Is Howard Dean our best spokesperson?

[Stinky The Clown]

I know the title seems like flame bait, but PLEASE read before you light the torch. I am NOT here to diss Dr. Dean. Quite the opposite, actually.

I was watching Hairballs today. That stupid ignoramus giggling twit Nora O'Donnell was sitting in for Tweety. (I never thought I'd miss Tweety.) In the usual Friday "Hardball Allstars" bit, they had Regular Joe, Reeter, and TheThugFormerlyKnownAsBowTieBoy. They were talking about gas (approriate, with those four).

Earlier Howard Dean was on. O'Donnell dragged out the tired, sorry 'Dems have no plan' crap. Dean gave a credible response.

Fast foward to the Allstars. Every fucking one of them cited, directly or by nodding in agreement, the same shit. Dems have no plan. Even with Dean having said what the plan is and where to find it.

Right now, on teevee, it appears that the only voices we have are Dr. Dean, fighting hard ..... and an array of mostly Vichy Dems.

My point ... and the reason for my question ...... it seems that the RW and the Three Monkey Media have insidiously done to Dean the Chairman what they did to Dean the Candidate. They have reduced him to a caricature. Try as valiantly as he might, he can't get his message heard. Not for what he says or how he says it, but because the media will not allow it.

Again, this is saying NOTHING in opposition to Dean. I am glad he's chair and he's doing a marvelous job, even with the swamp he has to wade through .... from the right and from some on the left.

But what do you think? Has he been made ineffective as a spokesperson?

[xultar]

1. ...

Come join me on the sofa

[SharonAnn]

90. Yes. He's absolutely outstanding.

[otohara]

2. Nora "Cackle Cackle Snort Snort"

goes into overdrive to make dems look bad.

[KoKo]

36. She's demented....I've tried to be kind about her...but she's hopeless..n/

[madfloridian]

3. That was no caricature I saw on Hardball. The attacks here unending.

The attacks here are unending. The Clark people post insults to Kerry, and vice versa. They both blame Dean for something or the other everyday.

I live in a very Republican community, and they have a lot of respect for the guy you are calling a caricature.

Shame on you guys for what you are doing to each other and trying to do to someone who is not even running in 08.

Do not pretend this post was not an attack. It was.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. Okay .... first off

It was not an attack. I know you can't see that, but it is how **I** meant it. If you want to look for for atacks on Dean, then look no further than the rerun of Hardball in one hour. You will see what I saw. The panel was completely dismissive.

I am not 'calling him a caricature." Your argument is simply dihonest.

What do Clark and kerry have to do with this?

[madfloridian]

14. You know perfectly well what I am talking about.

You guys all need to realize what you are doing to each other. There will nothing left for 08 at this rate.

Let them do what they do. It is no worse than we do against our own here at DU.

In the end, people in the real world are far less prejudiced than many here....they are pretty openminded.

[Ravenseye]

10. I don't think it was an attack

I happen to like Clark and Kerry and Dean.

I think his question was a valid one. If our spokesman is Mr. X and Mr. X is made fun of by the conservative talking heads, should we change our pokesman to be Mr. Y? To which the answer is "No, becaues they'll just make fun of Mr. Y."

[madfloridian]

29. The choice of words was meant to harm.

That is just wrong.

[incapsulated]

11. WTF??

Did you even read what he said? Jesus.

[madfloridian]

32. I read every word.

This is just like the attacks going on here toward Kerry. It is said to be one thing while being what it is...an attack.

It starts out with "this is not an attack" or "this is not flamebait."

But it is, pure and simple.

[incapsulated]

33. It was not.

I disagree with his argument, but this was not an attack on Dean.

I haven't attacked Kerry and I don't like getting dragged into some smear of Kerry and Clark supporters by your suggestion that we are at war here, which is nonsense, as well.

[karynnj]

62. Hi incapsulated - Can I parrot your statement

I haven't attacked Clark. We're not at war. Also the OP is saying how badly Dean WAS TREATED. I think anyone we put on tends to be ill treated.

Kerry avoids it to some degree by appearing infrequently enough that they feel they have to treat him reasonably. (Except Katie Couric - but Kerry was so much better than she that he actrually laughed at the end when she said the standard "nice to have you on")

Dean as DNC head has to be on so often - that he can't do this. I'm genuinely not convinced anyone, representing the DNC, would be treated better.

[incapsulated]

77. I agree.

This thread has gone off the rails, lol.

[karynnj]

60. I have DEFENDED Clark people at times

I really don't think the Clark and Kerry people spend a lot of time fighting. I support Dean as the head of the DNC.

[barb162]

68. Amen and I SO agree.

[w13rd0]

4. The corporate owned media will do this to EVERYONE...

...that says something other than what they want to hear. So why not have someone as Chairman dedicated to doing something ON THE GROUND, regardless of what the corpowhore media have to say about it?

[Ravenseye]

5. If Jesus were our spokesperson...

...they'd say the same things.

The Democrats could publish a book signed by every member of congress called "The Democratic Plan For America: 100 Specific Things We Want To Do" and the first review by one of these people would be to say that it doesn't lay out any coherent plan.

IE. Right wing talking heads will lie and lie and lie because that's what they're paid to do.

