Take the ABB Pledge

[Dems Will Win]

If your candidate loses, will you take the ABB Pledge now?

Dean himself is supporting whoever the Dem nominee is if it isn't he, will you take the same ABB pledge now?

We're assuming that Joementum doesn't come back and Lieberman isn't drafted at a brokered convention and that Lyndon LaRouche doesn't win the nom.

Given the fact that if re-elected Bush will:

- DRAFT possibly 2 or 3 million people to take over the world's oil

- DRAFT 80,000 doctors and nurses up to age 44 (no medical deferments)

- DRAFT tens of thousands of computer experts, linguists, engineers and others up to age 44 (no medical deferments)--and any other occupation the DoD needs

- Allow Global Warming to destroy the environment

- Arrest, harass thousands of us with the Patriot Act II

- Close down many public schools and then run them from DC

- Allow 44 million to continue without insurance

- Defund Social Security and Medicare until they are total jokes

- Militarize Space with the new 2 Mw Laser and end all civilian space missions (Mars is a phony distraction)

- Install BBV machines and end democracy as we used to know it

- Get rid of all alternative media

- Cleanse the Internet and pull the plug on DU and all other progressive sites

ETC., ETC.

In short a Bush second term would be far, far worse than the first term. It would be the living nighmare you have now--but SQUARED. In addition, you would be letting the Corporatist Media WIN and Sean Hannity will be in your face GLOATING.

Don't let your friends and relatives get DRAFTED and sent to the ME or ASIA for PNAC. You will likely lose the job you have now in Great Depression II, while so many will die in DUBYA DUBYA III in Central Asia when Putin tries to stop Smirky. In many places, the air will grow worse and your children and yourself could sicken.

Finally, a Bush second term would mean the BBV machines completely take away our democracy so that withholding your vote for a future progressive President will become an impossibility. In fact, we would likely have Jeb Bush selected in 2008 and that of course is the true end of it all.

Is that worth the desire to be 100% pure as the driven snow in your political work and voting? Yes, not voting for the lesser of two evils may have been a rational argument in the past, but not when you are looking at the end of democracy by the Bush GOP-- for a Dem President who would at the very least allow democracy to continue.

Are you ABB (Anybody But Bush)? OR are you NBMC (Nobody But My Candidate)? Don't forget that if you are NBMC, and Bush is reselected, you must live with your actions for the rest of time--because there won't be any more true elections for President. You will be voting not only for George W. Bush but also for Jeb Bush and then George P. Bush after Jeb. Can this country (or you) mentally withstand the stress and fascism of another 20 years of President Bushes??????

The only argument against this is "PSHAW! that'll never happen". After all we've seen from W, this is a complete pipe dream, IMHO.

Take the ABB Pledge! I certainly am. Dean Supporters, Edwards, Kerry, Kucinich, Clark people! Even if you don't work for the Dem, will you at least vote to stop W, Jeb and George P.????

I'm for Dean but I now take the ABB Pledge and will WORK for the Dem nominee whoever it will be!

[DebJ]

1. If not voted out, King George will crown himself Emperor

[Meldread]

2. I'm ABB...

Anybody But Bonesmen. I'll vote for whoever the democratic nominee is unless it's Kerry.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

4. see, i differ from you there.

while i am not big on kerry, i am pretty sure he would do a better job than bush.

[Meldread]

18. Oh I'm pretty sure he will be...

but that doesn't mean he'll get my vote. He should have thought about my vote before he started playing dirty tricks while trying to win the nomination. Some (not all) of his supporters should have thought about my vote before they started trashing my candidate. I won't vote for Kerry just to spite that group of people. (You can blame them if Bush wins.) If Dean drops out I'm going to support Edwards or Clark depending on whose still in the race.

Besides in all likelihood if someone other than Dennis Kucinich or Howard Dean doesn't win (someone who was against the Iraq War and Patriot Act -- this might include Clark) Nader will run again. That will screw our chances especially if Kerry is running because Kerry's main focus is going to be a few swing states. We already hear rumors of him completely writing off the south (with perhaps the exception of Florida).

There is an old saying, "Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better." If the Democrats wish to continue to nominate spineless people who are willing to sell out the American people at the first site of trouble then they will continue to lose. If it takes getting millions of Americans killed and Nuclear Bombs going off to turn this world around -- that's not my fault. That's the fault of those who choose to nominate the guy. By that time we'll be seeing Dennis Kucinich as our next President because there will be a revolt in this country if things get as bad as the post that started this thread.

[Ficus]

45. "Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better."

"Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better."

I disagree. Things got worse and worse for Germany in the 1920s until Hitler came to power. No liberal savior stepped in then, and a farther rightward lurch makes it harder for candidates like Dr. Dean and Rep. Kucinich to be viable someday.

[JVS]

47. Actually things were getting better in Germany in the late 20's

[Ficus]

53. ???

how do you figure that Germany was in good shape from the end of the first world war to Hitler's rise to power?

After the Wall Street Crash of 1929, the US called in its loans to Germany, and the German economy collapsed. The number of unemployed grew, people starved on the streets. People wanted someone to blame, and looked to extreme solutions – Hitler offered them both, and Nazi success in the elections grew.

Germans turned to Nazism because they were desperate. The number of Nazi seats in the Reichstag rose from 12 in 1928 to 230 in July 1932.

[JVS]

74. The early 20's were much worse than 25-29

The inflation crisis was in 23. Late 29 was when it took another dip. But 1928 was in the period where it looked like the Weimar republic might work

[Ficus]

101. ok

you missed my point.

