CNN: Is Clark Europe's Choice?

[Cush]

talking about how Europe and Clark share some of the same idea's on Foreign Policy and World Views

[kerry-is-my-prez]

1. What'd they say?

I caught the very end of this....

[thebigidea]

2. I had no idea that Europe was a unified entity with one set of ideas

[kerry-is-my-prez]

4. I believe that what they're saying is that a MAJORITY of Europeans

like Clark out of the candidates. Not every single European.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

3. This was pretty ridiculous.

Basically implying that Europe likes Clark, but Americans don't. You'd think that a former CNN employee would be treated better on that network than Clark has.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

8. It has been said that to Europeans a leaders intellect is of the utmost

importance. Not so in America. They mainly vote emotionally - if they LIKE a person. They don't look at a person's record. Americans look at intellect as if it's something to be suspicious of.

European's cannot understand how Bush got in and don't understand the Dean phenomenom (the emotionalism surrounding that campaign). Although you have to say, Dean certainly is much more intelligent than Bush - thank God!

[MoonRiver]

34. If Americans vote emotionally, it's because we no longer have a free press

We're subjected 24/7 to the opinions of rightwing toadies who cow tow to their corporate masters. But this is an optimistic analysis of a situation in which we may actually no longer be able to vote at all.

[YNGW]

5. Don't mean to be crass....

.....but when Europe starts voting in US elections, I'll care.

Didn't we, like, fight a war 200+ years ago so we could make our own decisions without first consulting with Europe?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. Preferences

I'd rather take my chances consulting with Europe than I would in consulting the Bible-belt of the U.S.A.

[YNGW]

13. That'll win an election.

n/t

[SeveneightyWhoa]

10. Thats the point.

This is why that was basically a smear piece. American's don't care about which foreigner is supporting which candidate (I know from experience, look at my website), and a lot of Americans get PISSED OFF at the idea of anayone even thinking about "interfering" with their elections. This type of crap only serves to further split Americans, and ignore anything substatiative about Clark or his policies. This was a smear piece. "Europeans love Clark, but Americans don't care, so Clark is worthless", was the overall gist of it.

[Jerseycoa]

6. European governments (and Canada's) must really hate Clark

They gave him these:

Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (United Kingdom); Commander of the Legion of Honor (France); Grand Cross of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany; Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau, with Swords (Netherlands); Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Italy; Grand Cross of the Medal of Military Merit (Portugal); The Commander’s Cross with Star of the Order of Merit of Republic of Poland; Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg; Grand Medal of Military Merit (White Band) (Spain); The Grand Cordon of the Order of Leopold (Belgium); Cross of Merit of the Minister of Defense First Class (Czech Republic); Order of Merit of the Hungarian Republic; Commander’s Cross, The Silver Order of Freedom of the Republic of Slovenia; Madarski Konnik Medal (Bulgaria); Commemorative Medal of the Minister of Defence of the Slovak Republic First Class (Slovakia); First Class Order of Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (Lithuania); Order of the Cross of the Eagle (Estonia); The Skandeberg Medal (Albania); Order of Merit of Morocco; Order of Merit of Argentina; The Grade of Prince Butmir w/Ribbon and Star (Croatia) and the Military Service Cross of Canada.

:evilgrin:

[FrenchieCat]

9. If that's hate....

I want some of that!

[crissy71]

11. No better way to say it than that

Of course Little Boots has a plaque somewhere from his friends in the Taxas Rangers baseball team office

[sujan]

17. big deal

Even Saddam hussein was given key to the city of Detroit.

[Jerseycoa]

19. Big deal, true

Even George W. Bush can raise a ton of money.

[5thGenDemocrat]

25. Saddam was given the key to what?

I live in Michigan and that's the first I ever heard about it.
John
I say BS.

[SahaleArm]

35. I didn't believe it either...

http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/032703/new_032703037.shtml

[shivaji]

46. Yeah...all those ribbons AND $1.50 will buy me a

cup of coffee in a modest restaurant.

