The 'Working Class'

[Stinky The Clown]

Poll question: The 'Working Class'

DU polls only allow for a maximum of ten choices. I will reserve one choice for 'Other', one choice for 'None of the above', and one for 'All of the above'. The remaining seven are job titles/descriptions.

The poll question is "Who of these is *NOT* part of the 'working class'?

It would be most interesting if you could each list some job titles that *you* see as 'working class' that others might see otherwise.

[Sparkly]

1. Based on the answers so far, I can only hope the question wasn't clear.

All these people are NOT part of the "working class?"

[demosincebirth]

4. I agree.

[demosincebirth]

2. Anyone who doesn't have calluses on his hands

[Sparkly]

3. If you don't work with your hands, you're not "working class?" nt

[demosincebirth]

9. I'm from the old school when every worker worked with his/her hands

Now, its just a figure of speech.

[IndianaGreen]

19. "The working class of the U.S. is vibrant and diverse."

We, the working people of the United States, face tremendous problems today: exploitation, oppression, racism, sexism, a deteriorating environment and infrastructure, huge budget deficits, and a government dominated by the most vicious elements of big capital and its political operatives. This government, despite its rhetoric about making Americans safe, has wasted hundreds of billions on the invasion and occupation of Iraq while it cut money for maintaining the levees—leading directly to the disaster that Hurricane Katrina wreaked on the people of New Orleans and much of the Gulf Coast. Their callous disregard for African Americans, for poor people, for the elderly, and for all those unable to evacuate on their own exemplifies their inhumane disregard for the lives of all working people.

We as a country face serious choices: militarism and imperialism or peace, increased wealth for the few or justice and equality for the many, increased power in the hands of the super-rich or expansion of democracy for the vast majority, ultra-right domination of all branches of government which deals with problems by increasing exploitation and oppression or progressive electoral coalitions that seek real solutions in the interests of all working people.

The working class and all who work for a living—the vast majority of the people—face a relentless, vicious, and amoral enemy: the capitalist class. Our country is oppressed by one of the most controlling, despicable, entrenched capitalist ruling classes ever, concentrating enormous political, economic, and military power in the hands of a few transnational corporations. These corporations seek to steal, embezzle, extort, and scheme all wealth from the tens of millions of working people, from small businesses and family farmers, from men, women, and children, from seniors and youth, and from the employed, underemployed, and unemployed. They exploit people as workers on the job and the same people as consumers at the checkout counter. Their foremost weapon to maintain their dominance is racism, used to divide working people and achieve extra profits. They work hard to extend ultra-right control over the government and government policy.

<snip>

The working class of the U.S. is vibrant and diverse. The working class constitutes the great bulk of the country’s population, and is continually growing—workers and their families are a substantial majority of the total population. The diversity of the working class includes skilled and unskilled labor, white-collar and blue-collar workers, people of all ages, organized and unorganized, employed, underemployed, and unemployed. Our working class is almost evenly composed of men and women. Most nationally and racially oppressed communities are more heavily working-class than the country as a whole, and together constitute more than 25% of the working class, a percentage that is rapidly increasing. Despite its increasing diversity, ours is a single working class, a class whose unity is growing and deepening.

The Road to Socialism USA:
Unity for Peace, Democracy, Jobs and Equality

http://www.cpusa.org/article/view/758#3

[demosincebirth]

27. No argument here

[orpupilofnature57]

5. None of the above are * NOT* part of the working class

I'm a municipal ditch digger ha ha ,and know lot's of professionals that make less and sweat more.

[mcscajun]

6. I'll take the doctor and the "principal dancer" out of "working class"

Everyone else stays.

[Sparkly]

7. Why? nt

[mcscajun]

8. The doctor is in the professional class...and the principal dancer

is an artist.

[Sparkly]

10. I think this comes down to the definition of "working class."

To me, artists and professionals work (and believe me, dancers work their asses off!!).

As I see it, anyone who works -- as opposed to those whose "money works for them" and don't need to -- is "working class."

[mcscajun]

11. That's the key...how you define it.

I think we're doing that in this post, and everyone's definition differs.

[Gormy Cuss]

39. The simplest definition of working class excludes both of those

and probably architect. Working class generally refers to wage slaves with little if any job place autonomy and often, but not always, engaged in physical labor or jobs that are defined as semi-skilled or low skilled. The doctor, for example, is salaried. The artist and architect, although currently working under conditions that are closer to working class than professionals, are highly trained and have highly specialized skills that are not viewed as physical labor.

