so they are just "Immigrants" now.

[acmejack]

De facto legal status has been bestowed upon them, all eleven million (estimated) of them, because they demanded it. It says a hell of a lot when a group of non citizens can demand and receive the attention of our so called legislators like this when regular citizens can't get the time of day from them.

But I am a bigot and wrong since I think that it is criminal to violate the laws and then demand the the rights of a law abiding citizen. Since this position puts me at odds with the majority of people here and I simply cannot adopt their viewpoints, I must give up. Obviously there is no place for me & my provincial ideas in this party any longer, or in this Country, so you all have fun, I'll be watching this go down...

[shamrock]

1. Hey acmejack.....

Just for the record...you're not alone. There are many here who feel as you do. Myself included. This has purposely been made to sound like a race issue rather than an illegal immigration issue.

[TahitiNut]

3. Making it a "race issue" serves the corporatist interests.

Divide and conquer. :puke:

It's really handy to ignore the fact that it's folks with the lowest incomes, disproportionally black and Hispanic citizens and legal residents, whose jobs are sold to the lowest bidders. It's really handy to ignore the economic oppression in the other countries, predominantly Mexico where racism is endemic, has been facilitated by the same plantation corporatists who drive labor compensation into the sewer. Even more bizarre, Mexico is an oil-exporting country whose wealthiest just keep getting wealthier. No oil-exporting country should have the humongous poverty rate that Mexico has.

[acmejack]

7. I rest my case.

I would think my credentials were established to the point that there would be no need for me to defend myself against charges of being anti worker, or racist, or pro corporatist, or any of the any of the any other things my erst while compatriots would chide me for. I still insist if you are so concerned about the "workers", that there are a shitload of them right here that are in a terrible fix that you are jettisoning in favor of your brand new friends.

As I have said before I will defer to the wiser minds on this, since there are obviously so many of them here. I am just glad I am at the end of my life, I couldn't deal with being a young person in this world. I simply don't understand, illegal immigrants-"we are not criminals"- Juan Gutierrez, latino movement USA "My ass" acmejack

How quickly my young friends rush to correct me, I have earned no credibility over the years. Thank you for setting me straight, those of you who rushed to explain how liberal workers struggles must work. Those of us who have participated in those struggles for a half century know very little of those things. We also know nothing of the Latino community having spent the majority of our lives on the border in Texas. The dynamics are considerably more complicated than one might initially assume, dividing even the Hispanic community.

[TahitiNut]

8. I agree ... and, at 62, find myself in the same boat.

I don't think anyone has an ethical obligation to offer 'credentials' against charges of racism, jingoism, or corporatism. Such ad homonyms betray those who fling them as bereft of both ethics and critical thinking skills - the most intellectually dishonest of our herd. At the same time, there's a kind of ageism that crops up - as though 'our generation' is "over the hill" or "embedded in old thinking." It's an issue that, in 'discussions,' brings out our very worst.

[PsN2Wind]

10. I'm with you TahitiNut, though a bit older

I think many of the posters here that are pro-immigration, be it legal or illegal, and call for open borders, are the bigots. Only they are bigoted against their fellow citizens that haven't their education or secure employment and so are not worthy of the protections that they should have against having to compete against foreign nationals, in this country illegally, for their livelihoods.
There was tremendous outrage awhile back against workers from India and elsewhere being granted visas to come here and take tech jobs. There is little outrage here for people coming here, illegally, to compete for entry level jobs. After all those menial jobs are not the kind of work that they would do.

[TahitiNut]

15. The interesting thing about the "open border" advocacy is ....

... it seems to be solely unilateral. Absolutely no 'discussion' I've seen condition it on any reciprocity. That's truly insane - a knee-jerk posture that involves the brain at an autonomic level, involving no reasoning processes whatsoever.

