How many generations are needed to assimilate?

[Stinky The Clown]

We are a nation of immigrants and our population continues to grow through immigration.

In your view, or from your own personal experience, how many generations must pass for the progeny of immigrants to be fully assimilated into the population?

Obviously one can't change one's physical traits - often the first and most obvious way in which one's ethnicity is known or at least assumed. But one's mindset can and most certainly does change.

My grandparents, though they were all naturalized, always thought of themselves as Italians who moved to America. My parents thought of themselves as American's with immigrant parents. I think of myself as an American through and through who has an emotional or cultural affinity for things Italian. My children have little sense of their ethnicity apart from whatever aspects of it might be seen as 'cool'.

I also suspect that skin tone or facial features change the calculus as compared to caucasian immigrants.

The above is the main topic of this thread.

The secondary topic is what, if any, political impact comes from this process of assimilation?

[dorktv]

1. 3

[LostInAnomie]

2. From what I have read in sociology text books...

... it takes about three the be fully assimilated.

[Stinky The Clown]

3. Three, as you say, is the 'common wisdom' ....... but what about ....

..... those of us who are physically distinct from the 'typical' citizen (white european)? That may be skin color. But it is just as easily other physical traits. Do people who are 'obviously ethnic' assimilate at a different rate? Not by choice, but because of societal influences (prejudices, really).

[Solon]

10. Generally de facto segregation hinders the assimilation process...

at least in some ways. Usually when a mass amount of immigrants enter the nation, they usually end up in one of two places, Ghettos(the first were Irish), or out in the countryside(think Scandivanian immigrants, many Germans as well). In all these cases, language assimilation can be hindered, though usually by the 2nd to 3rd generation, well over 90% are bilingual. In many of these types of cases, this can further be hindered if the group is deviates from White America a little too much, therefore they can't, physically, assimilate.

In such cases, they usually stay clustered in their own groups, more out of survival than anything else. Examples of this include the Chinese(Chinatowns), Mexicans(Chicanotowns), etc. Usually these groups don't even bother to try to assimilate into the larger culture, for two reasons, there are legal obstacles in the way, or the larger culture is outright hostile to them existing within it. In response, subcultures spring up that are defense mechanisms, many people that live in these ethnic areas may rarely speak English within their own group.

The thing to remember is this, it can take a REALLY long time, for some groups, well over 6 generations, to fully assimilate, but eventually it always happens. It also matters, somewhat, as to whether a group is confined to a specific area for a long time(Mexicans in the southwest), or there are several mass immigrations to the same area(Irish in the Northeast).

There are two obvious exceptions, Native Americans and African Americans, the reasons are more obvious, one group the larger culture tried to eradicate, the other they enslaved. In both instances, both were legally forced to segragate from the larger culture, and therefore in many cases tried to either create or recreate the cultures they lost.

Now, one thing to keep in mind is this, assimilation is not a one way street, cultures evolve and change due to immigrations. The United States of 1776 was largely an Anglo based culture, today the United States has much more variety in it. Some examples are obvious(St. Patrick's Day, Oktoberfest, Cinco de Mayo), others are less so(language evolution).

[Stinky The Clown]

23. Let's look closer at those people who live in 'ghettos' by choice ......

.... and to be clear, I'm using 'ghetto' in the sense of an ethnically similar area where people live, not as a synonym for 'slum'.

Is it fair to say that an ethnically Chinese person, just as an example, who is 8th or 10th generation American, who is a fully involved citizen, who votes, pays taxes, joins the military and maybe even runs for political office, but who also chooses to live in a 'Chinatown' and to continue to speak Mandarin (perhaps even as a first language) any less assimilated into American life than the son of a DAR member?

[Solon]

37. I would say no...

Look, I didn't make a value judgement, just stating some facts. Personally I don't even like the word "Assimilate", think of the Americanized bastardization of ethnic names that has occured when immigrants get citizenship here. Hell, in some cases the Immigrants themselves will change their names to sound more "American", this I find sad.

