Clark is now Anti-Abortion

[anti-bush]

General Clark also adjusted his pitch on some issues.

"Well, I'm against abortion," he said in response to a question from a voter at the Catfish Place, hard by the highway in the hills of West Tennessee. "But there is a law of the land that comes from the Supreme Court, and that law is called Roe v. Wade. And I support the Supreme Court. I have to support the law."

Last month, when General Clark spoke to a Planned Parenthood forum in New Hampshire on the anniversary of the Roe decision, he said: "I want to thank Planned Parenthood for all that you do every day to protect the right to choose." He added, "These are your values. They are my values. And they are the values I defended for 34 years in the United States Army."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/05/politics/campaign/05CLAR.html

I don't know how he can change stances like this at this late in the game.

[Dookus]

1. being against abortion

doesn't mean you're against abortion rights.

[D G]

2. Yes, it's just that simple! n/t

[anti-bush]

5. By this logic

One could say "I am for giving the president authority to go to Iraq, but against going to Iraq."

Neither makes sense.

Do you believe Wes Clark, given the opportunity to select a Supreme Court Justice, would choose a pro-life or pro-choice judge? I don't know. It scares me to not know. He seems to say that he only supports abortion because it is the law. If it weren't the law, what would his position be?

[Dookus]

9. He has said consistently and clearly

that he believes in abortion rights. He supports Roe v. Wade.

[PurityOfEssence]

33. But he wants anti-abortion people to feel he's on their side?

What's the point here? He's going along with it because it's the law of the land, but he's personally against it? This smacks of Ashcroft's claims that he'd uphold the law when he was being confirmed.

If Clark now says that he's against abortion, what's to stop him from trying to get rid of it when he's in a position to change the law?

I don't think he'd do that, but if HE'LL SAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO SUCK UP TO AN AUDIENCE AND TRY TO EXTRACT THEIR SUPPORT, WHAT ELSE WILL HE SAY AND DO? This is the problem with people who have little track record: we have to take their word for things.

Most importantly, what means anything?

This is an almost Deanlike misstatement, and Clark's made far too many of them. For sheer finesse, polish and competence, Clark's got some 'splainin to do. This, of all topics, is one of the lightning rods of modern politics. Holy crap; if you're going to wander around making sloppy pronouncements, make them about smaller issues. This is reckless and extremely dubious.

This is ridiculous. This is as big a misstep as Dean's "Bush knew" statement followed by a retraction.

How can anyone treat this blythely????

This is amateurishness of startling dimensions.

Sheesh.

[D G]

36. I don't think it's that serious

The two quotes were put side-by-side to provoke controversy, of course. And "against abortion" is not the best choice of words. But it's hardly on a Dean level of foot-in-mouthsmanship.

Catholics can be against abortion but support the legal right to choose. I support people's right to bear arms, although I am personally against having guns in my home.

[krkaufman]

55. Wrong

It's a debate tactic to frame the argument from the other side's perspective... and then demonstrate how the position is wrong. Clark's personal belief is about what I'd expect for a SouthernBaptistJewishRomanCatholic; no surprise there. I support him because he's capable of placing the Constitution and country ahead of religion, personal spiritual beliefs and ambitions.

Clark is dead-on on this one.

[NV1962]

19. Uhhhhh...

You're rooting for a lawyer, right?

Ahem...

One can say "I am for giving the president authority to go to Iraq, but against going to Iraq."

That's called making sure that there's a credible threat with the use of force.

And by the by, being in favor of "giving the president authority to go to Iraq, but against going to Iraq" also happens to be Clark's position: he never stated to be against waging war against Iraq, ever - he simply didn't believe and doesn't believe (as backed by emerging evidence) that there was an immediate need to do so, certainly not without ample international (UN) involvement. Other than that, he is too much of a general to rule out the use of force. Soooo...

Foot, meet mouth - mouth, here's foot.