So, a fireman has highly valued and specialized skills yet is tied to hourly wage and working in physically demanding labor, thus more working class than professional.

My viewpoint is somewhat aligned to a sociologist's definition of the demarcation.

[orpupilofnature57]

13. Wages and the fact, at an HMO both are busier than cats covered in shit ..

I believe they make the club.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Let's talk about that dancer ..........

Listen to a recent NPR report about labor issues related to dance

Washington Ballet's Labor Problems Jar Dance World

The union that represents dancers might take issue with your view:

American Guild of Musical Artists THE LABOR ORGANIZATION THAT REPRESENTS THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO CREATE AMERICA'S OPERATIC, CHORAL, AND DANCE HERITAGE (and who are affiliated with the AFL-CIO)

You may also want to talk with our dear friend, a former ballet dancer who's career ended just as it was finding its legs from a catastrophic injury. He's not been part of what he still so loves, except as an audience member, for, now, the better part of his life.

[Mass]

12. Everybody who has to work for a living! All other distinctions are linked

to the XIX century economical conditions that are totally obsolete.

[oscar111]

14. OWNERS are the only non-working class beings.

Tho many upper level employees usually come to side with the owner. Out of stupidity.

eg, CEO's are employees and thus working class. But usually side with the owner.

The fragment of word, "work", in "working class", misleads many to think only muscle work defines who is in that class.

Actually the definition is much larger.

[orpupilofnature57]

16. You mean Leaches ,Notice Management is always inventing reasons

for inventions of Management to justify their function.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Enlightened ... thank you

"The fragment of word, "work", in "working class", misleads many to think only muscle work defines who is in that class."

Very well stated.

I would also argue that not all 'owners' fall outside the working class.

I own my own company in partnership with two others. We're in business well over 15 years and in the industry as 'workers' well over 30. We have one employee. NONE of us are anything other than 'working class'. MANY 'wage earners' make a shitload more than any of us do.

[malikstein]

36. How about this definition for working class:

If you could live from clipping coupons, you are not working class. If you need a pay check to put food on your family, you are working class.

Coupon clippers could have a job, for the fun of it, but that does not make them working class.

[FILAM23]

17. All of those listed are

members of the working class.
Having a professional license (Dr)
Being in the arts (dancer)
Does not mean you are not a member of the working class.

[alvarezadams]

20. Working class = working stiffs

White collar, blue collar, red neck, professional, liberal arts - anyone that suffers from precarious employment (that can be easily fired), earns more or less chickenfeed (not able to pay for housing with the traditional 1/3 of pay), is a few weeks or months from destitution if the shit hits the fan.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Thank you. Enlightened post Number 2 in this thread

I think your definition hits the nail smack on its head.

[FILAM23]

31. When did it become 1/3

I've always heard 1/4 (as my grndmother always preached
one weeks pay for housing, on weeks pay to saving and 2
weeeks pay for all other expenses)

[Rosemary2205]

22. IMHO

I do not like the current fashion of linking everyone who works to the "working class" as if everyone in the country is in the same economic situation. IMHO it's extremely important to recognize that the working poor or near poor (traditionally called "working class") have very unique problems well beyond what professionals are likely to ever experience. And IMHO language is important to making that distinction.

My definition of "working class" is someone who week in and week out is not sure there is enough food for the whole week, or perhaps even today.

Those of us who can afford to drop $40 at Olive Garden once every few months may be only a few paychecks from bankrupcy and call ourselves "working class", but we have absolutely no concept of what it's like to ALWAYS be unsure if we will have a place to live or food for the kids day in and day out.

[mcscajun]

23. I'm with you. Not everyone who works for wages even Thinks

of themselves as "working class".

Unless we're going to draw a very rigid line between everyone who works at any job, and those who have money without working at any job, then working class cannot be all-inclusive.

Ask the man with the minimum wage job and the half-empty lunch bucket if he thinks the doctor and the dancer are "working class".

[Stinky The Clown]

26. Yes, language matters. And there is language for those you describe

It is 'working poor'. And the fact that we need to have such a term says volumes about the poor state of our country.

The term 'working poor' is rightly exclusionary. But it does not follow that the 'well employed and well compensated' are *not* part of the working lclass.

[Tikki]

24. I remember when I posted on a.....

generic board a couple years ago about how my husband was a 'hardworking American' and the
RW's went nuts...I believed they did not want to be associated with the term 'hard working'...that
Americans were, somehow, above that term.

