a very good point. It was early--

I was dressing for work and still feeling groggy--I was fast enough on my feet at that point to remember that point, but I will in the future! Thanks.

[nicehuman]

31. I got the same call

Funny you should post this today. I got the same call last night. I usually do donate but last night I told them since no one would support Russ Feingold's censure of Bush I am hesitant to donate again. I told the guy to call back for money when they file articles of impeachment.

[Talismom]

32. I guess it's just a matter of time before you too are told that you want

the republicans to win again!