[LostInAnomie]

11. In short, no.

Assimilation has more to do with a person's own acceptance and exhibiting of the culture they live in. If a person lives in a community where they are surrounded by the dominant culture, after the third generation, they will exhibit the behavior of that dominant culture. Unless, for some reason, an individual is completely submerged in a subculture where they are not exposed to the dominant culture.

[Totally Committed]

4. In my experience, it was two (I am second-generation)...

My grandmother came here from Italy when she was 15 years old, and died at the age of 80 still barely speaking English. None of my grandparent's kids graduated from high school; all went to work around the age of 14; all married first-generation Italians like themselves by the age of 18; all of them spoke mostly Italian at home. It was only when my generation came along that I feel we were fully assimilated. As the first grandchild, I was the first in my family to graduate from high school, and then the first to graduate from college. I was also the first to have a profession and not just a job.

TC

[Stinky The Clown]

8. TC .......

..... did you mean to say that you're parents are 'second' generation rather than first? You wrote ".... all married second-generation Italians like themselves by the age of 18 ....."

Just clarifying. It may be a difference in terms. For example: My grandparents were immigrants. My parents, born here, are first generation, I am second generation.

[Totally Committed]

14. No, I'm second generation...

My grandparents were all born in Italy, and their children were all born here. That's does make me second generation, doesn't it?

TC

[Totally Committed]

17. That was clearly a typo... I meant to say "first-generation" not second.

I fixed it. Thanks!

TC

[Mountainman]

12. We have similar backgrounds. My grand parents were from Naples

They moved here just after the turn of the century 1900. They never spoke English. My mother had 5 sisters and 2 brothers. They lived in an Italian neighborhood in Pittsburgh. When my mothers family married, most of them married non Italians. When my grand mother died so did the speaking of Italian in our homes. I never learned Italian and could hardly communicate with my grandmother. My grandfather died before I was born but I saw pictures of him.
All my cousins were fully assimilated when born. So counting my mother's and my generation, it was 2.

[pooja]

5. I don't think it matters about race.

It has become a big talking bubble head for the upcoming election... but lets face it, we didn't just wake up a couple of months ago and find illegal immigrants working in America.

Also, I think that kids find it pretty cool to speak 2 or 3 languages. I know, I know I'm jumping the gun, American children seem to have a hard time comprehending English let alone another language.

Anyway, I know people now of Spanish dessent who have assimilated so well they don't even speak Spanish. And I also don't think that children have huge issues with other races. They play with whom they want to and they bully the one's they want to and it isn't necesarily over race... maybe being a nerd, or something like that.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. PLEASE don't make this about illegal immigrants.

That was NOT the intent and to do so will move the discussion WAY off topic.

[pooja]

13. sorry, I didn't know where you were intending with the differences bit.

I am not meaning to offend... I wouldn't even know what assimilation is... my grandmother still lives in the house she was born in and I think its been in the family for about 160yrs now....

[Stinky The Clown]

20. No offense taken ... I just wanted to clarify the topic for everyone's ...

.... benefit.

I recall, many years ago, when I moved to the south for the first time, I asked a young woman (my age, cuz I was a young man at the time :) ) 'where is your family from?' She gave me a not-so-kind look and said Columbia (South Carolina). I later learned she was mainly Scotch-Irish, with many other ethnicities thrown in over the years. But that was essentially meaningless to her. She was American to the core. She did, however, identify as "Southern" to my "Yankee".

Side note: Is an American regional identification a form of ethnicity?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. True story about linguistic assimilation

When I was taking a summer session in Hawaii one year, one of our instructors was Japanese-American, a sansei (grandchild of immigrants).

When she was six years old, her parents wanted to send her to Japanese-language Saturday school, and she said not to bother because she'd speak it when she was an old lady.

The reasoning behind this remark was that she had observed that in her neighborhood, the old people spoke only or almost entirely in Japanese, her parents' generation spoke in Japanese about half the time, and her generation spoke no more than a few words. She took this to mean that people gradually switched from English to Japanese as they got older. :-)

[BadgerKid]

6. Empirically, 2 or 3

Interesting topic. Sometime you'll see 2 and 3 merged with very forward-looking immigrants.