[Meldread]

59. That's what the NRA is for...

They always say they are saving their guns for the revolution that is bound to come sooner or later. ;)

Seriously though, if you think this country can turn into a mirror of Hitler's Germany then you really need to go back and learn some history. Learn about how Hitler came into power and why -- if Bush was like Hitler than it'd already be too late.

The main difference between Bush and Hitler is the fact that Hitler was smart and Bush isn't.

[Ficus]

63. I agree

Bush of course doesn't equal Hitler. I know that some here on DU think that.

I was just using the example that things getting worse or more rightwing doesn't equal some liberal savior rising up to save us in the future.

I can't accept the argument that we should let * get elected so that next time Dean or Kucinich will be able to get elected. Sorry, that argument doesn't hold any water.

[Meldread]

68. I don't like that argument either...

but the fact of the matter is who in their right mind (aside from people like Pat Robertson) are going to vote for another Republican in 2008? Especially after four more years of Bush? Most people I know who are independents and Republicans already dislike the guy. Another four years with him and I am willing to bet every thing I own that we won't be seeing another Republican for a loooong time after him. The entire party will become tarnished by his reputation.

[Ficus]

71. I remember that argument being used about Reagan

and we still lost in 1988. Hell, we only really won in 1992 because of Perot, in a lot of ways.

You assume that the conservative 50% of the voting public doesn't just dislike Bush, but that they will dislike Republicans in '08. People like Rudi Guliani, or George Pataki, or some other moderates that could be nominated would keeps folks in.

Suddenly they would like whom in our party? Conservatives won't come to our party in droves, unless someone like Joe Leiberman is our candidate. I can't see a Howard Dean or Dennis Kucinich doing that.

The fact is that our country is as evenly devided as it was in 2000. After 4 years of Bush, things haven't move leftward, and if they have, we'll be getting a new president. 4 more years won't produce any better results for us than the last four, unless it has, and then we won't have to worry about 4 more years of Bush.

[Dems Will Win]

5. Anybody But Bonesmen, That's funny

Ruinous but funny. Wonder if you'll change your tune after two terms of Jeb.

[oasis]

83. Bush could appoint as many as four judges to the Supreme Court if

allowed another four year term.

[MoonRiver]

22. So you prefer * over Kerry?

I've asked a couple of people this simple question and haven't gotten an answer. Please think about this issue, even if you don't want to declare yourself publicly. Not voting or voting for a 3rd party is giving your vote to *.

[BurtWorm]

31. We've heard that before. Some of us have even spewed that before.

It's beginning to look more and more like a time for peed on Dems to stage a strike.

[Meldread]

37. I could also turn that question around...

Voting for Kerry is giving my vote away to a third party or causing me to stay home. Don't vote for Kerry then we won't have this problem. :)

[MoonRiver]

46. Fact is, you're still evading my question.

Do you prefer * over Kerry?

[Meldread]

62. In the long term?

I think it would be better to have Bush for another four years compared to Kerry, because it would ensure a progressive President in the future. A Kerry presidency would be mediocre at best and would more than likely ensure a Republican Victory in 2008.

I’d compare it to pulling off a band-aid. Do you want to do it slowly or do you want to hurry up and get it over with? Four more years of Bush will ensure that another Republican won't be elected until 2020 at the very least.

EDIT:

Now answer my question. If you want my vote why are you going to support Kerry? By doing so you are supporting another four years of Bush. You are causing the very thing you stand against to happen. Therefore if Kerry wins the nomination and Bush wins the General Election it's your fault not mine.

[beyurslf]

23. And if it is Kerry

who gets your vote? No one?

[Meldread]

39. It depends...

on what else needs to be voted on. If I need to vote on some other stuff then I'll vote for a third party, won't vote for president, or will write in Dean's name. Otherwise I'll probably just stay home.

[BurtWorm]

3. No! Not until the Democratic Party gets something straight!

If they want my vote, they better understand what motivates me. I need to hear more candidates speaking truth to power. I need to hear more candidates demanding a change toward the grass roots and away from the Big Ticket Donors in the party and toward more democracy in the power structure. I need to hear it loud and clear. Until I do, I won't pledge my support to ABB.

I never thought I would be saying this, but I want the party to change, and I want it to fear my bolting if that's the only way to get it.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BurtWorm]

I'm not the only one. I'm sick of lip service.

And believe me, it's not just about me. There are millions of us. The Democratic Party got a little annoyed in 2000 when the Naderites tossed pebbles at it. I'm inside the party. I plan to remain inside the party. But I'm not going to sign any pledges to make Terry McAuliffe feela all warm and fuzzy and think I think he's doing a great job when I think he and his whole corporate wing of the party are a disaster.

[Meldread]

30. It's a two way street.

People can't black mail me into getting my vote. If people want me to vote then they should elect a candidate that I can vote for: Dean, Edwards, or Clark. Each of them can handily beat Bush in the General Election and each of them are better than Kerry.

You can threaten me with the apocalypse President all you want but it's not going to change my mind. Why? Because I figure that if the American people are stupid enough to re-elect him for a second term then they are going to get what they deserve.

I a liken voting for Bush like touching a hot stove then complaining about it being so hot. Then doing it again and again. The common sense thing to do is stop it, but sometimes people need to learn the hard way. If that's the case -- it isn't my fault.

[Dr.Phool]

11. I'm still a Dean supporter

And I will be if and until he drops out. I can now take the ABB pledge sice Lieberman has dropped out, with one reservation.

