Book: Bush told reporter Jews are 'all going to hell'

[Human Torch]

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Book_Bush_told_reporter_Jews_are_0902.html

Larisa Alexandrovna
Published: Saturday September 2, 2006

An upcoming book about presidential advisor Karl Rove reports allegations of anti-semitism by President George W. Bush, RAW STORY has learned.

In The Architect: Karl Rove and the Master Plan for Absolute Power, Austin-based journalist James Moore and Wayne Slater, senior political reporter for the Dallas Morning News, will allege that Bush once made anti-semitic comments to a reporter.

"You know what I'm gonna tell those Jews when I get to Israel, don't you Herman?" a then Governor George W. Bush allegedly asked a reporter for the Austin American-Statesman.

When the journalist, Ken Herman, replied that he did not know, Bush reportedly delivered the punch line: "I'm telling 'em they're all going to hell." This quip never received wider media attention.

[fooj]

1. No surprise there.

He's no friend of Israel.

[unblock]

4. he likes israel. it's the jews he hates.

[liberal N proud]

9. Israel as a state is necessary for his Christian front

The jews are a menace to him.

[orwell]

28. Israel as a state...

...is necessary for a brisk arms trade.

[leesa]

58. You nailed it. It's all about making money selling arms starting wars,

contracting for post-war rebuilding, making more war, selling more arms, contracting for rebuilding, an endless profit cycle.

[Sinti]

2. IIRC all Protestants believe that everyone that doesn't accept Jesus

Christ as their personal savior goes to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200. In their eyes Gandhi goes to hell. Have they changed their position?

[dorktv]

3. well from what I understand it is based on something in the bible about

how Jesus says "accept Him and God and nothing else." So if you do anything other then worship God and like Jesus, you are not really obeying Him.

[tridim]

6. Right, as written by a group of HUMANS with the ultimate agenda

and then translated, rewritten and mangled many times since to focus that agenda.

[dorktv]

10. yep...humans writing long after the Savior died and then copied and

had wine spilled on it...and everything.

Jesus probably said something like "this is the best path to Heaven but our Father is way cooler then that dudes."

Or whatever the local lingo was at that time.

[pink-o]

23. Genesis Revisted:

...In the beginning, Man created God.

[mopinko]

26. i have to comment on that pic in your sig.

i appreciate the sentiment. but, i would be creeped out if that was my kid. i don't like to see kids used like that. especially ones that young.
maybe that's just me.

[tridim]

33. You might be right.. I didn't even think about that

It's Mike Malloy's kid BTW and he has the pics on his website.

Edit: I removed it.

[mopinko]

36. i recognized her,

and i saw it a few times before i said anything. i do know that mike and kathy are very proud of molly, and she is part of everything they do. maybe they would be okay with it. they have certainly shared her with their fans. but i also know that she has been the target of some of the nutjobs out there.
see liberals are that way. you point something out to them, they think about it. then they do the right thing. thanks.

[JerseygirlCT]

31. It's more like

nobody comes to the Father except through me.

Which could as easily be understood as a gift toward all humanity, regardless of their beliefs. We're dealing with translations of translations of the memories of a fallible human who was supposedly an eye witness here -- hard to be so very certain about the meaning, although many seem to feel that certainty.

[dorktv]

70. "I am always right because everything I know is right."

[JerseygirlCT]

76. I see a whole lot of that. It's so much more uncomfortable

apparently, to deal with nuance.

I think for some people there is a nearly desperate need for black and white, right vs wrong, absolute rules thinking. I suppose then they can be sure they're on the "right" side.

I surely can't live there. I suspect most of us here cannot.

[dorktv]

79. Easy answers...people are not allowed to think anymore.

[Human Torch]

5. Not just Protestants, it's a basic Christian tenet...

...that yes, those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior go to heaven, and those who don't, don't.

The fundies make statements like Bush (allegedly) made. Non-fundie Christians (such as myself) don't, and they don't endorse Bush.

