The Flip-flop's on the other foot, Dr. Dean

[Clark4Prez]

I thought the Kerry supporters would like this tidbit, I believe Dean wears a size 11.

From the Washington Post, Tuesday, August 19, 2003; Mr. Dean and Campaign Money Page A18

"Mr. Dean's potential change of heart will open him to some whacks -- and deservedly so -- from his opponents. Back in March, before his candidacy surged to the extent that he could even dream about raising enough on his own to opt out of the system, Mr. Dean warned fellow Democrats (read: Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry) that they would be subject to criticism if they abandoned the limits. "It will be a huge issue . . . because I think most Democrats believe in campaign finance reform," he said back then. At the time, Mr. Kerry was considered the only Democrat with the possible fundraising muscle to forgo matching funds, and the Kerry campaign is still officially keeping its options open."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A11949-2003Aug18¬Found=true

[wyldwolf]

1. But...but...

Amazing some Dean supporter are about to defend this and use their pyschic ability to tell us what Dean really meant...

[Jim Sagle]

2. That was then, this is now. Sorry 'bout the dead guy.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

3. As opposed to the Kreskins in the No Dean camp who claim the same!

Gotcha.

Man wolfie, it's just not your night is it. Better luck next year.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MoonRiver]

7. Divert and deflect

is a tactic effective only with the politically naive. I don't see many of those around here.

:eyes:

[windansea]

9. gotchas are more authentic

when another poster makes them for you

when's your debate with wolfie anyway??

[Scott Lee]

20. I'll let you know when he agrees to one. So far, no dice.

[windansea]

29. he clearly has agreed about 20 times

why are you afraid of a realtime one on one in a chat room??

less distractions...no hide and seek...sounds pretty fair to me

[wyldwolf]

10. No substance to your reply... Another hit-and -run...

... the thread is about Dean.

[Clark4Prez]

13. Gotcha' Part Two

Dr. Dean's closet may soon resemble Imelda Marcos.

Concord Monitor Rivals seize on Dean's flip-flops on issues

September 13, 2003

"But on trade and other issues, Dean has left himself vulnerable to accusations that he has changed his thinking for political reasons - dangerous territory for a candidate who has appointed himself the race's straight talker, as many national political reporters have noted. As Vermont's governor, he was a strong backer of NAFTA - now that he is running for president and aggressively courting union endorsements, he has taken a decidedly more protectionist stance."

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/politics2003/091203deanflipflop_2003.shtml

[Scott Lee]

21. Hold on - its NEWS that politicians change their minds for politics?

Oh dear me, I may faint....so you mean:

When Congresspeople reach a compromise to pass a bill, that's bad?

When a holder of political office changes their mind based on new information, it's bad?

A politico changes their view to appease their constituency (psssst - representative democracy), that's bad?


This could change the world as we know it.

[Clark4Prez]

27. So you admit it!

Dean is just another politician, not one bit different from the "Washington Democrats" he, along with Ann Coulter, loves to attack.

Dean admitting that he is not really any different than Kerry, well that statement, that would be news or NEWS, even!

[Myra]

36. There's definitely one thing Dean and Man Coulter have in common...

Sorry.
It's like cops and donuts.
Never can resist.

Ah, the classics!

[TLM]

5. Has Dean spent over the limits?

Last I heard he had not... so makes this attack rather moot.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oasis]

11. Attn. Dean supporters: You have in your hands the destiny of our nation.

Please be ready, willing and able in the general election to answer the many fumbles and stumbles which have occured during Dr. Dean's campaign.

If you are unable to convince us, your fellow Democrats, it's going to be that much harder to convince an already skeptical general public.

Many of us will be (and should be) voting for Dr. Dean if he becomes the nominee, but as his baggage mounts, he will be a major "hard sell" for us who are not his devotees.

My sincere thanks,

oasis

[Scott Lee]

22. Not according to the Clark supporters.

I think you'd better have a chat with them.

[oasis]

35. You're dodging the issue. You have to sell your guy to the general public.

It's clear many here are not buying. Dean supporters would be well advised get their collective acts together before they take their case to the general public.

You have seen the mainstream media blow minor irregularities out of porportion just to get a front page story. Dr. Dean cannot run an effective campaign while constantly playing defense.

Dean followers who will be doing the door to door canvasing, making phone calls, talking to their co-workers and neighbors, will have to address, point by point, the negative issues which will arise.

It's much easier to brush off annoying questions on a discussion board than it is to convince people to work, or even to vote
for your candidate.

Just something to think about on your bumpy road to the White House.

Good luck

[DemBones DemBones]

40. So very, very true. If they can't sell Dean at DU,

how much power do they have? And how in hell do they think they can sell him to the national electorate. They "poop" whenever he's criticized but we are all in deep poop if Howard Dean wins the nomination. By falling for the media emphasis on Dean and then pushing so hard for his nomination, Dean supporters will be responsible for four more years of Bush in power.

[w4rma]

45. Only Dean and Clark are "selling" on DU, as far as I can tell. (n/t)

[Hoppin_Mad]

12. Urp !

"And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well... our president George W. Bush. We need them there."

Wes Clark, May 11, 2001

[SahaleArm]

14. The date should be noted within the context...

of 9/11/2001 and where we are today. If State wasn't a token department in BushCo's administration we wouldn't be where we are today.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/

[Clark4Prez]

15. A Case of Urpies

"If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."
(Feb. 2003)

- Howard Dean

[oasis]

16. It appears Dr. Dean suspected Saddam of having WMD and favored

unilateral action under certain circumstances. Some of Dean's supporters wanted no action taken against Saddam regardless of WMD. I wonder how they can square that with their choice for the nominee.

