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Individual Liberty, Society, and the Role of the State:

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Full Metal Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 11:33 PM
Original message
Individual Liberty, Society, and the Role of the State:
Individual Liberty, Society, and the Role of the State:

The major problem with modern individualism which Bellah et al. illustrate quite clearly in "Habits of the Heart," is one which arises when individuality becomes more important than the society as a whole and to this end creates a situation where not only is the society harmed but also the well being of the individual. It stands to reason that, because the individual does not live in a vacuum but rather in an interconnected societal structure in which the actions of the individual will ultimately affect the society as a whole then certain restrictions on the individual can justly be set in place in order to have a functioning society. Bella et al would argue that these necessary restrictions were once set in place through institutions; such as, the church and the state but as modern individualism and the focus on utilitarianism became more prevalent to the neglect of biblical individualism and classical republicanism that there is no longer a guiding source of morality as a framework for how the individual should interact with the society around them. Furthermore; if the individual is only conscious of himself then how can it reasonably be expected of him to consider the consequences of his actions on the rest of society?

To illustrate why this problem of modern individualism taking the place of classical republicanism is so important we can use one of the more extreme theories of individual liberty and property called anarcho-capitalism. The anarcho capitalist would assert that the state itself is an unjust monopoly which derives its power through the forced taxation of the citizenry and if one were to adopt the economic policies of total deregulation then the invisible hand of the market could take the place of the state; resulting in true liberty. The Anarcho Capitalist would claim that the state can be abolished, because it is assumed that through the individual doing what is most profitable for himself and in his own self interests that this would ultimately be good for the society as a whole, in that, it stands to reason that it is of course not profitable for a business owner, to say, poison his consumers through a flawed product. Yet, what this anarcho-capitalist model fails to take into account is that which is good for one individual is not always good for the society as a whole. To illustrate this point one could take into consideration that what would be in the best interests of the business owner would be for him to automate all production. This would certainly increase his production capacity and, also, his profit margin by reducing the amount he has to allocate to wages… but at what cost? Well of course that negative impact can clearly be seen in the workers who are now found jobless. So while the individual who owns this hypothetical business would benefit through increasing his net gain by decreasing wage costs, and the individual consumer would benefit through the decrease in prices which would inevitably result through the laws of supply and demand, the individual worker is now left jobless and destitute.

Now how does this disproportional focus on modern individualism to the neglect of classical republicanism relate to the practices of individualism in the United States? The best way to put it into perspective is through the context of the extremes on both sides of the spectrum. On one side of the spectrum we have totalitarianism in which the state is all powerful and individual liberty is non existent and on the other side we have anarchism in which the restrictive functions of the state have been totally abolished and unchecked individualism is the law of the land. Now how would this hypothetical anarchist societal structure function? Well let us first assume that the economic structure of any given society would remain intact and in the case of the United States it would continue to be Capitalism. Now that there is no longer a state to provide for services; such as, security, defense, and education there would now be a demand from the public for private companies to fill the void. The individual upon seeing that there was now a demand for him to provide this security, defense, education, etc., would begin to form privatized police, military, and educational institutions. Now that state regulation has been abolished there would no longer be any checks on monopolies. Individual companies each doing what is in their own economic interests would form into large conglomerates. So now a societal structure is beginning to form which in fact looks very state like. Not only has it taken on the form of the state but through the formation of these large conglomerates in which every aspect of society is controlled by a single entity the society has in fact become totalitarian in nature. In effect the individual liberty which the abolishment of the state was supposed to provide has been all but eliminated and in the place of a government of, by, and for the people, we are now left with a government of, by, and for the government. So we can see in this extreme example of how a focus solely on the individual while ignoring the effect that this individual will have on the society as a whole can in actuality create the opposite of the intended effect.

--Me
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Now, while I'm a big believer in the rights of the individual
I DO NOT consider corporations to be the same as individuals, and consider their assumption of the mantle of "personhood" to be a complete travesty of the original intent of the Constitution and the ideals of America.

My major departure from the whole Libertarian concept (I agree with them on the drug war, and a few other subjects) was when I realized that they somehow expect corporations to be kinder masters than the government, an assumption I consider completely ludicrous. If anything, your average corporation is FAR more authoritarian than the state can possibly be. The STATE doesn't have an interest in drug testing its citizens, while many corporations believe in drug testing all employees, though it's been proven that it has no discernable impact on productivity or absenteeism.

Of course, this is just an example of what I'm talking about.

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Full Metal Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Did you read the whole thing?
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 11:57 PM by Full Metal
It was a total repudiation of the anarcho-capitalist model, corporations don't need the rights of the indiviual to institute tyranny if there is no state to uphold those rights in the first place.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes, I read the whole thing...
The state should be set as a balance for corporate power...I think it should interfere with the lives of citizens as little as possible, but defend us from the transgressions of monied interests.

Corporate personhood is the vehicle they used to chop through the inherent protections originally provided, and revoking this would at least put us on the road to fixing the problems it has caused.
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Full Metal Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Or in other words:
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 12:23 AM by Full Metal
to keep the disproportional acquisition of wealth and the tyranny of the elite at bay.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yup...n/t
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. somewhere along the line, placing societal needs on a plane . . .
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 12:48 AM by OneBlueSky
equal or superior to individual rights became equated with the dreaded Communism . . .

over more than half a century, those in control (i.e. those with the power and the money) have denigrated every aspect of socialism and communism as evil philosophies that threaten individual freedom . . . all they have to do to prevent initiatives designed to benefit society as a whole from taking hold is to call them "socialist" of "communist" in nature . . . as in "socialized medicine," etc. . . .

survival of the human species, however, depends entirely on the ability of humans to live and work together and to build a culture that honors and cares for "the commons" while protecting individual rights and liberties . . . unless and until that happens, I don't see much (any?) hope for the human race . . .
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Full Metal Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Agreed, however,....
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 01:14 AM by Full Metal
to place the society on a pedestal above that of the individual is equally as foolhardy ie a balance must be struck between that which is good for the individual and that which is good for the society as a whole; stray to far in either direction and tyranny will be the natural result. For that reason socialism (even the third way) is not a perfected paradigm but rather the optimal scenario would be one in which the individual actually gives a damn about his fellow man without the coercion or forced redistriubtion of wealth by the state.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I have no problem with forced redistribution of wealth . . .
we live in an abundant universe, with enough for everyone . . .

if only we'd distribute things more fairly . . .
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Full Metal Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. The only thing that ....
the forced redistribution of wealth makes equal is misery.
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