Edwards and Kerry

[genius]

It would help if we could be clear on the pluses and minuses of these two guys. They are my second choices. I also like Clark but I don't know where he stands on a lot of issues. If supporters (as opposed to opponents) could clarify the positions of their candidates, it would be very helpful.

Kucinich has the highest environmental and labor ratings and is willing to cancel NAFTA and withdraw from the WTO. He's also best on civil rights and civil liberties. This is much of why he's my favorite. But I want to find out more about the others since one of them may be the nominee.

VIETNAM: This is Kerry's and Clark's issue that they can use against Bush. I don't know what Edwards was doing during Vietnam but I gather he was not in the military. Did he have a college deferment?

LABOR: Edwards has the second highest labor rating (94) and Kerry has the third highest (90). Edwards has made noises about reforming the trade agreements. I understand that Kerry is for free trade. Is this true? Is either of them close to abandoning NAFTA or the WTO?

Civil liberties and civil rights: Edwards appears better on this issue. At the 2002 California Democratic Convention, John Edwards gave one of the best civil rights speeches that year. Kucinich gave the other great civil rights speech. Edwards has also spoken about the detentions in two debates and his concern for Ashcroft's violation of due process. Being a trial attorney is a plus in this area because trial attorneys focus on the Constitution and rule of law.

Death Penalty: Both are for it under some circumstances. Edwards is for it under more circumstances than Kerry. Edwards is especially concerned about misuse of the death penalty and executions of innocent people.

Environment: This is where the Edwards people need to fill in the blanks. I know that Kerry has the second highest environmental rating and Edwards's rating is okay but nothing to write home about. Kerry voted against Yucca. Like Dean, Edwards supported Yucca. Is Edwards willing to re-evaluate his position on Yucca Mountain? This is a big issue and some parents consider it a life and death issue. Is Edwards willing to do what it takes to bring his environmental rating into the 90s?

[Qutzupalotl]

1. Where Clark stands

http://clark04.com/issues/
(since you asked) :hi:

[gWbush is Mabus]

2. I'll sum it up for you

Both JK and JE will say whatever you want them to say.
They will make ambiguous comments delivered with great oratory experience and you can interpret them to your liking.


Yes I am for the war, but I am not for the war in this exact way.
Yes I am for tax cuts, but no not all the tax cuts.
Yes I am for the Patriot Act, but not all the Patriot act.
I am pro-jobs, but trade is an important issue.
I am an outsider, but I have many years of experience in the Senate.
I believe in a positive campaign, unlike Dean who is just not electable with all that anger and insanity.
I am for all the programs in the world, but the deficit is just too high.
I am pro-gay, but I believe in state's rights discrimination.
Did I mention that I was a war hero and a war protestor?




Dean is our only hope in terms of "framing the debate" against Bush.
He has consistently stood up when nobody else would (Iraq, civil unions, healthcare, balanced budgets, etc. etc.), and now they are "borrowing" his stump speech.

[genius]

9. I asked for responses from their supporters - not from opponents

I want this discussion to be useful not an opportunity for attack. Edwards and Kerry are better on all these issues than Dean.

[AntiCoup2K4]

18. Bullshit.

This board and this party are not exclusive property of the DLC Kerronation committee. Ask a question, expect an answer, and be prepared to deal with a REAL one, not just propaganda to further your sleazy campaign.

[DemDogs]

14. Response from supporter

The Dean supporter framed the issues as an attack, but going through the issues that supporter listed, here are some answers:

Yes I am for the war, but I am not for the war in this exact way.
Both voted for the IWR. Edwards has focused on post-war problems. He and Kerry agree on post-war solutions. Kerry has let his ambivalence (which I assume they all feel with GWB in charge) result in some comments that exhibit thoughtfulness (if you are a Kerry supporter) or weak lack of decisiveness (if you are not)

Yes I am for tax cuts, but no not all the tax cuts.
Edwards and Kerry both want to roll back the tax cuts for the wealthiest taxpayers (about top 2% -- $200,000 and over). If it matters to you, Edwards was third to suggest it (after Kennedy and Lieberman), Kerry was later. Edwards also wants to raise capital gains on the top bracket (over $300,000) and eliminate it at the bottom (under $2000 in gains), which sounds like a progressive capital gains tax. Both would keep the middle class tax cuts (which the Democrats fought for in Bush's tax package.)

Yes I am for the Patriot Act, but not all the Patriot act.
Some of the Patriot Act solved problems in the sharing of information and some other areas. Some of the Patriot Act went too far and both think these provisions should be repealed or be allowed to lapse.

I am pro-jobs, but trade is an important issue.
I don't know what the Dean supporter is saying here. Dean and Kerry have both been pro-NAFTA (Kerry voted for it, Dean attended signing ceremony). Kerry has voted to approve every trade agreement. Edwards has voted to approve China normalization. Edwards family includes union members (mother and brother) while Kerry's do not.