[The Wielding Truth]

98. EX: Murtha. He was the hawk repukes loved until he had to speak out

then he was a candidate for character assassination. Anyone not in lock step is the enemy becomes their fool.

I like that Dean can stay on track no matter what they throw at him.He may not be smooth but he is true to our beliefs and he is there to help as many of us as possible.
BushCo is there to help themselves. It is very difficult to defend yourself from the BushCo twisted party propaganda. The difference in our Party's, is that we have to be honest. It is who we are. We think it is the only way to establish trust and without it their is very little basis for a working relationship. I think that is why we are so frustrated with the way this country is being treated.
They don't think honesty is important enough to hold anyone in their party accountable. They are more interested in gossip and fear than communication. If lying can further their game they do it smilingly.
I am thankful that Howard Dean is smart enough to side step their mucky
self centered arguments and speak for us.

[madfloridian]

6. Suggestion to the open-minded here at DU.

Watch the replay of Hardball at 7 and draw your own conclusions. 1st ten minutes.

This is pure and simple baiting. It is just like the baiting of the Kerry supporters here all week. It is getting almost unbearable.

[Adelante]

17. You are MISINTERPRETING

As usual.

[madfloridian]

23. Yep, that is all I do is misinterpret.

Apparently.

This thread is nothing but flamebait. That was an excellent interview. It happens to all the Democrats when they do something right....someone here puts a ? on it.

[Adelante]

45. The OP is discussing the MEDIA

and what it does to our Dem leaders. You decide you are going to create some Clarkie war on Kerry scenario that does not exist -- out of pure nothing. Even if it did exist, which again it does not, what on earth does it have to do with this OP? You're just causing trouble, that's what you're doing. I don't know why, sincerely, I do not. But I am very sick of it. The OP does not attack Democrats ever, in case you haven't noticed, and is not in this thread. This is a political discussion board and people are here to discuss politics for pity's sake. If you don't like it, pass it by.

[madfloridian]

48. The only way you will get a Democrat to NOT be bashed by media....

is to put one on TV all the time who talks like a Republican, thinks like one, and has their best interests at heart.

This is a reference to 04 by the OP, and he needs to be called on it.

I have found it shameful here how the primaries never ended. I hurt very badly for the Kerry supporters yesterday, the attacks were overboard and totally unfair.

You want a spokesperson the right wing will love? Well, good luck.

Please don't try to convince me this was an innocent post. I was not born yesterday.

[Adelante]

49. Why are you implying attacks on Kerry are done by Clark supporters?

Why?????

I'm not saying there aren't a few individual Clarkies who don't like Kerry, but so what? There are always people who don't like some politician. We are entitled to have opinions. In your opinion ex-military shouldn't run for political office. I strongly disagree with you. I think you are very wrong. But it's your opinion, I get that. I never turned around and said Dean supporters are hurting our Fighting Dems, no, I said MadFloridian is hurting our Fighting Dems. But you decide to broadcast a totally bogus Clarkie conspiracy against Kerry based on what I have no idea. I don't even know what you're talking about, because the attack threads I did see in the past week were NOT by Clark supporters.

Here is a thread from today you can look at. See who is defending Kerry, including the OP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2595516

The very thread we are in now contains NO attacks on Howard Dean. None. You are fucking making things up.

[incapsulated]

50. Who the fuck are you referring to?

Killerbush? He ain't a Clarkie that I know of. Anyone else you care to NAME?

[karynnj]

63. Hi Wes Dem

Just wanted to say to Madfloridian that you, though you support Clark, defended Kerry as recently as today. To my knowledge there is no Kerry/Clark war.

[Adelante]

70. I alerted on that thread

Saying it was pure right wing trash talk. We just shouldn't tolerate it. I have no problem with disagreements, opposing opinions, as long as it's not based on lies, but what constitutes Dem-bashing to my mind is precisely a post like that one, where some bullshit event is revived and replayed for the sole purpose of demeaning a good Democrat. It's not acceptable. I would feel the same way if somebody all of a sudden decided to post a video link to the "Dean Scream" with the background noise blocked out, the way the media played it unendingly at the time. The media does this to us all the time. The same behavior should have no place here on DU.

[karynnj]

86. Thanks for alerting

I didn't because there were so many people who were refuting the OP's conclusion and correcting the misquote ("go to war" rather than "vote for the IWR").

[babylonsister]

8. Dean sounded good, and Whora is a blazing twit.

She was downright snotty to Dean and didn't treat him with the respect he deserves. I agree with your analysis; those 3 r/w morons were just trotting out the tired old repug mantra while also taking some cheap shots at Clinton and Dems. Makes me wonder what they're afraid of and why they didn't have someone like Reagan on to provide some kind of balance. The tide is turning, and I think/hope anyone watching this show might view it with a healthy dose of skepticism.
And what is with Tucker claiming the Plame mess has no substance to it? He refuses to accept that the woman was an undercover agent.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Exactly my point

They're dismissive and disrespectful. Their whole tone causes one to not hear what he's saying.

[incapsulated]

18. But Husb...

This is Hairballs. This is what they do to any Dem.

[incapsulated]

9. Well...

They would marginalize anyone who was the Dem Chair. At least they have been interested in Dean because was a star in the party before he got the job, and "controversial". At least when he is out there, he speaks forcefully and well. That is all we can ask. The whores in the media will do what they always do.

