kick me off the board now Skinner

[WWW]

But does anyone else think that some of the anti-front runner posters on DU are really Republican plants? Are they really Democrats looking for a healthy discussion? Or are they looking to disrupt us? I don't know. Your thoughts?

[Jerseycoa]

1. I see some teeny post numbers

And I wonder.

[creativelcro]

44. I wonder about those too... But I'm no Republican and I am ABK!

Sorry to bust your theory...

[lancdem]

2. Some might be

:shrug:

[Iverson]

3. principled objections are unthinkable

Good grief!!

[goobergunch]

4. Actually back when I first joined DU

there were a lot more (proportionally) Dean and Kucinich supporters than there are now.

:shrug:

[LoZoccolo]

5. Did you think this was the case when Dean was the front-runner?

I agree that it's not good to use unfair attacks that might hurt Kerry's chances in the general election, but this is what was happening to Dean up until right after Iowa. In the interest of honesty and fair American politics, this really should stop.

[mrdmk]

6. Who knows

It is hard to say. Does make for interesting reading and research though.:tinfoilhat:

[greatauntoftriplets]

7. We are not allowed to disagree with you?

I voted for McGovern in 1972, Carter in 1976 and 1980, Mondale in 1984, Dukakis in 1988, Clinton in 1992 and 1996 and Gore in 2000. I plan to vote for Wesley Clark in the Illinois primary.

Do you have that same solid Democratic voting record? Note: I was too young to vote in the 1968 presidential election.

[WWW]

18. yes I do n/t

[LandOLincoln]

I can top that. I voted for those guys plus Lyndon Johnson in

1964, and when I was grubbing around in my mother's attic over Christmas, looking for family photos to put on CD, I found a button I'd bought in the fall of 1960 at a rally for JFK on the quadrangle of the UIUC campus in Urbana (I was 17 and a freshman).

It says, "If I were 21 I'd vote for Kennedy," I consider it my Democrat bona fides, and I was planning to present it to Wesley Clark last Monday at the Hispanic Cultural Center here in Albuquerque, as one real Democrat to another. Howard Dean, eat yer heart out.

Unfortunately his staff were very rushed after the rally (Clark was affable and gracious as always, however) and I chickened out, not wanting to be seen to be hogging the limelight.

Maybe next time... :dem:

(edited because I'm responding to post #7, not the original message)

[shance]

8. Of course they are.

But it doesnt seem to be license enough to have them escorted out the cyber door.

[NNN0LHI]

9. Yea. I am a deep cover Republican plant

How many times do I have to say it. We are on an anonymous internet chat board. We don't know who anyone is. Geesh.

Don

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

10. I really don't get that feeling

I think the anti-Kerry posts are largely from frustrated (Democrat) supporters of other candidates.

This is a place to vent, and people are venting. Many Democrats have their reservations about Kerry. I do not see it as a problem.

For me: Kerry/Edwards/ABB

[bushwakker]

11. This place is supoosed to be Democratic Underground

at times it seems like Green Party Underground.

[goobergunch]

16. It's supposed to be a liberal message board

Representing the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party - not the DLC Wing of the same.

---the Goobergunch---
DUer since April 21, 2003

[Dookus]

25. sez who?

[mrdmk]

45. Read the rules

WHO IS WELCOME ON DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, AND WHO IS NOT

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.

This is a "big tent" message board. We welcome a wide range of progressive opinion. You will likely encounter many points of view here that you disagree with.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[aquart]

52. Opposition serves to clarify one's thoughts and sharpen one's arguments.

We're not lockstep yesmen.

I'll vote Kerry in November if he wins. Not before. Got qualms.

[Kanary]

38. NOT the DLC! Hurrah!

Thanks for the reminder, Goobergunch, because we're going to have to do a lot of fighting to regain that Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party!

Kanary :hi: :hi: :hi:

[ModerateMiddle]

46. Really.

Says who? I was under the impression that this really was the Democratic underground, not the "Most Liberal of All" underground.

I am a very moderate voter, and while I sometimes feel vastly outnumbered by the very vocal very left wing, I do know that there are others here that have tendencies quite like my own.

[MAlibdem]

28. Watch yourself, bud

I got warned for a similiar comment, odd though...there seems to be a sentiment that unless you are radical, you are weak. Principled views come from across the political spectrum.

[ModerateMiddle]

50. Amen

"Principled views come from across the political spectrum."

Crucify me now, if you like (not you, but you know what I mean), but there are lots of Republicans that I find very principled, honest and with lots of integrity.

This current administration doesn't represent Republican principles. They represent a decade long effort by the Bush I players to "get even" and make sure their guy gets re-elected. Every single thing they do is based on that philosophy and some weird Oedipal thing.

[Melinda]

53. Since you're new here, I'd like to share a "rule" with you:

1. This is a message board for Democrats and other progressives.

If you weren't new, you wouldn't have made the statement you did. LoL, this changeling forum is hardly GREEN these days. Welcome to DU. :)

[waldenx]

12. John Kerry is a disruptor

He has backstabbed veterans, anti-war protesters, senior citizens, homosexuals, and the working class. If you want examples, I will post them.