[anti-bush]

24. Really?

Right. Give the kid the keys to the candy store, and don't expect him to go in there and steal the candy.

[NV1962]

29. So...

Speaking of kid, candystore and shopkeeper: where's the Congressional censure? Or at least initiatives to vote on one?

If you truly believe in that rationale, you should take a better look at Dennis Kucinich instead - that'd be your man here.

If you really want to condemn Wes Clark for that "crime" of believing that even Bush wouldn't smear the responsibility of the Oval Office, then I'm sure you'll bestow the same justice to John Edwards.

[anti-bush]

31. Of Kucinich and Condemnation

I don't condemn Wes Clark for believing Bush wouldn't smear the responsibility of the Oval Office. I firmly believe that any Senator (including Edwards) knew that signing the IWR meant that we would be in Iraq as soon as Bush could get us there.

And I have looked at Kucinich. I really like a lot of his positions. There is not one candidate who matches 100% with my beliefs and positions. Some positions I have are more important than others. After looking at all the candidates, I have chosen to support the one that I believe is most capable of running this country with respect to my beliefs and priorities. There are lots of factors involved, and when it comes down to it John Edwards is the one I think would do the best.

[NV1962]

30. Permission to redirect, your Honor...

I'd also like to direct the attention of the witness to my post #26, underneath...

[krkaufman]

51. Unless you signed a document.

Mebbe, unless you signed a document giving the President the authority to go to war at his discretion, with no Congressional checks to exercise of his Executive power.

That'd be a little roadblock to such a hypothetical stance.

[bowens43]

61. Did you read the post?

The two statements are absolute contradictions. Spin all you like, this just another example of Clark saying what ever he thinks he should say to please the crowd. We don't know Clark's position on anything. His beliefs are fluid, they take the path of least resistance.

[Kathleen04]

3. Who is FOR abortion?

No one is pro-abortion.

Pro-choice means that he upholds a woman's right to choose supported by Roe vs. Wade..it does not matter what his personal feelings on the issue of abortion are.

[Maddy McCall]

28. Exactly.

:thumbsup:

[revcarol]

4. Yeah, when he appoints a Supreme Court Justice, he can just say,

the law was Roe vs. Wade. But now you can change the law or not, your choice. BTW, I don't want abortion."

See, it's so simple. No problema.

[lcordero]

6. It's really strange

It looks like he went out of his way to avoid politics his entire life. I'm beginning to wonder if he actually ever voted.

[NV1962]

7. Breaking News: Clark confesses, against abortions performed on himself!

In related news: for the 145 million women he vowed to protect their right to chose.

Interesting to see a quaint variation of the oft-attempted RW equation of "being in favor of the right to chose" with "obligation to favor abortion."

Didn't expect that on DU, frankly.

[Dookus]

10. exactly

I imagine almost every pro-choice politician has used a variant of Clark's statement at some time. I know of no one who comes out and says "Hell yeah, I LOVE abortion!"

[blondeatlast]

46. FR talking points, getcher FR talking points, right here. So true, NV,

thanks.

[Tim_in_HK]

8. I'm a Clark guy

But at first blush this makes me a bit uneasy. I need to see this entire discussion.

[NV1962]

13. I'm a Clark guy too

And as an EX-Catholic myself I know very well where Wes Clark's coming from.

I see no incompatibility whatsoever in favoring right to chose, with a personal dislike for and/or strong discomfort with abortion.

It's like being anti-death penalty when being presented with Charles Manson or Slobodan Milosevic.

More than anything, this shows his integrity and his sincerity.

Gained megapoints with me!

[Tim_in_HK]

17. Yes, I see what you mean

It's actually where I am as well, and I would guess a large segment of people who are pro-choice.

It just looks like not the best word choice, judging from these quotes . . .

[dogman]

42. Most people are pro-life.

The problem is we let the other side label us. It is just like the family value issue. Wes defines family values as helping families not saying what is an acceptable family. I am pro-life and I am pro-choice. I don't let the anti-abortion fanatics define me, i define myself.