[Adelante]

12. Dean's approval ratings are high, though

Higher than the president and the congress. So I think he does get through despite what I agree is a media fuckest. He has approval ratings in the mid-40s, I believe.

[dogman]

13. I think part of the answer came later.

Nora asked the "Hollywood" Hotshots why entertainment personalities are the spokespersons for causes instead of politicians. My answer is because those are the only people the media cover. How many times have they ignored our spokespeople? Clooney is sitting at a table with politicians who, other than a bit of Obama, they completely ignore. How long ago did Dem leaders speak out about Darfur. Now Clooney speaks and they discover there is a problem.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. Thank you

That's certainly a part of the issue.

And as an aside, kudo's to the Clooney's for doing what they did ... all alone .... no 'troops' to support them. Same to Angelina Jolie(sp?)

[Warpy]

16. Well, first stop watching that horse shit

It will do wonders for your blood pressure. Those shows are all by and for GOP flacks. Democrats need to start setting a few conditions for being on that garbage, namely that they will be on the panel for the entire show and speak for themselves. No more damage control by smirking, smug right wing pundits.

Until they do, join the millions of Americans who have tuned out.

All those shows are losing market share. People are sick of the format of two or three drooling right wing zealots opposing one tepid liberal. People are looking at their paychecks and prices and listening to those empty headed right wing twits burble on about how great the economy is and they know they're being lied to.

Shut that thing off. Listen to some good music while you do something creative in the kitchen. Rent movies if you need to veg out. Let their advertisers dwindle and finally vanish.

Don't turn any of that stuff on until we get the Fairness Doctrine back. Until we do, it'll be such an unfair medium that it's not worth bothering with.

[partylessinOhio]

27. I agree with you. Stop watching this crap 24/7. Think for yourselves

already.

The democrats have to stick together, back their party chairman, select ONE perfect candidate to run for President and stick with them. We don't need a dozen in the primary. One candidate - no primary. Then everyone needs to unite behind that candidate and then PUSH 'em 24/7.

We need a new governor in Ohio. We have no single perfect candidate to vote for in either party. I don't care about the Repugs but it's true.

Speaking of a plan, where is the Repug plan? Everything the Emperor told the voters was a lie. He didn't follow through on anything. He is still working on a daily plan according to which way the polls blow.

Why should the Dems reveal a detailed plan? All we need to do is reverse everything decided by the Decider and we will be fine again. Bring back the good old days of the Clinton administration.

[Cha]

42. Good POints! Don't even go

on those Dems hacked to pieces fests if you can't be on the whole time and get some balance.

I don't see how these shows can be watched without breaking the screen.
:argh:

[durrrty libby]

19. In my opinion Dean is a great spokesperson for the party.

He can not be baited at all.

He does not waiver. He sticks to the points he wants to make. Period.

I am always impressed with his appearances

[Stinky The Clown]

40. I am too. He never fails to impress .... me. But I'm not who the needed

audience is. And **that** is why I asked the quesiton I asked.

[madfloridian]

43. Who would you recommend?

?

[Tempest]

21. Considering the record level of fundraising Dean has brought in

The answer is a resounding YES.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. Not just his fundraising ... but also getting .....

... a Dem candidate in 431 of 435 CDs ...... a new record.

[madfloridian]

24. SO...you just don't think he should be on TV as the voice.

Who do you want? Could you be specific? Is there a method in this? Yes, I think so.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. Actually, I have no one in mind as an alternate ... and I never said **I**

didn't want him as spokesman. You may be just a little blinded by your own views and projecting on me something that simply isn't there.

Readd again what I said in my OP, which ended in 'what do you think?'

[madfloridian]

47. No, you are implying there is a more credible spokesperson.

And you did it using the word caricature. I and many others think he is doing a fine job in difficult circumstances.

I think this was an outrageous thing for you to do. It has nothing to do with anything but the mindset of the groups here at DU.

Actually I have the same views I had in 04, but I am working to change things in the party the best way I can.

I did not want Howard Dean to be chairman. I think he should have worked with DFA and run again in 08.

But he is an effective voice for our party. And what you did, and what others are doing here constantly at DU is a shame. I know he won't run again, but I wish he would. I hope to hell the party keeps messing around with him, and that he steps down to run. But he won't.

DU is being used right now to hurt other Democrats. It is getting pretty constant. I will call BS when I see it.

[sandnsea]

25. It's what they do

To anybody. What is it that so many people around here just don't get.

And labeling any Dems who are working to get a message out doesn't help. Much better to post what Democrats actually said, to help spread the message, then to just piss and moan.

[madfloridian]

26. Your use of the word "caricature" was intentional. You wanted it to stick

This is shamelessly doing harm to our party.

Frankly that was one of his best interviews. Intelligent people can tell bullshit when they see it, and they are catching on.

You intended for this to be harmful, just as several posts last night were very harmful to Kerry.

It is a shame. Go ahead, you and your buds yell at me. Intelligence in the American people will out. They will get tired of the military baiting and posturing, and good people will overcome it.

In SPITE of the vitriol here at DU toward our Democrats.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. When will you stop projecting?