Funny thing, though, is that any jobs that might be called 'light blue collar' have gone off-shore...
and Americans are told over and over again they are untrainable to handle those jobs.


Tikki

[alarimer]

25. If you have to work for a living, you are working class

Whatever it is that you do, if you lost that job and would suffer as a result, you are working class.

If you simply wait for your investments to pay off, you are not working class.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. It's not a well-defined term, of course.

This is why I get twitchy when I hear people talking about politics in terms of "the X class" or "the poor/rich".

I'd far rather people were actually forced to define what they mean and call for "higher taxes on those earning more than $70,000 a year" or "better health care for those in full time manual labour", rather than ambiguous shorthand that means different things to different people, and lets everyone put themselves on whichever side of the line they choose to be.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. Would that it were that easy

It simply isn't. You need only read this thread to see that.

Use the doc as an example. Let's stipulate, for the sake of this discussion, that an HMO doc is working class and that a surgeon who pickes his own cases and works at his own direction is not. (Although I can even see that as working class, but no matter here). Would a doc who works for a comapny doing employee new hire exams be working class? Would a Doc who works for a camp in the summer be working class?

Surely you can see ... there are so many variables in our increasingly complex society that there are simply no simple way to codify such issues.

Further, I really dislike the amount certain cutoffs. Is the person making $70,100 so much better off than one making $69.900?

[FILAM23]

32. I've worked with Dr's for the past 33 years

and the majority of them are hard working individuals.
To me the term working class has nothing to do with amount
of money made is how you make the money.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. That's certainly not the standard usage.

This is another reason why I think the term is worthless - if you use it like that while other people use more standard usages then they won't be able to understand you.

I much prefer well-defined terms like "earning X per year" or "without inherited money" or "semi-skilled manual labourers" instead.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

33. I think you've got it backwards.

You appear to be saying "we should be making pronouncements about society in terms of classes; measurable factors like wealth and type of work do not correspond closely to class, therefore measureable factors like wealth and type of work are not valuable."

I am saying "we should be making pronouncements about society in terms of measurable factors; the notion of "class" does not correspond accurately to any measurable factor, therefore the notion of "class" is no valuable, at least not for economists or politicians as opposed to sociologists".

I agree, there's no way to codify the notion of class; I think this proves that there is a problem with the notion of class as an economic or political concept (although it undoubtedly has sociological value), not that there is a problem with codifying.




Incidentally, your point about cutoffs illustrates what (to me, as a mathematician) is an interesting misconception; what you're missing is that cutoffs are almost invariably used for discontinuities in derivative, not for discontinuities in absolute value.

In general, a tax scheme will go "tax the first $10,000 and 5%, and the next $90,000 at 50%. Then someone making $10,100 will actually only be paying the higher tax rate on $100, so they'll barely be paying any more than someone earning $9,900.

Under no sane tax scheme will an increase in earnings across a cutoff boundary result in a decrease in the ammount you're actually left with.

[Stinky The Clown]

35. Lemme ask you a straight question .......

Parsing of minor (and pretty much contextually meaningless) details gets too far off the main point.

Here's the straight question: Can a doctor be considered working class? Can the other ringer in the poll, the dancer, be working class?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

37. I genuinely don't know, which is why I'm not a fan of the notion of class.

By UK standards, where class is an even more nebulous notion than in the US, and has a lot to do with manner of speech, attitute, cultural capital, lifestyle, etc, it's entirely possible for a doctor to be recognisably working-class, but there are very few such. But even here, it would be a very, very subjective question, with no clear right answer.

My impression is that in the US class largely refers to a) how much money you have and b) how you earn it, so that doctors who earn comparatively little, and practice mostly fairly menial, low-skilled formed of medicine *might* be termed working class by some people, but I don't know for sure, and moreover different people would probably class them differently, and neither would be able to prove that their definition was correct.

That I *can't* answer your question meaningfully, straight though it is, and that moreover no-one else can, is precisely what I've been getting at.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. It might be that you missed the point of this thread

Even deciding who is or isn't 'working' class is less the issue than saying that if we are to be the 'party of the working class' then it is in our best interest NOT to be exclusive.

Perhaps this related post of mine might help make my point clearer: Working Class Snobbery and Elitism

[jen4clark]

30. I answered wrong

I answered as if the question were "who of these IS part of the working class. Sorry. Minus one for "All of the above." Should have been "None of the above" although I did think twice about the Dr. Then I thought of my doctor after my accident (I had an HMO) and he was definitely one of the hardest working men I've ever met. Brilliant, caring and compassionate, too.