And it's got about as much chance of happening as a hailstorm in hell. I won't vote for Sharpton. Why? 4 words. Roger Stone. Tawana Brawley.

It looks like the Republicans are hedging their bets, and inventing their own Nader.:grr: :puke:

[BurtWorm]

27. Sharpton is nothing to be afraid of. He's vaporizing.

The Dean movement people, maybe, are something to be afraid of. We could screw it up big time for the DNC Coronation Committee. It's not guaranteed, but it is a distinct possibility.

[southerngirlwriter]

6. HELL YES, I'll take the pledge!

I solemnly swear, pledge, affirm, promise, and declare that no matter who the Democratic party nominates, and regardless of whether I think that candidate is the best we could have done or not, that I will vote for him. If the Democratic party nominates my cat for President and the blister on my ass for VP, I will vote! I will vote for the crackheads under the bridges who beg for food if they get the nod! I will vote for the roadkill I passed in my car last night if it gets the nod!!

I will vote for ANYBODY BUT * !!!!! HELL YES, I TAKE THE PLEDGE!!!!

[Dems Will Win]

9. Southerngirlwriter, will you marry me?

That's the spirit!

[Frances]

8. The Boy King or ABB?

What a silly question

[vi5]

10. You know it.....I've learned a lot recently.....

...trying to teach my 2 year old daughter that the world doesn't revolve around her and that she can't always get her way and when she doesn't that she should not go off and pout.

Sadly she is picking up on this lesson a lot easier than more than a few people on this board.

[BurtWorm]

36. I don't care who the Dem candidate is.

But if he doesn't demonstrate an end to business as usual--and I don't just mean Bush-ness as usual--then he doesn't deserve anyone's pledge of support. Not Bushness is not enough of a reason for me to pledge support.

(That doesn't mean I won't support him. Doesn't mean I will, either.)

[Tinoire]

12. Nope. If I don't vote my conscience how the hell can I expect

the people I vote in to do so?

ABB is nothing but a ridiculous DLC-inspired slogan designed to get Democratic voters who are pissed off with the DLC to "play ball" as the country & party keep drifting to the right.

They're going to have to do a little better than a slogan.

[BurtWorm]

28. Amen!

[Dogmudgeon]

13. Here's the plan --

FIRST, send Bush back to "Compound W".

SECOND, reverse or undo as much of the damage he caused as possible.

THEN, build a truly progressive Democratic Party not by moving TO the Center, but by moving the Center ITSELF.

Ought to take about five or six years.

--bkl

[Dems Will Win]

15. Correct! Now doesn't that sound better than 20 years of President Bushes?

[Atlant]

21. Won't happen.

> THEN, build a truly progressive Democratic Party not by moving
> TO the Center, but by moving the Center ITSELF.

Won't happen, not as long as you keep enabling the Democrats
to don pink tu-tus and run from real change.

Atlant

[MadHound]

43. Nice plan, except it has one fatal flaw

And that is that the Democratic Party will not try and undo the damage, nor will the Democratic Party reform itself. Don't you get it yet? BOTH parties are entirely and thoroughly corrupted by big business and have been for a long while. The Democratic Party is so far gone into this corruption that it is beyond any attempts of reform. It is better to let it fade away and instead build up a truly liberal party that isn't and can't be corrupted by big business.

Sheesh, I get so tired of these party partisans! All you are interested in is a short sighted vision of saving a corrupt moribund party when the real task that lies before us is saving our country. Which do you want to put first, saving a party or saving the country?

[Atlant]

50. That's a pretty good summary of my position.

> Which do you want to put first, saving a party or saving the country?

That's a pretty good summary of my position. What I've argued (for
quite a while now) is that it is of relatively little use to us if
the Democrats win the Presidency but, in the process: 1) Become
just like a Moderate Republicans to do so, and 2) Lose every other
contested election so that the House, the Senate, the State Houses,
and the Governors' chairs remain firmly in Republican hands.

I want to save my country.

If the Democrats want to help, fine. If not, then I'll do what
I believe is most likely to lead to the eventaul salvation of
my country. And my horizon extends well beyond November of 2004.
And I'm willing to take some short-term losses for long-term gains.

Atlant

[Dogmudgeon]

54. It's not about saving the party

It's about using the party's established structure to build a 21st century Progressive Era.

"Don't you get it yet?" I sure do, MadHound. The reason the party has been 'corrupted' is because the rank-and-file members of the party had become inattentive. Lost hope. Got cynical. But progressive political action is inherently involving. If even a minority of committed Democrats become whistle-blowers, corruption will stop cold.

This is true whether it's the Democratic Party or the United States of America.

The attitude that "they both stink, so fsck 'em!" is simply common cynicism re-worded to sound like the cynic is a deep thinker instead of being deeply disappointed.

The cure for this kind of cynicism is to 'take back the power'. This will have to be done for the country -- and the world -- as well as for the party. And I'd hasten to say that it has to happen within the Republican party, too.

At that point, building new parties becomes an effective strategy. Without it, whatever progressive party you have in mind will quickly become as corrupt as the Republican party. It's the involvement and activation of the people that keep things clean.

Look around; it's happening already. The Democratic party has become a hotbed of populism, all because of the peoples' sentiment of ABB. And it isn't going to stop with the removal of Bush. It's a political "tectonic" movement that is going to move continents -- starting with the bottom half of North America.