How do you know what my 'intent' was. If you're going to impute motive, at least have the courage - and frankly, the damned decency - to say what, specificaly, that motive might be.

And who are my 'buds'. If you are going to make accusations, have the courage to make them.

In short ... what are you talking about????????

[karynnj]

64. There were some uncalled for Kerry OPs

But my impression, as a Kerry person, is that people supporting other candidates were not playing - they were knocking the disrupters. I think as some of the Clark people said they're sick of the garbage.

You make it sound like it was getting worse.

[madfloridian]

28. Again, I urge people to watch the rerun at 7. Decide for yourself.

The use of the word caricature is poorly chosen, and meant to reinforce things from 04. It was done, in my opinion, to harm.

I urge you to watch that excellent interview, and see the "caricature" for yourselves. Make up your own mind.

And maybe have another discussion then about whether it was caricature or not. It would be nice to have intelligent discussion here with the 04 distortions creeping in.

Oddly enough, when the great interview was over...my husband laughed and said hey you better check DU for the attacks cause he was very good.

And I did, and I saw this.

[Mz Pip]

30. I wish he were out there more

Dean needs to be out in front more than he is. He seems to disappear for long periods of time. I want to see him hammering the Repugs on a daily basis.


Mz Pip
:dem:

[w13rd0]

34. That's not his job...

...his job is building the party from the ground up. Occassionally, he sits in a room and talks to a camera. Democrats need to QUIT LOOKING FOR A MESSIAH. The Republicans glory in the cult of personality. We should steer FAR CLEAR of that sort of thing. The media will ALWAYS serve its corporate masters. It is OUR responsibility to get the message out. People will respond in a far more sincere and lasting fashion to a compelling argument from someone they know and trust than they will to the bloviating of drug-addled propaganda slingers they hear thru the cackle of their radios. They are losing faith in their elected representatives and talking heads. WE the PEOPLE need to pick up the slack and let them know what's what...

[madfloridian]

37. If a Democrat can get media coverage, and speak out...they should.

I am all for that.

[Stinky The Clown]

41. I would **love** to see a rotating cast of spokespeople

Sadly, apart from Dean and a few others, all we get are the Vichy dems.

[KoKo]

31. Dean gave incredible SOUND BYTES/Talking Points! Magnificent

performance. I give him credit and Nora credit. Nora didn't do her "giggly lap dance" while she interviewed him and Dean was "appropriately serious" except for those great glimpses of Dean's "Sunshine Smile" when Nora did her Repug Talking points thinking she would do a "GOTCHA" before she could go bounce on her lappy thingy.

Throughout the interview ...Nora restrained herself. :D....Quite an accomplishment.

Dean was Great...I just sent him a another contribution for our Canvassing efforts this weekend all over America!

[madfloridian]

35. I agree.

For someone who was in Nashville around noon for the Franken show, and in Charlotte, NC for a BBQ and rally and Hardball show....it was excellent.

[NightOwwl]

44. I think just the opposite.

Hora/Rita/Joe/Tucker are the ones who ended up looked like caricatures.

Laughing and joking at the expense of Dean and Dems like they were at some Repug-only beltway cocktail party. And the only thing they accomplished was making total asses of themselves.

Dean, on the other hand, was superb.

[AtomicKitten]

46. The GOP and sheep HATE Dean.

which means he's doing a GREAT job.

I fully support Dean as DNC Chair.

[JI7]

51. it's the WHORE MEDIA

it's their job to beat up on Democrats. they are whores. it's not as if it's a balanced situation where Dems have a fair chance.

[madfloridian]

Ok, let's reverse this situation here.

I see some people above are very angry with me. People will never forget that I have said that I think the party is going overboard with the military..making us safer..theme. I still feel that way.

BUT...what if I wrote a post with a subject line with something like this....Are our Democrats in danger of becoming caricatures because of their insistence on the military make us safe theme?

Oh, boy, would you ever call that an attack, and it could definitely be construed as one. But the difference is I would never post anything like that. That is the difference... I would not use that word "caricature" against a fellow Democrat.

[Adelante]

53. You are deliberately blind

The OP does not call Dean that. He says the media is creating that impression of Dean. There is a difference.

[madfloridian]

54. You did not respond to the point I made.

What if I used the words "caricature" in connection with Clark and the National Security emphasis our party is making. I wouldn't do that, I would never start a post like that.

[Adelante]

55. I certainly did respond to that point

Dean is not presented as such by the OP, but by the media. You are misinterpreting. As for Clark and national security presented that way, if it happened, I would argue against it. But here in this thread, it was not done to Howard Dean, as you are so intent on claiming.

It's too bad the discussion turned away from its intent, because the topic was important.

Good job.

[w13rd0]

59. I agree...

...some are going WAY overboard with the need to OVERCOMPENSATE for the PERCEPTION OF A WEAKNESS the Republicans have FOISTED upon our party. It's bullshit, and every bit as odious as the Republicans constant flag-waving, gay-baiting crap.

[Jai4WKC08]

61. If you did what you're describing

Which is not what the OP did, but if YOU did it...

I would say that you were nuts, and I'd probably tell you why. But I wouldn't rant about all "Deaniacs" making attacks against Clark.

Come to think of it, I seem to remember you have made statements just like the one in your "what if."

