Can the US ever gain back respect *without* sending Bush to the Hague?

[Stinky The Clown]

To censure or not censure.

To impeach or not impeach.

To criminally charge or not criminally charge?

These ideas have been batted around for a while. What do you think? My concern here is not revenge, not a payback for Clinton. It is about the standing of MY country in the court of world opinion.

Will simply putting a new brand of leadership (presumably Democratic) in the White House be enough? If the next president gets on his knees before the UN, will that do it?

I fear neither one will do a damned thing for our standing in the world. The first is likely to be seen as more of the same but in a shade of blue rather than red. The spectacle of the second I find abhorrent in the extreme. The world knows full well that our country has been hijacked. It is up to our country and our country alone to clean our house.

How far do you think we need to take that?

[Joe Bacon]

1. It will take at least a generation to undo the damage Bush has done.

BUT it will take centuries to undo the debt.

[alvarezadams]

27. It'll take far more than a generation

"Anti-Americanism" largely became "mainstream" abroad around the time of McCarthy. In a world caught between 2 nuclear swords of Damocles most of the world realized that it wasn't just the Ruskies at fault... and McCarthy lead people to question American custodianship of nuclear weapons.

Vietnam, Haiti, Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, etc. etc. etc. made it increasingly clear to many that the US suffered from a major divorce between its purported ideals and its behaviour. Economic colonialism didn't help much either.

I live in Europe and I have never seen it so bad. Spaniards aren't exactly happy about the "appeasement" claims of the American right (as if the March bombings suddenly changed a support for an illegal war that was already marked by a +85% rejection). Yet the topper - the event that turned rather vague anti-Americanism directed against a government into a more specific anti-Americanism that encompasses far more --- was the reelection of Dubya.

The American people spoke. Discounting allegations of election-tampering, an incredibly large part of the American people embraced Dubya, leading to


It's going to take far longer than a generation - espcially since even Dem potus' have been truant over the years. It will take a recognition of past errors and a verifiable articulation of new policies to repair the damage... and that just ain't gonna happen any time soon.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. In the same way it took at least a generation after Vietnam or Korea?

Never overestimate the importance of the present. In a decade or two, Bush's deeds will look unimportant compared to those of the presidents who come after him.

[Warpy]

2. Only if he's tried and convicted right here

along with all his neocon helpers.

That's the only thing that's gonna do it, Stinky. Otherwise, it's just window dressing and nobody's going to believe he was an aberration instead of business as usual.

[knowbody0]

3. I would wager that he would not be deemed

competent to stand trial. He is certifiably insane.

[C_U_L8R]

4. nope sorry can't be done

Bush has got to go

[goddess40]

5. Wouldn't that be wonderful

I can't think of anything that would be more fitting - that's why the republican's distance themselves from the rest of the world. They like to believe they answer to no one.

[orpupilofnature57]

7. Always in the moment ,'Brownie yer doing a helluva job' sociopaths!

[orpupilofnature57]

6. The voice of dissent ,in this case the voice of sanity, informed people

in other parts of the world know how most of us feel about the war and Shrub .

[Kutjara]

8. We don't necessarily need to send him Haguewards.

There is a quicker and easier precedent for dealing with fascist leaders who've overstepped the mark. Just ask the Italians.

And we've even got Condi to share his fate. Best of all is that it will be his own most loyal former supporters who deliver the humiliation. Historical symmetry and poetic justice in one neat package.

[karynnj]

9. I think that it can be done without charging Bush

I think with a new President who firmly rejected what had been done and worked to solve problems through democracy, it would happen. The world, for the most part, wants to believe in us - because the alternative is too awful.

It would have been much easier had Kerry won in 2004. It would have shown that Americans rejected Bush. In addition, Kerry was unique in being able to use his history (1971) to add belivability to promises in 2005 that he would abide by internation law and he would have called the summit on Iraq that he spoke of in 2004, 2005 and 2006. That Kerry was as close to the opposite of Bush as you can get - the world may have reacted very well, very quickly. (Kerry's history of going after corruption would likely lead him to at least demand that all the facts be found and released.)

In 2008, I would assume that any new President would be both courted by the world and viewed with suspicion by the world. His/her actions would determine which view the world takes.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. While it perhaps *can* be done without charging Bush ......