--bkl

[MadHound]

84. Now that's a sure fire way to win friends and influence enemies!

Let's play "Blame the Victims"! And I quote: "The reason the party has been 'corrupted' is because the rank-and-file members of the
party had become inattentive." Yeah, right. Except the flaw in your logic is that many many people in the party, myself included, have watched as this Democratic corruption grew and grew. We screamed about it, we wrote about it, we yelled from the highest rooftops. And yet for all of our work and noise, the corruption still grew like a cancer. Sorry, but there is only a certain amount of time that myself and others can continue to bang our head against a brick wall, and I think thirty years plus is long enough.

We've been trying to stem this tide of corporate corruption inside the party for a long time. I first observed this phenomenon on my first campaign, McGovern, when I was eleven years old. Watched as the Democratic leadership slowly starved the campaign, watched as they stabbed it in the back, watched as they let it die the death of a thousand cuts. People like to think, and the popular spin is that the McGovern campaign failed so miserably because he was a far out liberal. That is just flat out wrong. The reason he failed so miserably is because the Democratic leadership refused to back McGovern. After their boy Muskie collapsed into emotional jelly on the campaign trail the leadership started working actively against the McGovern campaign. Withholding money, withholding supplies, withholding people, issuing contradictory orders, and in general making sure things were so fucked up that McGovern was bound to fail. I watched this performance with my very own eyes.

And this pattern continues to this day. When people were in Seattle protesting the WTO a Democratic President turned loose the full fury of the law and his bully pulpit to silence not just any people, but his constituents, his Democratic constituents. Union members, minorities, enviromentalists. So how is the rank and file members to blame again? Gee, we've tried working within the party, but look what it got us, Clinton, the best 'Pug president we've had! The man who really let big business into government with his unconstitutional soft money scheme.

So yeah, we're just a wee bit cynical there bub, and have a damn good reason to be. And just to offer more proof of the Dems duplicity we've watched the spectacle of virtually all the Dems rolling over and pissing on themselves to please their corporate masters and Bushco. You know, things like the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, IWR, and much much more. And gee, the rank and file did their job there too. They called their reps and told them their feelings, told them in overwhelming numbers that they were against the pre-emptive war. At the time the calls were running aprox. 280 to 1 against the IWR. Public polls were all having numbers in the sixties against a unilateral, pre-emptive war. And yet what did the quisling Dems do in the face of all of this pressure from their party members and constituents in general? They overwhelmingly voted for it. So tell one more fucking time how this is my fucking fault!

So enough is enough! It is obvious that both the 'Pugs and the Dems are equally corrupted, the Dems simply put a sugar coat on it. Yes, there are still good people in the party, like Dennis Kucinich. But they are rapidly being driven out, like Cynthia McKinney was. So the only conclusion is that the Dem leadership doesn't want it's base, that it wants to disown the progressive, democratic wing of the party. Well hey, you don't have to tell us twice, you don't want us, we're gone.

And you know what, it is quite the liberating experience to be working FOR something instead of simply working to hold back the tide. The outlook is more optimistic, the energy is great, and simply working in a positive direction puts a whole new light on life. And if you think that the Greens are going to become as corrupt as the Republicrats, well that's going to be tough, since the Greens take NO corporate money.

So if you want to continue to bang your head against the Dem wall for awhile in the hopes that things get better, by all means do it, we all have. But when you get tired of the futility come on over to the Greens where you will be welcomed with open arms and then be able to make a real difference in this country.

[diamondsoul]

93. Try closer to 50 years,

unless Kucinich is elected.*sigh*

Not a single one of those left in the race is going to undo even half of what Bush has done, except Kucinich.

No, I'm not ABB. I'm Pro-Kucinich until the Convention, and if Kucinich is not the nominee I'll vote my conscience in the GE. Be it the Dem nominee, Green or someone else, dammit, I am voting for the person I believe is best for the job, period.

[Goldom]

14. only AFTER getting * out of the white house

can we truly focus on progressive measures. Right now the #1 problem is getting him out. If we fail at that, we'll never have a chance again.

[CWebster]

20. Same as it's ever been.

http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2002/10/21/tomo/index.html


nope.

[JVS]

16. Electoral Heroin, we need a fix every four years.

[Atlant]

17. No.

> If your candidate loses, will you take the ABB Pledge now?

No.

I want real transformation of the Democratic Party (to
assure much greater success in the future) more than I
want to simply eject one elected Republican politician
in one election.

Atlant

[NoPasaran]

19. I think I've taken this pledge before

But if we can put an end to this once and for all I will repeat that I will do everything I can to see that the nominee of the Democratic Party is elected in November 2004.

[beyurslf]

24. Absolutely.

I may have my disagreements with each other candidates (including the one I support) but there is NOTHING I agree with Bush on. If I want a candidate I supported 100%, I would have to run myself.

[RichM]

25. Parties that don't nominate good candidates deserve no support.

If the Democrats nominate Kucinich, I'll support them. Otherwise, I won't. I'm NBAAEC. (Nobody but an excellent candidate.)

[JaneQPublic]

26. "ABB," taken literally, means candidates other than Dems

If ANYBODY means ANYBODY, then wouldn't that include Green, Libertarian, and other candidates?

[Dems Will Win]

32. Actually NO, I'm therefore amending this ABB Pledge

As a vote for any other third party (unless they are close in the polls) is clearly a vote for Bush as is just sitting home on election day.

ABB includes not voting Green or other at this point in time, as a Green vote equals a vote for Bush.

