Could it be this religion thing about Dean is fueled by a Dem campaign?

[madfloridian]

I smell a lot of desperation, and two posts here today call Dean a fruit cake and a nut case.

I did a search of the other blogs, and I fear this is going to get much worse. Since other people on here can do the same searches I can, I don't want to link. This is being fueled and encouraged by other Democrats.

I expect attacks like this from the GOP, but getting them from our own party is so much like the way Bush did McCain.

It really makes sense to use religion against a man who tries to keep it private, a man who fully believes in separation of church and state.

Dean has excited many new voters, and our meet-up has increased greatly this month. I find that I am now judging the others by their supporters, and that is sad. It has been proven there has been a big influx here, and we who support Dean have either had to back off or defend him against merciless attacks.

Is it possible that if our own party brings Dean down before the primary that we could write in his name? I have wondered about that, seeing the lack of choice remaining and feeling the anger I now feel over these mindless attacks.

[Name removed]

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[madfloridian]

3. Thanks, I will take that as a compliment.

If hatred is political savvy, then I want no part of it.

[Name removed]

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[Scott Lee]

27. In this election, it's more like "shooting yourself in the foot"

but hey, no one's stopping you from excersizing that "political reality of yours. Need some more ammo?

[edzontar]

2. I am sure this is the case....

The stink of poop on Christmas morning.

I think all of this is backfiring, too....I am MUCH more committed to Dean..and much LESS favorably disposed to candidates like Clark and Kerry--after reading these lumps of Xmas coal.

[madfloridian]

4. Yes, it is sad.

Also I think everyone has me on ignore now.

[bearfartinthewoods]

58. i don't have you on ignore

these posts provide and endless amount of both amusement and amazement for me.

amusement because it's funny to see how desperately people will try and blame other people for dean's mistakes and amazement because it seems that there are still some people buying it.

[windansea]

5. laughable

"It really makes sense to use religion against a man who tries to keep it private, a man who fully believes in separation of church and state."

Dean himself stated he's going to start talking about God now when he stumps in the South....at least he's honest about it.

so who's using religion????

[madfloridian]

9. You are seeing this very simplistically, not seeing the full picture.

Since the day Judy Woodruff hammered him about how religious Bush was, this has been going on. Dean did not start it.

Check out the blogs.

[MoonRiver]

25. And Dean took the repuke bait! Now he's under attack by people

who are committed to separation of church and state. Most of we Dems don't believe in using religion for political gain. This is a slippery slope. If you doubt this just look at the extremist Muslim states. No good Democrat should promote such crap. It's fine if Dean is religious (I am myself). He just shouldn't exploit his faith and encourage a 'kirche uber alles' mind-set.

[Scott Lee]

28. Where was your outrage over Preaching Wesley Clark's photos?

You remember, bringing down the holy spirit in that Harlem Church?

Oder, das es also nicht Der Kirche Uber Alles?

[MoonRiver]

31. I don't know what you're talking about! I never saw those photos.

Would you mind linking them so I can appraise?

[Scott Lee]

35. They were posted right here at DU

I'm searching the web for them now (I cannot search DU). Rest assured, there he was, testifyn' for the cameras with his hand in the air.

Preach on, Brother Wesley!

[maddezmom]

37. yes, they were posted here

and not sure about testifying, but he was partaking in the service.

[SahaleArm]

49. Unlike pandering sucka** - He was singing along with the congregation n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

66. Clark was acting like the Baptist he was raised as,

singing and waving a hand in the air. If he hadn't been raised Baptist, your criticism would make some sense.

He and his wife currently attend a Presbyterian church, I think, but there are Presbyterian churches that take a Charismatic approach. There is a Catholic Charismatic movement as well, and Wesley Clark became a Catholic as an adult , so may have been involved in that. But he was definitely brought up in the Southern Baptist tradition. You need to learn more about religious practices today if you're going to critique candidate's church appearances.

I have seen photos of Howard Dean attending a black church and he doesn't look very comfortable (I think it's physical, I think he literally has a stiff neck) but he is really trying to get into the spirit, almost dancing in the aisles. In that instance, is Dean pandering? He was raised an Episcopalian and it is not their tradition, nor that of Congregationalists, to raise their arms or move their bodies in praise. But I'll give him a pass on this, he may have been moved by the Holy Spirit in that black church. I do think a statement that he will talk about his commitment to Jesus in the South is pandering, this commitment having apparently never been mentioned in Iowa, where it is not any more unacceptable to discuss religion in public than it is in the South. Talking Jesus in the South is a replacement for the failed Confederate flag strategy and will work no better.