John Kerry, of course, is the devil incarnate because he voted for IWR which was essentially the same thing as the Biden-Lugar proposal. The same proposal which Dr. Dean would have voted for.

Oh well, hopefully this won't be coming up too often.

[Scott Lee]

24. key words - "under certain circumstances"

What were those?

1. A certified case that Iraq's weapons were an imminent threat to the USA.

2. We had the backing of the international community.



Neither turned out to be the case. It turned out, Dean was right. Again.

[Donna Zen]

33. Nope

unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."
(Feb. 2003)

Unilateral is not with backing of the international community. That would be multilateral. Not the same at all. And he doesn't specify in that statement the imminent threat bar needed to be met.

His statements actually move around quite a bit.

[Donna Zen]

31. Take the time to read the rest of the speech...

It is the same foreign policy that Clark is advocating today including multilateralism, rebuilding European alliances, and more. What is also apparent is that is the direct opposite of junior's so-called foreign policy.

Now if all you wish to do is continue to post the same out of context hit, then don't bother to read the speech. Although it is informative and interesting, perhaps foreign policy doesn't interest you. BTW, I believe that all of the Democrats in congress voted for and said nice things about junior's foreign policy team even IF they didn't like them personally.

[TorchTheWitch]

37. Urp

"Anyway, a lot of that is in my book. The title of the book is "Waging Modern War"; I'm not going to go through all of that tonight. But I'll just make a small prediction: When this book comes out, it may be World War III. Because when you're there, when you're a general and you're caught up in these things, it's just like politics or business or anything else--you know a lot of people with different ideas. And I hope that we have learned something out of this experience in the Balkans."

~ Wesley Clark, 5/11/01

From the same speech... have you read it? Incidently, it appears that you missed the humorous subtle slam at Rice in that quote or you wouldn't have been so quick to post that particular one. Then again, there are subtle slams at the GOP in most of the cherry picked quotes that on the surface look favorable to the GOP and have gone unnoticed. See if you can figure out even one of them. :evilgrin:

[moz4prez]

38. that's deceiving!

". . . We need them there for the challenges ahead in Europe."

[mouse7]

17. Gotten all the way to Aug. 18th in news, huh? n/t

[wyldwolf]

18. Does the date of the news item matter?

[Scott Lee]

25. Sometimes. If you're betting, do old sports pages help you?

[Donna Zen]

34. Dates

Dates are only of significance if you want to keep something out of the conversation, because of the limitation on who is permitted to evolve and who is forbidden.

[wyldwolf]

39. Ah! Excellent reply! Of course, Scott Lee somehow equates this with...

Sports scores and betting??????

[Clark4Prez]

19. If you can't stand the feet

then don't start the bitchin'

Dean brought this one on himself by attacking another Democrat for the same things he has done.

Wolfie is right, BTW, a flip-flops and waffles don't have expiration dates.

[Lisa0825]

23. poop

:hurts:

[Scott Lee]

26. Maybe we should send the Clark campaign some toilet paper

They say the best gift is a useful one.

[Clark4Prez]

28. That's right

See, after we get to the White House we are going to do a little "spring cleaning", you're invited to help.

[KaraokeKarlton]

30. Dean didn't choose to opt out, he let his supporters vote and decide

And we wanted him to opt out so he can actually compete against Bush. Don't you think it's kind of silly to try to turn us off to Dean over something WE decided for him? :eyes:

[mikehiggins]

32. No way to answer that one

Asking your supporters for permission to do something you want to do could be seen as "passing the buck" but there are those who think it is "sharing the POWER!"

The issue, of course, is that the candidate in question made the FEC deal a major issue when he thought it to his advantage, no big deal when he felt it wasn't.

My actual point to all this is that those who think their candidate is NOT a professional politician who has spent his life working and compromising and making deals within the Democratic Party is likely to be very disappointed unless that candidate's name is Wesley Clark.

[retyred]

41. Sorry to burst your bubble

but dean had already decided to opt out before ("asking?) his supporters, asking his supporters was pandering once again by making it seem to be their choice, it appears "You have the power" to do things as long as it's what the rev. dean wants.


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[Romberry]

43. LOL!! You can't burst a bubble that isn't there.

Dean and Trippi laid the cards on the table and put the issue to a vote. That's a simple fact. Stop spinning and never forget that sour grapes make for bad whine.

[Romberry]

42. Your post is the definition of old news

Just because Clark has chosen to unilaterally disarm against Bush does not mean that anyone who actually hopes to win the election -- as opposed to merely winning the nomination -- should follow him over the cliff.

Dean and Trippi realized that they had to be in a position to fight back. They told their supporters what the issue was and let them decide on opting in or option out. The rest is history.

[Clark4Prez]

44. Ummmm, I guess you've been on vacation

Cause Clark has been on the attack even yesterday, let me give you something to take home with you:

"Clark argued on Monday's "Inside Politics" that the continued intelligence about threats was a result of the Bush Administration's preoccupation with Iraq. He said the heightened alert status is a sign that "we've been putting our resources into the wrong area."

Clark added: "At one point, the president even wanted to say Iraq was the central front in the war on terrorism. But it clearly is not. It wasn't. And many of us have been saying for well over a year, that this was going to be a distraction from the war on terror, that it wasn't going to help us win against Osama bin Laden."

• Democratic front-runner Howard Dean -- usually not one to shy away from taking on President Bush, has opted for a low key approach, not commenting specifically on the new orange alert." CNN Inside Politics 12/25/03

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/24/judy.desk.dems.alert/index.html

But that's not the issue, the issue is flip-flops and if you think you can take an arguement like "that's old news" to the GE, you have much to learn about politics. They will eat a weak defense like for a snack. Thank you for playing and please come again.