My belief is that one day we'll all find out who was "right." Until then, my faith is my faith, and everybody else's is everybody else's. I don't preach, nor do I allow myself to be preached to.

:patriot:

[Sinti]

7. The Catholics don't really follow this, or didn't when I was in Catholic

education. For teh Catholic Church, a well behaved non-believer goes to purgatory then on to Heaven. However, they may have changed that rule in the 20+ years I haven't been one. This is why I specified Protestants. :)

[dipsydoodle]

12. Yes - but given that purgatory

must by definaition be a lesser place than heaven - what if purgatory is in Hawaii. That would mean that the non believers were onto a good thing. :)

[knitter4democracy]

30. They modified the theology a bit in Vatican II.

According to a Catholic religion teacher I used to teach with, the Catholic Church teaches that there are Christians (baptized believers who believe the entire Nicene Creed)and "Heart Christians" (good people who follow their faith and are Christ-like in their heart and actions).

St. Paul also wrote that people who have not heard the Gospel of Christ will be judged according to their faith. Evangelicals like to ignore that one, even though they love and follow St. Paul more closely than other Christians. I figure that he meant that it'll all be okay as long as we stick to what Jesus preached: love God, and love everyone else.

[Human Torch]

41. I've lost track of the changes...

I started out Catholic, when a large portion of the Mass was in Latin and the message was pretty stern. Then I took a big break from the Catholic Church, tried a few others, and came full circle.

Following the guidelines you've posted, it looks like I won't be seeing "43" in Heaven...



:-)

[knitter4democracy]

61. Well, I wouldn't presume to know, but . . .

Let's just say he should be praying hard for mercy. :)

[ldf]

21. it gets worse

i was raised in north florida, in a fundamentalist (NOT evangelical) Church of Christ. (we were hardcore, but didn't shove it in people's faces.)

the church believed in literal interpretation (anyone who adds to or takes away shall burn).

therefore, according to them, there are only two churches mentioned in the bible, the Church of Christ and the Church of God.

ALL (and that means ALL) others will burn in hell.

i finally saw the light and am now a devout atheist.

[JerseygirlCT]

49. That might have had the same effect on me

Boy, how very loving! /sarcasm.

[BlueStorm]

34. My mom just chewed a lady out last night...

"I don't preach, nor do I allow myself to be preached to." -Human Torch, a few posts up.

That's my mom... we had to take my oldest niece to the hospital last night again, she was having pains in her stomach. The previous night they diagnosed her with constipation but yesterday she slept all day and my sister was concerned about it...

Anyways, this lady that was in the same room was talking to us and it was getting on my sister's and mom's nerves. She kept asking, "Have we tried this, have tried that?" She even asked if it would be alright to "share some verses" My mom politely said "no" at the time. Well at one point the lady asked "Have you tried prayer." and that's when my mom went off. She said "You need to stop that, we are a religious family, I almost died 12 times so I know about God and prayer." in which the lady said "Well you are a miracle." and my mom said "Yeah I am." My mom is not a fundie but she does believe in Christ and she does believe in the End Times. She actually is quite open to all kinds of faiths but hearing her go off like that was just something.

BLue

[peacetalksforall]

78. It was the first tenet I questioned and the first I rejected.

I prefer to live by the tenets 'all men are created equal' and 'love thy neighbor'.

Notice what this story means - more proof of hypocrisy. They tried to create mr macho man in a suit and tie who could meed diplomats from every place in the world, but they needed to cover up a lot of history. They're not going to succeed with the cover ups.

[dipsydoodle]

8. I think you might mean

American Protestants. I never known that viewpoint to be pushed in the UK or even joked about between friends of different faiths.

[Sinti]

13. Perhaps, what's the non-US Protestant position on non-believers?

Is it the same as the Catholics - purgatory and whatnot?