[TLM]

46. Well did you see this debate.... where Clark said...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3607144

And I think that we as a Democratic Party have got to appeal and recognize the importance of a spiritual dimension.

And I certainly do. I do pray. I do believe in the good Lord. And he’s been a very important influence in my life. And I’m not afraid to say that.

[mikehiggins]

32. No outrage

Clark didn't talk about it, he just did it.

Didn't make a big deal of it, either.

Didn't tell anyone he was going to talk about his beliefs in the South.

Just went to a church with a Congressman and a former Ambassador and just worshipped with the congregation.

Low key. Matter of fact. Authentic.

[Scott Lee]

36. None dare call it "pandering"

...except for those of us that know a pandering photo op when we see it.

Ego te absolvo.

[maddezmom]

38. authentic is right

when asked about religion, Clark has been vocal. He doesn't push it based on the audience.

[Scott Lee]

41. So what audience was Dean "pushing"....Christians?

If so, why would Clark comment on his religious beliefs as well (which he has done on the major media)? I mean, if what you suggest is true, wouldn't Clark respond by politely refusing to talk about religion, out of fear of pandering to one sect or another?

[SahaleArm]

50. On Christmas Day?

You've got to be kidding me.

[Scott Lee]

59. Christians don't celebrate Christmas?

You've got to be kidding ME!

[bearfartinthewoods]

64. most of them don't celebrate by announcing their intent to use

religion for political purposes.

[windansea]

71. heh heh!

:nuke:

[TLM]

47. Oops guess you missed this...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3607144

And I think that we as a Democratic Party have got to appeal and recognize the importance of a spiritual dimension.

And I certainly do. I do pray. I do believe in the good Lord. And he’s been a very important influence in my life. And I’m not afraid to say that.

[bearfartinthewoods]

56. errr......that church was in one of the carolinas.

errr...why would you assume it was in harlem? cause there were black folks there?

[DemBones DemBones]

67. South Carolina, and Scott Lee has been told this repeatedly.

Black DUers have also asked him if he assumed it was in Harlem because of the black congregation.

Did you see when Scott started a thread with two photos showing a mostly black crowd at a college in South Carolina where Dean spoke? He crowed about it being PROOF of black support for Dean.

I pointed out that the college's student body happens to be 100% black, and students tend to attend events on their campuses, but he never acknowledged my post -- why do you suppose that was?

[bearfartinthewoods]

70. yes...i remember.....

that's what i like about DU. I didn't know it was a black college and could have been mislead if it weren't for you. of course, the picture of the white people holding the signs saying African Americans for dean was pretty self evident.

[maddezmom]

6. it's being discussed because there was an article this am

in the Boston Globe. Don't know about blogs since I don't go to them unless linked from here.

[madfloridian]

8. That is part of what is being pushed by other campaigns.

Check it out.

[maddezmom]

11. could you PM me the link?

[madfloridian]

15. Search at the Clark blog.

Use Dean, then various terms, including some of the user names.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Democrats for Bush

Some of the people behind the negative spin about anything Dean are the same ones that are saying they would vote for Bush if Dean becomes the Democratic nominee.

The irony is that they are the same ones that chided people for voting for Nader in 2000, but now it is okay to vote for Bush.

:puke:

[BootinUp]

10. Its a nine way street.

Everyone has to do their part to keep the debate civilized.

Nasty attacks are being launched from all sides, so lets not pretend Dean is the only victim or even the most important victim.

[maddezmom]

13. true enough

the gloves are coming off for all campaigns. No one is safe from any attack at this point. And it's only going to get hotter between all campaigns.

[SadEagle]

22. Very true

And certainly many attacks on your candidate were so low I don't have adequate vocabulary for naming them. But as to the most important victim --- well, Dean is the most important one for Dean supporters, Gen. Clark is the most important one for his supporters, and so on.

[bearfartinthewoods]

12. on this board it's fueled by me

at least in part. and i do it under no flag but my own because i am totally convinced that dean cannot beat bush and i will point out all the reasons that fuel that belief as long as i can.

this was started by dean,,in an interview. you can't try and spin this as an attck to try and deflect criticism. well you can obviously try but it 'ain't' gonna fly.

soon or later "you'd better get used to it" as we were all warned about dean's style six looooong months ago.

[madfloridian]

14. The religion thing is as unfair as the deal against McCain in SC.

You know that, you know religion should not be fueling these attacks.....we have a president now who wants a theocracy. In fact he almost has one.

And here go other Dean opponents' supporters using religion against a man who believes it should be private. Shame on you.