[Justice]

61. And Your Point Would Be....?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

50. What Clark said about the French and what the French said about Clark

At a time when everyone, even liberals were bashing the French language, the French culture, and distorting history, Clark was one of the very few Americans with the courage to come to their defense, saying they were the one country with values most similar to those of the United States. From the Washington Post article "Wesley Clark Still On Maneuvers", March 12, 2003:

“…Clark says America's relations with its traditional allies can be repaired. France, he says, is the country most like the United States. "They have a worldview, they have a lot of pride. France and Texas, they're two sides of the same coin." It's the job of statesmen to build bridges, Clark says…”

General Clark was awarded 'Commandeur de la Légion d'honneur' by the Minister of Defence, Mr. Alain Richard. It is the first time in almost 25 years that a Supreme Allied Commander Europe was granted this high decoration. In his speech Minister Richard mentioned that General Clark had a prominent role in the Dayton negotiations, development of ESDI, adapting the strategic conditions of the twenty-first century, developing and putting forward a global security vision for the Balkans and, he highlighted the key role that General Clark had in OPERATION ALLIED FORCE. Mr. Richard also said that it is important to appreciate General Clark’s role in the recent developments concerning the European pillar of the Alliance. According to the French Defense Minister:

"General Clark was a remarkable ally for France and Europe. The importance of his contribution to European security and to the quality of the transatlantic relationship is recognized by all; his heritage will have positive effects in Europe for many years".

[Myra]

12. I don't suppose CNN offered any good ol' fashioned evidence?

Whether they raised it as a question or a statement,
what did they base it on?
The fact that he was just in Europe testifying in the Hague?

[SeveneightyWhoa]

14. That makes this even more sickening.

I haven't heard much detail on CNN about what Clark's actually doing. They have a reporter there, and instead of reporting on the proceedings or what Clark said, he talks about how Europeans love Clark and basically implied that Clark's more of a European than an American. In other words, Clark cares more about Europe than the US, painting him as a Euro-traitor. And then Judy Woodruff shows a clip of Clark's speech today, and instead of it being something substantial about his plans (he laid out a lot of plans, talked about his campaign and why he's the best choice to beat Bush, etc), she showed a shooort clip of his opinion of the possibility of the death penalty on Hussein.

[Myra]

16. Gee, if I was one of those zany conspiracy theorist the conspirators mock.

I'd have to point out how the mainstream media is ignoring
99% of his great speech, and hammering on out of context
"death penalty" comments.

http://www.salon.com/politics/wire/2003/12/17/clark/index.html

I don't suppose CNN put it in context and pointed
out that he said the Iraqis should decide Saddam's punishment,
not the US?

The mainstream media never seems content with General Clark's
words in context. They always have to rearrange his them.

[SahaleArm]

28. I'll add some fuel to the fire

New York Times hits:

Howard Dean: 132 Hits

John Kerry: 88 Hits

Wesley Clark: 63 Hits

[mot78]

15. Good

this is EXACTLY why we need Clark.

[_Jumper_]

18. I hope the white race approves of our nominee

:eyes:

I have nothing against you personally but I am sick of the Eurocentrism exhibited on DU.

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. Kind of an irrelevent question

since Europe isn't voting. :shrug:

[jumptheshadow]

57. Not irrelevant at all

Bush & Co. has done so much damage to our international relationships that we need somebody in the White House who understands and is respected by the global community.

[arewethereyet]

21. They have heard of him, he was nice before, why not ?

I guess the real question is, since they don't vote, what is the significance other than as it relates to out of country fundraising ?

[Cascadian]

22. I honestly think people in Europe are taking notice of Howard Dean

Maybe in Kosovo they love Clark but I know in Serbia they would declare him "persona non grata" because of the 1999 NATO bombings.

As for Howard Dean, he is already having a following among expat Americans there.