[madfloridian]

71. I never started a thread on it, and I NEVER used the word "caricature"

Because I just would not do that. It was not Ok for the OP to do it, and it would not be ok for me to do it. I thought you'd agree about that.

[Jai4WKC08]

81. You evade my point

You disagree with the OP. Fine. I do too, altho not for the reason you do. You have every right to disagree with what he said.

But what I wouldn't do, but what you have done, is accuse the OP of being party to some sort of nefarious plot to discredit the DNC Chair. And Kerry and other Democratic leaders.

It's just wrong for you to attack a group of DUers and accuse us of launching attacks on other Democrats--worse than what you accuse the OP of. Clarkies may have ganged up on others back in the primaries or during the VP selection debates (altho we were hardly the only ones, nor imo the worst). I challenge you to show where we have done anything like it since.

Far as I can tell, you are the one trying to reignite primary wars. Not the OP.

[madfloridian]

52. Double posted...self deleted.

.

[Disturbed]

57. Howard Dean is a good Spokesperson but I...

like Barbara Boxer, Feingold and Kucinich even more.

"Those shows are all by and for GOP flacks."

Yeah, that is why I do not watch them.

[realFedUp]

56. One of the most honest....

He usually cuts through the spin.

[MoonRiver]

58. People have to wake up. I think they're waking up.

When they're fully awake the messages of people like Dean, and absolutely NOT like Nora O'Donnell, will resonate with their pain/needs/hopes and dreams etc. I don't know when this will happen, but I think it will be soon. JMTB.

[blm]

65. The media does it to EVERY Dem who sticks their neck out. Now, it's Dean.

The tactic has been used to such great success, NOT because the attacks are even close to being true, but because the corporate media always gets the last word, and gets to have it over and over again, while the Dem's hardly have any media machine at all to counter.

[zulchzulu]

66. Howard is doing a great job...he just needs to be on longer in interviews

When the MSM give Dean two minutes and start off by being negative to him in the first place, the jig is already up.

Give Howard a little time to talk and he's great!

[Stinky The Clown]

67. Okay, this was a somewhat productive thread ... apart from the off track

bickering.

I'd like to add a few more thoughts on the original topic and also answer a few of the comments.

First, about watching - or not watching - the cablenewz shows. I am not suggesting anyone watch them. For me, however, I like knowing what's being said, how our side looks, how their side looks, how events are spun, what the talking points du jour are, etc. Fox is just too biased and is mostly a cartoon. Indeed, the more deluded tend to watch it and their numbers are up there, but it is, nonetheless, a cartoon. CNN is simply hogwash, and a bad imitation of Fox. MSNBC, on the other hand, is a bit more complex. As the last ones in the ratings, they're more schizophrenic than the rest. For the Right Wingers and enablers they have on, they also have Olberman, who I think is honest and who tells the flip-side of what the rest do. Even Regular Joe, who I trust as far as I can throw him, sometimes shows some honesty and an ability to at least smack the more egregious things done by the cabal. Interestingly, and as an example of the network's schizophrenia, I was amazed to hear the Hardball Allstars mention that smoke and mirrors stunt Hastert and some others did ... riding off in an alt fuel mini car and a block later, on a side street, jumping back into the whale size Suburbans. So, while a good deal of the cablenewsworld is just bullshit, MSNBC, by design or by accident, uses the spin and at least partly refutes it. They also have a few pretty good reporters. Like the Davids - Gregory and Schuster.

And so, I watch.

Next ...... someone asked, in response to my OP, who **I** suggest would be a good spokesperson for the Dems, if not Dean. First, accusations and silly personality-inspired ravings aside, I never suggested Dean should **not** be the spokesperson. But that aside, who else might be good is a valid question. There's a part of me that says ..... nobody. The fact is, the chair they sit any Dem guest in has a target painted on it and they sit him/her down and just sling shit at him/her. I'd love to see a preemptive end to this. Our side might just say 'no respect, no guest'. Talk to the hand. Seeya. But of course, we all know that won't work. The Vichy Dems will swarm and our message looks even worse than they're able to paint it now. Imagine a world where our public face is a daily rotation of Holy Joe, Wishy-washy Joe, and Diane.

In some measure, what we need is our own version of Ann Coulter. Not for the cartoon value. And absolutely not for the vitriol, venom, and outright dishonesty. Rather, our version of her would be there for the ability to command a session and talk back to the host when the host baits, smack the host down when the host asks for it, and, in short, take no shit. But with humor and likability. And to go slightly over the top every now and again. James Carville comes to mind (no, I am NOT suggesting him).

Appoint this person to some role in the DNC so as to give him/her the party imprimatur. Chief Media Bulldog. DNC Media Strategist. Whatever. And then get that person out there to give shit and, as needed, to take shit for the routine media appearances. When its time for a serious, weighty interview, Howard Dean (as party chair) or some other spokesperson with at least as much **actual** gravitas as Dean can be the spokesperson.