[SadEagle]

17. There was a person in LBN that went as far...

... as saying Dean can't talk about his religion because he didn't force his children to follow it. That one didn't sound like a Democrat to me at all... (But the poster did have 100+ posts)

[bearfartinthewoods]

18. he gave a FREAKING INTERVIEW ABOUT RELIGION

have you even read it?

dean says" he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in his speeches as he stumps in the South."

read it again

he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in his speeches as he stumps in the South.

and now it's someone elses fault that "a man who believes it should be private." is being called to task?????

[madfloridian]

21. He is being forced to defend his views.

You know perfectly well what it says.

[bearfartinthewoods]

63. defend his views against who or what?

who was attacking him on his religious views to cause him to defend himself and give this interview?

[Cheswick2.0]

40. twist away BF

you know what you are doing is counter-productive to the cause of getting bush out of the Whitehouse. Twist away. Like I said before, your candidate must really suck to have to resort to this kind of smear.

[bearfartinthewoods]

42. just bugs the shit outta you that i won't hang an avatar so you know who

to bash in revenge doesn't it. HA!

[edzontar]

65. Why not just come out and tell us?

I am sure we would all like to know who your "mystery candidate" is...

It would be a nice change to hear something positive and constructive from your corner.

[TLM]

48. CLark says...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3607144

And I think that we as a Democratic Party have got to appeal and recognize the importance of a spiritual dimension.

And I certainly do. I do pray. I do believe in the good Lord. And he’s been a very important influence in my life. And I’m not afraid to say that.



Care to explain the double standard... why it is wrong for Dean to say essentially what Clark already said in the debates?

[Scott Lee]

60. And I have weeds in my garden!

So??

[Cheswick2.0]

39. your excuse is pathetic

your candidate must be in real trouble.

[bearfartinthewoods]

43. i've done nothing to be excused for just posting the words of your poor

excuse of a candidate.

instead of making an intelligent outreach to poor southerners of all races on the basis of healthcare and education, dean whips everyone
into a frenzy with the ole stars and bars controversy.

now, this man who believes religion is a private thing ANNOUNCES in and interview that he's gonna be mentioning religion to the folks down south.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=26003

my candidates don't have black prechers telling them to stop using black churches at photo opps to try and pretend that black people, like the preachers wife, actually like or support dean.

your candidate is the one that is twisting....
"Hilson noted that a photo taken during a visit by front-runner Howard Dean (search) appeared in an issue of Newsweek. The photo showed Dean standing beside Ms. Hilson, but the caption did not indicate the picture was taken in New Hampshire, and it was used in a story about Dean seeking the Southern African-American vote.

"When the Dean people came they said, 'Can you be at the door and have your wife with you?'" Hilson said. Hilson said a visit by Carol Moseley Braun (search), in contrast, was not preceded by a request to have certain people on hand. "They simply came into the church and took seats," he said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=26544

[TLM]

51. Those who do nothing but attack do not want to tell you who they support...

because either doing so would expose their hypocrasy... or they support Bush. I do not pretend to know which is the case in this circumstance, but it is pretty obviously one or the other.

[bearfartinthewoods]

55. and...bereft of anything substantive to say in defense of dean, another

dean supporter is left with nothing but personal attacks...

big surprise eh?

you guys better work on that. calling a pubbie a bush supporter won't really work in the general election, will it?

ON EDIT...calling an agnostic a hypocrite in matters of religion doesn't really work well now does it?

[Scott Lee]

61. When you actually post an issue of substance, we'll test your theory!

..and a happy new year!

[Name removed]

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[Zeke]

20. Meow In The Morning...

Bitch-Kitty speaks truth.

But allow me to add: many of the Dean attacks are coming from Republicrat Gephardt.

Drowning me will even reach for the tip of a sword...

[bitchkitty]

23. This is true -

and I'm awaiting the disclosure of the names of the people behind that despicable Osama ad.

Merry Xmas!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Right wing desperation.

It is, and should be laughable. Dean will probably win and the "moderates" will hope for a Bush win so they can crow that Dean was "too liberal" and try to move the party even further to the right than the DLC has.

In a way, it's nice to see the rightists writhe in frustration.

[BootinUp]

24. Is that what you really think?

That kinda hurts that you would say it. There's a lot of moderates giving time and money to defeat Bush.

[SadEagle]

26. He said "moderates" not moderates.

note the quotes.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[Scott Lee]

30. Dude, you put the "Hype" into hyperbole

Thanks for the laughs - it really is amusing as hell! Merry Christmas.