1st, the immigrants: starting a new life, they are fighting for survival and are hard-working.
2nd: The children are conflicted, torn between the values of their parents and the culture that surrounds them. For example, the parents might believe in arranged marriages or prefer their children to marry from the same race or caste, whereas the children want to be with whomever.
3rd: It's the wish of the children that their children be free of the conflicts they had faced. These grandchildren tend to be fully assimilated.

[fooj]

9. Hey, my nono and nona immigrated from Northern Italy...

Artichoke growers...

[Totally Committed]

16. My grandfather always called himself an "American" once he was here,

but my grandmother would tell me that since she and my grandfather were from Sicily and my father's parents were from the Boot, that I was "half Sicilian and half Italian"... She referred to all northern Italians as "Swedes". LOL!

TC

[AIJ Alom]

15. In my case....one...

I'm a first generation naturalized Bengali-American. I came when I was 4. Then again in the case of my siblings it will take 1 more generation inspite of the fact they are younger than me.

The greatest thing about this melting pot of ours is that each new flavor that's introduced only makes the stew better.

Jack

[Stinky The Clown]

22. A few things ......

.... first, your 'stew' analysis. I agree completely. We are made richer by each new cultural contribution. Even bad ones, actually, as it makes us more aware of the world, reduces romanticism and allows us to see things as they are and not as we wish them to be. (The Italian mafia comes to mind).

Next, how is that you feel assimilated yet your younger siblings will need more time? that seems counterintuitive.

Have you ever felt as an 'outsider' by virtue of what I am (perhaps wrongly) assuming to be a darker skin tone and a more or less obvious overall 'look'? I'm not that culturally aware of Indian culture, and especially Indian subcultures, so I readily admit I may be wrong in my assumptions based solely on your having self-identified as 'Bengali-American'.

[Sinti]

18. I think it largely depends on the individuals, and the culture around them

If the culture does not accept you, assimilation is nearly impossible. This happens with immigrants of different races (Asian, Middle Eastern, Hispanic, etc.) in certain parts of America. Those immigrants generally move to a more accepting area, and three (four or at most) five gens later are pretty much just Americans.

For my family 1 generation, my mother was born in France, became a naturalized American citizen, my sis and I are Americans - while we have an appreciation for the culture my mother came from, we are Americans to the core - with no desire to return. Customarily, our manners and mannerisms, however, reveal the flavor of our roots - oftentimes people ask where we're from, and we tell them, right here.

Now, this is all nice and happy, unless we reveal our familial roots (Sinti/Roma = Gypsy) . If we tell people about our familial background we get fired, shunned, my son got thoroughly slammed at school (by teachers not classmates) and so on. The behavioral change is like night and day for almost everyone. So we keep it on the low. It's kind of a don't ask/don't tell policy.

Assimilation, therefore, is a two-way street. The more accepting the culture is, the faster people assimilate into it.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. That's a very interesting perspective

If you identify as 'French' (which you are) there's no issue, but allow an indetification with associated prejudice to be known and you're shunned. I know I'm grossly oversimplifying here, but that would give weight to the notion that assimilation is, indeed, hindered by the ethnic traits that have prejudice associated with them.

[Sinti]

21. I think so. If ethnicity can be hidden, red haired/green eyed Persians,

for instance, no one has a problem - until they say "I'm from Iran".

We, meaning human beings, have a lot of growing up to do. We really need to realize that it's the soul of the being that's important, not the packaging that soul comes in. We're a work in progress - please pardon our dust ;)

[pink-o]

24. I also am 2nd generation American...

...I'm 51 years old, and my Dad, the 1st generation yank, was born in 1924. His family came over from Russia and Poland after one too many pogroms drove them out. (As Jon Stewart says, we are the Fiddler-on-the-roof people) His parents and grandparents were hopelessly ethic, and my dad wanted to be a real American. He grew up speaking Yiddish, and can speak fluent German (the 2 are very similar) but never taught it to me. My sister and I are just generic European white girls who never practiced Judaism. So in my case, I agree--depending on your skin colour, it takes 2 generations to assimilate.