I'm appalled at the idea of a labor force with no voting rights and subject to deportation upon the loss of their job - quite easily accomplished under "employment at will" doctrines. We already have a large part of the low-end labor force that are citizens without voting rights: millions of ex-felons (disproportionally black males) deprived of the vote in states which, ironically enough, also employ the larger share of illegal immigrants. Smoothing the path for current illegal immigrants to citizenship does absolutely nothing to stem the flow of millions more. Until corporations are subjected to draconian penalties for repeated violations, and until enormous pressure is placed on Mexico to enact reforms for far greater economic justice within their own boudaries, we're shit-out-of-luck. The corporatists continue feed upon underpaid labor, both here and in (other) banana republics - profiting from human suffering.

[alarimer]

39. We should be outraged at the people who hire them

for basically slave wages and not at the people themselves.

[shamrock]

24. A point:

In regards to this: "terrible fix that you are jettisoning in favor of your brand new friends."

Some who are supporting illegal immigrants, are not supporting "brand new friends", they are supporting family. We have many people on this board who are Latinos or descendants of Latinos (some illegal), or married to Latino's, as I am. I try very hard to keep this in mind as I write. I have many 'connections' to Latinos myself, but my FIRST concern has to be for the best interests of THIS country and the citizens and legal immigrants here.

[texanwitch]

2. I agree with you. You are not the only one here.

I am not a bigot and neither are you. I will be doing some shopping on Monday and I don't think I will be the only one.

[PsN2Wind]

4. There are a lot of posters here

that have much greater empathy for the "huddled masses" than they do their fellow citizens. But there are some of us that feel that importing labor accomplishes much the same thing as exporting jobs, though at much greater cost. I hope they are prepared to see the population of the U.S. increase by ten percent or more, suddenly, as the newly-minted legal immigrants assert their rights of family reunification and begin bringing in their spouses and children.

[QC]

9. Sorry, but ordinary blue-collar Americans are not exotic enough

to interest most "progressives." Besides, quite a few of them are melanin-deficient penised-person oppressors who like NASCAR and shop at WalMart, and are thus beyond the pale, so to speak.

[PsN2Wind]

11. Great point!!

I never thought of that but it does make sense. Persons born, or in this country legally, haven't been sufficiently oppressed to garner the attention or empathy of the purest of progressives. They might have very limited education or skills but the fact that they are citizens or legal residents means they aren't worthy of our consideration.

[NaturalHigh]

36. You've got that right.

So many of them need a "cause" to be pissed off about all the time, and ordinary Americans just aren't worthy. If we work hard, take care of our families, pay our taxes, and obey the law, we're just boring.

[Bobbie47]

5. I'm with you in I've

been called a lot of things in my life but never a bigot. I feel your pain.

[leftstreet]

6. It's ironic that International Workers Day originated in Chicago

Born out of international solidarity and protests of the events (Haymarket Riots) in Chicago. In the late 1880s Grover Cleveland made the "US" Labor Day the first Monday in September. They didn't want American workers using May Day to commemorate the worker riots, or identifying with international workers. So we "picnic" and relax in September, rather than taking to the streets to stand with global labor in May.

It's too bad the undocumented workers fell for the spin coming from La Raza and the Catholic church. They should have marched for higher wages, safer working conditions, job protections. (Where will La Raza and the Catholic church be when 20 million more workers are here to compete with these marchers for THEIR jobs?)

Politicians and special interest groups are co-opting a day when American laborers (citizen and undocumented) should be standing in unity with laborers all over the globe.

Through much of the 1870's and 1880's Chicago was a leading center of labor activism and radical thought. Early in 1886 labor unions were beginning a movement for an eight-hour day. Union activists called a one day general strike in Chicago. On May 1 many Chicago workers struck for shorter hours. An active group of radicals and anarchists became involved in the campaign. Two days later a shooting and one death occurred during a riot at the McCormick Reaper plant when police tangled with the strikers.


On May 4 events reached a tragic climax at Haymarket Square, an open market near Des Plaines Ave. and Randolph St., where a protest meeting was called to denounce the events of the preceding day at the McCormick Works. Speakers exhorted the crowd from a wagon which was used for a makeshift stage.


Commemoration of the Haymarket tragedy has, at times, been as contentious as the event itself. Worldwide appeals for clemency for the condemned Haymarket martyrs led to the establishment of May 1st as an International Workers' Day. Though May Day has been commemorated as a labor holiday in many countries, it was never adopted in the United States.