So ABB means you are voting for the Dem (not counting Lieberman or Sharpton) Phew!

[JVS]

35. That is just not true

"As a vote for any other third party (unless they are close in the polls) is clearly a vote for Bush as is just sitting home on election day."

Neither one of those increases Bush's vote count or decreases the Democratic nominee's vote count. It isn't a vote for Bush.

[JaneQPublic]

48. "ABB" means Dems only... and not including Kucinich and Sharpton?

So let me get this straight: We're supposed to support "Anybody But Bush"... but only anybody who's a Democratic candidate... and only those Democratic candidates who are deemed to REALLY have a chance to beat Bush.

I guess Anybody doesn't really mean Anybody, does it?

More and more, "ABB" sounds like just a code word for "shut up, get in line, and vote for the candidate the media and DNC tell you to."

[RegenerationMan]

66. No if DK makes it happily support him or Sharpton

Sharpton however is a great dancer but don't think he will gain enough support to take a brokered convention, that's all. DK miracle plan: brokered convention turns to DK!

[The Mad Hatter]

29. What a sad state of affairs

The Democratic party is morally bankrupt and twists in the wind like a broken reed. That it's still a better choice than the GOP only goes to how deeply corrupt the American political system is. It's sad that you all will have to hold your nose and vote for a pale opportunist like Kerry, just because he's anyone but Bush. Will he really be any better, or will his administration simply be couched in terms more acceptable to American "liberalism"?

[laruemtt]

33. abbie in the appalachians

here.

[DU9598]

34. Of course

I am an Edwards fan, but I am ready to fall in line. I can then hope he gets the VP slot, but if not ... I am ABB all the way. I am thinking how nice it will be to wake up on Jan. 21, 2005 and hoping for Supreme Court retirements. I think with a Democratic President that we could end up with 5 new appointees in the next 4 years. I hope for nice, young, progressive judges who can stay on the court for 35 years - maybe Edwards would be a fitting Chief Justice if no President or VP.

[Dems Will Win]

38. Oh Yeah, the Supreme Court!

I forgot in my list. We can reduce the Felonious Five to the Felonious Four, then Three...

[JVS]

41. Yeah, except that 4 years later, after the GOP goes even farther right..

they'll have some lunatic kill off the liberals and pack the court with televangelists.

[Atlant]

42. With a Republican Senate, how would you propose to do that? (NT)

[creativelcro]

40. I pledge NOT to vote for Kerry.

[RetroLounge]

44. I survived Reagan, Bush 1 and now Bush* 2

so I may just stay home and hunker down until the next time we can nominate a boring status-quo vanilla waffle-master flip-flopping special interest business-as-usual Democrat.

"same as the old boss" - The Who

"same as it ever was" - Talking Heads

"same old song and dance" - Aerosmith

[Babavoom]

76. What a cop out!

Hey, wake up! I'm surprised that as a Dean supporter, you are so stuck in the old thinking that got us here! This time is different! Hey, they are counting on people like you to stay home on election day. So....if you refuse to vote with us, then what are your plans to change things yourself? I'll bet anything you just want to stick your head in the sand and do nothing while the 2nd term Bush continues to destroy the world. I'll take the ABB pledge.

Dems Will Win--I love you!!! You're my favorite poster!

[absyntheNsugar]

49. I'm with ya brother!

ABB - THE ONLY CANDIDATE IN 2004!

[Ficus]

51. I like how Bushes biggest critics

are also the ones who don't show the commitment to remove him.

If you see no difference between Kerry and Bush you

A) are mad your candidate is losing currently
B) have no grasp of public policy beyond IWR or U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act.



Am I disheartened that Dennis K. didn't do better? Yes. Will a John Kerry or John Edwards help move our country in a direction that will enable folks like Dr. Dean or Rep. Kucinich to get elected one day? Yes.

[Atlant]

52. I think my position is a bit more subtle than that.

I simpy don't accept that removing Bush ought to be, not only
the most important item on the Democrat agenda, but seemingly
THE ONLY item on the Democratic agenda.

And focusing on the single, short-term goal of removing Bush
is going to cost the party a lot of long-range success and
may cost the party its (political) life (assuming it has any
political life left in it).

Atlant

[Ficus]

55. I think removing Bush will help

and I think we'll pick up a lot of Senate and Congressional seats with a strong winning candidate at the top of our ticket, whomever that is.

Thanks to all of our candidates, the Democrats DO have a message they have crafted over the next year. Who knows right now who will carry it forward, but it centers vaguely around:

1. ending occupation and bringing democratic government to Iraq ASAP
2. review provisions of the U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act, if not scrap it all together
3. health care expansion (to all if not close to all)
4. Review of NAFTA, and at least adding worker/environmental provisions in it.

These are all positions that our candidates pretty much agree on. It's just the details. Of course some have further left or center positions on this, but NO ONE is RW as Bush on these issues.

[bowens43]

61. ABB demeans our party.

It's bad for our party and bad for our country. I for one will not vote for someone just because they have a (D) next to their name on the ballot. Both of your assumptions, A and B, are ridiculous. Some people have principles that won't be violated for a win. We survived 4 years of bush and if need be, we can survive 4 more. I will not vote for someone I believe to be bad for our party, our country and the world at large.

[Ficus]

67. why

ok, then explain why Kerry is bad for our country and bad for our party.

I too, am a liberal first and a Democrat second. It's not the D that makes me vote for someone.