As for all you Italian descendents, I wonder how many speak Italian? I think your people are very proud of their culture, (and in my opinion, justifiable so. Italy is the most beautiful country in Europe) and they don't want it to die with the next generation. In my family, there was this underlying idea that you left the past behind and didn't encourage your children to act too Jewish. And where I don't believe a word of the religion, the culture has a lot to love about it. (Old world Judaism, not the sabra-zionist-Israeli part of it.)

In my work, very few of us are Anglo, so once or twice a year we have an International pot luck lunch, where we each cook a dish from our culture. It's very cool, because sampling ethnic food is a wonderful way to build a bridge to each other. Food, music and sports tend to knock down all xenophobic walls; it's how I got rid of my residual racism and became friends with people my grandparents never would have associated with.

As the poster before me said, all exchange of culture is enriching and enlightening.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. On 'shedding' one's ethnicity ......

I grew up in a house next door to the one my father was born in. My grandparents on both sides spoke Italian as a first language, with both grandmothers far less fluent in English than my grandfathers. As a result, we spoke Italian in their company. Then there were the Italian newspapers and the Italian radioon stations and the Italian merchants, etc., etc. By the time I was in school I wanted to be anything *but* Italian. Ethnic wasn't 'cool'.

All these years later, I can speak a tiny, tiny bit, but I still have some semi-respectable level of comprehension, although not enough to even be able to read it. I wish that weren't the case. But that's now. Then ..... I wanted to be a WASP.

[yorkiemommie1]

34. i work at an ESL school for adults

At the end of each quarter, each class has a potluck and they invite us, who work in the office. Boy, do we enjoy ourselves!! And yes, everything is delicious!

[pink-o]

25. Hey, I forgot to mention...

In the bad old days, when black and brown people "knew their place" white snobbery only encompassed other white people--usually eastern and southern European immigrants. Consequently, I know the ethnicity of just about every surname that comes across my ticket counter at the airlines. People are impressed because I can pronounce most of them, or I ask them (especially the Italians) what region they're from. Little do they know it was drummed into me so I would be able to choose the "proper" friends from the "proper" class.

I don't think younger people have the same knowledge, because after civil rights the snobbery and prejudice was more likely to be directed towards a Leroy Jackson than a Giovanni Delatorre or and Ira Rosenbaum.

[pratzen]

27. "How many generations to assimilate?" - Depends on the immigrant

If an immigrant comes here legally, that traditionally means
they specifically wish to become an American, and voluntarily
immerse themselves in American culture by learning its common
language, history, and traditions.
When an immigrant comes illegally, it too frequently results
in disregard for this country's laws and traditions, and
becomes a choice instead to speak only native language and
retain allegiance to their country of origin. Visitors of this
kind may never assimilate. If enough of them come, they may
assimilate us.
  

[Stinky The Clown]

28. This thread is NOT about illegal immigration

And so I will not be replying to your post and encourage others not to do so, either.

Had you taken the time to read what so far has been posted, you'd have seen this already mentioned.

[pratzen]

38. "This thread is NOT about illegal immigration"

Sorry officer - for mentioning the most non-trivial dynamic of
assimilation in America.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. You wanna talk about that ......

.... start your own thread. Don't piss on mine.

K?

[Bridget Burke]

42. Well, your user name sounds a bit Germanic....

Unless you're a (insert British slang) who practices Zen....

[Finder]

29. 3 if you consider immigrants first generation, 2 if you mean US born. n/t

[SemiCharmedQuark]

30. Well, I think second generation usually is a link between the two

cultures and third generation is completely in "American" culture.

[Odin2005]

31. My Dad's side took 2 generations.

My great-grandparents immigrated from Norway in 1901. My dad's generation was the first in my family to become fully assilated.