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/timeline/haymarket.html

[nicehuman]

12. I also agree with you Acmejack

I've been keeping my mouth shut because I don't want to be accused of racism. By why is it racist to expect that immigration laws be followed. There are countless people around the world who could benefit from coming here. What about Dafur refugees? Just because you sneak in should not put you ahead of other people who are trying to do it right. My friend who is in the process of becoming a citizen has been waiting years.

[doc03]

13. I'm with you and I'm no bigot either, I just think

the laws should be enforced and it's the President's job to protect and defend the US.

[AzDar]

14. Illegal is ILLEGAL. If you are here illegally, you are a freaking criminal

whether you like the terminology or not.
People who deal illegal drugs are criminals, whether or not one agrees with the Draconian drug laws in this country...most are just trying to improve the quality of life for themselves and their families, when do the Dealers march?
And the prostitutes? And the burglars?....

[bluedog]

19. F US can spy.wiretap on US citizens

F US can spy.wiretap on US citizens


then they better damn well check these illegals out at these protests!...either that or ABOLISH the ICE and INS........hell abolish all laws........if we have to follow the laws of the land.........then the ILLEGALS should also.....

[IndianaGreen]

23. Let's start deporting all Europeans out of America

White people arrived on this land without visas, or work permits. They didn't learn the language or respect the local customs. They stole land that did not belong to them. They brought their filthy intolerant religion with them. They spread racism and disease.

Yep, they are all illegal and should be sent back to Europe!

[AzDar]

26. Following that logic, why don't we just de-volve back to the primordial

soup from which we emerged, as I'm sure we displaced SOME life-form in the process?
Straw-man notwithstanding...illegal is illegal is illegal.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Like I said, let's start with the white man!

illegal is illegal is illegal

Give my regards to Tony Blair!

[AzDar]

28. Non-sequitur... n/t

[SaveElmer]

16. Who is really to blame here...?

The "immigrant" who uproots himself from his country, leaves family and friends, moves to a foreign country where they do not speak the language, knowing they will be extralegal with basically no rights...all to be able to earn enough money to feed himself, and to send to the family he left behind.

Or

The country whose corporations are exploiting workers in his native country, perpetuating them in a cycle of poverty from which they cannot escape, the corrupt government officials these corporations use to aid them in exploiting these workers, and the corrupt employers here in the states who pay shit for temporary work at poverty wages, jobs they refuse to give to citizens at decent wages, encouraging this type of immigration?

Perhaps our wrath, and the focus of our efforts should be on the latter, not the former. It is possible to advocate tough immigration enforcement, while recognizing we as a country are culpable in the situation these folks find themselves in, and perhaps to show compassion to those we have exploited that are here already!

[AzDar]

20. Both groups are to blame, aren't they? Break the law, there are

(or SHOULD be) consequences.
But I do not feel that we should reward those who've entered this country illegally in ANY way.
What a slap in the face to those who have bothered to do it LEGALLY!

[SaveElmer]

21. Sorry...I disagree...

These people were simply doing what they needed to provide for their families. It seems the height of hypocrisy to tell them on one hand that it is illegal to come here, and on the other encourage them to come here through the policies we pursue. They are here because we forced them here.

[AzDar]

22. I don't know if you're using the Royal ' We', or not...I'VE never

encouraged anyone to come here illegally, nor have I (knowingly) supported those who have.
My point being that while illegal immigrants may be "simply doing what they needed to provide for their families", the same could be said of many (non-sociopathic) criminals.
Should it be tolerated? Nope. Rewarded? Absolutely not.

[SaveElmer]

31. I'm using "we" meaning the U.S....

And I do not view them as criminals...

[bluedog]

17. I agree.and I'm not going to keep my mouth shut! n/t

[El Fuego]

18. Thanks for a voice of reason.

As I've said before, if most of us want to relocate to another country, we'll respect the laws of that country and do it legally. If you don’t respect the laws of this country, you can’t demand your rights in this country.

Illegal immigrants apparently have more rights than I do as an American citizen, since they don’t have to recognize sovereign nations. They’ve got super-rights. For them the world has no borders and they can freely go anywhere they choose, and they are not bound by any national laws. BUT, if I want to enter THEIR native countries, I have to produce a passport and get a visa.