[dipsydoodle]

59. I can really only speak for England

and as I see it. There are no extremist views on that subject as far as I aware almost as if believers believe that provided you're nice to people, regardless of their faith, you'll go somewhere good. I've never had a Catholic even mention the subject not that they necessarily would have had cause to do so. There are divisions in the Protestant faith here anyway more often brought about by parentage than anything else - the majority being what is classed Church of England.

I have noticed over recent years "bunches" springing up here and there almost like protestant whoopee brigades. They seem to be attended mainly by youngsters and they are definately not cults of any description. Here's an example : http://ship-of-fools.com/Mystery/mws_05/reports/1061.html Purpose seems to be to bring happiness back to religion. Not a bad idea really - having no threats. :)

[Sinti]

60. Thanks for the education edwardlindy and JerseygirlCT down/up thread

I really appreciate it :)

[JerseygirlCT]

29. Too broad a brush, and incorrect

Many more conservative or fundamentalist Protestants do, to some extent or another.

Many more liberal do not -- it's not their decision, it's God's. And some of us really wacky liberals think there is no hell, and a loving God loves us all -- equally. Crazy of me, huh?

[Sinti]

40. These are just the differences between the churches I was taught by the

priest in Catholic education.

Protestant = no pope, salvation by faith alone.

Catholic = yes pope, salvation by faith and deeds.

A Catholic priest is probably not the best expert to consult on what the other half thinks, though I have heard many protestants insist that it's faith alone. :shrug: I don't know if most liberal Christians really think it through that far - they're too busy with the whole 'love thy neighbor' rule, let alone the 'thou shalt not judge' rule.

I didn't intent to paint all individuals with the same brush - it was just my understanding of the basic doctrine.

[JerseygirlCT]

48. Not your fault

I just think, coming by choice to a more Protestant denomination from the Catholic church of my birth, that there is a huge amount of disparity within Protestantism. I suppose you're more likely to find similarities to the RCC with the Protestant denominations that were directly a result of the Reformation -- the Anglicans/Episcopalians, the Lutherans etc.

And personally, I have a more universalistic view which may put me more toward the margins of my adopted Episcopal church. But then again, unlike many newer and more fundamentalist churches, we are not required to hew to one dogma, and we are not required to check our brains at the door!

It's sure hard to pin anything down with certainty these days, isn't it, lol?

[struggle4progress]

32. Maybe it's difficult to decide exactly what "all Protestants believe"

[Charlie Brown]

73. "all protestants" do not believe that

In particular the Unitarian-Universalist Church and the United Church of Christ hold that salvation is possible without accepting Jesus.

Even many Evangelical congregations believe that salvation is possible outside of Christ by living a moral life and according to an ethical code, even though accepting Jesus is the "preferred" means.

Paul himself said that non-believers are eligible for salvation in the New Testament:

"When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Romans 2: 1-16)

This prognosis is not what fundamentalists believe, but there is a Biblical basis for it.

[Sinti]

75. Yep, I got schooled if you look up thread. Thanks, though :) n/t

[JohnyCanuck]

11. Shrub better hope there is no hell,

because if there is, he is likely to find himself in the deepest, stinkiest, and hottest recesses hell has to offer.

Matthew 7:21:
21 Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?'

23 Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

http://bible.cc/matthew/7-22.htm

[cornermouse]

22. Don't forget the one about the millstone.

and yep, I agree. He's broken about every single rule in the bible.

[saltpoint]

14. Wasn't there, don't know, but it would not surprise me if Bush were

anti-Semitic.

If he is -- again I have no clinical proof -- it means he is using Israel as a prop for his oiligarchy plans in the Middle East, coaxing support from fundie fatcats with deep pockets, persuading them that he is a "Christian" obliged to "protect" Israel. And oil was all it was ever about for the entire Bush family and their cozy ties with the Saudi Royal family.

Yuck.

[jberryhill]

62. No more so than "christian" = "anti-semite"

There are certainly denominational variations, but "christian" religions tend toward a belief that Jesus was the Messiah - in other words that those of the Jewish faith do not recognize the fulfilment of their own prophesies, and are mistaken.