[blondeatlast]

47. Yup--I avoid using both terms; they simply don't adequately

describe the vast majority's position on the issue.

I can't believe they are still being used.

[Dhalgren]

57. Bad analogy.

If you are against the death penalty, on principle, then it will not matter who is brought foreward, you are still anti-death penalty. If your principle is "anti-death penalty until someone you don't like or who is really mean comes along", then that's no principle at all.

I think it is only reasonable to be anti-abortion - that's a no-brainer. The question is are you in favor of a woman's human and constitutional right to make the abortion choice on her own - and again, I would argue that that, too, is only reasonable. The right to choose an abortiion has nothing to do with the act of abortion, itself. It is a question of the rights of a citizen. The anti-choice folks always try and couch this argument in terms of whether or not abortions are "moral" or "justified" or whatever. The question is, is a woman a full citizen, with full constitutional rights.

Wes was trying to come off as well as possible to this particular crowd. It may have been a gaff, maybe not, but I think anyone who tries to make anything "earthshaking" out of it, is just playing "gotcha" politics. It means next to nothing.

[AnnitaR]

11. Clark's making the Edwards folks real nervous it seems!

Being against abortion is not the same as being against a women's right to choose!

Really splitting hairs now, if you ask me.

[anti-bush]

12. Nervous ?

I'm only nervous about the possibility Clark becoming president.

[NV1962]

16. Why?

Afraid to see a guy with the heart of President Carter, the vision of Kennedy and the determination of Roosevelt?

Please, stick with your guy. After the inauguration of President Clark you'll have the excuse of saying you were really rooting for that former freshman Senator...

[anti-bush]

18. Why I'm afraid

I'm afraid because I have no public record of this man, and his political stances that give me an indication of what policies will prevail in a Clark presidency. He may be a really good guy, and he could be the best president we've ever had. I just don't feel it in my gut. The fact that his political stances seem to have all been created in the last 5 months does not sit well with me.

I would much rather have a man who has been elected to a public office as my president. I know other people don't feel that way. And I can't change that. What I can do is let other people know what Clark said. If they are willing to trust that what he says on the campaign trail is who he truly is, then more power to them. This is a democracy, and the majority rules.

[AnnitaR]

21. You're more comfortable with someone who has NO idea who

Rabin was????

God Bless you and best of luck to you is all I can say.

[anti-bush]

22. You can discuss that in the other thread

But until I get a better source than third hand anecdotal hearsay, I don't believe it.

[NV1962]

26. OK, I'll take that...

... as an honest overture to look at what Wes has said, way before becoming a candidate.

And perhaps surprisingly, I'll point you two speeches, that for some strange reason are held "against" him - albeit, I suspect, due to inappropriate contamination with of out-of-context insinuations.

The first: Politics Has to Stop at the Water's Edge - aka the "GOP Fundraiser" which, in reality, was a lecture on the U.S. international role, illustrated with his personal experiences.

The second: his 1996 Command & General Staff Officer Course graduation speech, given at the (then) School of the Americas. (BTW, I wrote an extensive piece on Wes Clark and the SOA, here.

If you can't get a good "feel" of who Wes Clark is, and how he approaches this world from that... I could point to 1.5 million Kosovars who survived genocide, unlike 800,000 Rwandans - much to his immense frustration, and in spite of his efforts to intervene.

Having said that, there are people who have a good reason to fear him: they're occupying the WH now.

[Dhalgren]

58. Don't forget the brains of Bill Clinton!

.

[Mobius]

14. read your post

You contradict yourself. Edwards voted for IWR and no child left behind. Now he says they were wrong. Clark never contradicted himself that way. I am against abortion, yet I support a woman's right to choose. I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

[Mobius]

15. Well at least Clark knows who Yitzhak Rabin is...

I mean geez....Edwards being at the reins of foreign affairs doesn't scare the crap out of you after hearing that?