That being said, like most people I tend to "look the other way" at illegals, and I respect the fact that they are just people trying to live their lives and get by. BUT when they start "demanding their rights," they've gone too far. They have no rights since they're here illegally.

[Finder]

34. "They have no rights... "

All humans have rights. I think the nationalistic tone of many is what comes across as bigoted.

[El Fuego]

37. . . . no citizens' rights under U.S. laws

"Rights" in the legal sense is not an abstract concept. The 14th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States defines citizenship, and the concept is codified in Title 8 of the U.S. Code.

I suppose it is nationalistic to bring up the U.S. Constitution. :eyes:

[Left Below]

25. The Amnesty/Open Border people are killing other progressive

goals unwittingly. Besides labor support they will seriously damage Universal Healthcare initiatives.

Americans will not give illegal foreign workers equal status in healthcare. Call it bigoted or practical but healthcare rationing is coming and we cannot provide artificial hearts for every supine diabetic.

[IndianaGreen]

30. The real issue: do you support McCain-Kennedy or Tancredo?

No one in the Latino community has objected to the McCain-Kennedy immigration bill, the problem is the Tancredo bill that House Republicans are pushing to drive a wedge in an election year. Add to that the old reliable GOD-GUNS-GAYS wedge issues and you got yourself another GOP victory.

Aren't we tired of being manipulated by the biggest criminal cabal in our nation's history?

[leftstreet]

32. None of the bills protect these marchers from 20 million more

waiting to come here and compete for THEIR jobs.

All the proposed bills are corporate friendly attempts toward a permanent, low wage worker class.

[bluedog]

33. No bill protects American workers either (outsourcing) n/t

[leftstreet]

41. Surely our representatives are working on one

:sarcasm:

[Zodiak]

29. This is a great way to divide liberals and populists

Being of the populist camp, I identify a lot more with poor Americans than I do with poor illegal immigrants.

Acmejack, you are not a bigot and wrong....your priorities are straight as far as I am concerned.

We should all be pissed that the "powers that be" are pitting poor people against each other.

[TriMetFan]

35. Acmejack I think you might want to read my post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2597629

[Karenina]

38. It's QUITE telling

how the rancor is directed at the victims of NAFTA, yet NOT ONE EMPLOYER has been targeted or brought to task. Not ONE company has been fined MILLIONS for ignoring U.S. labor laws. I've not read ONE ACCOUNT of Americans identifying those who profit from illegal immigration, surrounding their offices, DEMANDING ALL WORKERS' RIGHTS and that THEY be held responsible. It's just OH SO EASY to look askance at the scapegoat.
Great going! You'll ALL be slaves before long.

Divide and conquer. Appeals to your subconscious racism effectively cloak the "elites'" CLASSISM which knows only GREED. Your idealogical identification with a CLASS to which YOU DO NOT BELONG blinds you to the obvious manipulation.

[Mountainman]

40. I have listened to a lot of immigrants on KPFK the past few weeks and I

feel that we need to allow them to become citizens and over look the illegality of how they got here. Most of us, if we were to switch places with them or were in their shoes would have done the same thing. They came here seeking a better quality of life for their kids. That is something all of our parents worked for. To deny them citizenship means deportation to a life of never ending poverty. I can not in good conscience do that to anyone. We have enough resources. If we were to work together we could make a better country for us all. We could use the immigrants to help build a party that stands for social justice.

As our piece of the pie seems to get smaller and smaller we begin to lash out at each other. Instead I think we should welcome the immigrants as seekers of the same just system that we all seek. Join with them in the fight for a living wage, health care for all and a better quality of life. We have 11 million potential liberals if we don't turn on them.

It is my belief that the deep seated reason so many of us are anti illegal immigrant is because we are afraid of the cultural changes they bring. The children of the illegals who are born here and are citizens watch MTV and interact with all types of kids. The learn English easily and it becomes they native tongue.

I really believe that the fears we have about the illegals are unfounded. Why not welcome them as fellow soldiers in the fight for social justice and a better way of life for all of us.