In my view it is both unfair and unrealistic for all of this to fall on Howard Dean's back. I'm taken back to the 04 campaign, in the early days, when John Kerry was still the 'presumptive' nominee. Initially he had no surrogates. No one to go out there and take the shit. The others of the party's then-luminaries were too busy with their own faltering campaigns, and Kerry's, it seems, was not yet fully organized. The net result was a muddied message and the planting of many seeds that took root in the height of the campaign. We know, for example, when the Swiftboaters were at their fieriest. But think. When did the shit first start? When Kerry was just starting to get it together. The attacks were blunted when others in the party joined Kerry's team, if not as actual members of the campaign, at least as surrogates willing to speak out on his behalf. Max Cleland comes first to mind. So does the guy whose life Kerry saved (James Rassman? Rasmussen?). They stood there and took the hits so Kerry could concentrate on message. It was a team effort. Who can ever forget Max, in his wheelchair, in the hot Texas sun, at the gate to the pig farm to demand Bush stop the swiftboaters? Later, many of the failed candidates joined in and Kerry came ***this**** close to beating junior (some of us continue to believe he actually did). It was a team effort and it took many faces and many voices. And, most critically, each of those voices and each of those faces were there for ***John Kerry*** ..... not for themselves and not for any hidden agenda.

In many ways, that same situation obtains for the Democratic Party today. In that this is a midterm and in that we have no presumptive standard bearer, and in that most of the national faces are involved in their own races, and in that the ones who aren't are helping the ones who are, we have but one spokesperson. Howard Dean. His message has been strong and he's been doing a good job. But, as on the teevee show I cite in the OP, he has come to be disrespected and, in some ways, subtle or not, the object of derision or dismissiveness. That isn't his fault. And I am finding no fault in him. But he simply can't do it alone.

So how about this? Just above I suggest a 'designated spokesperson' to assist Dean. Not to replace him. Not to ignore him. To assist him. To take the shit. To 'ride a wheelchair to the gate of the pig farm' if you will. A surrogate. And maybe that person ought to be some unknown. No baggage. Hell, maybe even an actor. I don't know. So long as they have as deep a command of the facts as Dean, have the guts of Dean, and have the ability to charm a person, even while driving the sword deep into their gut. A coup de grace .... but with an engaging smile. A Steven Colbert type. A Randi Rhodes or a Stephanie Miller. Or maybe a whole fleet of them.

Make it such that when a network gets an interview with Dean it is cherished ... by the **network** far more than by us. Make it such that they're grateful to have him.

Now .... some here may not agree with some or all of this. But make no mistake. It is a thoughtful suggestion and not - exactly as stated in the OP - an attack on Howard Dean. In fact, what it is, is an attack on the media for a total breakdown of honesty. So if they want to be dishonest, let's send them a person to call them on that when need be, and keep our real leaders out of the shitstorm ... where they can be effective ..... and where, when **they** decide to speak, their message is heard.

[madfloridian]

69. You are assuming all in the party have the same goals for the party.

That is the problem. They do not. There are different goals in all the various parts of the party. Some are shared goals, some are not. There is a huge change going on in the DNC part and many are not pleased with it.

As of now, it seems to be that the goals of the congressional committees are to pick candidates in the most viable races, and often not too much concern for issues...just winning.

The DLC, as a posted the other day, is actually saying they are setting the agenda. They have a lot of power with the media, as they are the think tank that was formed to cater to the corporations. They can get people on the air.

There is so much competition in the party right now, with so many potentially running for president...that in itself is an issue. Dean's goal is to set up email rapid response for getting on the same page...don't know how far along that has come. Pretty far, I hear. But some don't want to be on the same page as others...they want to set the page, define the issues. So he is resented for that.

If you had not used the word you did, I probably would have not even noticed the post that much. It was an excellent interview, and your post, whether intentional or not, made it sound like he bombed when he most certainly did not.

Frankly a lot of people like to hear him speak. Our neighbors are Republicans, the moderate kind, and they always want to know when Dean is on TV. The media acts like assholes, but I don't think it hurts him. He usually comes off looking better than the interviewer who is acting like an asshole.

[Stinky The Clown]

72. Okay, I'll try to do this slowly ..... please follow .....

My last suggestion was that ***the DNC*** engage these surrogates. Not the DLC. Not the DCCC. Not the DSCC. Not the DPW, or the DFW or the VFW or the local ABC board. The D .... N ...... C. Okay? I'm not sure I understand the rest of your post.

Look, I'm on your side .... which is to say the DEMOCRATIC PARTY. I really am.

But you seem to have this fixation on Dean that blinds you to even a hint of criticism of him. That's not healthy and its not helpful. Isn't it better to self-correct than to be corrected? As a DEMOCRAT, that was exactly what my post was about. I have a concern about he way he's treated and the way he appears. I'm not blinded by a personality, at least I hope not. And, just to ensure clarity, as said in my OP and in my post immediately above, this is not a criticism of Howard Dean. It is, instead, a concern about a reality that I've observed - which is to say how he has come to be treated by the media.

You got all hung up on the word 'caricature' and that's unfortunate. By the way, in the context in which I used it, I stand by the word. The exact phrase was "They have reduced him to a caricature." I didn't say he was a caricature. It was a criticism of the mdeia. Not of Howard Dean. I suspect you read it badly simply because of your own personal filter. And that's okay. We all have filters. But at least please think before acting when you suspect someone is saying something against your guy.

On another point, if you can, I'd really apprerciate an answer to a veiled accusation you made against me. You have repeatedly suggested, in this thread and one a day or two ago, I am somehow a part of some conspiracy against Howard Dean. You've made similar accusations to others. My question, as clear as I know how to ask it is this:

What 'group' do you say I am a part of?