[Killarney]

51. Inflammatory and wrong

He has a 93% liberal voting record!

[Redneck Socialist]

13. Get over it.

If you can't handle Kerry getting whacked now, there is no way you will survive the general election. Plenty of people don't like Kerry and folks on DU are not shy about sharing their opinions. Expressing said dislike does not necessarily make them republicans.

[NashVegas]

26. LOL! Did You -

Copy that verbatim from some of the posts we saw last autumn?

[Redneck Socialist]

36. No, but the...

abuse heaped on Dean back then is never far from my mind whenever Kerry supporters get upset about the flak aimed at their guy.

Fer Christ's sakes guys, this is politics. It is dirty, nasty, ugly and mean and will only get more so as the general election nears. I think we all need to develop thicker skins around here.

[Renew Deal]

14. They are non dems and non pubs looking for unhealthy discussion

Not all, but there are several.

[angryinoville]

21. I'm just upset ...

That John Kerry and Edwards have garnered so much positive attention, and the candidates that I've rooted for have received negative (Dean) or very little (Clark). I think I'm just disappointed in America for not embracing the change that either of these two could bring to this country. If Dean is out, then I'm going with Wes. Anyone else with me?

[MoonRiver]

31. Thanks for your support of Wes Clark. It is much appreciated.

We have to be careful not to expect everything to be changed immediately. I think Selection 2000 was our wake-up call. A lot of liberal and Democratic momentum began after than horror. Then 9/11 happened and * made his long planned complete power grab. The country was engulfed in complete turmoil.

Now, after the Iraq war fiasco, moderates and conservatives are starting to have grave reservations about the BFEE (even if they've never seen that acronym). We've got a shot at taking our country back and possibly avoiding becoming an international pariah, along the lines of Nazi Germany. Let's get the really, really, really bad guys out, and then work to take the Dem party back to its roots.

[MoonRiver]

15. It's crossed my mind (a lot) more than once.

But I also believe there are many who simply have very inflexible ideas about who the Democratic Party should nominate. I probably agree with 90% of their positions and beliefs. However, I know that change cannot happen over night. And, unless we immediately take back at least one branch of our government, dissent and liberal principles will soon become part of American folklore.

[The Magistrate]

17. This Sort Of Thing Is Nonsense, Ma'am

The allegation one's opponents are plants and shills from the other side is an unfortunate staple of discourse here, and a damned foolish one. The people who denounce Democratic Party figures who are likely to prove popular with the general electorate of the country do so from an excess of zeal compounded with pride and poor judgement. It is doubly unfortunate that the course they urge would have the effect of aiding the victory of the worst elements of reaction in our country.


"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

19. No, I think they are people disappointed and hurt that their

candidate is doing so badly after they expected him to walk away with the nomination. So now they are lashing out at Kerry because he's winning.

[The Traveler]

20. Me? A repub? Hehehe

Low posting numbers not withstanding (tend to read more than I write here) I remain an unabashed Clark supporter and Dean fan.

I just don't trust Kerry. Never have. Never will. But ... I dislike him less that I dislike the Shrubman and his jack booted goon squad. So if (poor us) Kerry wins the nomination, he'll have my vote.

[arcos]

22. yeah, but when Dean was the frontrunner...

the "Republican plants" were his supporters, right?

:eyes:

[WWW]

30. No not at all, many posters were against Dean n/t

[MrSlayer]

23. I'm certainly not a Repuke.

I'm for my guy. The best guy to win the whole thing.

[NashVegas]

24. This is Just Normal Vetting

At least, that's what I heard when supporters of the previous front-runner suggested as much.

[frustrated_lefty]

27. Mike Malloy said on 2/4

"Kerry needs to grow a pair." Who'd a' thunk it? Malloys been a deep undercover pub mole all this time!

[Cuban_Liberal]

29. God forbid anyone would object to the coronation of Sen. Kerry.

:eyes:

[mopinko]

32. i hope so

i am pretty dissappointed to see the level of discourse that goes on here sometimes. threads about issues seem to sink like stones. but we can talk about "sheeple" for days and days. yup, i'm hopin'

[JNelson6563]

33. I could see if some 50+ new posters showed up

all sporting names that somehow included their candidate's name and all they did was slam a certain candidate. Yep, that might make me suspect.

I do not see that happening now, it did several months ago though.

Julie

[amber dog democrat]

34. just think of them as catylists

helping us to weigh and evaluate all kinds of perspectives.

[Virgil]

35. You can assume there are

I am not one, but you can believe there are. The Republicans will do everything they can to win. You can believe they will produce a yawn factor in the Democrats and call on their base.