I am an outsider, but I have many years of experience in the Senate.
Kerry has been in Congress for 18 or 19 years. Before that he was Dukakis' Lt. Gov in Mass. Edwards has been in Congress 5 years. Before Senate, Edwards was a lawyer.

I believe in a positive campaign, unlike Dean who is just not electable with all that anger and insanity.
Kerry attacked Dean in almost every debate before Iowa. He has not been attacking while he is "front-runner" except to make some denigrating remarks about the rest of the field. Edwards has not attacked, although there is chatter right now about his answer to a question from Judy Woodruff when he said he did not take lobbyist money "but Senator Kerry has"

I am for all the programs in the world, but the deficit is just too high.
Of course neither of these two have said that. Edwards has a printed plan with the way he pays for it (including reducing the debt). Kerry doesn't promise "all the programs" but does not show how much what he does promise costs and how he cuys deficit.

I am pro-gay, but I believe in state's rights discrimination.
Both Kerry and Edwards think there should be partnership rights and both agree that states can set their own laws on gay marriage and civil unions.

[AntiCoup2K4]

17. "I believe in a positive campaign, unlike Dean ....

...but I'll steal his entire platform and pass it off as my own anyhow"

[George_Bonanza]

19. Research your candidate before attacking others

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_civilrights

"I will oppose expansion of the Patriot Act, efforts to remove sunset clauses included in the act, and I will seek to repeal the portions of the Patriot Act that are unconstitutional." - DeanForAmerica.com

[SangamonTaylor]

3. Edwards major record on Environmental issues

Preserving Clean Air Laws and Fighting the Administration’s Roll Back of the Clean Air Act

Senator Edwards led the fight against increased air pollution from factories with the administration’s rollback of the Clean Air Act.
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) moved to change the “New Source Review” provisions of the Clean Air Act to make it much easier for old factories and power plants to increase their pollution levels without having to add state-of-the-art clean-air technology. Edwards chaired a Senate hearing to expose the new rule’s real effects, during which former EPA Administrator Carol Browner said the rules would “allow the air to become dirtier.” Edwards also led a bipartisan group of 44 Senators in a letter urging the administration to postpone their planned changes and “conduct a rigorous analysis of the air pollution and public health impacts of the proposed rule changes.” - Edwards floor speech, 1/21/03; AP, 9/3/02; Washington Post, 8/2/02


Edwards Led Effort to Pass Amendment to Delay Administration’s Rule Change Allowing More Pollution.

Edwards led the effort to delay the roll back of the Clean Air Act and offered legislation to delay the rule change until a study was completed on its effect on human health and pollution levels. While the amendment did not pass, environmental leaders underscored the importance of the vote for demonstrating that clean air was a bipartisan issue and that the Senate could aggressively counter administration efforts to weaken public health safeguards. - Edwards release, “Senate Votes To Let EPA Roll Back Clean Air Rules,” 1/22/03; Washington Post, 1/23/03


Reducing Polluting Smokestack Emissions That Cause Acid Rain, Toxic Contamination, Global Warming.

Edwards co-sponsored the Clean Power Act of 2002, which would drastically reduce powerplant emissions of four major pollutants which cause smog, acid rain, mercury contamination and global warming. The bill, authored by independent Senator Jim Jeffords, would tighten controls on sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide and mercury. It would also for the first time regulate the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide - the prime suspect causing global warming. This tri-partisan legislation was much stronger in cracking down on harmful emissions to protect the environment and the health of Americans than the administration’s “Clear Skies” proposal. Edwards has also co-sponsored the Clear Power Act of 2003 in the current session of Congress. S.556, 7/17/02; National Journal's CongressDaily, 9/3/02; Gannett News Service, 6/27/02; S.366, 2/12/03


Limiting Logging In National Forests.

Senator Edwards voted to support limits to logging in National Forests. In 2000, Edwards voted for legislation to cut the government’s timber sale program by $30 million, and instead spend the money to increase support for wildfire prevention and decrease the federal debt. Edwards also called for the Senate to defeat anti-environmental efforts to end public and judicial oversight over the Tongass National Forest. CQ, Vote 207, S.Amdt.3883, 7/18/00; Las Vegas Review-Journal, 7/19/00; Letter to Senate conferees, 2/6/03


Working For Tougher Standards On Arsenic In Drinking Water.

After the Bush Administration shelved Clinton administration rules regarding acceptable levels of arsenic in drinking water, Edwards voted to require the administration to immediately issue new standards for arsenic in drinking water. Herald Sun, 8/5/01


Fighting to Protect the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge From Exploration and Drilling.

Edwards voted against leasing land in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) for oil exploration and production. ANWR is one of America’s natural treasures and is an important part of the Earth’s ecosystem. In addition to environmental impacts, drilling for oil in the Arctic Refuge will do little or nothing to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, recoverable oil under the Arctic Refuge would only provide a few months of oil for the U.S. and wouldn’t even be accessible for years to come. Vote 58, 4/6/00; Vote 344, 12/3/01; Vote 71, 4/18/02; World Wildlife Federation, “Arctic National Wildlife Refuge”


Increasing Fuel Efficiency Standards.