[madfloridian]

73. Don't try the word fixation either. I am fixated on change.

No, I never said you were part of a conspiracy. The caricature was often referred to here, and it does go back there to 04.

You do not have to talk to me slowly at all. I taught school many years, several degrees, graduated magna cum laude...hey, I am even pretty smart.

But I know party machinations when I see them. One of them is making sure we are not allowed to look too intelligent. That's a shame really.

You may not have realized it, but there is a desire by some in the party leadership for Dean to stay off the air and let them handle it all. I assume you did not know that.

I will not in any way be made to feel bad for criticizing you on the use of that word. On another forum someone posted about your post, and they asked if Dean had done badly today...because of what you posted. That was not fair.

I have seen things happen in this party I love. I saw the utter destruction of someone who was not acceptable in the eyes of the party. If you ever wonder about our loyalty to Dean...it is not the adoring kind of loyalty. It is fiercer than that, because we who supported him were damaged and put down as well. It was NOT done to others. It is a time that should be fading into the background, and I sure wish it would.

I don't think you should criticize me for your use of the word. You did refer to the media doing it, but you gave the impression he bombed.

Clark and Kerry and others have a clear field for 08, and that should make things better for those of us who frequent internet forums.

But there are some things that many of us will never get over...one of them is the way we were treated to such words as worship and fixated and adoration...I could think of many more.

So you don't need to slow down your speaking for me at all. I am really quite intelligent. I am loyal not to a person so much as to an idea...the idea that for the first time I saw a party in action toward one person. That brings a certain kind of loyalty that is far more powerful.

[Stinky The Clown]

74. In your post number 3, above, you said:

That was no caricature I saw on Hardball. The attacks here unending.

The attacks here are unending. The Clark people post insults to Kerry, and vice versa. They both blame Dean for something or the other everyday.

I live in a very Republican community, and they have a lot of respect for the guy you are calling a caricature.

Shame on you guys for what you are doing to each other and trying to do to someone who is not even running in 08.

Do not pretend this post was not an attack. It was.

You called my post an attack and then you postulate that it was foisted by a 'Clark person' or a 'Kerry person'.

I kinda see that as a veiled accusation of me being part of some conspiracy.

Calm down.

I'm not.

[madfloridian]

75. I am very calm. I am used to all this here.

The "get a grip" stuff, the "get real" stuff all goes over my head.

There was a post last night which was going after Kerry, and in the middle of the thread it brought Dean in as a culprit. That is the kind of thing I refer to.

I don't think that the various elements in the party are organized enough to have a conspiracy right now. So I don't think you are part of a conspiracy.

That was not a caricature on Hardball. If anything as I posted in the video thread of the interview....it was Norah who was the caricature...empty headed pretty girl. She looked foolish.

I had my say, and I was fair on this.

[Stinky The Clown]

76. Wait a minnit ......

I didn't mean (nor did I say or imply, actually) the ***interview*** was a caricature. I said pretty clearly it was the Allstars segement where **they** tried to make him a caricature ...... or at least the sure as hell tried.

As I said in the OP ... Dean was credible.

But of course, that got missed ....... whatever.

[Stinky The Clown]

80. I can't believe it took until 3.00 in the morning

and it all ends up as 'Never mind"???

[Jai4WKC08]

82. "The 'get a grip' stuff, the 'get real' stuff all goes over my head."

Maybe that's the problem.

When enough people tell you the same thing, it might be worth considering why.

[Totally Committed]

84. I could kiss you for making this point... or, trying to, at least!

Thanks, Jai.

TC

[madfloridian]

85. Maybe it shouldn't go over your head.

Maybe it is something that should offend people, but they have become so immunized by insulting words that it is ok.

[Totally Committed]

91. Madfloridian, I have said this several times before, and

you never acknowledge it, so I don't know if it ever resonates, but here it is for the last time:

There is absolutely no better advocate for Howard Dean than you. If you are not being paid for your loyalty and tenacity on his behalf, you should be because you are excellent at doing what you do -- informing, advocating, defending, and policy wonking. That having been said, your message is often (almost always, in fact) lost because you are so easily offended by words and manners. Then you immediately become defensive and your message is lost because people are forced to either defend themselves, apologize to you, try and get you to see their point -- whatever. It becomes about you, and you cannot be budged off your high horse. What a shame. You need to learn to roll with the punches better if you are to be more effective, or not have people see your threads as so problematic that they avoid them altogether (as I sometimes do for this very reason.) And, I like Howard Dean a lot.

Please think about this.

Thanks.

TC

[madfloridian]

92. I am not a paid consultant. That is so sad. Do you feel better?

I stayed here when certain supporters came on board here en masse and my friends got banned for standing for up for their candidate.

I was one of few who stayed just to show I would not be bullied away.

I think most who know my posts know better than to take your insult in that post seriously.

When our culture gets to where such things as you said to me are taken lightly, then we are on a slippery slope.

Sorry you feel that way about me. I do what I do, I post fair things.

I never hurt you, never would. Do you feel better now?

[Jai4WKC08]

94. Geez... TC was complimenting you!

Saying that you DESERVE to be paid, not that you are.