Wouldn't it be funny if Jacques Chirac and Gerhardt Schroeder came to America and only met with Howard Dean? Wouldn't that just be a slap in the face for Bush.

John

[arewethereyet]

23. I agree, and he's the typical ugly american to them

Jack and Gerry probably wouldn't get visas just to see Howie.

[Imajika]

24. Americans couldn't care less...

...what Europeans think. Not even one iota.

If CNN is saying Europeans like Clark, then consider it a hit piece.

Europe and Europeans have been painted as a bunch of wimps by the US media, and CNN knows full well that if they report that Europeans like Clark that it will probably have a negative effect on his campaign.

Imajika

[Mr. Brown of MD]

30. I had the same read on that

"If CNN is saying Europeans like Clark, then consider it a hit piece."

I think that when people think of Europe, they think of France and Germany, and the French-hating that pervades many aspects of US culture is astounding. A piece like that is probably more an attempt to show that Clark is as 'wimpy' as Europe, than it is an attempt to show that Clark is fully capable of agreeing with and getting along with the allies that Bush has effectively alienated.

I could be wrong, but that's what I thought when I first read that headline.

-CollegeDude
Glad to see at least one person agrees

[_Jumper_]

31. They care a bit about Europe thinks

Hence, the constant debates about whether or not the rest of the white race would approve of the Iraq war. The public does not care at all about the views of non-white foreign nations, even powers such as Japan and China.

[Dirk39]

26. Hello from Europe, Germany...

If you ask me, I'm more afraid of Clark than of Bush. This guy would start a third world war if let loose, as he nearly did in Kosovo.
It's a nightmare, to even think about this.
Dirk

[arewethereyet]

27. thanks for your expectedly honest German observation

we get a very limited view of foreign opinion around here.

[Dirk39]

39. Hi,

the only candidate that was shown more than once in the German T.V. or mentioned in Newspapers was Dean. I guess about 97,5% of the Europeans don't know any other of the candidates, even just a minority might have heard of Dean.
But I plan to hijack Dennis Kucinich, the USA isn't worth him:-)
Dirk

[arewethereyet]

41. fair enough, we'll trade him for a good soccer coach

fair ?

Oh and some REAL german beer, not that import stuff. I know you keep the good stuff to yourselves.

[Cascadian]

29. Hello.

I remember that incident with the British General Mike Jackson where Clark wanted to confront the Russians at the Pristina airport and Jackson refused. There are still many questions I have about Clark which is why I support Dean.

I also fear that the military is so embedded in many aspects of American culture that many look to a military man to guide them. America has not reached the sort of humanism that Europeans have embraced in the last several years. This is a good reason why I am keen to move to Europe particularly if Bush wins. Maybe someday we will learn.

John

[SahaleArm]

33. Yeah, and I hear he was involved in Waco too!

Do you get your news from RW talking points? Katrina vanden Heuvel does.

http://www.clarkmyths.com/myth4.html

[Cascadian]

37. Uh.....the story about the incident in Kosovo came from the....

Guardian. Not what you call a rw paper? Why do Clark supporters always assume those who do not support Clark are right wing? The knee jerk reactions are no better than how Rw-ers react. Here is who I really support.....






Thank you for your concern.

John

[SahaleArm]

40. Sort of a joke...

Katrina is an editor for the Nation and the Waco thing is big in the FR world.

[Turkw]

36. you remember it? really, good I'd like to hear from someone who was there

Or do you mean you remember "reports" of it. The British were so concerned with Clark that they knighted him, boy that's the way to really put someone in their place.

[Justice]

60. Hello Yourself

It is fine to have questions about a candidate. There is lots of information about Clark and Pristina available on the Internet and on DU. This information has explained it all to my satisfaction.

Do you have any questions about Dean? I have questions myself about Dean - could you direct me to where I could read about him? Oh, that's right - his records are sealed. I can't.