[anti-bush]

20. I contradict myself?

At what point do I contradict myself?

And Edwards has never said they were wrong. Find me one instance of Edwards saying we should not have gone to war in Iraq.

He has said that the way the president has implemented those two items was wrong. He wants to properly fund NCLB. He wants a proper exit plan for Iraq.

But this isn't about Edwards. Those things have been discussed to death. This is about Clark campaigning in the South and suddenly reporting that he is against abortion.

[Mobius]

23. But Clark has always been against abortion

but for a woman's right to choose. I won't post in this thread again, so it goes to the bottom, where it belongs.

[Piperay]

25. Clark says he will support

a woman's right to choose, that's what I want in a candidate. :thumbsup:

[PurityOfEssence]

37. Did he say that in the instance in question?

It sounds like he wants it both ways. If he didn't say, literally, that he's personally against it but that he is committed to having the right protected, then he's either trying to pull the wool over their eyes or he's too awful an orator to turn loose on the world.

This is not something to quibble about. Unless he said at this gathering that he's for sustaining the right, then he's deliberately attempting to mislead these people or is doing so to other groups when he says that he's committed to Roe.

He's either made another perplexing whoppergaffe, or he's not to be trusted. One is under the microscope in his newly chosen profession; there is no quarter given nor to be expected.

How can people shrug this off? This is either greasy or incompetent.

[D G]

39. The thing is, we don't have full context on the quotes

provided in the article.

Plenty of people on this thread say the position makes sense to them - do you also find them "greasy or incompetent"?

[Maddy McCall]

27. I don't like abortion, either, but I am pro-choice. Totally congruent.

No one wants to go through an abortion. No one celebrates the abortion procedure in itself. Just like no one celebrates a quadruple bypass or chemotherapy.

I don't think anyone can say they relish the procedure.


HOWEVER, I am unmistakably PRO-CHOICE! I believe women alone should posess the right to control their own fertility. I believe that the government has no place in the decision of whether or not to abort.

Clark's stance is completely coherent. He hasn't "changed his stance," he has elaborated on it. No problem with me--a very outspoken feminist who has been pro-choice through my entire adult years

[FeelinGarfunkelly]

32. Why is this concept so hard for some to understand?

He's not going to volunteer to perform abortions... that's not what being pro-choice is about. It's about CHOICE--respecting women's abilities to make moral and physical decisions about their bodies. Hooray for Clark respecting women & the right to choose!

[Shanty Oilish]

35. Because---

To say, I'm against abortion but it's the law and I have to defend the law....implies that the law is regrettable.
Clark's regular position is that choice is not merely the law, it's a positive value he has upheld and defended throughout his career.
It's called pandering, not hypocrisy. I have no reason to doubt he's always been pro-choice.

"I'm a Catholic." He praises the Church for its "reasoned, structured, ordered consistency."

[Piperay]

34. Same here...

I personally don't think that I would make that choice for myself but I have ALWAYS strongly believed that every woman should have the right to choose whatever is best for her.

[maddezmom]

38. pro-choice here

and I understand his stance.

[OKNancy]

40. It was Clinton's stance

and every other candidate that is running as far as I know. "It should be legal and rare". Clark has also stated that he is unafraid to apply a litmus tests on judges..they must pass the test on Roe v Wade..they must support it.

[charlie]

43. Mario Cuomo too

He was another Catholic who was personally opposed to abortion. And was a staunch defender of Roe vs Wade.

Some of Clark's statements on abortion here:

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Wesley_Clark_Abortion.htm

[wyldwolf]

41. yep, another attempt at a Clark smear bites the dust

Thanks to all the Clark supporters and others who understand that abortion may not be one's personal choice or be to one's personal liking, but you can still whole heartedly support the right to choose.