You can also believe there are Kerry supporters putting up polls and herding people to support him with the electability argument. Kucinich can beat Bush hands down. Single-payer universal health care, End NAFTA, cut the bloated defense budget since we probably will not get attacked this year, bust up the media and stuff like that. Of course with opinions like that why would the Democratic base get excited. Kerry is electable. Good luck if you send out Kerry. It will be the worst party ever against the worst president ever.

[Terwilliger]

42. hey

what do you think about E_Johnson?

[Lexingtonian]

37. they're conservatives

As I've gathered-

Dean supporters ~ Northern conservative-leaning Democrats
Clark supporters ~ Midwestern conservative-leaning Democrats
Edwards supporters ~ Southern Democrats

This isn't strictly the case, but works pretty well as an approximation when trying to predict where they'll do well. And a few vocal ones around here seem to be struggling with their Inner Republican, at least that's what their blythe use of RNC talking points (which annoys me rather more than their contrarianism) suggests to me.

[Duder]

39. They might be Anti - Doles

[Terwilliger]

40. I am a disruptor

Do with that what is necessary.

[WWW]

43. I don't understand why anyone would want to be a disruptor at t his time

[Cuban_Liberal]

48. Maybe because they don't believe Sen. Kerry is the best we can do?

Ya think that could be it, maybe?

[Tom Rinaldo]

41. Here's my hit.

More smears against our candidates are probably spread per minute on sites like this than Ross Limbaugh could ever dream of uttering. Much of the time we innocently fall right into it, pick up a right wing hit virus, and become effective carriers of it, spreading doubt and dissension within our own ranks, all in the name of helping our preferred candidate.

Most of the time it is completely unwitting, but I don't believe for an instant that there aren't at least some infiltrators trying to seed conflicts, and planting those infections. Back in my old movement days the term used for those operatives was "agent provocateurs". All grass roots movements had to assume they were present among us. I believe the FBI even got an agent planted as the bodyguard of a Black Panther leader. Sometimes it helps to be an old 60's activist, because many of us already sent for and received our personal FBI files. We have the hard evidence that agents really were used to infiltrate and disrupt our political organizations, and we know that some (not all) of them were quite skillful at what they did.

Nowadays I see people using the term "trolls" for bulletin board mischief, but it goes far beyond that. This is a highly specialized dirty politics political art. Think about it, our government funds and maintains large programs dedicated to "psychological warfare", to be employed, theoretically, only against our international enemies. We KNOW the CIA has destabilized foreign governments. There is a refined methodology that is used to disrupt organizations and governments. It's use targets the media, labor organizations, business associations, political parties and more. Do you think for a minute that the Republican Party hasn't by now found and employed a few agents skilled in their use, to work on their behalf domestically?

I am not paranoid enough to think our "enemies" here work for the FBI or CIA etc, but we might encounter alumni from their ranks, and those trained by them, who are now working on behalf of the Bush team. Think of Nixon's plumbers, except now they don't have to resort to physical break ins, since political strategy plays out online. Given what we know and believe about the Bush administration and those propping it up, why would they NOT attempt to disrupt the democratic process of the Democratic Party, the institution seeking their removal from power? Why would they NOT attempt to sow discord through web sites where Democrats gather?

The thing is, effective agents almost always mimic passionate, or disgruntled, true believers, and they do that extremely well. Usually it is impossible to distinguish one from the other. There are always a few posters who I suspect are disingenuous. The problem is, I know that 9 out of 10 times my suspicions would prove to be totally unfounded. We will all lose BIG TIME if we get into a witch hunt mentality here. Should that ever occur they will have hit the jackpot. A witch hunt would create the ultimate form of disruption, getting us all to suspect each other's motives rather than honestly debating our differences.

So what to do? DON"T PASS ON ATTACKS AGAINST OUR CANDIDATES unless you are dead certain, and I mean CERTAIN, that they are accurate. If you get caught inadvertently participating in a hit job against one of our candidates (and we should all always be on the look out for this), come back online and apologize and admit that you jumped to a hasty decision and examine how that happened. Then join in the efforts to actively debunk that line of attack WHETHER OR NOT you are a supporter of the victim Democrat. If someone who professes loyalty to your own candidate obsessively engages in sharp attacks on another candidate, call him or her for that behavior. Don't let it happen in your name. We have to control our own process before we can take back our own country.

[ulysses]

47. 577 posts - I can't call you a disruptor

but you can call me one?

[kovasb]

49. Its a great way to test smears.

Im convinced that some of the negative posts are repug operatives, testing smears.

Perhaps DU is just ahead of the curve, but i consistently see attacks on this board that only later make their way into the media.

As a clark supporter perhaps my recollection is distorted, but im pretty sure the distortions of clark's congress testimony started cropping up here before the the republican network started pushing it in the standard outlets.

Its a pretty smart strategy.

[wyldwolf]

54. I think they're bitter far lefties who can't accept that...

..their guy with extreme narrow appeal isn't winning.

[Moderator]

55. Locking.......

If you wish a reply from Admin, please post your question in the Ask the Administrator forum.

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DU Moderator