.... maybe the better question is 'should it be done without charging Bush?'

As *they* so love to say: Actions have consequences. Would we not all be better off with an example having been made of what happens to people who steal the greatest seat of power the world has ever known and then use it for personal gain, self-agrandizement, and a move toward near total centralization of world power?

Those words may soud flowery, but they're quite true.

[karynnj]

25. A couple of years ago, I might have said that avoiding charges

would be best to facilitate healing. But, I can see that doing precisely that - dropping all investigation into all the inappropriate activities of the GHWB presidency - led to all the culprits being rehabilitated and now running the government.

Something is wrong when an Oliver North, who was released only on a techicality, but who clearly broke the law during Iran/Contra could have a news show where - without disclosing the fact that Senator Kerry's investigation ended his illegal actions - could speak on Senator Kerry's character and career.

So, while the world might not require it, the US might need it.

[snappyturtle]

10. I vote for all three: new (Democratic) leadership, Bush on his knees

before the UN AND (drumroll) IMPEACHMENT! It's like the cherry on a sundae.....just think of it like that----sundaes are not abhorrent.

[bridgit]

12. good question, i'm not sure it will be ultimately up to us if...

the outcry of the world is substantial regardless of rumsfeld's circumvention of articles that speak to war crimes...

to restore a civil respect for america?

it may be enough to ferret out the ill & pernicious behaviors of this criminal admin (and they are many & legion), and let them be seen for what they are, let the world see that 'we the people' are concerned and have extracted their malignancy for the benefit of the world; for the benefit of america; but there can be no in-between imo, it will have to be a product of our system having worked as it was designed

they will have to stand before some bar and answer for something, i am sorry that they are not prone to do so; but it simply has to be

[Stinky The Clown]

13. My worry, long term, is a Democratic win in 08, then 'business as usual'

.... but with a Democratic flavor.

Once the mmiscreants are out of office, it is ever so likely the country will say 'well, he's gone, let it be.'

[bridgit]

15. apathy is what has sustained his ass in there, when he is gone...

some will be writing pieces that will uncover even more than is conceivable now is my thought...but you're right = on to golf, on to starbucks, on to wherever we need to be

[Zhade]

33. Your fear has a precedent. Many, actually.

One such example - Clinton. Read Kevin Philips' American Dynasty to get a feel for how Clinton essentially dropped serious law-breaking by his predecessor in the name of political expediency.

[PresidentWar]

14. Its going to take decades. Brace yourselves.

The damage these creeps have done to our nation and our system is almost unimaginable. In my 46 years I have never seen my nation so despised, my people so besieged, my president and government so hated and laughed at than at the current time.

We have slaughtered over 100,000 innocents in Iraq, and uncounted thousands in Afghanistan because of our sick, misguided military force. We have imprisoned hundreds, or thousands, of others illegally in almost any view of the established law. We increase the ranks of our enemies every DAY. And those that we kill have offspring that will likely have all the reason in the world to grow up and strike at us again.

You tell me how quickly all tihs can be fixed.

[SPCAworks]

16. the world court thing

is stupid... I wouldn't want ANY AMERICAN to face any trial or jury NOT ESTABLISHED for in the constitution. Not Clinton, Bush, Lincoln, Washington or FDR... doesn't matter who. If we have the political power and will to impeach.. so be it.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. Impeachment is, by definition, a political measure

What the administration has done are actual crimes .... actions that are counter to written, codified law. They carry prescribed punishments.

How is impeachment, at year 6+, any better than just putting in a Dem in 08?

Impeachment is a start ...... but only that.

[SPCAworks]

18. impeachment is good

and provided for in the constitution. World court is BS. Founding fathers would turn over in graves at the thought of an all powerful European world court.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Man, you really distrust those pesky Europeans, dontcha?

[SPCAworks]

20. lol...

no I just believe in the true roots of the USA, and we WILL be great AGAIN. This is just a bad dream.

[alvarezadams]

29. It's been a nightmare

for well over a century.

[alvarezadams]

28. Would they?

After all the World Court was an American intiative.

It's all about accountability, something the FF's certainly believed in.

[Zhade]

34. You find the Hague stupid?

Interesting.

So tell me, does that distaste extend to all world leaders, all world citizens? Do you believe they should likewise not be tried in a world court?