[bowens43]

63. The Rovian spin by those who refuse to admit that Clark

has no firm position on this issue is mind boggling.

[blondeatlast]

44. I don't think that is the least bit troublesome--I'm a Kucitizen, btw.

He's simply stating that his personal feelings stray from the law of the land. So do mine, so does everyone's--is anyone PRO-abortion?

I still support a woman's right to make the difficult choice in private. So does Wes Clark. The only Kucinich issue that troubles me is his previous anti-choice stance, but as long as they pledge to uphold Roe v. Wade, I'm not bothered.

[Kamika]

45. Omg that's the smartest thing I've ever read

This way he gets both the ANTI abortionists AND most of the pro abortionists

[blondeatlast]

50. Anti-ABORTIONISTS and pro-ABORTIONISTS?

Have you ever read through an entire thread, ever?

It's GD2004P, so I'll say it--this is why so many Dean supporters, but not Dean himself, frighten me.

[Kamika]

56. BOO

there!

[NicRic]

48. I'm anti abortion ,prochoice !

I never have had to be personally involved in having someone I've been sexually active with go thru the hard decision of having a abortion or not .As I grew older I have become to dislike the idea of abortion and would prefer that people use birth control so they dont have to decide to terminate a pregnancy. However I strongly feel its a personal decision between a women , the father and the Doctor. I dont believe the goverment has any right to interfear with this decision .I have heard General Clark say the same exact thing ,and I resprect his veiw and agree with it 100%

[Dhalgren]

60. The woman makes the choice

in consultation with her doctor. You see, here's the deal: everyone (even fundamentalist Christianists) agree that abortion is a legitimate medical procedure when "necessary". When a women, in private and legally protected consutation with her doctor decides to have an abortion - no one can know whether it was "necessary" or not, because the right of a citizen to doctor/patient confidentiality precludes any other person from ever having access to there consultation. Abortion is a legitimate medical procedure + doctor/patient confidentiality = end of story.

[artistaboard]

49. Right to choose

Clark is consistent in supporting a woman's right to choose abortion. He may not favor abortion personally, but supports the law which protects the privacy of choice. Absolutely consistent!!

[NashVegas]

52. I Would REALLY Like to See This Clarified

Does anyone have the full text? If Dean drops out, Clark is my option, but unless I see some clarification on this, uh ... that ain't too good.

[xultar]

53. HE HASN'T CHANGED he's always said that even @ a Stump in NH

A pro-lifer was trying to get him to change and he said as President he has to protect the law of the land.

[BootinUp]

54. One of the most divisive issues in America

There is no such thing as a win on this issue for a National candidate. Clark has said the following:

He will nominate judges that follow precedent.
He believes in a women's right right to choose, and the Government should not make the decision.
He has now stated his personal belief on abortion which he has already stated he would not try to impose on others through changes in the law.

[bowens43]

59. Clark - which ever way the wind blows .

This is typical. Clark's position on this issue and others are cast in jello.

[NNN0LHI]

62. Hey. I am against abortion too

But just like Clark, I feel the government should keep their noses out of the decision of whether or not a woman has one. It should be a decision made between a physician and a patient. No one else. Clark feels the same way as I do.

Don

[Bread and Circus]

64. Guess what: I am against abortion too.

But I am pro choice.

Who the fuck is for abortion?

Seems fucking barbaric to me to say that you are for
snuffing out a potential life.

Abortion is an unfortunate thing that is sometimes done
for a greater good but it is not a happy, happy - joy, joy
experience for anyone.

[Renew Deal]

65. There is a difference between anti-abortion and pro-choice.

Clinton used to say the same thing. Clinton said he was not pro-abortion, but pro-choice.

[tishaLA]

66. Another Pro-Choice Woman

for Clark

[Moderator]

67. Locking.....

2. The subject line of a discussion thread must accurately reflect the actual content of the message.


The title of the article does not match what is posted here. This thread is misleading and inflammatory.


DU Moderator