But to say that John Kerry is some closet RWer is either a lie, because you have some sour grapes about your candidate, or you have no understanding of what John Kerry's career was about besides what you know about IWR or U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act.

Hell, I'm not a Kerry supporter, never have been, but gawd, people who think Kerry is a RWer must have just started following politics.

[bowens43]

86. Who said anything about Kerry?

I certainly didn't. I said that I'm not ABB. Seems to me you read things into my post that weren't there. No sour grapes here, just principle. Something that seems to be in very short supply on DU these days.

As far as politics go, I have been an actively involved Democrat since 1976, I really don't need you to lecture me on Kerry's career or anyone else's.

[Ficus]

95. I did

because realistically this is what this whole damn thread and the countless other ones are about.

I certainly didn't. I said that I'm not ABB. Seems to me you read things into my post that weren't there. No sour grapes here, just principle. Something that seems to be in very short supply on DU these days.

I'd say it is a difference of principles. I assume you just don't think the leading Democrats share your principles. Some here do. Some think that the #1 principle our party should be taking back the White House. Some don't care one way or another. Just because not everyone on DU has YOUR principles and standards, doesn't mean they are all bad folks.

As far as politics go, I have been an actively involved Democrat since 1976, I really don't need you to lecture me on Kerry's career or anyone else's.

I didn't lecture YOU. I just think that some of the things I read on DU about John Kerry, Howard Dean, Wes Clark, or John Edwards are from very uneducated opinions and half statements. I could care less how long you have been an active Democrat.

[bowens43]

107. No, the thread was about taking an ABB oath.

Wow. You really should try to understand what you read. I didn't say anyone was 'bad folks'. In fact in my original post I didn't mention anyone , candidate or otherwise by name. I said that ABB is demeaning to our party and I stand by that.

I am sorry that I'm not so frightened by the thought of 4 more years of bush that I will vote for a candidate just because he has a (D) next to his name. IMO taking back the white house is meaningless if the party ends up being shoved further to the right to do it. I'm not willing to sell out my children's future for a short term gain.

[Ficus]

98. oh and to answer your question

you asked
"who said anything about kerry."

Well, I did. I said that those who say there's no difference between Kerry and Bush have 2 primary reasons for doing so. Because Kerry and Bush are not close by A LONG SHOT.

And then you said, my reasons were false.

And then I continued to talk about John Kerry.

And you asked "who said anything about Kerry?"

Seems to me you read things into my post that weren't there.

seems to me you don't even read whole posts

[bowens43]

108. Your rant has been misapplied.

YOU answered my post with a rant about Kerry, implying that when I said I wasn't ABB that I was opposed to Kerry and that I was angry because my candidate wasn't in the lead. If you can't stick to the subject at hand perhaps you shouldn't answer posts.

[underpants]

81. It's hard to pull the lever when your head is up you a**

Sorry I had to say it. Of course I'm for ABB only an idiot wouldn't be.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. OK. Dem or Green. ABB!!

[bowens43]

57. No.

[hippiegranny]

58. ABB!!!!!

Absolutely, I take the pledge. I have never hated a public official more than I do Bush the Lesser. I have an ANYONE BUT BUSH 2004 sticker on my car right now. As soon as we have a definite nominee, I will replace it with the candidate's sticker.

[dfgrbac]

60. We don't have a choice!

If we want to slow this military Empire down, we have no choice. Bush must be removed from office - by whomever!

But we are still in the Primaries. We have a responsibility to pick the best choice we can, and we should not waiver from that.

Try to educate your friends and get them to educate their friends about this Empire we are living in. Pick the candidate that will do something significant about this situation. Those who are getting money from corporate sources are suspect.

Tell everyone about General Butler:

WAR IS A RACKET,a book by Brigadier General Smedley D. Butler

President and former 4-Star General Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex before leaving the White House. But the whistle was blown on this corruption of our capitalistic system much earlier. In fact, we were warned about its possibility by the founders of the nation in 1776 as Gore Vidal pointed out in DREAMING WAR when he quoted Ben Franklin. Then last century the details of this resulting corruption were explained in clear language after World War I in this book by General Smedley Butler. And although his book was printed, it's revelations were not allowed to enter the consciousness of most Americans. Why? Because the news media didn't follow the scandal and simply let it fade. Most people do understand, however, that WAR impacts our lives like nothing else.

The back cover of the book tells us something even more shocking!

Smedley Darlington Butler took his Constitutional vows seriously, repelling threats to America both without and within. Shortly after retiring from a lauded career, the popular Marine brought down a fascist corporate plot to seize the White House. Concerned for the future of democracy, Butler began to speak out against the venal motives behind many of this countries military actions.

Written during the Great Depression, WAR IS A RACKET pulls no punches against a corrupt military-industrial complex, eager to murder both foreign and native-born children for the sake of profit.

The corporate connection with fascism was exposed as Butler stated, "Pre-World War II worship of Italian Fascism in America can be seen in the July 1934 issue of Fortune magazine, which celebrated the Italian corporatist state."

In Chapter one, Butler says, "A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few make huge fortunes." And he gives many examples.

General Butler also explains how the financial institutions use war bonds to rob the people, and our own soldiers, of their money for the enrichment of the powerful.

Butler's suggestion for smashing the war racket is to take the profit out of war.

"Let the workers in these plants get the same wages - all the workers, all presidents, all executives, all directors, all managers, all bankers - yes, and all generals and all admirals and all officers and all politicians and all government office holders - everyone in the nation to be restricted to a monthly income not to exceed that paid to the soldier in the trenches!"