[NMDemDist2]

32. one. children born here and raised here are Americans and seem to

handle our culture fine

course, my ancestors came on the Mayflower and I'm a Daughter of the American Revolution and I have folks who traveled over the Cumberland Trail with Dan'l Boone and an ancestor who was on the Lewis and Clark expedition, so I'm no judge for sure.

:shrug:

[yorkiemommie1]

33. two for us

3 of my 4 grandparents were born in china. I only knew one grandma and she ever spoke of china.

With my parents it was the food, a little of the language ( mostly cuss words ) and that was about it. Going to a Chinese restaurant was a treat as we ate spaghetti, meatloaf other 'American foods' at home. To my regret, I refused to take Chinese language lessons after school like some of the other kids did.

My husband is of Dutch ancestry and his experience pretty much parallels mine.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. I think you're right about three generations

In the maternal line, my grandmother was born two weeks after her parents arrived from Germany. (She used to joke that she had "Made in Germany" stamped on the back of her neck.)

Her parents never really assimilated, but they never went back to Germany either, and toward the end of their lives, they spoke a weird mixture of English and German that was hard to understand for anyone who didn't know both languages.

My grandmother and her siblings were raised in German, but they and the other children of German immigrants that they knew preferred to speak English among themselves, although they would switch into German if they didn't want the non-German kids to know what they were saying. My grandmother's German was definitely Americanized, and the only sibling who remained a fluent speaker was her younger sister, who married a German immigrant and spent long periods of time in the old country.

My grandmother married a Latvian immigrant, so my mother grew up with English as the dominant language of the home, although she spent a lot of time wiith the German relatives and found German to be an easy "A" when she took it in high school. (The Latvian relatives were and still are back in Latvia, so her Latvian heritage played little part in her childhood.)

My mother married my father, who was the son of Norwegian immigrants. He understood Norwegian but didn't speak it very well. Naturally, we grew up English-dominant, although my German great-grandmother was still alive until I was 20, and during my early years, a lot of relatives came to visit from Germany, so I, too, grew up understanding German and finding it to be an easy "A" in high school.

My brothers' children have NO discernible connection with their ethnic heritage, since they are now fourth generation on both sides. They've done genealogical projects in school, and they enjoy the German and Norwegian Christmas goodies that are popular in Minnesota, but they've never had the spooky experience that my brothers and I had in our teens, namely going to Europe and meeting people in Germany and Norway who looked like us or other relatives back in the States. Imagine going to an island in Norway full of your relatives and keeping their names and faces straight by reminding yourself of who they look like back in Minnesota.

[Bridget Burke]

40. How does one define "assimilate"?

Being a loyal American & a useful member of our society? Speaking English & only English?

Becoming a WASP? (Only relevant for the melanin-deficient.)

[Stinky The Clown]

41. What are you really asking?

I can't think, given your examples, that your question was without an agenda.

[Bridget Burke]

43. Perhaps I've read too much sociology & anthropology.

I'm quibbling over definitions, not expressing an "agenda."

Hardcore xenophobes define "assimilation" as the opposite of "multiculturalism." I definitely do NOT consider you a member of that knuckle-dragging crew. But they regard White Anglo-Saxon Protestants as the only "real" Americans & want all immigrants to achieve that norm. They yearn for a blandly uniform USA which never actually existed.

Some Native Born Texans speak more Spanish than English--although English is usually #1. Our Czechs proudly preserve their language & culture after several generations. In fact, they & other Central European immigrants taught the Tejanos how to polka. The Creoles & Cajuns of Louisiana (& Texas) still speak a bit of their versions of French & revel in their distinctive music & cuisine. (Sometimes the culture is revived, not handed down directly.) But all these groups consider themselves Good Americans. So do I.

Immigrant groups adapt to US "mainstream" culture but also change that culture. And some groups retain features of their "old" culture more than others.

My mother's side of the family was fairly "assimilated." Early deaths & dispersion to distant parts of the country were factors--not simply a desire to conform.

My father's parents came from East Galway. Raised in a New England milltown, he was beaten up for being a "foreigner." I don't remember him, but have the flag that he wore to his wake. It's red, white & blue.