So, if any variation of "Jews are wrong" is "anti-semitic", then I don't see how any professing christian is not an anti-semite.

The practical question is whether and how one respects fellow human beings, regardless of what works for you spiritually and individually.

You can get an adherent of almost any religious faith to utter something "offensive" in response to a pointed question about what their faith says about non-believers. A lot of christian denominations hold that non-christians are going to hell. That's hardly news, nor does it reflect that any believer in same has a personal *desire* that anyone else go to hell. To them, it's not their decision to make for anyone else.

[saltpoint]

67. I acknowledge "Judeo-Christians" who see continuity of God's

intervention with humankind as beginning in Genesis, an Old Testament text; nevertheless these folks' insistence that they are "Christians" provokes the scrutiny you seem willing to lend it.

In Dubya's case, I personally do not believe he is capable of advanced, layered ethical constructs. I think he's a brush-clearer, a pathological liar, an Oedipally-tormented little boy, and therefore unaligned with any ethical alliance, no matter the label.

[Benhurst]

15. As a Presbyterian youth I was taught all good people

would go to heaven.

As for the Catholic Church, I remembered John Paul II had said something similar, so I did a quick "Google" search and found this about the present pope:

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.

http://biblelight.net/non-christians-saved.htm

Bush is an idiot and not a follower of the teachings of Christ.

I am an agnostic, but I certainly do not judge the Christian community by the actions and thoughts of such a man as Bush and those who follow him.

[papau]

16. Thanks for posting the fact that Xtians believe all good folk go to heaven

The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly the sufferings of life; will enter God's kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. -- Pope John Paul at St. Peter's square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

The atheist Sam Harris calls this "Christians using the loophole of "Grace" ", thus avoiding Sam's many theories and statements on the evil of religion.

:-)

[Benhurst]

17. And thank you for finding the quotation from John Paul II. I fear

I'm feeling a bit lazy today, so when I found the one from Benedict XVI, I stopped my search, thinking it sufficient to make my point. I'll add the John Paul II statement to my files.

[Canuckistanian]

18. Good choice of picture in the article - Bush and Lieberman

I wonder if Lieberman knows that Shrubbolini believes that 'Holy Joe' is going to Hell.

Cognitive dissonance seems to be mandatory for Bushbots.

[proud patriot]

19. Contained in "Fortunate Son" and "Shrub" as well

:hi:

[Human Torch]

42. That was in Shrub?

It's been a while since I've read it. If the story came from Molly Ivins (or, in the case of Raw Story's post, Moore & Slater), I think it's safe to say that it happened. There are some "loose cannon" journalists out there, but these folks certainly are not among them.

:patriot:

[muesa]

20. His love of Israel is only as a counterforce to the Oil Shieks

and his love of Jews doesn't even extend to the 22% who voted for him

[mikelgb]

24. yes when they were trying to brainwash me in youth group

they would say you are SOL unless some missionary comes to actually inform you that 'Jesus' exists and that if you don't love and accept it you are going to hell no matter how good you live your life and no matter how bad i live mine. As long as I love jesus and remember to repent all my sins I'm a show in.

[pink-o]

25. I just contend a sociopath like Bush really doesn't have prejudice...

...Except when it comes to people who can't further his agenda. We know he's indifferent to poor people; it's just because The System keeps African Americans down that most poor people are also black. I mean psycho Bush was even nice to a transsexual who was part of his little Yalie class reunion--I almost fell over when I heard that. Then I realised if someone travels in Georgie's rarified sphere it doesn't matter if that person has pecadillos that fundie Xians can't deal with, Idiot Son is fine with him. That's why the whole disconnect about gays; pResident really doesn't hate them, but he pays lip service to the base. Same with Jews.

I stand by this because I am Jewish--ethnically, not religiously (my religion is called Agnosticism.) and I know for anti-Semitism. For years I knew Mel hated us, he didn't need to spout off upon getting arrested in Malibu. But I never got that vibe from Bush.