Edwards voted in favor of a proposal in 2002 to have the Transportation Department issue rules that would have reduced the growth in consumption of oil by passenger vehicles by one million barrels a day by 2015. Edwards also voted against a proposal to scrap fuel efficiency standards (CAFE standards) and replace them with a requirement for the Secretary of Transportation to issue new regulations to increase CAFE standards based on the maximum feasible average fuel economy levels that can be achieved for automobiles and light trucks. CQ, Vote 90, 4/25/02; New York Times, 4/26/02; CQ, Vote 47, 3/13/02

[La_Serpiente]

4. Here is one pretty big difference

the vote on S 420 of 2001 - The Bankruptcy Bill

36 'Democratic' Senators Vote For Credit Card/Banking Industry's Bankruptcy 'Reform'

GW Bush and the credit card/banking industry won a huge victory last night as 36 'Democrats' joined their Republican 'colleagues' and voted to pass S-420 - the Bankruptcy bill.

Consumer groups and unions have been aggressive in opposing it, contending that the changes in bankruptcy law will take away an important means of relief for families hit by job losses. Former President Clinton vetoed last year's similar version, saying it would hurt ordinary people and working families.

"This is the most anticonsumer piece of legislation that the Congress is considering," said Edmund Mierzwinski, consumer program director for the U.S. Public Interest Research Group in Washington, D.C.

"Among Senate Democrats who may vote for the bankruptcy bill are Minority Leader Thomas A. Daschle (D-S.D.), whose state is home to a Citigroup Inc. credit card operation in Sioux Falls that employs several thousand people. Daschle has received $45,000 in political contributions from Citigroup in the last six years." -- Washington Post 3/11/01

The Associated Press is calling it a big win for Bush and "the second business-friendly measure to pass both houses of the new Congress". And they wonder why Ralph Nader got so many Democratic votes?

36 'Democratic' Senators Vote For Credit Card/Banking Industry's Bankruptcy 'Reform'

Edwards voted for it; Kerry voted against it.

[JohnKleeb]

5. Many of the richest dem senators voted against the bankruptcy bill

Such as Kerry as we know from this, Kennedy, and Corzine of Jersey. Of the two I think Kerry is more anti death penalty but I dont know too much about Edwards position, I assume he would be for it being hes southern, but thats not always true, look at me, I am one and far left.

[genius]

10. Kerry used to be against it totally. But on MTP said he was for it for

terrorists. I would hope he would qualify this.

[DemDogs]

13. Edwards voted against Bankruptcy Reform

on the conference bill. The Senate version, which you talk about, closed down loopholes that allowed Ken Lay-type debtors to keep multimillion dollar homes in several states. Edwards liked that part of the Senate bill. When the House conferees took it out, only negatives were left and he voted against it. He has been clear that he supports limiting the homestead exemption (that allows rich debtors to keep expensive homes) and that he opposes the other version of the reform act. As President, he would work to get the good without the bad.

[SangamonTaylor]

6. Edwards was in highschool during Vietnam

his number was up the year after the draft was ended, thus he was never drafted.

http://www.johnedwards2004.com/image.asp?id=8

[genius]

11. That's a valid reason. He can always talk about how he would

have gladly served if he had been older and how he never would have done what Bush did.

[elsiesummers]

7. Edwards campaigned against NAFTA

Edwards campaigned against NAFTA when running for the Senate.

David Bonoir of Michigan just endorsed Edwards (over Kerry) and he cited that issue - trade - as the reason. Michigan is a labor state. IMO Edwards is closer to Gephardt and Kucinich on trade than Kerry - who is closer to Bill Clinton and Wesley Clark.

Kerry voted for NAFTA but has said he would work to make future trade agreements fairer to labor and the environment.

[rucky]

12. Didn't Edwards call to keep (a reformed) NAFTA in the last debate?

DK supporters talked about it here. somebody help.

[girl gone mad]

8. Visit..

Project Vote Smart.

Clark and Kucinich are the only major candidates who have detailed their issue positions. Edwards gave a small amount of information, but essentially no real detail. Kerry has not even bothered to give his positions (perhaps because they change so frequently, depending on voter whim).

http://vote-smart.org/election_president.php?dist=bio.php

[David Zephyr]

15. Kucinich Towers Over Edwards With Regards to Civil Liberties.

I found myself agreeing with most of your points, except on the issue of Civil Liberties.

You should reconsider your opinion in light of Kucinich's most courageous vote against the Patriot Act and Edwards vote for it.

[genius]

16. I have also seen the incredible impact Dennis has had on Edwards

This is one of the reasons I like Edwards. I am voting for Dennis because he's the best on everything. However, I don't know who will be the nominee and I hope it is either Dennis or the candidate who is the closest to him in priorities.

[George_Bonanza]

20. Kerry's the one who was enthusiastically endorsed by the LCV