Fer cryin' out loud, you can't even see it when people are going overboard (imo) to be nice.

[madfloridian]

96. You two are very good. No, that was no compliment at all.

It was about the biggest insult one could say to a fellow Democrat. This is lovely stuff going on here.

[Totally Committed]

99. I meant that as an honest and sincere compliment!

What I said was money can't buy the kind of loyalty and defense you give Howard, fercripessake.

It's the last compliment you get from me.

You are either unable to drag yourself out of this confrontational pose of yours, or you do this on purpose. Whichever, I'm opting out at this point.

TC

[madfloridian]

95. When I am told to "get a grip", it is personal and it is about me.

Then to say I am making it about me...it is correct. You made it about me when you said those words to me.

This post used the word "caricature", you excused that as ok, most in this thread see nothing wrong with talking about fellow Democrats that way.

I was told "get a grip" "get real", when I questioned the use of that word.

[Jai4WKC08]

97. Because "caricature" is not an insult n/t

[DFW]

78. I'm always hesitant to get involved

in discussions about Dean, as I'm not objective on the subject.
I have known him for years, since way before he was known
nationally, and always appreciated the way he was direct and
clear about where he stood.

His current job is NOT to be out doing every right-wing talk show
on the air to try and rebut a message that the right-wing media
are dead set upon delivering, no matter what their "guest
(spelled v-i-c-t-i-m)" has to say. These right-wing talk "hosts"
are packaged as "hard-hitting" impartials, because that is what
sells. Their agenda is scripted in advance, and their behavior
toward people like Dean suggests they have been drilled in advance
on what to say, how to say it, and how often to break in (frequently).

Dean's job as DNC chairman is to make every effort to get out the vote
to the point where we can retake Congress, and in two years, the white
House. The one thing he cannot do, but MUST be done, IMO, is to
eliminate the use of electronic voting machines in our elections.
Until that is done, I really don't see us ever winning another presidential
election, or, for that matter, retaking Congress with any kind of workable
margin. Republicans will continue to pull "surprise upset victories" as long
as machines made by them and programmed by them are used to tally our votes.

[mmonk]

79. Yes

Because as every lie of the republicans become obvious, the better he looks and the better the chances people can see our media for what it is.

[Adelante]

83. Anyways..

I do think Dean is a great spokesman for the Democratic Party. As I said upthread, his approval numbers beat the Congressional leaders and for sure the President. This says to me that no matter how the media works to misrepresent and, yes, caricaturize him, he manages to break through that to a good extent. In fact, the more people do see him on these shows and hear him deliver the Dem message, I suspect the more he is appreciated as a Dem leader and as a real human being. It's not his most important function, however, which has to be party rebuilding and vote building, and at this he is superb. I have nothing but admiration for the 50 state job he's doing.

The important question you pose is could the party use a stable of expert spokespeople at the ready, on call, versed in policy domestic and foreign, fully prepared to do battle, and directed by the Dem agenda -- resoundingly the answer is YES.

I think this is done some on an individual basis. I know Clark and Dean consult on message, Clark and Congressional leaders consult on message, so I assume others do, too. But I am not aware of a formal message team who is sent out there on call by the party. This would be a very good thing.

[madfloridian]

87. My opinion.

This mostly seems to be saying Dean is on TV too much, and that others want more airtime.

That could have been said without insulting someone who is working hard to change things in the party.

[mtnsnake]

88. Yeah, I think he's the best we have. He knows how to get media attention

when he wants and he's not afraid to get it by busting Republicans chops. Dean doesn't pull many punches like most of our other spokespeople do. The rest of our spokespeople are way too careful.

[salin]

89. Would this be different with anyone else? This is what the rw media

show has been doing since Clinton first looked like he might win in 1992. It is what they *do*. Treat as mundane. Ignore. Ridicule over the miniscule. Repeat repeat repeat.

Same thing goes for whoever becomes the dem candidate in 2008. Regardless of the candidate - this endless media game of dismissiveness, ridicule of the mundane, on and on and on.

We have to prepare for it. We have to do better promotion to get more varied dem and liberal voices out into the media. We have to (and are beginning to) see a growth of more neutral to liberal media sources to counter the rw echo chamber.

Point is the issue is the Media, not the spokesperson - and would be the same regardless of the spokesperson - unless the spokesperson bent over backwards to be supportive of bushco then the media would only ridicule, dismiss, etc. part of the time. We need longer term strategies to counter what will otherwise be an endless pattern. A fifteen + year old pattern.

[tishaLA]

93. I echo this sentiment

I still don't know why we haven't caught up in the media manipulation game because, as pathetic as it is, that's what we need.

Sometimes I think the best way to deal with the dumbass "interviewers" on Hardball, etc., is just to laugh at the stupidity of their questions--when they bother to actually ask questions, that is. Often, they just say things as if they were facts and expect the interviewee to respond. They're much more interested in people hearing what they have to say than in what the interviewee has to say.

[blm]

101. Exactly what I said in my post -

less elegantly, as usual, but the exact same point. ;)

[columbusdem]

100. It's about the $$$

As the party chairman, Dean's job is not so much to be a spokesperson as it is to raise raise the big moolah, as proved so capable of doing during the '04 primaries.