There's plenty reasons to despise the bastard for, Anti-Semitism isn't one of them.

[immoderate]

35. It's verbal diarrhea!

You are assuming he thinks about what he says. I think this is an example of Bush speaking reflexively. It was probably followed by his trademark "Heh heh!"

I don't see him as anti-Semitic. He likes Jews who kis his ass. And has no use for those who don't.

--IMM

[pink-o]

37. Absolutely

Correct!!!

Notice he only really fucks up when his handlers lose control of him.

A sociopath with a thought disorder. No wonder he wants Rumsfailed to stay in office, he feels a total kinship!

[Ninja Jordan]

27. This guy is PRESIDENT!

We have a sociopath as president!

[krispos42]

46. Don't remind me!

I get depressed every time I think that.

Well, actually I think he's really President* Bush...


*The accuracy of this term is subject to debate

[davidwparker]

38. This was also in Kitty Kelly's book, "The Family."

When it came to light, he is reported to say it hurt me that you'd think I condemn somebody to hell. It hurt me.

This is apparently the excuse that *'s like to give when comments that they make come out.

[Human Torch]

56. "It hurt me that you caught me. It hurt me."

So many things wrong with that statement, beginning with "it hurt me that you'd think I condemn somebody to hell"...

It's a well known fact that Bush sees himself as The Messiah, but a quick look in the mirror would reveal that he's nothing more than an A.W.O.L., Oedipal, Substance-Abusing, War Mongering, Chickenhawk little shit who robs the henhouse and then tells the chickens he mourns for the loss of their eggs.

:evilgrin:

[IndianaGreen]

39. There is no Hell

but I am not surprised that Bush would say the same crap that others of his religious faith parrot all the time.

Blame it on a theology that teaches that no one reaches G-d without first going thru Jay-Zeus.

[krispos42]

45. I thought is was "Hey, Zeus!" lmao n/t

[Voltaire99]

83. Without Hell, it's hard to sell tickets to heaven.

Works a treat, apparently. But enough about religion.

Instead let me recommend to any fantasy and sf readers The Descent, Jeff Long's terrific 1999 re-imagining of hell which completely denatures it of Christian identity to give us a subterranean kingdom populated by creatures that man just can't leave alone...

[PresidentWar]

43. This is true - but waaaaay old info.

J.H. Hatfield wrote of some similar incident in his prophetic book about the Warchimp called "Fortunate Son". Run, do not walk, to the local bookstore and get it. It was an early warning on what was going to come with the Bushhole years, and the Bushistas were not only successful in nearly crushing it's release, but possibly in offing Mr. Hatfield as well. Yes, he was another loud and effective anti-Bush voice that was strangely "suicided" (like Steve Kangas). OK, tin foil hat off.

[krispos42]

44. To his brand of Christianity, Jews are

It is theologically correct that Bush says that because that is what his religion (Pentacostal, right?) believes. Also Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Taoists, agnostics, atheists, unconverted Native Americans, and various other minor/tribal belief systems are going to that Great Weber Grill Below The Earth!

This is not surprising. It is how organized religion gets and keeps converts, money, power, etc. And I don't particularly care what his opinion of where I'm going when I die is, because he doesn't know where ANYBODY is going, and it is not his place to judge, anymore than it is my place to judge.

But because he believes that and openly promotes and advances his faith, and does not see a seperation between church and state, that is one of the (many) reasons we as a populace should have SOUNDLY rejected him.

True Muslims also believe that Jews and Christians will go go heaven because Jews and Christians of people of faith, of A book if not THE book.

Maybe that Al-Qaeda #2 mod 9 guy was right and we should convert to Islam. Can we find a branch that likes bacon and Corona?

[a la izquierda]

47. I don't care about the bacon...

but I'm telling you, the no alcohol is a definite bum out. Thankfully, Catholics don't care if you drink and Buddhists don't mind either, so I'm in the clear. Lol.