I highly recommend this book to all Americans - especially after our episode in Iraq. It is short - less than 70 pages - and well worth a little of your time. Maybe it will help my previous question, What will it take - to wake up America?

[bowens43]

64. Certainly we have a choice.

If we have no choice then why bother? We can chose to support bush. We can chose to support the Democratic nominee. We can chose to vote third party. We can chose not to vote at all.

[MrBenchley]

65. ABB

Lieberman, for all his faults wasn't a dishonest psychotic drunk.

As somebody said the other day, I don't care if the Democratic nominee is a pile of aquarium gravel. I'll put a "gravel" sign on my lawn and vote for it.

[progressivebydesign]

69. ABB FOREVER... N/T

[Doomsayer13]

70. ABB!!

I will donate, campaign, and vote for whomever our nominee is

[RegenerationMan]

72. I'm with you, Dems Will Win!

I'm for Kerry, but I will support Dean, Edwards, Clark, DK, Sharpton if he doesn't get it and I WILL NOT VOTE GREEN OR STAY HOME AND LET ROVE AND THOSE MOTHERFUCKING BASTARDS WIN!!!!!

I hope I've made myself clear.

BTW, a lot of the people who have said they're staying home or voting third party will probably be drafted in a second Bush term to carry out the PNAC Plan or write the 100 million lines of code they will need for Lasers and Star Wars.

I agree this will be the last free election and that's why purists have to put aside their ideals this time.

[Mrs. Overall]

73. Definitely ABB!!!

[Forkboy]

75. naaaaaaah

[Nederland]

77. No

Not living in a swing state (I live in Colorado), I feel perfectly comfortable voting my conscience. If come November things in Colorado look really tight I'll vote for whoever the Democrat is. Barring that, I'm not throwing my vote away for ABB.

[edzontar]

78. You ABB-Kerry folks must be getting pretty nervous to keep posting these

And that makes me VERY GLAD.


I hope you sweat it out till the end---I will vote against Bush, and vote for the canddiate that has the statistical best chance of beating him--even if that means holding my nose,, puking my guts, and voting for Kerry.

But I shall sign no pledges.

[Tinoire]

102. I don't think the spirit is as anti-Kerry as it is anti-DLC & DNC

I am still considering Kerry. Still looking at the man who used to be my number 2 and wondering how many of my ideals he really represents. You know how difficult I am and how strongly I believe that if I don't vote my conscience in the election booth, then how can I expect the candidates I vote in to vote theirs.

I don't hold Kerry's IWR vote against him as much as I should because I don't believe in giving Dean and especially Clark a free pass just because they have the luxury of hind-sight when their pre-war statements don't line up with their present stance.

Kerry needs to prove to me that he's not on the same imperial path Clinton and Bush are on before I can vote for him. It seriously is a matter of principle for me & has nothing to do with being anti-Kerry. It has to do with being anti-Iraq war, anti-occupation and anti-Imperialist expansion which means that I am anti all the tools used to accomplish that goal- Monsanto, NAFTA, WTO, IMF etc.

Kerry has also seriously disappointed me on Israel/Palestine by saying one thing in the US last week to appease pro-justice people on one day and then immediately running over to the hawks the next day to "clarify" his statement to the great satisfaction of the Israeli hawks (and it was quite an extreme clarification).

I am not anti-Kerry. I am anti whatever it is Kerry is seeming to represent right now. I feel like he is kicking me in the guts & that I never knew the real Kerry. Will the real John Kerry please stand up? Please prove to me that you are what I thought you were all these years. Please. And then I will be able to vote for you again.

Kucinich

((huge space))

Edwards / Dean (tied overall for different reasons)

Sharpton if he stands a damn chance

and then the line that Kerry is straddling

and then NO, then there is a line I will NOT cross and Kerry is standing damn close to it.

[Ishoutandscream]

79. Yes, I'll take the pledge

We have to be pragmatists here (I know, PRAGMATISTS ON DU?). Your statement about another term for Bush and a draft is spot on. That in itself frightens me, among many others. We have got to get this man out of the White House!

[Nashyra]

82. I will take the ABB pledge but will work my

ass off first to promote the candidates that were grassroot. Sorry I will support and work for the Dem nominee but right now I don't particularly like Kerry, I have a problem with the press picking our candidate, it makes me think that the adminstration has something up their sleeve. The administration needs another curve ball late in the game, the VP selection should be kept under wrap and key so as not to be able to prepare.

[shivaji]

80. yes ABB, but if not Dean then Green

since with Kerry/Edwards/Clark I see more of the same.

[oasis]

85. Bush's "spine" has grown considerably over the past four years. 9/11 gave

a weak pretender the spine he needed to become the most arrogant, reckless leader on the planet. Everything must be viewed through the lens of 9/11.

Democrats and Republicans have been held hostage by the Bushistas because of the national fear of terrorism. Knee-jerk policies, including a needless war, were instituted because of those fears. We all understand that the American people and their representatives were manipulated by those in POWER.

A few posters here would keep those same powers in place because of a personal agenda.

[corporatewhore]

87. No.I want my first time to be special I am not gonna give my first vote to

Kerry Dean Edwards or clark

[underpants]

89. Who does that leave?

Seriously.