My second paragraph is to make a point to you (not to slam Dean) - that you support Dean because you have so many questions about Clark. However, Clark is an open book. Dean is not.

However, what you say doesn't make much sense - because basically you accept Dean without knowing all the details about him. That is your choice, and I am fine with that. But don't suggest that Dean is an open book and Clark is not.

[SahaleArm]

32. Are you friend of Milosevic perhaps?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=933246

[Dirk39]

44. Yes, he's my best friend...

I ask critical questions and there are things, I'm not sure about and I doubt the stories that are told to justify wars. I'm not with Bush nor with Clark, so I'm an enemy of freedom and democrazy. Right in the middle of any possible axis of evil. If that's your Bush-Fox logic, count me out. Call me a friend of Milosovic or Saddam anytime. I don't care.
If I have to decide between Bush, Clark and Saddam, I'm not on your map, I paint a new one.
Dirk

[Cascadian]

45. Dirk, there might be a knock on your door.

That knock will be coming from me. I will have left the insanity that is America. I will need a place to stay.

:eyes:

Ich Deutsch klienen sprechen aber nicht so gut!


Tchuss!

John

[Dirk39]

48. Knock, knock anytime...

"Ich Deutsch klienen sprechen aber nicht so gut!"
Dont mater mach! Aur englisch very good is!
Djesus, first I thought it was the CIA, but it's just you?
There's enough insanity here, too. But at least it's a different insanity... :-)
Dirk

[SahaleArm]

47. Screaming bloody imperialism at anything American...

Not much of an argument eh? No, you're willing to buy into tripe when diguised under the heading of scholarship.

On Edit:

Trial transcripts: http://www.un.org/icty/milosevic/

[Dirk39]

49. Screaming bloody imperialism at anything American?

No, no, no. We have to love Clark. Bush is too selfish with his nostalgic ties to the oil industry. We need someone like Clark, who shares with our corporations and banks. Who's doing it the unilateral way. No more talking of american imperialism. I promise. And he's not a little boy, playing cowboy. He's a real killer. A soldier. Someone to look upon, or to look away.
Forever yours,
Deutsche Bank
Volkswagen
Gerhard Schröder
Joseph Fischer

[SahaleArm]

53. Thank you for clearing that up...

Yes, most politicians are self-serving but that's the nature of the beast. Whether US intervention in the former-Yugoslavia was good, bad, imperialistic, or colonialistic depends on who you ask...

What's your take?

[Turkw]

38. I guess both the far right and the far left hate the center :shrug:

And why liberals hate someone who stoped ethnic cleansing for stoping it, I'll never get.

[SahaleArm]

42. Often under the guise of self-determination.

If America is involved they see it as imperialism, a favorite term of the left-of-left and the unsocialable.

[PSR40004]

43. This summer when I was there many thought little of the general

This summer when I was there many seemed to think little of him and on the news many thought of him as a loose cannon. I got the feeling he wasn't thought highly of due to his abrasive nature in bosnia. I heard alot of criticism.

[arewethereyet]

51. I guess this NATO genius wonderboy stuff isn't exactly so

imagine that.

Next we'll be hearing he was fired from his job there and had it prettyed up to cover administration embarrasment over the matter.

[Julien Sorel]

52. Amazing.

I had dinner recently with an employee and his mother who is visiting from Belgium. She knows who Clark is, and said he was highly regarded there. But Belgium is a small country, so maybe my anecdote isn't as good as yours.

[SahaleArm]

54. You're not hanging out with the right crowd ;) n/t

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

55. I've Seen Clark On French TV

I get the international satellite French TV network in my home, called TV5. Clark has been on about 5 times while I've been watching, from the time he declared his candidacy, to his testimony at the Hague, to a few snatches of speeches he's made. He is the only Democratic candidate among the nine that I've seen covered to any significant extent by the French media. I've heard commenatators speak about him as well, during political talk shows. They seem to acknowledge him as one of Bush's strongest critics.