[krispos42]

51. Not just bacon!

Sausage, Italian sausage, sliced ham, barbequed pork,and pepperoni as well! The tragity would be beyond comprehension. What would Iowa export? :shrug:

[a la izquierda]

72. lol...

i'm a vegetarian! lucky me!

[BenDavid]

50. Let me say here and now,

I believe bush would say something like that and believe what he said.

[Frazzled Educator]

52. Jews don't believe in Hell. How can Jews go to a place even

Jesus didn't believe existed?

[Moloch]

53. I don't see why this is news...

Many Jews think all Christians are going to hell.
Many Muslims think all Jews go to hell.
Many Christians think Muslims all go to hell.

Its part of religion.

[lolly]

54. Or, to put it another way . . .

(From an e-mail my husband forwarded to me the other day:)

Religious Truths...


During these serious times people of all faiths should remember these four
religious truths:

1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen people.

2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian
world.

4. Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters.

[Vogon_Glory]

80. Actually, The Version I'd Heard Was

(1) Members of certain evangelical sects don't recognize each other in liquor stores.

[11cents]

71. Er - no. See above.

Jews don't believe in a hell, nor do they believe that people need to practice Judaism in order to earn a favorable afterlife; therefore, it's not the case that "many Jews think all Christians are going to hell." Such a belief isn't an inalienable part of religion, just of some expressions of some religions.

[Superman Returns]

74. correction

Jews do not believe all non-Jews are going to hell. Its not apart of the religion. You can be a non-Jew and still go to heaven. Ive asked about this.

[HuffleClaw]

55. if ANY other politician had said that...

[Submariner]

57. ALL Non-Catholics are going to HELL and burn for eternity

So just get over it. That is what Sister Perpetual Agony taught me, and I'm stickin' to it. And being a Jew-for-Jesus doesn't cut it either. You're going to burn in hell too.

People and their imaginary sky-people...doncha luv it? :rofl: It would be funny if gods and religions were not the reason so many people die violently.

[lala_rawraw]

63. i am thinking that this is hell...

"this" as in, earth, now.

[alcuno]

65. ""This is Hell" is broadcast every Sat morning at 9AM Central Time

From NW University Radio, the title of the show stands for what you said. We're already in hell. It's 4 hours of terrific radio.

[lolly]

66. "Sister Perpetual Agony"

Wasn't she the headmistress at "Our Lady of Eternal Fundraising?"

[lala_rawraw]

85. which one am i?

[and-justice-for-all]

64. Use once and destroy..

[sakabatou]

68. Bush: Worst. President. Ever.

[madfloridian]

69. The head of the Southern Baptist Seminary said

Catholics are going to hell. And of course they think Jews are going there also. And anyone who does not meet their criteria is doomed to the flames of hell.

He said that about the Catholics on the Donahue show on MSNBC. He was such a sweet little boy when I taught him years ago. He recently said people should only have sex to have children, and to be childless was sinful.

I left that church 3 years ago and not looked back since except in anger.

[Joe Bacon]

77. Wow, this Orthodox Jew just feels that Christian love.

and I especially appreciate the love that emanates from Christians awaiting Armageddon, especially those who love the part in the acid trip called Revelations when all but 144,000 male virgin Jews are tossed in the lake of fire. The 144,000 then convert to Christianity, well you would too if the only alternative was the ol' brimstone bath.

Sadly, I can't get one of those 144,000 slots because I like the ladies too much :-(

[eccles12]

81. Well, is the Bible (NT) true or not? nt

[DavidDvorkin]

82. It's mythology

Any truth it contains is purely accidental.

[No Exit]

84. George W. Bush: Friend of Israel.... Enemy of Jews.

This remark sounds just like the sort of ignorant thing he might say.

(You're going to hell, George...)

[Mendocino]

86. Bush supports Israel in the same way...

that a cabin owner supports forests, they keep him warm. As Al Franken points out, on page 281 of Lying Liars, Bush supports the survival of Israel in order to fulfill the prophecy of the second coming, which will result in the deaths of all jews.