If not, it's a hypocritical double-standard you're espousing.

[niyad]

37. you specifically exempted americans--do you think people from other

countries can be tried by the ICC? or are you simply swallowing the *co crap wholesale about how above international law america is? or do you think that some international body to try war crimes, etc., is NOT a good thing?

[leesa]

21. How long can we continue to ignore our criminals? He lied to Congress to

start a war. There is no doubt about it. It is an impeachable offense. He committed war crimes as the CIC. There is no doubt about it. He violated the Constitution by conducting warrentless wiretapping. He admits he broke the law.

If we ignore his criminal activity we will never have any respect anywhere in the world.

[rubberducky]

22. Impeachment is a must!

To gain back ANY respect in the world. We have to be firm about this. A Hague type world court?? I think that is up to the rest of the world. But, we MUST impeach first. We are going to need a true statesman to bring back any peace and tranquility here at home, let alone abroad.

[badgerpup]

23. Let me don my flame-retardant suit here...

Impeachment first.
He and his cabal have screwed this country, the country for which we trusted them to care for and run responsibly...over royally.
This must be done, and SEEN to be done by the people who live in this country. This is an internal matter and should be handled by internal law.
BUT:
The next stop on the "George Bush And His PNAC Neocons Tour of Shame" must be the Hague.
It isn't just this country he's screwed over. He has committed war crimes and affected other countries profoundly by doing so. Not just in the mistreatment of prisoners, but in starting hostilities under false pretenses, keeping them going, fomenting unrest and war in other areas, interfering with the diplomatic process...all in the name of personal gain.

These is are external matters and should be handled so, and be seen by the rest of the world that they are indeed done.
Only that in that way will we begin to repair our credibility with the countries that have been affected and the rest of the world.
Do we really want to set a precendent of giving a pass to war criminals just because they are wealthy and white and well-connected?

We can't just say "Oh, we're America! Those silly laws about trying war criminals? They don't apply to US!"
That's the irresponsible, neocon, neoxtian mindset. It's caused much of the trouble we have in this country now and we want to eradicate it ASAP.

[IndianaGreen]

24. No! Bush, Cheney & Co must be tried for war crimes at The Hague

and that's only the first step! The second step is a reversal of Bush's policies, foreign and domestic, including restoring Constitutional rule and civil liberties.

Our days as a superpower are over! And that's not a bad thing...

[TheWatcher]

26. NO.

[watercolors]

31. I want to see Bush , Rice and Cheney at the Hague

brought up for crimes against humanity!

[Zhade]

32. NO.

This country failed to hold traitors accountable for their crimes during IranContra, to use one example, which allowed those PNACers driving this administration to return to power.

[AZBlue]

35. I don't see how.

We "elected" him twice - it's the only way I see.

[fuzzyball]

36. And what if the country elects ANOTHER repug in 2008?

Then the world will really hate us. We need another
smooth talking Clinton clone to run in 2008 and win
the hearts of voters in 2008. Kerry is a good guy but
has little charm compared to Billy Jefferson.

[tavalon]

39. No, we need a true populist

Clinton was Republican lite in many ways. It's time to scrape ourselves clean of the nastiness that is the rightward lurch of this country.

By the way, his name is William Jefferson Clinton. He has been known as Bill Clinton. This Billy thing you've got going on seems disrespectful and appears to be a subtle dig. Is it?

[zonkers]

38. Winning back our own respect is the first step.

[paulk]

40. I doubt very much that the American people would accept a

US President being tried in an international court. It would be political suicide for any politician to suggest it.
I believe that option isn't even on the table.

If there are any criminal charges to be brought, they will have to be pursued in an American court. If Congressional investigations reveal that Bush is open to criminal charges - then he and his accomplices should be charged - but it might be better to wait until he's out of office - remember, as President he has the right to pardon....

That leaves impeachment. I've mixed feelings about that. If it can be shown that he has committed impeachable offenses, then impeachment should be pursued - but, only if the overwhelming majority of the American people demand it. It can't be seen as a partisan witch hunt. And keep in mind that the MSM will NOT be on our side.

Personally, it's my opinion that sweeping the neocons out of office in the next two elections will go a long way toward helping our standing in the world. Most of the rest of the world wants to believe in the American ideal.