[DemExpat]

59. Clark is also the only one getting coverage here in Holland.

And favorable coverage at that.

Clark is highly respected in The Netherlands, and in March 2000 was rewarded an honorary knighthood for his work in Kosovo.

A news documentary 2 nights ago did mention that Dean looked like the front-runner so far, but that Clark seemed to have the credintials to perhaps be the only one to have a real chance in the election to beat Bush.

I really think that European leaders would be more than thrilled to work with Clark. But any Dem would be better, for sure!

DemEx

[Dirk39]

63. Interesting...

maybe it has something to do with the Netherlands being members of the "coalition of the willing"?
They attack us with their red painted whatertomatoes and cucumbers for years and now this :-)
Dirk

[DemExpat]

68. Definitely a more center right government now and part of the

coalition, but in the time of Kosovo, Dutch government was Labor....

I think that Holland generally sticks with the US through thick and thin - no matter what governments are in power here or there - really one of America's best "little" Allies....

DemEx

edit: those tomatoes and cucumbers are tasting better the past couple of years now, aren't they? Hot-house veggies used to taste like crap, now they are not bad...:-) :hi:

[Dirk39]

70. O.K. I admit it,

as far as only the tomatoes are concerned, and if you promise here in front of the world-power, that you don't send us any more showmasters like Rudi Carell and that you keep your Big-Brothers (not Clark and those other friends of yours:-)), these other Big Brothers, you know what I'm talking about, for yourself.
If Clark gets elected and Schröder stays, I immigrate to Sweden anyway...

Throwing dutch tomatoes at Clark - if Bush was the corporate version of Lenin, Clark seems to be more like Mussulini, but maybe this means italian-quality tomatoes in all of his colonies...
The words "heroic" and "patriotic" raising from a dark background, this isn't plastic-Bush anymore, this is Riefenstahl quality work...
To be just honest, I'm afraid, I'm really afraid of Clark.
Dirk

[DemExpat]

73. He'll be more like Clinton.....only better IMO....

But it is a very uncomforatable feeling to be afraid of someone possible getting into a powerful position.....

DemEx

[kerry-is-my-prez]

65. Guess that's why I like him. I'm 97% Dutch...

If Bush gets in, I'm moving to the Netherlands. I have lots of relatives there...

[DemExpat]

69. 97% - that's pretty Dutch, all right....

I'm dual national now - US/Dutch.

:hi:

DemEx

[Justice]

62. Where is There?

Who are Many?

What is Little?

What Feeling?

I have the feeling that the post is very vague. Are you General Shelton?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

66. What country were you in?

n/t

[T_i_B]

56. I think ABB is Europe's choice!

Myself, I liked the look of Bob Graham a lot, I think Dean looks great, Kerry seems OK, and as for Clark, his CV is very impressive but I don't know enough about his policies to have that much of an opinion on the guy.

[Auntie Bush]

71. You don't know enough about Clark's policies

Then why don't you go to his website and find out ?

[T_i_B]

72. Cos I like hanging round DU instead?

:eyes: :evilgrin: :eyes:

[yellowdawgdem]

58. rant

Well, I'm sure Europe has plenty at stake, and would be happy for any democrat 004 to beat the Bush machine. abb.
If they don't get much coverage of amerikan candidates, then it'd be harder to say. But the question is, what is our absolute best choice to win? and then, can we get that, given the way that the primaries work over here.
I feel really nervous for any possibility that Bush would have 4 more years , in fact, even if we do get him out, I'm not sure if we can repair things that easily. And maybe it seems odd to me that we are all so emotional about these candidates. Emotion is not a great method for making one of the most important decisions in world history.

[John_H]

64. Probably a hit job.

Hey swing voters!: Those French and German socialist cowards just love Clark.

[stickdog]

67. Clark for King of Europe! (nm)