[corporatewhore]

92. Kucinich David Cobb

[IndianaGreen]

88. ABB is a DLC lie!

The conflicts within the Democratic leadership, however intense and bitter, are fundamentally over tactics: how best to position the Democratic Party to preempt, if possible, and eviscerate, if necessary, an upsurge of social protest, containing and diverting it along channels that do not threaten the capitalist system as a whole. Whatever their differences with Bush, all of the major Democratic candidates stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Republicans on the most fundamental interests of the ruling class. Hence the insistence—even by those who claim to have opposed the invasion of Iraq—that the United States maintain its occupation and crush the resistance of Iraqi guerrilla forces.

<snip>

In the 2004 campaign, these left-talking politicians will once again seek to put off the critical question of establishing the political independence of the working class from both big business parties. They will seek to divert the mass opposition to Bush behind whichever candidate emerges from the Democratic nomination contest. They all subscribe to the position of “anyone but Bush,” as though Bush were the only weapon of American capitalism, rather than one of many instruments of the ruling elite.

All such “lesser evil” politics are truly a dead end for the working class. There is no shortcut in the struggle against imperialist war and social reaction.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jan2004/stat-j27.shtml

[corporatewhore]

109. good quote

They all subscribe to the position of “anyone but Bush,” as though Bush were the only weapon of American capitalism, rather than one of many instruments of the ruling elite.

[Tinoire]

90. Not no anymore but HELL NO. Get the DLC to take it FIRST!!!!!!!

Get the DLC to take their silly-assed pledge first!!!

I'm taking my country back. Screw them.

The revolution has now officially begun. Let the DLC televise it.


I give up certain principles to even remain a Dem and the best the DLC can do is give me Kucinich = Rumsfeld? How... disgusting. Screw the DLC and the corporations they rode in on & screw the DNC for being over-taken and cowed by the DLC.

-------------------------------------------


IrateCitizen (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-05-04 01:12 PM
Original message

DLC -- Kucinich and Rumsfeld cut from same cloth


Check out the latest winner from Will Marshall, you're sure to be taken aback.

DLC | Blueprint Magazine | January 8, 2004
Stay and Win in Iraq
By Will Marshall
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=252289&kaid=450004&subid=900


Are Dennis Kucinich and Donald Rumsfeld secret allies? You'd think the Democrats' most vocal peacenik and the GOP warlord would have little in common, but both seem to be in a hurry to get U.S. troops out of Iraq. Even with Saddam Hussein in the bag and awaiting trial, that's a bad idea.

<snip>

The escalating violence prompted facile and mostly misleading analogies between Iraq and Vietnam. But in one respect, the comparison is apt: The United States is once again waging a classic counterinsurgency campaign in a country whose culture seems worlds apart from ours. Like it or not, America is back in the business of winning hearts and minds.

<snip>

In fact, the coalition needs more of everything in Iraq: more light infantry, more bureaucrats, more reconstruction workers, more civil affairs officers, more linguists, and more intelligence agents. The most plausible way to meet these needs is to internationalize Iraq's reconstruction, so that we can tap the resources of other countries that have more experience in nation-building than we do. Instead, the administration is counting on Iraqis -- just emerging from a quarter-century of totalitarian terror -- to quickly do the job themselves.

<snip>

The administration has rightly made the democratic transformation of the greater Middle East the grand American project of the 21st century. That job starts in Iraq. If we fail here, our hopes for liberalizing the region will be stillborn. To create a stable, representative government in Baghdad, we need to show total commitment to quelling a motley insurgency that includes remnants of Saddam's security and intelligence services, disgruntled Sunnis, and foreign jihadists. Yet the timing of the administration's troop cuts seems dictated by the campaign calendar, not strategy.

<snip>

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=252289&kaid=450004&subid=900

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=274595#274805

[IndianaGreen]

91. The DLC is another branch of the GOP

We must reject both, and their candidates!

[Tinoire]

94. I can not believe that in the midst of a death-defying election

they would so brazenly play these games and get so arrogantly "in our face" telling us that they have us so "by the balls" that we have no choice but them- as they insult us, the people, and our candidates.

This is how the Christian-Right over-took the Republican Party. I won't stand for it.

[IndianaGreen]

96. I won't stand for it either!

The DLC is as much as an enemy of progressives as the Christian Coalition!

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

99. I won't pledge

- DRAFT possibly 2 or 3 million people to take over the world's oil

So will a whole lot of Dems

- DRAFT 80,000 doctors and nurses up to age 44 (no medical deferments)

So will a whole lot of Dems

- DRAFT tens of thousands of computer experts, linguists, engineers and others up to age 44 (no medical deferments)--and any other occupation the DoD needs

So will a whole lot of Dems

- Arrest, harass thousands of us with the Patriot Act II

So will a whole lot of Dems

- Militarize Space with the new 2 Mw Laser and end all civilian space missions (Mars is a phony distraction)

So will a whole lot of Dems

- Install BBV machines and end democracy as we used to know it

So will a whole lot of Dems

[SW FL Dem]

100. Definitely ABB here

We have way too much to lose if Bush is reelected.

[corporatewhore]

104. the screams of dead soliders and iraqis arebeing muffledbychants of ABB

[FubarFly]

105. Never. n/t

[mvd]

106. Taking the pledge

ABB (actually meaning any of our candidates or person significantly more liberal than Bush - covers a lot of ground) all the way!

[SaintLouisBlues]

110. I serve at the pleasure of the Democratic nominee

Especially when the Unelected Fraud is the opponent.

[FubarFly]

111. It's useless to cut off the head off the hydra if the body

remains intact. We the People must hold our elected servants accountable, and ABB relinquishes this fundamental, and essential duty.