[Gman]

33. Thanks! I try hard!

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

[White Mountain]

53. Dean is no Jim Jones

Now drink your Koolaide

[Jerseycoa]

34. What I think it is

Speaking for nobody else, no campaign, no candidate, no blog, no nothin' but myself.

I like people to be quiet about religion. (I wish the whole world would shut up about religion.) I believe very much in separation of church and state. I respect Gov. Dean's right to have religion or not, and to speak or not about it.

But I also remember a debate in which Clark was asked if he was a Christian, when he answered, "Yes, I am," and talked a bit about faith, there was a hue and cry the next day here on DU. One of the bragging points of some Dean supporters was how "secular" a campaign Dean runs in comparison. Last night, when the first word of the Boston Globe article drifted in, the first response was, it can't be true, Dean runs a secular campaign.

Clark as a Christian is not running any less of a secular campaign than Dean as a Christian. But when Clark stepped up and owned his faith, he was bashed for it. Now that Dean has done the same, he is "bravely" fighting the right wing fundies, engaging in practical politics and, unless we elect him president, I will end up under a burqua.

What you are feeling as an attack on Dean and/or his religion is more of a reaction to the Deanspin here on DU than anything.

As for the new less than secular strategy, did nobody see this coming? That's got to be the real question. Maybe if there were a bit less glorification along the way, these falls won't skin the knees. And that goes for my camp, too.

If you think "fruit cake and a nut case" is bad, how did you like HIV case? Don't hold other campaigns responsible for individuals and the stupid things they say and I won't, either. Same for searching other people's blogs. I don't do it. I don't believe many Dean supporters do it. Anybody who does do it, shouldn't expect to hear much good about their candidate.

[TexasPatriot]

62. that seems a reasonable response

however - i think at some level we democrats have to draw the line on the circular firing squad somewhere. Personally, as a fellow Clark Supporter, if Dean wants to stand up and talk about religion thats fine by me.

I'm sure there are some Dean Supporters that were upset by Clarks comments, and some Dean Supporters who are now just as upset by Dean's, and vice versa all around. When any of our candidates says something remotely positive, we supporters eat it up - and crow about it to the tops of the trees. This isnt any different.

I think the question that's going to be asked is whether any of the candidates is doing it as a political machination - and whether it will be perceived as such, or presented as such by the media, etc... I think Dean's phrasing in this case probably plays to that concern.

I look forward to seeing what Dean has to say as he travels south, look forward to how the press spins it all, and to see whether it plays positively or negatively in the court of public opinion.

[TLM]

44. I find it very hypocritical because the other candidates... all of them

have expressed religious views prior to Dean's comments.


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3607144

And I think that we as a Democratic Party have got to appeal and recognize the importance of a spiritual dimension.

And I certainly do. I do pray. I do believe in the good Lord. And he’s been a very important influence in my life. And I’m not afraid to say that.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/26/elec04.prez.faith.reut/

Missouri Rep. Richard Gephardt's strong Baptist beliefs helped him through the trauma of his son's struggle with a deadly form of childhood cancer. On the campaign trail, he calls Matt, now in his 30s, as "a gift of God."

...

Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, is a practicing Catholic who says he and his wife, ketchup heiress Teresa Heinz Kerry, "debate and struggle" with some of their feelings about public policy versus the teachings of the church.

[White Mountain]

52. JESUS for VP

Dean-Jesus in '04.

Southerners will gobble it up. How's Clark gonna one up him with that choice of running mate?

[bread_and_roses]

54. I am not a Democrat,

not part of any campaign, and I don't (and won't) read any "blogs." And I imagine there are plenty others who don't need a "blog" to tell them that playing to the religious right, who seek Theocracy, subverts democratic values in a secular State.

(A): If he believes it's private(A):
why is he (B) talking about how important Jesus is in his life? Why is he out there talking about using this "private" matter to
(C). garner votes?

A does not = B+C. Once again, incoherence arises from expediency.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

57. Dean initiated this himself to begin to cover up his secularism

Mr. Bait and Switch is at it again.

[madfloridian]

68. So you think we must have a religious president?

Here is Dean trying to handle all the attacks on his religious nature, and you are saying what? Are you saying he needs to be more religious, of a different religion? Or that it is ok if he is secular?

So what do you think?
Are you saying "secular" is wrong?
Please clarify.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

69. Dean's depth of faith is questioned by some

and his marriage/work relationship is seen as very secular.

[madfloridian]

72. So you disapprove that his wife is Jewish?

I think you are implying that. Not sure what you mean about marriage/work.

So you apparently think our president needs to be religious. Yet you disapprove of Dean's saying that Jesus is important to him and will mention it.

I am confused.